Quality Discussion Thread

[Bornhald]

What do you all think of Elayne's speech? I'm hesitant to judge the quality of these books; I took a break from WoT after KoD, and only read tGS, ToM and aMoL very recently, so I have trouble remembering characters before Brandon Sanderson got involved (except for Mat. I liked the speech, however, if RJ's Elayne was still fresh in my mind, I don't know how I'd feel about it. The idea that the Light wouldn't just be victorious, that the Light's armies would have to make it so, was pretty awesome. At first I didn't like the "our blood" parts of it, but after re-reading the speech, they resonated with me more.

 

Also, what is up with Mat? Am I remembering him wrong, or did Sanderson go way overboard with his humour? It seems like almost every reaction Mat has comes with lines and lines of thinking or saying something funny. I remember him being more balanced.

[MarkDiLillo]

Given the amount of story arcs and plot points that were unersolved, forgotten, or very hastily wrapped up...I think 3 books is a fine number if the space had been used better.

[sleepinghour]

I don't buy the cash cow argument. The Jordan estate has all the money it could ever need, and then some. I don't believe for a second Harriet had anything but the best legacy of her husband's work in mind.

 

It's not a matter of greed; Tor gave RJ advance money for several books to help pay for his medical costs. AMoL being split in three repaid some of that advance money. If RJ had lived, the advance money would have been repaid through the other two prequels and Outriggers.

[jjstraka34]

What do you all think of Elayne's speech? I'm hesitant to judge the quality of these books; I took a break from WoT after KoD, and only read tGS, ToM and aMoL very recently, so I have trouble remembering characters before Brandon Sanderson got involved (except for Mat. I liked the speech, however, if RJ's Elayne was still fresh in my mind, I don't know how I'd feel about it. The idea that the Light wouldn't just be victorious, that the Light's armies would have to make it so, was pretty awesome. At first I didn't like the "our blood" parts of it, but after re-reading the speech, they resonated with me more.

 

Also, what is up with Mat? Am I remembering him wrong, or did Sanderson go way overboard with his humour? It seems like almost every reaction Mat has comes with lines and lines of thinking or saying something funny. I remember him being more balanced.

 

To answer your question, Elayne was always a awful character, and Sanderson did her no favors. In regards to Mat, yes he went WAY overboard with him (the most infamous example being the note he wrote to Elayne, even if it was genuinely funny). But I can buy Mat being a little more over the top, if anyone. It's the interaction between the characters that is the problem, and their ability to know things they have no business knowing simply to advance the plot. 

[jjstraka34]

 

It's not a matter of greed; Tor gave RJ advance money for several books to help pay for his medical costs. AMoL being split in three repaid some of that advance money. If RJ had lived, the advance money would have been repaid through the other two prequels and Outriggers.

 

That's a real shock to me, I would never for a second would have thought they would have had that much of a financial hardship after 20 years of bestselling novels and tie-ins. 

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

It's not a matter of greed; Tor gave RJ advance money for several books to help pay for his medical costs. AMoL being split in three repaid some of that advance money. If RJ had lived, the advance money would have been repaid through the other two prequels and Outriggers.

 

That's a real shock to me, I would never for a second would have thought they would have had that much of a financial hardship after 20 years of bestselling novels and tie-ins. 

 

RJ only wrote one book every several years.  I suspect he lived very comfortably, but if you're an author and your goal is to make money you have to write a lot of books.  A lot of times it's the "trash" authors out there that make the most money because they released a book a year or a couple books a year.  RJ only wrote 11 books over approximately 20 years.  He chose quality over quantity and that is why so many of us are such die hard fans and are so upset with how this last book turned out.

 

Of course the other way to make big money is to have your books adopted into feature films like Harry Potter.

[jjstraka34]

I'm actually a person who is in favor of a expanded universe down the line. Certainly not on a Star Wars/Star Trek level, but I'd be more than happy with stuff that was interesting and in good taste. Highly, highly doubt we will ever see it though. Place the chance at less than 15%.

