Quality Discussion Thread

[Suttree]

For a series that prided itself on being painfully meticulous about every detail, there where way to many out of left field things thrown in right at the end. Starting with the red vieled aiel (epl of TOM), then quickly going to the town in the blight AMOL prol,

Well we knew the Aiel who could channel went hunting the DO in the blight.

 

Further we got hints of the town before AMoL when we saw Ishy's fortress and the crops.

 

Shader Haran was pretty obvious. As the DO gained more access to the world he didn't need a "shadowy avatar" anymore.

[MarkDiLillo]

We had a pov from Shadar Haran thinking how he cannot wait to be free of the ties that bind him to SG.  This implies he was not just going to blowup and become a dark blob that can never enter the pattern.

[Centauri25]

I have not posted for a week or so, letting the book fester in my head. And more and more time goes by, I am frustrated by the whole series. Before the book came out, I suggested my wife read the series (she is almost done with book 2.) Now, I cannot in any good conscience ask her to read beyond book 3 or 4. There is so much buildup for no payoff. Veins of Gold, Egwene winning back the tower, Perrin makes the hammer - all awesome, amazing scenes, adequate payoff for 4-6. But the actual end of the series, payoff for 14 books, was just not there. 

 

There should have been a reason to tell this story, rather than the last turning, or the next turning. 12000 pages = status quo. The more distance I put between the finish and now, the more frustrating that becomes.

[Suttree]

We had a pov from Shadar Haran thinking how he cannot wait to be free of the ties that bind him to SG.  This implies he was not just going to blowup and become a dark blob that can never enter the pattern.

Mark, that was quite clearly the DO being frustrated by the restrictions that held him.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I have not posted for a week or so, letting the book fester in my head. And more and more time goes by, I am frustrated by the whole series. Before the book came out, I suggested my wife read the series (she is almost done with book 2.) Now, I cannot in any good conscience ask her to read beyond book 3 or 4. There is so much buildup for no payoff. Veins of Gold, Egwene winning back the tower, Perrin makes the hammer - all awesome, amazing scenes, adequate payoff for 4-6. But the actual end of the series, payoff for 14 books, was just not there. 

 

There should have been a reason to tell this story, rather than the last turning, or the next turning. 12000 pages = status quo. The more distance I put between the finish and now, the more frustrating that becomes.

 

 

I actually get what you mean but I have to disagree. The reason the books seemed so detailed and real is because they were somewhat life-like -magic and monsters aside. I think that the journey often seems exciting or important in life but the destination is kinda "oh. not what I expected at all."

[Vambram]

I have not posted for a week or so, letting the book fester in my head. And more and more time goes by, I am frustrated by the whole series. Before the book came out, I suggested my wife read the series (she is almost done with book 2.) Now, I cannot in any good conscience ask her to read beyond book 3 or 4. There is so much buildup for no payoff. Veins of Gold, Egwene winning back the tower, Perrin makes the hammer - all awesome, amazing scenes, adequate payoff for 4-6. But the actual end of the series, payoff for 14 books, was just not there. 

 

There should have been a reason to tell this story, rather than the last turning, or the next turning. 12000 pages = status quo. The more distance I put between the finish and now, the more frustrating that becomes.

 

I believe that the "payoff" for the 13 book buildup in AMOL was epic and a great story. 

There were far, far too many changes in the 14 books of WOT, and especially in AMOL for me to even think it was remotely possible that we are left with nothing more than a status quo as compared to the world before chapter 1 in EotW.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

We had a pov from Shadar Haran thinking how he cannot wait to be free of the ties that bind him to SG.  This implies he was not just going to blowup and become a dark blob that can never enter the pattern.

Mark, that was quite clearly the DO being frustrated by the restrictions that held him.

 

Yes, that's what I'm getting at.  If he was frustrated by the restrictions that held him that means he could break out....and if he could break out then why not kill Rand?  Why try to turn him?  They should have killed him from day 1.  Yet this gigantic effort was made to turn him and break him...why??  These are the big questions I feel are left unanswered that are bugging me.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

if i remember right, for the DO to win completely, didn't he have to turn Rand?

[kasheem]

@kasheem:

 

In order of strongest protection through to weakest in terms of who could die:

Mat & Tuon had sequel armor - we know that RJ was planning sequels exploring their return to Seanchan.

 

Perrin & Faile have prophecy armor - Mins vision of a crown around Perrins head, inherited through Faile means they couldn't die.

Lan (& to an extent Nyn) had Mins viewing of a baby in a cradle holding a sword, seven Towers - per RJ all her viewings refer to the future so the viewing can't relate to Lan - so Lan at the least survives to have children and restore Malkier, although the viewing doesn't seem to give them a long-term future.

 

Elayne & Avi have Mins vision of babies, Elaynes still 3 months off, although that proved 'troublesome and no actual guarantee'.

Min has been foretelled to still be there as 'he who is dead still lives' depending on interpretation of when that prophecy refers to.

 

Rand has 'he who is dead yet lives' which is a vague protection, although prior to the events could refer to a couple of different people

 

Moiraine & Thom - no visions, beyond Thom rescuing her, but it would be beyond cruel to kill her having had her be dead for the past 8 books.

