Quality Discussion Thread

[jjstraka34]

God! I am sorry to be rude but guys, what the hell are you talking about? Four books? Five? Six? After KoD, the series had plot material for at most 1500 pages. Do you seriously want to read more useless filler material like Hinderstap, and Gawyn's stupid mopping or mindless, repetitive battle scenes. Come on!

 

Knife of Dreams was a step in the right direction, but I don't believe for a minute Jordan could have finished this in 1500 pages. Even Harriett said that was probably wishful thinking on RJ's part, and you can hardly blame him for that considering, but no, he just wouldn't have been able to do it. For one thing, he would have been alot more meticulous about the stuff that Sanderson casually tossed aside without a thought (Perrin/Whitecloaks, Rand/Tuon as prime examples). 

[Ryrin]

 

I just finished aMOL and wow, what a disappointment.

I have never been a part of the Brandon Bashing Team but this book just felt so wrong.

 

One of the really terrible things that stands out is the naming of new characters. Jordan did this beautifully and his names were both new yet believable.

 

In AMOL it really shows that they are trying to shove in as many fan names as possible (gathered from various auctions I guess). Whenever I got to one of these names I was completely pulled out of the story and became annoyed because it was so obvious and didn't fit the culture in these books. So bad.

 

Then let's not forget Mat. Can't Brandon give him one bloody scentence without having him use Bloody in some way? In the end it felt ridiculous  Was this some sort of Monthy Python spoof on WoT???

 

And last. Battles, sure they are important but this was army porn in excess! I reckon about more than a third of the book were battle-scenes. Sure those where intense in a way but they didn't bring the story forward a bit. This series has developed so many great characters and stories that should have been resolved. But the story came second to everything else. Brandon hit the fast forward button as soon as character interaction were about to happen.

 

For most part of my reading of AMOL I felt that I didn't care and actually started to skip pages!?!

 

What a waste this was.

 

Guys; sorry for the rant but I had to get some of it off me. I shed a tear when I was done reading. But not because of something happening in the story. But because the end was handled so bad.

 

 

No reason to be sorry. I feel the same way.

[jjstraka34]

On one hand it's hard for me to be totally critical of Sanderson. He allowed us to see the series through to the end. No matter what else, I don't think anyone would have been satisfied to re-read the series up to "Knife of Dreams" for all-time and never know the outcome. He added some memorable scenes and did a bang-up job in certain areas. I just HATE the fact that he screwed up so, so badly where he did. I think the pacing and plot resolution in many cases is atrocious, and it didn't need to be that way. The best part of the Wheel of Time was never that it was great "literature", it was the fact that Jordan was uniquely talented in immersing us in this SPECIFIC world, and it was so detailed it felt like it could really exist. Sanderson's ultimate sin is that much of his writing killed that immersion, and that was probably unavoidable, but it doesn't make it any less sad. 

[pmtang]

Rand was saddened when his friend's, Gawyn, Bryne, Bashere, etc. threads vanished from the pattern.  That only happens if they die by balefire, no?

[Guest van]

I agree i was somewhat underwhelmed by this book.

Rand felt like a devolution to 'Fires of heaven' Rand, what with his bickering with Egwene etc and his inability to accept other people dying (wasn't this resolved last 2 book?).

Tuon meeting Rand was a good scene, but even that had awkwardness, with Rand intimidating Tuon then Tuon frustrating Rand at the end.

 

Pointless deaths like siuan and gawyn and egwene, no emotional impact really.

 

Rand vs Dark one was incredibly awkward, in this regard we can see how good RJ was since the scene way back when Rand went into the portal stones and went into alternate realities 'i win again lews therin' was masterful.

 

I thought the last 2 books were really good so its a shame this book wasn't as great, still a good read though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Amandera]

Rand was saddened when his friend's, Gawyn, Bryne, Bashere, etc. threads vanished from the pattern.  That only happens if they die by balefire, no?

I don't remember if "vanish" was the word used. But whether by balefire or normal death, threads don't just vanish. Normal death means the thread is cut, it doesn't continue but that does not undo how the character affected the Pattern upto that point. If balefire is used, the thread burns backwards. It is very like using a lighter or a scissors on a thread of yarn actually.

[Aeo Sedai]

 

Rand was saddened when his friend's, Gawyn, Bryne, Bashere, etc. threads vanished from the pattern.  That only happens if they die by balefire, no?

I don't remember if "vanish" was the word used. But whether by balefire or normal death, threads don't just vanish. Normal death means the thread is cut, it doesn't continue but that does not undo how the character affected the Pattern upto that point. If balefire is used, the thread burns backwards. It is very like using a lighter or a scissors on a thread of yarn actually.