[MarkDiLillo]

As much as I despise what Sanderson did to this series, I wouldn't have a problem with an expanded series down the line operating in the WoT world.  As long as the original characters were left alone.  This means no Mat outrigger novels.  Let the original characters stay the way RJ left them, and write an entirely other series in the WoT world.  If the new series was written by another author it wouldn't undermine the primary WoT series in any way shape or form.

 

I will say that I am highly against Brandon Sanderson writing any new WoT material though.  He mangled this opportunity so badly that I don't believe he deserves a chance to continue anything in the WoT world.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I wouldn't mind a series based around Bao the Wyld and his mysterious adventures in Shara. The topics would be untouched enough that it wouldn't interfere with any of the main characters or change the places and people we know so much. 

[Suttree]

I wouldn't mind a series based around Bao the Wyld and his mysterious adventures in Shara. The topics would be untouched enough that it wouldn't interfere with any of the main characters or change the places and people we know so much. 

I get it and it could be a cool story. My problem is we know how much against any "shared world" environment RJ was. The notes were not that robust for AMoL and they are far less so for any outrigger type materials. Jordan was the Creator and we need to respect his wishes here.

[Mr. Micawber]

Jordan had an extraordinarily rare disease that has only extremely expensive treatments. Of course, he developed the disease because of his exposure to Agent Orange during his time in Vietnam, so it's a little ridiculous the US government didn't pay for his treatment. But then we've been terrible about helping Vietnam vets since day 1, and we didn't even acknowledge Agent Orange exposure causes massive problems until like late 80s or even the 90s. So, unlike most people, I don't begrudge him any "cash cowing"that might have happened.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

I wouldn't mind a series based around Bao the Wyld and his mysterious adventures in Shara. The topics would be untouched enough that it wouldn't interfere with any of the main characters or change the places and people we know so much. 

I get it and it could be a cool story. My problem is we know how much against any "shared world" environment RJ was. The notes were not that robust for AMoL and they are far less so for any outrigger type materials. Jordan was the Creator and we need to respect his wishes here.

 

Oh no doubt. To be clear, I wasn't saying that this is possible, nor do I believe it will happen. 

 

I totally agree with you. It took a terminal illness and approaching death - and I mean no disrespect here, if anyone feels so, I shall remove it- for him to change his mind about someone else finishing the Wheel of Time. 

 

That, along with Harriet's insistence that there be no more material from the WoT world says enough about the likely hood of it ever happening. 

 

I was just saying that this is one of the only stories I would accept (that sounds too arrogant, but I can't think of a better word) being written by another author. It is one of the few things that has enough notes not to be a complete rip off of the WoT while at the same time little enough detail that it wouldn't change the world of the Wheel too much. 

[Treebeard]

excuse me but what in the problem with the publishing function ?

[Treebeard]

Jordan had an extraordinarily rare disease that has only extremely expensive treatments. Of course, he developed the disease because of his exposure to Agent Orange during his time in Vietnam, so it's a little ridiculous the US government didn't pay for his treatment. But then we've been terrible about helping Vietnam vets since day 1, and we didn't even acknowledge Agent Orange exposure causes massive problems until like late 80s or even the 90s. So, unlike most people, I don't begrudge him any "cash cowing"that might have happened.

What , that is just weird. The reason that BS book was bad  was that they contend to much nonsense and filler (among other things if have understood things right (?))  - this happened because there are to many books - this in turn is because X decided to make more books ( agienst the advice from the author ) because X wanted more money ( that´s and objective statement in this line of thought as there otherwise was no need for more books ) = milk cow. Then it´s is weird to say that " no i dont care if it was a milk cow "

 

ps .if i read Bel Barids comment right (?) we should not discus this thing more so this i my last word for now in this debate  - Hypocrisy

[lilltempest]

Rand felt like a devolution to 'Fires of heaven' Rand, what with his bickering with Egwene etc

 

Regarding the scene with Rand and Egwene...