 

Siuan & Gareth have a vision saying they'll die if they seperate...

 

Eg & Gawyn have visions of them living or dying depending on whether they stay together or not, but with no way of knowing which choice leads to which option...

 

 

There weren't really many main characters that could die at this point.

 

Right because with three books He couldn't possibly have made those prophecies still accurate........

 

You got me on the "sequel armor" if that is true, I didn't follow behind the scenes stuff of WoT at all.  But with three books written claiming he couldn't do much because of prophecies is a little ridiculous with how much did in fact change in those three books.  4 of the original 7 main character were bunched together so take your pick but it would have been better IMO if one had died and the others avenged it.  Say Thom got taken out by Mashadar just before Mat Could get there.  Which also would have been a subtle way to say not everyone who sought to glorfiy/record this event managed to do so.  Lan could have impregnated Nyneave at any point in the last three books and it would have made that prophecy null as far as his safety is concerned.  And many leaders were given crowns, hell Mat was essentially given multiple ones in this very book with how many ranks he jumped up during the last battle.  I don't see a place for Perrin's death though, that is why I ranted about the lack of a defined character (Egwene to me only counts for Nyneave/Rand) around him falling when there were many opportunities there.  It's not that I hate these people or enjoy death, but when there are tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands dying and it's mostly glossed over and not used on main characters to draw out that emotion.... as I said in my original statement it felt like a fan fiction taking said fan's favorite parts and over emphasising while letting things disliked go away/get killed.  I don't know Brandon or his work and I definitely don't know his opinion on what he liked/didn't.  All I know is Egwene was the most hated character and the only one to die out of the main set and one of the only ones to die out the tier groups just below that.

[Talmanes]

 

 

We had a pov from Shadar Haran thinking how he cannot wait to be free of the ties that bind him to SG.  This implies he was not just going to blowup and become a dark blob that can never enter the pattern.

Mark, that was quite clearly the DO being frustrated by the restrictions that held him.

 

Yes, that's what I'm getting at.  If he was frustrated by the restrictions that held him that means he could break out....and if he could break out then why not kill Rand?  Why try to turn him?  They should have killed him from day 1.  Yet this gigantic effort was made to turn him and break him...why??  These are the big questions I feel are left unanswered that are bugging me.

I've seen a lot of people saying this, but it is actually completely explained when Rand is facing the Dark One.

 

In Those Who Fight:

 

 

HERE IS THE TRUTH, SHAI'TAN, Rand said, taking another step forward, arms out, woven Pattern spreading around them. YOU CANNOT WIN UNLESS WE GIVE UP. THAT'S IT ISN'T IT? THIS FIGHT ISN'T ABOUT A VICTORY IN BATTLE. TAKING ME...IT WAS NEVER ABOUT BEATING ME. IT WAS ABOUT BREAKING ME.

THAT'S WHAT YOU'VE TRIED TO DO WITH ALL OF US. IT'S WHY AT TIMES YOU TRIED TO HAVE US KILLED, WHILE OTHER TIMES YOU DIDN'T SEEM TO CARE. YOU WIN WHEN YOU BREAK US. BUT YOU HAVEN'T YOU CAN'T.

[Talmanes]

I quite liked A Memory of Light, and one big thing that made it great to me was actually all of the deaths of main characters. Jordan, being the opposite of GRRM, rarely would kill of anyone even mildly important, and so actually killing off so many characters, and leaving them dead, made the whole story so much more real, and gave it a sense of finality. He wasn't just throwing characters away because it was over and he could (see Serenity, despite the fact that I loved that movie) but in my opinion he was trying to make it known how important the Last Battle was, and how high the stakes were. Refraining from killing off characters in the previous books made it that much more moving and surprising to see so many characters go in the final book.

[dazparra]

i thought this book was great, plenty of action, nearly all the characters from the series got a part and Sanderson did a good job tying up most of the loose ends.

Well done Sanderson..

my only regret is that they are saying no outrigger books... BULLSHIT, pay Sanderson more and get some outriggers going!!

 

i need more Wheel of Time!

[Trevor Wilson]

i thought this book was great, plenty of action, nearly all the characters from the series got a part and Sanderson did a good job tying up most of the loose ends.

Well done Sanderson..

my only regret is that they are saying no outrigger books... BULLSHIT, pay Sanderson more and get some outriggers going!!

 

i need more Wheel of Time!

 

I want more books as well...id love mat reclaiming seanchan lands for a start...but it just isnt going to happen, harriet has full rights.

[BFG]

 

@kasheem:

 

In order of strongest protection through to weakest in terms of who could die:

Mat & Tuon had sequel armor - we know that RJ was planning sequels exploring their return to Seanchan.

 

Perrin & Faile have prophecy armor - Mins vision of a crown around Perrins head, inherited through Faile means they couldn't die.

Lan (& to an extent Nyn) had Mins viewing of a baby in a cradle holding a sword, seven Towers - per RJ all her viewings refer to the future so the viewing can't relate to Lan - so Lan at the least survives to have children and restore Malkier, although the viewing doesn't seem to give them a long-term future.

 

Elayne & Avi have Mins vision of babies, Elaynes still 3 months off, although that proved 'troublesome and no actual guarantee'.