 

I've always been kind of skeptical that Balefire actually prevents rebirth, as it's implied to, if only because I can't figure out how on earth they could possibly know what Balefire did to the threads of the pattern, if you had to be outside of it to see the thing. 

 

I'm not saying it doesn't damage the pattern, but only because the pattern has to rewrite itself in the past, where it's not supposed to. 

[Amandera]

Balefire is not the eternal death of soul, RJ confirmed that years ago.

[pmtang]

Pg 780

 

Jori Congar lay buried beneath a Trolloc body, whimpering for help until he bled to death.  Rand wept for Jori as his thread finally vanished.

[SinisterDeath]

 

Admittedly, my memory is not what it used to be, but I didn't have to 'read what RJ actually said' when I can remember hearing him say it out loud all those years ago. 

 

My point being, many fans learned to take RJ with a grain of salt whenever he talked about the future of the series.

 

 

 

I think the first time RJ said 3 more books we got 6 more.... so obivously that 1 more book had to mean 2 or 3 more. ;)

 

I wish people would bother to read what RJ actually said - he frequently said things like "at least X more books", then with CoT he said "probably 2 more". The only time he said for damn sure how many were left was with KoD. He never said three more books.

Actually, its a confirmed quote that when RJ wrote EoTW, that he thought it would only be a Trilogy.

[Aeo Sedai]

 

God! I am sorry to be rude but guys, what the hell are you talking about? Four books? Five? Six? After KoD, the series had plot material for at most 1500 pages. Do you seriously want to read more useless filler material like Hinderstap, and Gawyn's stupid mopping or mindless, repetitive battle scenes. Come on!

 

Knife of Dreams was a step in the right direction, but I don't believe for a minute Jordan could have finished this in 1500 pages. Even Harriett said that was probably wishful thinking on RJ's part, and you can hardly blame him for that considering, but no, he just wouldn't have been able to do it. For one thing, he would have been alot more meticulous about the stuff that Sanderson casually tossed aside without a thought (Perrin/Whitecloaks, Rand/Tuon as prime examples). 

 

 

This is generally my thoughts on the matter as well. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if most, if not all all of this 'filler' material people are complaining about, and weird, dangling plot threads and holes are a direct consequence of BS trying to make something worthwhile out of RJ's notes. To me, the three books that BS wrote aren't stuffed with filler so much as they are stuffed with fragments of RJ's notes, and BS's attempt to spin them into a coherent story (For example, one of the notes might have mentioned that the Horn also summons Wolf heroes, and another might have mentioned that the dead would fight in the Last Battle (Which evolved into Hinderstap because BS couldn't see how the walking dead, as they wre depicted in the series, could fight in the last battle)). I expect that if RJ had written the rest of the series it could have came out as being as many as 20 books long. And yes, that's a hyperbole, but frankly, as I noted earlier in the thread, Knife of Dreams was a step in the right direction, but like a single data point in statistics, it doesn't really tell us if it was actually a step towards a trend of books that moved increasingly forward, or if it was just a particularly bright book after several bloated ones. 

 

I mean, I kind of doubt RJ would have allowed Egwene to wrap the rebellion storyline up so quickly and neatly, for example, or as you mention Tuon/Rand or Perrin/Whitecloaks. 

 

On one hand, perhaps BS cut them a bit short, but on the other hand I think he managed to instill a sense of urgency to the series that got lost at least around TPoD book. 

[metalisticpain]

I am happy with the quality of these last three books.

 

There are definitely things that could have been better, but I think to say Brandon should be ashamed is complete rubbish. The books are not that bad, we are not talking 50 Shades of grey here. We are talking about a fantasy author who has a different style of writing, bangs is books out completely different way to Mr Jordan and does not have the some finesse in same areas (I wouldn't expect him to considering the experience gap)

 

Sure there are things that could easily have been fixed, but I do not lay the blame solely at Sanderons feet. Words and phrases could have been picked up by Harriet and Co more as well. But they needed to get these finished. This is probably not the easiest thing for Harriet. Her husband dies and she has to work for years straight out of the aftermath to deliver this for the fans.

 

So yes, some things could be better, but it could be a lot worse too. Some bits were rushed, some easy mistakes made and not corrected. At the end of the day though I believe we have the best result possible for the series given the circumstances. We have an ending, it didn't take another decade and mostly it was written fairly well with limited direction.