 

I think this was a no-win situation, really. Egwene had to be contrary - that's who she is and how she has always been with Rand - and Moiraine had to "save the day" by making Egwene see that the seals really did have to be broken. If he had written it where Rand was calm, Egwene would have looked a fool alone (instead of both of them looking like bickering children) and people would've complained that he had made Rand look good by making Egwene look bad (something people, including me, have complained about incessantly). Egwene shouting and calling Rand names was in character - she believes if he does as wishes, the world will end and believes that she is right about everything - but Rand doing the same back to her felt like Brandon was merely trying to pacify the fans who had a problem with him being so calm and looking better than Egwene during their meeting at the WT.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm not sure if the "hypocrisy" was aimed at me, but I'll reply to it if it is. 

 

I'm sorry if it was not clear, I will clarify. 

 

The topic is not forbidden. You may discuss the topic at hand. You are always allowed to post your opinion on a given subject, if it is within the rules. 

 

I don't have a problem with debating. People can say it is a cash cow if they wish. People can disagree. 

 

What I did not want to happen was Harriet being insulted ( which has yet to happen, else I would have used balefire) and it turn into an insult session based on the opinion that they were milking money. 

 

So, while it is perfectly acceptable to express concerns about the topic - further questioning of anyone's integrity while they are unable to respond to the accusations is not. 

 

That goes for any person in question, and any topic for future reference. 

[Elan Tedronai]

We hear and obey lord demandred :p

[Mr. Micawber]

Jordan had an extraordinarily rare disease that has only extremely expensive treatments. Of course, he developed the disease because of his exposure to Agent Orange during his time in Vietnam, so it's a little ridiculous the US government didn't pay for his treatment. But then we've been terrible about helping Vietnam vets since day 1, and we didn't even acknowledge Agent Orange exposure causes massive problems until like late 80s or even the 90s. So, unlike most people, I don't begrudge him any "cash cowing"that might have happened.

What , that is just weird. The reason that BS book was bad  was that they contend to much nonsense and filler (among other things if have understood things right (?))  - this happened because there are to many books - this in turn is because X decided to make more books ( agienst the advice from the author ) because X wanted more money ( that´s and objective statement in this line of thought as there otherwise was no need for more books ) = milk cow. Then it´s is weird to say that " no i dont care if it was a milk cow "

 

ps .if i read Bel Barids comment right (?) we should not discus this thing more so this i my last word for now in this debate  - Hypocrisy

 

I don't think you got the gist of my comment at all. I was saying everyone could be as commercial as they wanted, and I would not give a damn. I don't think the cash cow argument is convincing because, among other things, Jordan deserved any legal way to recoup the massive financial damage he and his family suffered thanks to his service in Vietnam coming back to haunt him decades later.

[Barid Bel Medar]

We hear and obey lord demandred :p

 

Yeah, I feel like I really am Demandred in aMoL, shouting at everyone randomly. I don't enjoy it, but when I don't make myself clear, and people get confused, what with me being lord and all, I have to clarify :P

 

I am not trying to be a repetitive angry OP fuelled Cenn Buie (by the way, where was that ingrate at the Last Battle) just trying to do my job. 

[MarkDiLillo]

now all you need are some giant laser guns to randomly fire...

[Treebeard]

I'm not sure if the "hypocrisy" was aimed at me, but I'll reply to it if it is. 

 

I'm sorry if it was not clear, I will clarify. 

 

The topic is not forbidden. You may discuss the topic at hand. You are always allowed to post your opinion on a given subject, if it is within the rules. 

 

I don't have a problem with debating. People can say it is a cash cow if they wish. People can disagree. 

 

What I did not want to happen was Harriet being insulted ( which has yet to happen, else I would have used balefire) and it turn into an insult session based on the opinion that they were milking money. 

 

So, while it is perfectly acceptable to express concerns about the topic - further questioning of anyone's integrity while they are unable to respond to the accusations is not. 