Min has been foretelled to still be there as 'he who is dead still lives' depending on interpretation of when that prophecy refers to.

 

Rand has 'he who is dead yet lives' which is a vague protection, although prior to the events could refer to a couple of different people

 

Moiraine & Thom - no visions, beyond Thom rescuing her, but it would be beyond cruel to kill her having had her be dead for the past 8 books.

 

Siuan & Gareth have a vision saying they'll die if they seperate...

 

Eg & Gawyn have visions of them living or dying depending on whether they stay together or not, but with no way of knowing which choice leads to which option...

 

 

There weren't really many main characters that could die at this point.

 

Right because with three books He couldn't possibly have made those prophecies still accurate........

 

You got me on the "sequel armor" if that is true, I didn't follow behind the scenes stuff of WoT at all.  But with three books written claiming he couldn't do much because of prophecies is a little ridiculous with how much did in fact change in those three books.  4 of the original 7 main character were bunched together so take your pick but it would have been better IMO if one had died and the others avenged it.  Say Thom got taken out by Mashadar just before Mat Could get there.  Which also would have been a subtle way to say not everyone who sought to glorfiy/record this event managed to do so.  Lan could have impregnated Nyneave at any point in the last three books and it would have made that prophecy null as far as his safety is concerned.  And many leaders were given crowns, hell Mat was essentially given multiple ones in this very book with how many ranks he jumped up during the last battle.  I don't see a place for Perrin's death though, that is why I ranted about the lack of a defined character (Egwene to me only counts for Nyneave/Rand) around him falling when there were many opportunities there.  It's not that I hate these people or enjoy death, but when there are tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands dying and it's mostly glossed over and not used on main characters to draw out that emotion.... as I said in my original statement it felt like a fan fiction taking said fan's favorite parts and over emphasising while letting things disliked go away/get killed.  I don't know Brandon or his work and I definitely don't know his opinion on what he liked/didn't.  All I know is Egwene was the most hated character and the only one to die out of the main set and one of the only ones to die out the tier groups just below that.

(sidenote - @Vambram, I hesitate to 'blame' anybody for this, as (I think like you) I was pretty happy with the actual ending)

 

I agree there are ways to 'nullify' the prophecy, but this was never that sort of series, it's a step on from LotR but still close enough for the main characters to be relatively 'safe'.  To be fair I didn't really put any sort of sliding scale on the above, only Mat & Tuon, Perrin & Faile, Avi and either Nyn or Lan were ever really safe, and before reading the book I'd have put Elayne with them as well (the book finally showed the problem with that sort of thinking).  But regardless of fan favorites, Eg was always the most likely to die as she's the only one (main character) with visions/dreams that directly end in her death, and possibly Rand - although most theories had him dying and 'coming back' somehow.

 

I don't really know who wrote what, but it's been fairly publicised that RJ wrote the majority of the Epilogue (BS added Cads pov (I think) and it's also possible that he added the Rand pov section that saw her to tie it in).  That means that every pov we see, the characters mentioned as dead or alive are by RJs design, not down to BS, this doesn't change the events or who died, so may not make you feel any better, but this is one thing that definatively isn't BS's fault (compared to execution, prose, structure... which regardless of whether you think it's a fault or not is BS's responsibility).

[kasheem]

 

 

@kasheem:

 

In order of strongest protection through to weakest in terms of who could die:

Mat & Tuon had sequel armor - we know that RJ was planning sequels exploring their return to Seanchan.

 

Perrin & Faile have prophecy armor - Mins vision of a crown around Perrins head, inherited through Faile means they couldn't die.

Lan (& to an extent Nyn) had Mins viewing of a baby in a cradle holding a sword, seven Towers - per RJ all her viewings refer to the future so the viewing can't relate to Lan - so Lan at the least survives to have children and restore Malkier, although the viewing doesn't seem to give them a long-term future.

 

Elayne & Avi have Mins vision of babies, Elaynes still 3 months off, although that proved 'troublesome and no actual guarantee'.

Min has been foretelled to still be there as 'he who is dead still lives' depending on interpretation of when that prophecy refers to.

 

Rand has 'he who is dead yet lives' which is a vague protection, although prior to the events could refer to a couple of different people

 

Moiraine & Thom - no visions, beyond Thom rescuing her, but it would be beyond cruel to kill her having had her be dead for the past 8 books.

 

Siuan & Gareth have a vision saying they'll die if they seperate...

 

Eg & Gawyn have visions of them living or dying depending on whether they stay together or not, but with no way of knowing which choice leads to which option...

 

 

There weren't really many main characters that could die at this point.

 

Right because with three books He couldn't possibly have made those prophecies still accurate........