 

I of course would prefer to have Jordan alive and another 6 books in the meticulous Jordan style, but I think they made the right choice, which was to have Brandon wrap the story up. I agree with Aeo Sedai and other views essentially.

[jjstraka34]

 

This is generally my thoughts on the matter as well. I wouldn't be surprised if most, if not all all of this 'filler' material people are complaining about, and weird, dangling plot threads and holes are a direct consequence of BS trying to make something worthwhile out of RJ's notes. To me, the three books that BS wrote aren't stuffed with filler so much as they are stuffed with fragments of RJ's notes, and BS's attempt to spin them into a coherent story (For example, one of the notes might have mentioned that the Horn also summons Wolf heroes, and another might have mentioned that the dead would fight in the Last Battle (Which evolved into Hinderstap because BS couldn't see how the walking dead, as they wre depicted in the series, could fight in the last battle)). I expect that if RJ had written the rest of the series it could have came out as being as many as 20 books long. And yes, that's a hyperbole, but frankly, as I noted earlier in the thread, Knife of Dreams was a step in the right direction, but like a single data point in statistics, it doesn't really tell us if it was actually a step towards a trend of books that moved increasingly forward, or if it was just a particularly bright book after several bloated ones. 

 

I mean, I kind of doubt RJ would have allowed Egwene to wrap the rebellion storyline up so quickly and neatly, for example, or as you mention Tuon/Rand or Perrin/Whitecloaks. On one hand, perhaps BS cut them a bit short, but on the other hand I think he managed to instill a sense of urgency to the series that got lost at least around TPoD book. 

 

I think you're right about most of this, though I think the best thing Sanderson did is the way he wrapped up Egwene's story with the Tower, since it felt the most like what Jordan might have done (aside from the Tower of Ghenji and "The Last Battle" chapters, both of which Jordan had at least something to with). I recently went back and read the end of Knife of Dreams, and he also did a pretty good job with the Black Tower when you go back and look at where Jordan left off with that. Those are the highlights for me. But Sanderson botched at least 4 or 5 key events by resolving them in less than 10 pages, when it's doubtful Jordan would have done so in less than 100....minimum....

[Balefire to da face!]

 

Agreed Rhuan.

 

 I feel like this should have been atleast 5 more books to fully flesh out all the details.

Brandon was signed on for 1 more book and gave us 3. I think he did all he could do in order to cram those 5 into 3 and give us an ending.

 

 If RJ hadn't had health problems I would be willing to say he would have turned it into 6 more books. There were so many resolutions that were huge that ended in a matter of a handful of pages or even a chapter that there is no way RJ wouldn't have expanded. 

God! I am sorry to be rude but guys, what the hell are you talking about? Four books? Five? Six? After KoD, the series had plot material for at most 1500 pages. Do you seriously want to read more useless filler material like Hinderstap, and Gawyn's stupid mopping or mindless, repetitive battle scenes. Come on!

 

You're essentially arguing that Brandon should have finished in nearly half the space?

 

Like I said earlier, I think that aMoL should have been shuffled to give space to more important things, but I think the length was about right. I also think the length was good for TGS and ToM. It truly baffles me that people call TGS or ToM bloated.

 

I just find it so ridiculous that people nitpick so much at Brandon for storylines he had to tie up, as bloat. Such as Gawyn. Jordan has him completely, utterly, RIDICULOUSLY stay with Elaida for something like 6 frickin books. And then people blame Brandon for having to waste pages on getting Gawyn where he needs to get. Very few of us liked him, it's one of the weaker parts of TGS. But look at the outcome. Gawyn was clearly a huge part of the remaining outline. What was Brandon supposed to do?

 

People complain about Hinderstap, and I will admit that was a bit of an indulgence on Brandon's part. But here's the thing. Hinderstap is 20 pages. You want to prove your point.....cut about 1,000 more. Much of the rest of the page count for Mat was warranted to properly set him up for ToM. 

 

The Perrin chapters are easy to write off as bloat now, but they are short. And the reality of the time was that a WoT book hadn't been released in four years. Those short bits were needed simply because the character deserved a peak and not being shoved off to the side for another year.

 

I am currently rereading TGS, and I simply see very little bloat at all. Especially considering the series it is in. The Cadsuane/Semi arc was perfect, and hit just the right note. The Rand arc deserved every page that it took considering that it concluded the arc of his character for at least the past 7 books. Ditto Egwene's arc, which did a hell of a job wrapping up the convoluted mess that had become the Rebel/Tower tangle. Which had also ran since about Lord of Chaos. Honestly, Brandon should be given a medal for tying up the black ajah hunters, the split, Egwene/Elaida, Verin, the great purge, and even a little intrigue in there in the space he did.