 

That goes for any person in question, and any topic for future reference. 

no it was´t aimed at you. and iam sorry if you took offence . and I am strongly positive to the more regulated tone in this discussion 

[haplo333]

In someway it was much better than TGS and TOM, in someway it was not. I did not like the involvement of the characters such as Moiraine, Nynaeve, Shaidar Haran, Padan Fain and Min. The book was consumed by Mat, Perrin, Elayne, Egwene and Rand. However, the ending was the right one and unforgettable. I think it was also the right time for the Wheel of Time to end and I always remember the series above anything else. Thank you, Brandon to finish it for us and Thank you, Harriet and Team Jordan to let him to finish it. After Robert Jordan has died, the only significant thing for me to know the plot, ending. Actually, I do not care about the writing too much, Brandon could have written it maybe better but he finished the most complex series, the fantasy world has ever seen, with a great success.

[Barid Bel Medar]

No, I didn't take offence, I was just unsure if you had an issue or not. 

 

So it isn't awkward, I will get back on topic. 

 

One thing I thought was good to see was the Foreshadowing. So far I have only seen 4 (about 1/2 way through the book) but they have been good, considering bluntness is one of Brandon's weaknesses, I was happy to see that it has improved. See the Foreshadowing thread for more details. 

 

While not perfect, I felt encouraged that Brandon seems to have improved on some things, rather than seeming stagnant like it did in ToM. 

 

Having said that, I don't believe I have actually commented on my thoughts on the book as a whole. 

 

While it is plain to see in my posts that I believe there was much that was done poorly in aMoL, I actually enjoyed the book. I thought it a step up from ToM in many ways. Things which seemed to get worse in ToM were improved upon in aMoL. So yeah, I did enjoy the book well enough for what it was. 

[peasant007]

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, this is why I get intensely furious with people here gushing about the "COOL ACTION" scenes. That was *never* how Jordan wrote his battles!

 

Dont know why one should get furious over someone elses opinion. People like Elayne, I dont. I dont get furious about it. I thought the mindless explosive "throw everything at the enemy" Final Battle was fine. Much like I thought Dumai Wells and the Battle of Two Rivers and whatnot were fine. You can enjoy both, its possible.

 

 

Because I started reading these books because of what they had in them. Leaving aside the largely poor quality of the Battle, let me try this in a different way

I like the Daily Show. I also like the Wire. The Wire can sometimes be really funny, like anything can be, and the Daily Show can be sobering.

But if David Simon decided to make another season of the Wire and filled it with non stop guffaws, you know what? I'm going to be really damn angry, and I'm going to have very little patience for people whose reaction appears to be "yay more Wire!" *when the product we are given bears no relation to what makes the Wire the Wire*

 

 

Yes, but if David Simon died in the middle of finishing the Wire and the replacement got the tone wrong but overall was decent, I would be okay with that.

 

I understand you and I see things differently on the finished product. I am happy that there is one. When RJ first died, I thought that was it, there was going to be nothing. But they actually found a decent author to do the stuff. A decent author who didnt have a decade to pour over the notes, read the series six times, analyse every little thing. I had no expectations, because I knew that there would be plot holes, that certain characters wouldnt be the same, such as Mat. because no one can continue on with another mans epic work and expect it to be the same. Any author in the world would have given the same product.

 

So yeah, I am aware of the plot holes, the character defiencies, the overall general different feel of the later books compared to the ones RJ wrote. But the books are decent. They could be better, but they could be worst. And they could simply not exist as well.

 

RJ missed out on details occasionally to, and even admitted it (such as that missing Aes Sedai who was meant to be at the Cleansing, forgot her name.) Thats because he has 2000+ characters, subplot on subplot, etc etc. And if RJ makes mistakes over his own work, then what could we expect of Sanderson?

 

I dont know, I enjoyed the latest book. It finished the tale, told the tale in a way that pleased me. I finally got to read about the end. Yeah sure, the journey wasnt the greatest, but at least there was an end.

 

Yea, which is why I have now altered my previous support for the "exquels" and would have preferred a release in book form of Jordan's notes and his completed material

 

 

I would not have found this acceptable.  I wouldn't mind seeing an anthology with the actual completed work and then the notes along with it.  But just having the scenes that Jordan did write and then only his notes?  That would have caused even more of an uproar.