 

You got me on the "sequel armor" if that is true, I didn't follow behind the scenes stuff of WoT at all.  But with three books written claiming he couldn't do much because of prophecies is a little ridiculous with how much did in fact change in those three books.  4 of the original 7 main character were bunched together so take your pick but it would have been better IMO if one had died and the others avenged it.  Say Thom got taken out by Mashadar just before Mat Could get there.  Which also would have been a subtle way to say not everyone who sought to glorfiy/record this event managed to do so.  Lan could have impregnated Nyneave at any point in the last three books and it would have made that prophecy null as far as his safety is concerned.  And many leaders were given crowns, hell Mat was essentially given multiple ones in this very book with how many ranks he jumped up during the last battle.  I don't see a place for Perrin's death though, that is why I ranted about the lack of a defined character (Egwene to me only counts for Nyneave/Rand) around him falling when there were many opportunities there.  It's not that I hate these people or enjoy death, but when there are tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands dying and it's mostly glossed over and not used on main characters to draw out that emotion.... as I said in my original statement it felt like a fan fiction taking said fan's favorite parts and over emphasising while letting things disliked go away/get killed.  I don't know Brandon or his work and I definitely don't know his opinion on what he liked/didn't.  All I know is Egwene was the most hated character and the only one to die out of the main set and one of the only ones to die out the tier groups just below that.

(sidenote - @Vambram, I hesitate to 'blame' anybody for this, as (I think like you) I was pretty happy with the actual ending)

 

I agree there are ways to 'nullify' the prophecy, but this was never that sort of series, it's a step on from LotR but still close enough for the main characters to be relatively 'safe'.  To be fair I didn't really put any sort of sliding scale on the above, only Mat & Tuon, Perrin & Faile, Avi and either Nyn or Lan were ever really safe, and before reading the book I'd have put Elayne with them as well (the book finally showed the problem with that sort of thinking).  But regardless of fan favorites, Eg was always the most likely to die as she's the only one (main character) with visions/dreams that directly end in her death, and possibly Rand - although most theories had him dying and 'coming back' somehow.

 

I don't really know who wrote what, but it's been fairly publicised that RJ wrote the majority of the Epilogue (BS added Cads pov (I think) and it's also possible that he added the Rand pov section that saw her to tie it in).  That means that every pov we see, the characters mentioned as dead or alive are by RJs design, not down to BS, this doesn't change the events or who died, so may not make you feel any better, but this is one thing that definatively isn't BS's fault (compared to execution, prose, structure... which regardless of whether you think it's a fault or not is BS's responsibility).

Thank you for that thought, I hadn't looked at it in that way.  While I still personally believe (I am a bit paranoid after all) that the ending being changed to having one or two more dead wouldn't have destroyed RJ's story and probably was a valid possibility he left behind.  I will still continue thinking Brandon chose to not kill at least one more of the Emond's field 7, but I no longer hate the fact they didn't so thanks.

[BFG]

 

 

 

@kasheem:

 

In order of strongest protection through to weakest in terms of who could die:

Mat & Tuon had sequel armor - we know that RJ was planning sequels exploring their return to Seanchan.

 

Perrin & Faile have prophecy armor - Mins vision of a crown around Perrins head, inherited through Faile means they couldn't die.

Lan (& to an extent Nyn) had Mins viewing of a baby in a cradle holding a sword, seven Towers - per RJ all her viewings refer to the future so the viewing can't relate to Lan - so Lan at the least survives to have children and restore Malkier, although the viewing doesn't seem to give them a long-term future.

 

Elayne & Avi have Mins vision of babies, Elaynes still 3 months off, although that proved 'troublesome and no actual guarantee'.

Min has been foretelled to still be there as 'he who is dead still lives' depending on interpretation of when that prophecy refers to.

 

Rand has 'he who is dead yet lives' which is a vague protection, although prior to the events could refer to a couple of different people

 

Moiraine & Thom - no visions, beyond Thom rescuing her, but it would be beyond cruel to kill her having had her be dead for the past 8 books.

 

Siuan & Gareth have a vision saying they'll die if they seperate...

 

Eg & Gawyn have visions of them living or dying depending on whether they stay together or not, but with no way of knowing which choice leads to which option...

 

 

There weren't really many main characters that could die at this point.

 

Right because with three books He couldn't possibly have made those prophecies still accurate........

 

You got me on the "sequel armor" if that is true, I didn't follow behind the scenes stuff of WoT at all.  But with three books written claiming he couldn't do much because of prophecies is a little ridiculous with how much did in fact change in those three books.  4 of the original 7 main character were bunched together so take your pick but it would have been better IMO if one had died and the others avenged it.  Say Thom got taken out by Mashadar just before Mat Could get there.  Which also would have been a subtle way to say not everyone who sought to glorfiy/record this event managed to do so.  Lan could have impregnated Nyneave at any point in the last three books and it would have made that prophecy null as far as his safety is concerned.  And many leaders were given crowns, hell Mat was essentially given multiple ones in this very book with how many ranks he jumped up during the last battle.  I don't see a place for Perrin's death though, that is why I ranted about the lack of a defined character (Egwene to me only counts for Nyneave/Rand) around him falling when there were many opportunities there.  It's not that I hate these people or enjoy death, but when there are tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands dying and it's mostly glossed over and not used on main characters to draw out that emotion.... as I said in my original statement it felt like a fan fiction taking said fan's favorite parts and over emphasising while letting things disliked go away/get killed.  I don't know Brandon or his work and I definitely don't know his opinion on what he liked/didn't.  All I know is Egwene was the most hated character and the only one to die out of the main set and one of the only ones to die out the tier groups just below that.