 

I could keep going. For instance, the fact that Brandon basically wrapped Rodel up in a chapter after Jordan has teased us with him for I don't even know how many pages and years.

 

And that is specifics. In general I would argue that it's just plain wrong that people would complain about nearly any of the Rand/Egwene/Perrin/Mat(though there is some legitimate problems with Mat) arcs in TGS and ToM. They are the characters we bought our tickets for in the first place. Not to see how many different Aes Sedai with similair sounding "S" names we can manage to fit into a book.

 

So yeah....reading TGS right now. Just don't see the bloat.

 

Of course that is just on the question of what Brandon should have done. How many pages Brandon should have finished in.

[Suttree]

You're essentially arguing that Brandon should have finished in nearly half the space?

Sanderson didn't want the books split into three so obviously he thought he could have done it in less. The bloat is there, Brandon for whatever reason would not/could not use ellipsis to move the action along. Add to that all the filler in these three books and yes, RJ could certainly have done it in 1 book split into two WH size volumes.

 

Also it is hilarious that you would throw a back handed insult at RJ's AS names given the D&D style absurdity of naming in AMoL.

 

Bottom line RJ was very concise when he needed to be, where we are in the story arc accounts for the increased pace as much as anything(it's not as if it's some huge skill of Brandon's) and it's insulting that you are seeming to suggest RJ would need another author to step in and finish the "mess" you are claiming things had become. KoD showed he knew where he was going. End of.

[jjstraka34]

In retrospect, "The Gathering Storm" proved to be the high point of this little experiment. At that point the series needed a a bit of a kick in the ass, and "Knife of Dreams" moved things along just enough to make that possible. I remember having some minor problems with TGS but I honestly can't remember it being all that bad. The cracks didn't start to show until "Towers of Midnight" (which had to wrap up just as much as the final book) and they became chasms in the first half of "A Memory of Light" and came damn close the crashing the whole series. The second half was good enough to save everything, but for awhile I was staring at the pages in horror. 

[flinn]

Balefire is not the eternal death of soul, RJ confirmed that years ago.

 Considering Lews Therin balefired himself and still rose as Rand, hard to argue that point.

[Suttree]

 

Balefire is not the eternal death of soul, RJ confirmed that years ago.

 Considering Lews Therin balefired himself and still rose as Rand, hard to argue that point.

That wasn't balefire per RJ.

[flinn]

 

 

Agreed Rhuan.

 

 I feel like this should have been atleast 5 more books to fully flesh out all the details.

Brandon was signed on for 1 more book and gave us 3. I think he did all he could do in order to cram those 5 into 3 and give us an ending.

 

 If RJ hadn't had health problems I would be willing to say he would have turned it into 6 more books. There were so many resolutions that were huge that ended in a matter of a handful of pages or even a chapter that there is no way RJ wouldn't have expanded. 

God! I am sorry to be rude but guys, what the hell are you talking about? Four books? Five? Six? After KoD, the series had plot material for at most 1500 pages. Do you seriously want to read more useless filler material like Hinderstap, and Gawyn's stupid mopping or mindless, repetitive battle scenes. Come on!

 

You're essentially arguing that Brandon should have finished in nearly half the space?

 

Like I said earlier, I think that aMoL should have been shuffled to give space to more important things, but I think the length was about right. I also think the length was good for TGS and ToM. It truly baffles me that people call TGS or ToM bloated.

 

I just find it so ridiculous that people nitpick so much at Brandon for storylines he had to tie up, as bloat. Such as Gawyn. Jordan has him completely, utterly, RIDICULOUSLY stay with Elaida for something like 6 frickin books. And then people blame Brandon for having to waste pages on getting Gawyn where he needs to get. Very few of us liked him, it's one of the weaker parts of TGS. But look at the outcome. Gawyn was clearly a huge part of the remaining outline. What was Brandon supposed to do?

 

People complain about Hinderstap, and I will admit that was a bit of an indulgence on Brandon's part. But here's the thing. Hinderstap is 20 pages. You want to prove your point.....cut about 1,000 more. Much of the rest of the page count for Mat was warranted to properly set him up for ToM. 

 

The Perrin chapters are easy to write off as bloat now, but they are short. And the reality of the time was that a WoT book hadn't been released in four years. Those short bits were needed simply because the character deserved a peak and not being shoved off to the side for another year.