 

I write in my spare time.  I've participated (and won) in NaNoWriMo a few times.  Do you know what my outlines and notes look like?  It's something like this (from my last NaNo outline):

 

*Rem (main character) is applying for job at an agency.

 -Maybe include sexy times with Lucy (minor character) (actual words straight from my dry erase board)

*Main character gets steady gig as a maid with a prominent family

 -Main characters thoughts about family

 -Main character muses that he might marry girl (Lily) from family someday.

*Girl gets disowned from family for her actions.

 -Main character's thoughts about this.

 -Girl calls him up and he goes to her place.

 -She kills him and turns him into zombie.

 -"Aliens."  (Okay, that's not in the outline, but the "Aliens" Guy Meme makes me laugh.)

 

And so on and so forth.

 

Notes are ambiguous that give the gist of where I want to go with maybe some key words or phrases to trigger MY memories.  They make complete sense to ME.  Those few bullet points are completely fleshed out in my mind.  I THINK that these notes are pretty obvious about where I want to go and I THINK that, if I were to die, that my husband would know exactly what I was thinking (were he to carry on with writing my story).  My husband is very familiar with my story because I talk to him about it all the time.  However, even though he has this great knowledge, he's not in my mind.  Oh he can be fairly certain, maybe, but a lot would get lost in translation and deciphering.

 

Obviously Robert Jordan's notes would be a lot longer and probably a bit more detailed.  But are we sure of that?  The guy had been writing the series for almost 20 years.  The word "sniff" would have probably triggered a whole scene for him when he saw the word.  He would naturally assume that everyone would know what that meant and would see the scene in their minds just as clearly as he saw it in his.

 

My point is that if they would have only released his actual written chapters along with his notes and outlines, we might have just gotten a 25 page book with things like:

 

*Rand has huge meeting.

 -Rand and Aviendha.

 -Dream Shard

 -MOIRAINE!

 -Everyone sees wisdom in Rand's treaty.

*Kill lots of trollocs.

 -MOAR trolloc killing.

 -Throw in a Fade to spice things up a bit.

*Demandred=Godzilla but not as campy.  Maybe.

 - Aliens Sharans

 -Gawyn is a twit.

 *Nakomi

 -Never, ever define who she is.  Laugh heartily.  Include "Bohoho" while laughing.

*Step Three: Profit.

 

I realize I'm being incredibly irreverent about his notes.  That's why he was a professional writer while I am not and probably never will be.  But my point still stands.  Notes and a few jotted down scenes are not better.  In fact that would have just made everything worse.  Can you imagine the pure speculation?  We have that now with a completed book!

 

I will give credit, a lot of credit, to Brandon Sanderson.  Have any of you tried to write fanfic?  Writing another author's characters is incredibly hard.  The best ones still make a few mistakes.  I am incredibly greatful that the series was complete.  Heck, didn't Robert Jordan want to burn all his notes so nobody could complete his series?  (And hey, that just validates my parody opinion on how his notes looked, really).  We have an ending.  Could it have been better?  Maybe.  But could Brandon have done it perfectly?  Nope.  Only Robert Jordan could have, because the original author knows how to write their own characters the best.  And, unfortunately, Robert Jordan couldn't do that.  I am just glad that he allowed someone else to see his vision through.

[Aeo Sedai]

That tends to be my view as well.

 

I suspect a number of these plot holes and/or filler throughout all three books are derived from things mentioned, but not necessarily fully explained in RJ's notes. Take the Hornblower plot hole for example; the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced this isn't a plot hole so much as it is something that was intended all along in RJ's story. Why else would Mat, a Ta'veren, suddenly become so unlucky that he could be struck in killed by lightning, even OP-generated lightning? He was meant to get hit by lightning, he was meant to die and break his connection to the Horn, regardless of the paradox created by Balefire. 

 

Indeed, I suspect the Horn's "connection" might function more like memory, which as we know isn't erased by Balefire's retroactive changes to the Pattern. So even though Mat is alive and well, the Horn remembers his death and so, he's no longer the Hornblower.