(sidenote - @Vambram, I hesitate to 'blame' anybody for this, as (I think like you) I was pretty happy with the actual ending)

 

I agree there are ways to 'nullify' the prophecy, but this was never that sort of series, it's a step on from LotR but still close enough for the main characters to be relatively 'safe'.  To be fair I didn't really put any sort of sliding scale on the above, only Mat & Tuon, Perrin & Faile, Avi and either Nyn or Lan were ever really safe, and before reading the book I'd have put Elayne with them as well (the book finally showed the problem with that sort of thinking).  But regardless of fan favorites, Eg was always the most likely to die as she's the only one (main character) with visions/dreams that directly end in her death, and possibly Rand - although most theories had him dying and 'coming back' somehow.

 

I don't really know who wrote what, but it's been fairly publicised that RJ wrote the majority of the Epilogue (BS added Cads pov (I think) and it's also possible that he added the Rand pov section that saw her to tie it in).  That means that every pov we see, the characters mentioned as dead or alive are by RJs design, not down to BS, this doesn't change the events or who died, so may not make you feel any better, but this is one thing that definatively isn't BS's fault (compared to execution, prose, structure... which regardless of whether you think it's a fault or not is BS's responsibility).

Thank you for that thought, I hadn't looked at it in that way.  While I still personally believe (I am a bit paranoid after all) that the ending being changed to having one or two more dead wouldn't have destroyed RJ's story and probably was a valid possibility he left behind.  I will still continue thinking Brandon chose to not kill at least one more of the Emond's field 7, but I no longer hate the fact they didn't so thanks.

 

No worries and nothing wrong with a healthy dose of paranoia:) 

 

What did you think of the Mellor/Elayne arc?  For me it was one of the darkest moments in the series, the only other things I can think of are when Eg got collared in Falme, and Rand while collared almost killed Min, but the concepts seem different (not sure of the words).  So in trying to work out if it's a BS addition or not (not meant as an insult, I enjoyed Perrins arc in Towers, Nyns testing and Avis trip to Rhuidean - all of which are ideas and additions attributed to BS) I'm struggling.  The arc seems 'modern' in idea (perhaps recently topical is closer to what I mean, with the ongoing debate over abortion...), while slavery is 'old' (or at least rarely reported in the newspapers).  But I'm not sure if it's just the execution of the writing that's thrown me, as the 'Elayne is safe until her babies are born' has been developed since KoD and really pushed in ToM (but how much of that was BS to fit in with the eventual ending?)  Either way I like the idea, it just threw me coming from WoT a little, would be interested in other peoples take on it.

[KakitaOCU]

Mark, as someone else said, it's all about making humanity give up.  For the DO to have true victory that's what he needs.  Chances are he's won and set up worlds like the first one he shows Rand.  Eventually those worlds crumble I'd guess.

 

Turning Rand would not be an issue of crippling the world because he has Rand, it's the hope that crushing and turning Rand will cause despair in humanity.

 

Not to compare the two, but look at the end of Harry Potter. 

 

*Spoilers**

 

Voldemort "Kills" Harry and trumpets it to the good guys.  Who respond by saying "Don't care, we'll win anyway!" and the fight continues.  Killing Rand outright would have lead to something similar.  Who knows what would have happened, but it wouldn't have been a promised victory for the DO.

[MarkDiLillo]

Mark, as someone else said, it's all about making humanity give up.  For the DO to have true victory that's what he needs.  Chances are he's won and set up worlds like the first one he shows Rand.  Eventually those worlds crumble I'd guess.

 

Turning Rand would not be an issue of crippling the world because he has Rand, it's the hope that crushing and turning Rand will cause despair in humanity.

 

Not to compare the two, but look at the end of Harry Potter. 

 

*Spoilers**

 

Voldemort "Kills" Harry and trumpets it to the good guys.  Who respond by saying "Don't care, we'll win anyway!" and the fight continues.  Killing Rand outright would have lead to something similar.  Who knows what would have happened, but it wouldn't have been a promised victory for the DO.

 

But the only way for the DO to "lose" is for Rand to come in and seal him up.  Any way you look at it, taking Rand out of the picture early seems to be better for the DO.  He can dominate the world and smash hope from everyone.  What possible advantage does letting Rand live provide given the chance that he can seal the DO up?

 

It's absurd really.

[kasheem]

I went back and finally read about 15 pages of the comments on here.  A lot of talk about the lack of subtlety or style of writing Brandon took was being discussed there.  Just wanted to throw out one part that really stuck out to me as brilliant (unless I simply read into it).  Early on in the book there was somewhere where Rand was remembering past lives and thought about his relationship with Demandred.  How he thought of him as a rival due to his need in that life to do everything for everyone by himself.  IDK if this was the intention, but at least when I was reading that it perked my ears up and made me think that sounded a lot like an inference that the same road was almost taken in the Rand al'Thor lfietime with Mat/Perrin.  Mat's self deprication and Perrin's enormous humility (along with neither being channelers, so maybe more so Logain/Taim) would have prevented it from going about so.  Anyway, for all the lack of subtlety everyone is saying Sanderson had there was a few bright spots and that was one to me.

[Ninkharsag]

I was just speculating on all the things that so many long time fans are unhappy about in this book.  While many people are happy to have an ending it was not what many wanted.  I feel that the length of time it took to get to the end of the series really hurt the ending.  The real world has changed a lot in twenty years and so has what people expect from their novels. 