 

I am currently rereading TGS, and I simply see very little bloat at all. Especially considering the series it is in. The Cadsuane/Semi arc was perfect, and hit just the right note. The Rand arc deserved every page that it took considering that it concluded the arc of his character for at least the past 7 books. Ditto Egwene's arc, which did a hell of a job wrapping up the convoluted mess that had become the Rebel/Tower tangle. Which had also ran since about Lord of Chaos. Honestly, Brandon should be given a medal for tying up the black ajah hunters, the split, Egwene/Elaida, Verin, the great purge, and even a little intrigue in there in the space he did.

 

I could keep going. For instance, the fact that Brandon basically wrapped Rodel up in a chapter after Jordan has teased us with him for I don't even know how many pages and years.

 

And that is specifics. In general I would argue that it's just plain wrong that people would complain about nearly any of the Rand/Egwene/Perrin/Mat(though there is some legitimate problems with Mat) arcs in TGS and ToM. They are the characters we bought our tickets for in the first place. Not to see how many different Aes Sedai with similair sounding "S" names we can manage to fit into a book.

 

So yeah....reading TGS right now. Just don't see the bloat.

 

Of course that is just on the question of what Brandon should have done. How many pages Brandon should have finished in.

 You gave some very good examples. The Galad/Questioner situation was resolved in remarkable speed. There is no way Jordan wouldnt have expanded that in to much more. It would have been very good and entertaining and sucked us all right into the story, but it would have added about 5 chapters just on that conclusion. Then jump to the Whitecloak/Perrin, heck that would be the rest of the book plus some of the next. I am sure it would have been great. The bottom line is, yes we would have gotten a much more submersive read with Jordan but in order for that to have happened Jordan would have expanded the series even further to make sure it was as good as it could be. Brandon didnt have that option. He was brought in to conclude the series. 

[flinn]

 

 

Balefire is not the eternal death of soul, RJ confirmed that years ago.

 Considering Lews Therin balefired himself and still rose as Rand, hard to argue that point.

That wasn't balefire per RJ.

 My mistake, I didnt know that. Ah well, since I believed it was all along It didnt suprise me to see RJ confirmed balefire is NOT the eternal death of soul.

[Agitel]

I thought Brandon stepped up his writing game for AMoL. There was a little bit of a choppy start, but I feel that he pulled things together. I also feel that I benefited from doing a reread of ToM immediately before reading AMoL. tGS can stand as one book, but I after this reread I can't help but conclude that ToM and AMoL need to be taken as a single book, like PoD and WH, or CoT and KoD.

 

There was a LOT of action in this book. It was a little weird at first, though I think treating it as one book with ToM helped, and understanding it was the conclusion of a fourteen book series.

 

I was a bit disappointed a little by the Fain arc, though. I thought that would amount to something. Even if it didn't change everything, I thought it would throw a wrench into Rand's plan on some level.

[jjstraka34]

One thing that deserves to be pointed out.....how the hell did Egwene find out about Moridin?? There is zero reason anyone but Rand would know his name. And it points to another flaw, is that the characters just KNOW things they have no business or precedent for knowing. Perrin having knowledge of what Lanfear was like in the Age of Legends is another glaring example. 

[filk]

To everyone saying that the battle scenes should have been cut: I really can't believe that. Because it was all one book and cut so quickly, TG felt to me like it was over in an instant. If anything, I wish there had been more battle scenes; but spreading out back into the last two books. To throw in something so fast in a series that is traditionally glacially paced made it feel like TG was over in an afternoon.

[Suttree]

There are so many problems with the battle scenes I honestly don't know where to begin. Inane strategies, numbers off, channelers powered down or flat out non-existent. Further much of the fighting seemed like a video game where waves of bad guys are basically fodder. It turned into battle porn and sections of it could have been cut out without losing a single thing.

[metalisticpain]

The battle scenes were 100% required imo. The whole book is almost dedicated to it, which is the way it should be. people complain about the characters not each having a voice or enough time on screen... thats the point! its the last battle, everything is chaos. They are fighting desperately for their lives for weeks. Theres no time. It gave the book a sense of desperation for me. The battle ebbed and flowed. They were winning and then not, and then winning again and then not. It had a pulse.

 

Theres no point saying Jordan would have or wouldn't have made this or that scene longer or shorter. I don't feel there was bloat, everyone is entitled to their opinion on the matter but we cant say aye or nay that RJ would have "certainly" wrapped it up in two books. Its moot. We will never know. There can never be any "certainty".

 

Its sad to see so many fans dislike the end book or dislike all three. I dont think Brandon did it on purpose, I believe he gave it 100% as did all the team. unfortunately he is no RJ and never will be. No one could be. Im glad to have some closure. Its not 100% perfect but its good imo.