 

I think it may have been impossible for anyone, to close now, what was started twenty three years ago.  What would have been a great epic was spread out longer and became to expansive to ever be concluded well.  People had to keep discovering things and becoming more powerful as we went along, and at the end it was all pretty overworked and watered down.

 

Twenty years ago the populace was not as well informed as we are today.  I am not saying people were dumber, just information was not as easily accessible.  We are in a society where everything is fact checked and researchable in minutes with the internet.  What was a time when people were more willing to just accept something for what it presents itself to be, has become a time when people have to have plausibility and believability that their fictional world should be subject to the limitations of battle and men created within that world.  When I look for a series today I have higher expectations for a world that should remain plausible within the parameters the world it is created in.  Books, and popular series, are debated and picked over for continuity of concept and mistakes by series fanatics....like many of us on these boards.

 

Point being we are not the same fans that fell in love with the series twenty years ago.  It took too long, time changed, people have changed, and the WoT world got too big and watered down by its own progression of a book about unique characters on a quest against evil into a world of dirty politics with magic so large that our characters were no longer unique or irreplaceable.  It lost its way.  And nothing was going to bring it to a close like we expected. The latter half of the series had too little of the start of the series to make it possible.

[Aposar01]

This is my first post, though i have followed many of the FAQ's and threads on this site for a long time. I want to say that I have read and reread every book in the series, and I love it to death. I am, however, massively disappointed in the final books (most especially with AMOL). I will not flame Brandon Sanderson for (in my opinion) being the completely wrong author to attempt to complete Robert Jordans series. I will, however, relate my immediate reaction to reading the final books. I remember reading EoTW, and having CHILLS while Moiraine recounted the tale of the March of the Men of Mantheran. I remember the UNBELIEVABLY epic description of the Sounding of the Horn in the Great Hunt, and the masterfully written journey back in time, seeing the fall of the Aiel through Rand's ancestors. I remember my heart POUNDING as i read mat talk to the troops during the battle with the Aiel outside Cairhien, as Rand tells Taim "Break them" at Dumai's Wells and all the other moments in this amazing story that make it worth the hours and hours spent reading them. There was (in my opinion) NONE of this in AMOL. NONE. I felt that Brandon Sanderson was just woefully unable to achieve what i can only imagine (if written by Robert Jordan) would have been an ENTIRE NOVEL of epic, pulse pounding, awesome, poignant moments. I am glad there is an end, but i WISH so much that it would have been the end it should have been.

[Talmanes]

i thought this book was great, plenty of action, nearly all the characters from the series got a part and Sanderson did a good job tying up most of the loose ends.

Well done Sanderson..

my only regret is that they are saying no outrigger books... BULLSHIT, pay Sanderson more and get some outriggers going!!

 

i need more Wheel of Time!

It's really not about the money, BS just isn't likely to want to be looked at only as RJ's shadow. He is a successful author on his own and also has a lot of his own stuff to write. I would certainly read any more WoT books he does though lol.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

 

 

What makes you say Egwene couldn't pull off that weave from the stone even with an item of power like Vora's wand? She is certainly dexterous enough and we have seen her split weaves impressively.

 

You're right to call this out.  I'm assuming that Egwene's rage strength + her natural amazing channelling skill + Vora's wand + miraculous new weave insight could never add up to the kind of thing Rand made in the Stone.  But here's why I feel good about that assumption.  It's canon that women are never as more powerful as men at channelling.

 

 

No, it's canon that they are on average weaker.

> Egwene doesn't have any AOL memories or ta'veren-ness giving her a weave like the construct or the filaments of fire Rand used at the manor attack (which I thought was well executed by Brandon and an interesting contrast to what we see in AMOL).

So? We've seen plenty of innovations made by characters without the benefit of AoL memories, or ta'veren. Look at Nynaeve, performing an act (Healing severing) that was not possible in the AoL.

> Vora's wand is not Callandor and likely doesn't even come close since it presumably works only for saidar and has at least one flaw.

A flaw which, if anything, increases strength - it lacks the buffer that prevents one from overdrawing. It being for saidar says nothing about its strength.

 

Take my re-telling...

Ghastly. Simply ghastly. I, for one, am grateful that we got the ending we did rather than your abomination. 

(or unrelated to the OP like the Crystal Throne, but I've even read some who think that the Throne is a ter'angreal

They don't think it, they know it - it has been clearly stated to be a ter'angreal.

But somehow the crystal Egwene makes has the qualities of cuendillar (Logain can't get to the sa'angreal - WTF as if we haven't been led to think Logain wouldn't be the type to be so power hungry).

Logain's power hunger was clearly a reaction to his torture earlier in the book. He was made weak, and so desired to never be weak again. It was made very clear by the text, we were hit around the head with it. Yes, it was out of character - because the Logain we normally know is not post-traumatic. And you completely miss the point of the baleice - it has a property that cuendillar doesn't. It was a weave she created to undo the damage balefire was doing to the Pattern. Your retelling doesn't address that problem, you just have Taim tossing around massive quantities of balefire, with nothing being done about the Pattern unravelling around him because of it. That a weave could do that, while not something we've seen before, is not out of line with how the world works. So your problem is that it manifested as crystal. Of all the things to be bothered about, this is one of the silliest, and it has some bloody stiff competition. How would you like it to manifest?

 

 

 

I'm going to try to respond to the substance of your reply and not address your tone aside from a comment that I don't understand the need for it in what should be a friendly discussion between fans.  Your reply, aside from a general criticism at my lack of precision and overlooking certain "clearly stated" elements of the canon with respect to fairly obscure details, appears to focus chiefly on my admittedly amateur (and off-the-cuff) re-telling and my issues with the crystal.  I grant that I'm not WoT expert (or a professional or talented creative writer), but I don't purport to be and I'm not sure that it's productive for your argument to try to undermine my post by calling attention to that.

 

As to your reply to my criticism of Logain:  I'm taking issue with the decision by any or all of Team Jordan to allow Androl to take the role that I believe Logain should have played.  As any reader would, I understand that Logain's botched Turning has some effect on his personality.  It'd be extraordinarily difficult to miss that given what we're told up front in the story.

 

 

And yet your statement says the reverse - that you thought it was out of character for Logain, a feeling you expressed with a "WTF". Surely there would be no need for that if you really did understand that Logain's out of character actions were explained? And also, what you said had nothing to do with Androl. It was in the middle of a passage about Egwene and crystal. You didn't mention Androl at all in that post. And Androl didn't take over Logain's role in the story - all the things he did were, by Brandon's admission, things that were in the notes but not attached to a specific character to do.

I actually think that's an interesting device and that it was well executed as a general matter; it was interesting to see Turnings and I appreciated the storyteller's details about a strong-willed person's response to them.  My issue goes deeper than that:  why did the storyteller choose to apply that device in connection with Logain when we've been led to expect Logain to be a pivotal character in the events surrounding the Last Battle?  You seem to take my issue as a lack of understanding as to the mechanics of a botched Turning or that Logain's change in personality in itself is out-of-character, but I'm not arguing either point.  More precisely, my issue is as I stated:  it fits awkwardly with the series to tell Logain's story this way.  What's the point of telling us all of this about Logain throughout the entire series if his role at the Last Battle is minor at best and his prospects for glory are clouded by our impression that he's turned into a monster?

And yet he does get his glory, underplayed though it might be - and he gets it through turning away from that power he craved in order to help people. In other words, we see him attain glory in a way that proves he has not become a monster.

And as to your reply to my criticism of the so-called baleice (which I agree is an apt way to characterize it to capture its core symbolic value, i.e. a balance to balefire):  You're right to identify that my issue is the crystal, but my argument is more nuanced than that.  I wouldn't have a problem with the use of crystal as the symbol if we had seen crystal used similarly throughout the series.  We haven't.  We've seen it used as a symbol of other things, namely the glory of the AOL and the power of enlightened cooperation.  I would like (and have been actively led to expect) that the resolution to Taim's balefiring would manifest in accordance with the symbolic palette I'm used to from the rest of the story.  I pointed to cuendillar as the device to apply to heal the pattern because it appears to hit the same symbolic chord as the storyteller(s) chose to hit in introducing crystal.  My argument is that a bale-off between Egwene and Taim falls short because it fails to unite and celebrate the symbols that make up this entire story.  While on a high level of generality, it's possible to interpret the bale-off as going to the grand theme of balance - of course, it does - there seem to be so many other ways to tell the Egwene vs. Taim story that thread together all of the symbols and foreshadowings associated with saidin vs. saidar, White Tower vs. Black Tower, cuendillar vs. balefire, Logain vs. Taim.  Instead, we're missing all of that depth.  In its place, we get a new symbol, or at least a familiar object used in a different symbolic way, that, frankly, is a go-to in fantasy storytelling.  I don't think it works, and I think pointing that out in connection with the demise of one of the core characters (and one prominent secondary character) and one of the most important points in the story in no way can seriously be characterized as silly.  I'm criticizing the use of symbols during one of the most pivotal points in the entire series, not calling out Min for a fashion no-no.

You're criticising the use of symbols that the story has never cared about. Crystal has never been symbolic of anything in the series, it's just something that exists. So the use of crystal cannot be considered inconsistent with the symbolism of crystal before. Cuendillar wouldn't make sense because it has never been shown or implied to have the Pattern restoring properties necessary. So, it has to be a new weave. And if it is a new weave, why not crystal? It is not inappropriate.

Thanks for your reply, but let's try to keep this discussion civil and respectful.  I came here to express my criticisms to people who would know what I'm talking about because none of my friends in real life have any idea what WOT is.  Your tone doesn't contribute productively to this community or our conversation, but it goes far to turn people off from chiming in.  I'm not sure that's the point of these discussion boards.

People can read whatever they like into my tone.

 

Getting pwned by Mr Ares is pretty much an initiation of sorts around here.

...And is now in my About Me section. I'd hate to think that people didn't have fair warning.

 

So now that our favorite series ended in a train wreck, it's time to move on:

 

Who has some good suggestions for a next series??  I'll stab anyone that suggest Brandon Sanderson.

Michael Swanwick: The Iron Dragon's Daughter. Anything by Steph Swainston or China Mieville.

 

Egwene coming up with anti-balefire,she has just lost her warder and is in a fight for her life yet magically comes up with the perfect weave.Talk about a Deus ex-machina.RJ cleverly used Lews Therin as the reason Rand could do this type of thing but other characters didn't have this knowledge.Nyneave for example healed stilling only after numerous sessions with Logain where she spent hours probing at the problem.

Actually, fans are rather more likely to ascribe things to being due to LTT than RJ ever was - the first clear sign of LTT is in TSR. Nothing before that has support for being due to LTT. And Nynaeve also developed a new form of Healing before she knew she could channel.

 

@Mr Ares - I'm afraid your post was about 5 pages ago, so I'm not responding directly, but I believe the gist of your point was that RJ stated that it wouldn't work structurally as more than 1 book. 

 

If you take VoG as a chronological moment, then their are several arcs that have similar themes that all conclude roughly chronologically: namely Rands, Egs & Perrins.  It should be possible to have woven all those together (and possibly some of the BT stuff, ending with Rands messenger telling them they're not weapons).  So this seems a natural story break pont that could be used to either split the story or end the first half, depending on how you want to look at it.  For your second half that leaves you with Tower/Messana stuff, BT stuff, Elayne stuff, the ToG, FoM, Seanchan stuff & TG.  So you have Tower/Messana, BT, Elayne stuff running sequentially as it's not really about a power struggle as consolidating power, preperation...  You have ToG and FoM running together, as without knowing (for sure) that Moiraine has been rescued it adds tension to the possibility that the talks will break down.  You then get TG (with Seanchan woven through with the 4 battlefronts) and the Epilogue.

 

The problem is that even ignoring some of the stuff that RJ may have skipped their are still an awful lot of plot points and character arcs (particularly Rands) to 'get through', and I don't think RJ could have done it in 'one book' without losing much of the style that people are reading the books for in the first place (the (little) leeway BS is given on this wouldn't be given to RJ).  I'm not a lit expert and so I'm not entirely sure what is classically considered to be good structure, but it seems to include overarching themes that relate different character arcs together.  I tend to view things somewhat cinematically, so you start building things up and then have a big *whatever* at the end, which is why VoG works so well as a 'break' point.  Additionally it seems to me that the problem with the 'middle' of a series is that it tends to be the point at which all the characters are furthest apart, so you're telling all of their stories, compared to the beginning and end when they're all together.  But at the end of KoD they're all still apart from each other, so you're still starting with as many storylines that need to be told as their were in the middle sections.

 

Structurally however I'm not sure what the difference is in 2 books released as 2 books or 1 book released in 2 sections (other than only 1 prologue/epilogue).  If anyone would care to enlighten me?  Would be much appreciated (or indeed if my understanding of structure is all wrong then let me know before I make a bigger fool of myself). 

Well, a story has a beginning, middle and end. The early books, for all they had ongoing elements, each had an individual structure, and the plot of that book came to an end at the end of it. TGS had that. ToM and AMoL didn't. Because so much of the set up was done already, AMoL was basically just the ending. So we have hundreds of pages spent on the Last Battle, because there was nowhere else left for the plot to go. ToM had elements that clearly belonged in TGS, such as Perrin's visit to Dragonmount, Tam joining with Rand and Graendal's survival. But, take Perrin as an example - that doesn't represent a climax for him. His story would need to go on further, after VoG, in order to find the right stopping point. When the narratives were all spread out, it mattered rather less if a good stopping point for one didn't match up with one for another, as they often didn't immediately impact on one another. When the plotlines had to start coming together, though, we were left with things needing to be part of one book but being put in a different one. One book released in two volumes is more akin to one story with a break, like an intermission for a play or long film, or the cliff hanger before the next part's resolution. If more had been put into TGS, then VoG had been treated as a convenient stopping point, a pause rather than a conclusion to an arc, then volume two could have taken the story to its conclusion. As it is, it feels a bit like to give TGS its strength, they had to weaken the other books.

 

But the only way for the DO to "lose" is for Rand to come in and seal him up.  Any way you look at it, taking Rand out of the picture early seems to be better for the DO.  He can dominate the world and smash hope from everyone.  What possible advantage does letting Rand live provide given the chance that he can seal the DO up?

What if Rand turned against the world? Couldn't that be used to help break it - both his power as a channeler, and the fact that the Light's supposed saviour is now their enemy would be powerful assets.

[Suttree]

 

 

i thought this book was great, plenty of action, nearly all the characters from the series got a part and Sanderson did a good job tying up most of the loose ends.

Well done Sanderson..

my only regret is that they are saying no outrigger books... BULLSHIT, pay Sanderson more and get some outriggers going!!

 

i need more Wheel of Time!

It's really not about the money, BS just isn't likely to want to be looked at only as RJ's shadow. He is a successful author on his own and also has a lot of his own stuff to write. I would certainly read any more WoT books he does though lol.

It certainly isn't about the money. It's has everything to do with RJs wishes and lack of source material. For what it's worth Brandon did say he would write them if that was the decision made..(although that was before Harriet said no)

[rane008]

Anyone else feel that the flaw in Vora's s'angreal was a convenient invention?  I mean, we never heard about this before and almost all angreal have that buffer standard. Really it seemed like Brandon saying, "Oh yeah, Eg's gotta die, better make something up!"