Quality Discussion Thread

[John Everyman]

RJ was a combat veteran who served in Vietnam. Certainly he has the cred and was very good at writing military scenes. The Damona Campaign is some of the best writing in the entire series.

 

@jj

 

It works well when you read them like that.

 

Sure, but that's a far cry from being, y'know, the greatest military genius of an age (who's aided by the memories of some of histories greatest soldiers).  I was never personally sold on Mat's military genius throughout the series, but I accept that as a natural problem in writing "genius" characters.

[Mr. Micawber]

RJ was a combat veteran who served in Vietnam. Certainly he has the cred and was very good at writing military scenes. The Damona Campaign is some of the best writing in the entire series.

 

@jj

 

It works well when you read them like that.

 

Suttree, that's what I'm talking about. The battle of Cairhien was one of the best fictional battles I've ever read. And if you know anything about Nam, you can tell that a. Perrin is Jordan's author avatar, and b. the battle of the Two Rivers drew heavily from his experiences over there.

 

Also, Jordan went to the Citadel, so it wasn't that he was merely a combat vet, he also had exposure to the sort of history, doctrine, staff studies, and the like that I've spent a great deal of time on too

[jjstraka34]

I don't think Jordan would have spent upwards of 300 pages focusing on what is basically a Trolloc massacre. Trolloc massacre in Caemlyn, Trolloc massacre at Tarwin's Gap, Trolloc massacre in Kandor. It seems like we revisited each of these places to do the same thing 3 or 4 times before it became evident that the Captains were compromised (a plot twist that I found very compelling if it had been handled with the slightest touch). 

[Mr. Micawber]

You know who would have done a great job? Jimbo the redneck fantasy and romance novel writer from Questionable Content

[jjstraka34]

If I were to make a quick list of what Sanderson did right and what he completely bungled, it would go something like this:

 

Good:

 

1. Resolution between Egwene/Elaida and the Battle of Tar Valon

2. Mat (for the most part)

3. Rand's relationship with Cadsuane and his revelation on Dragonmount

4. The Black Tower

5. Pretty much anything to do with the forces of the Shadow and the Forsaken

 

Bad:

 

1.) Perrin (aside from his role during the battle in Tel'aran'rhiod)

2.) Elayne (complete disaster)

3.) His breakneck pacing and instantaneous, out of the blue solutions to long-standing plot threads

4.) Anytime Rand has to interact with anyone outside the inner-circle he has kept since "Path of Daggers" 

[Mr. Micawber]

To be entirely fair, Elayne's a disaster no matter who's writing her...

[Treebeard]

If I were to make a quick list of what Sanderson did right and what he completely bungled, it would go something like this:

 

Good:

 

1. Resolution between Egwene/Elaida and the Battle of Tar Valon

2. Mat (for the most part)

3. Rand's relationship with Cadsuane and his revelation on Dragonmount

4. The Black Tower

5. Pretty much anything to do with the forces of the Shadow and the Forsaken

 

Bad:

 

1.) Perrin (aside from his role during the battle in Tel'aran'rhiod)

2.) Elayne (complete disaster)

3.) His breakneck pacing and instantaneous, out of the blue solutions to long-standing plot threads

4.) Anytime Rand has to interact with anyone outside the inner-circle he has kept since "Path of Daggers" 

What !!!! Perrin - it was here that Brandon shone perhaps the most bright

and I don´t think that he bungled Rand at any point - quite the opposite in fact

[jjstraka34]

What !!!! Perrin - it was here that Brandon shone perhaps the most bright

and I don´t think that he bungled Rand at any point - quite the opposite in fact

 

A few things influenced my Perrin choice. First was the way the Whitecloak plot, which has been a major theme since the first 250 pages of the series, ended like a bad joke. Second is the meeting and agreement with Elayne during ToM (you would think the two had no knowledge of each other whatsoever based on this scene). And his interaction with Lanfear in AMoL is pretty much inexcusable, since he talks with her much the same way Rand does, which is ridiculous.

 

Rand was handled GREAT in TGS, but horrible the first part of AMoL. This mostly has to do with how much he has to do in so short a time. Over the course of 400 pages he has to make peace with Egwene and all the nations of the world, reunite with Moiraine, have a last moment with Tam, and meet with Tuon, Like I mentioned above, it feels like he is running errands rather than making some of the most monumental choices in the history of the world, the bragging bit with Mat is just completely inexcusable.   

[Mr. Micawber]

What !!!! Perrin - it was here that Brandon shone perhaps the most bright

and I don´t think that he bungled Rand at any point - quite the opposite in fact

 

A few things influenced my Perrin choice. First was the way the Whitecloak plot, which has been a major theme since the first 250 pages of the series, ended like a bad joke. Second is the meeting and agreement with Elayne during ToM (you would think the two had no knowledge of each other whatsoever based on this scene). And his interaction with Lanfear in AMoL is pretty much inexcusable, since he talks with her much the same way Rand does, which is ridiculous.

 

Rand was handled GREAT in TGS, but horrible the first part of AMoL. This mostly has to do with how much he has to do in so short a time. Over the course of 400 pages he has to make peace with Egwene and all the nations of the world, reunite with Moiraine, have a last moment with Tam, and meet with Tuon, Like I mentioned above, it feels like he is running errands rather than making some of the most monumental choices in the history of the world, the bragging bit with Mat is just completely inexcusable.   

 

Big ups, bro. This is a powerful post

[Treebeard]

As for why Perrin interacted with Elayne ( or counterwise ) in a stiff manner is a) they are not so close to ech other b) Elayne is a monarch speaking to another monarch c) Faile talks most of the time d) Elayne is badly written 

[Mr. Micawber]

As for why Perrin interacted with Elayne ( or counterwise ) in a stiff manner is a) they are not so close to ech other b) Elayne is a monarch speaking to another monarch c) Faile talks most of the time d) Elayne is badly written 

 

I think it's really that Elayne is badly written no matter who's doing the job. Remember her godawful negotiating in COS or POD? This isn't confined to MOL

[Owayn The Traveller]

I said it earlier, only one book was needed but it maybe should of been a split book released simultaneously. The timeline was seriously messed up in these 3.

 

Also:

Bloody Nice to see flaming Uno being bloody back but his first flaming appearance was bloody flaming awful and bloody ashes but he flaming bloody overused the bloody flaming curses in his dialogue which was a bloody shame.

His pov was much better than his flaming first appearance.

[jjstraka34]

As for why Perrin interacted with Elayne ( or counterwise ) in a stiff manner is a) they are not so close to ech other b) Elayne is a monarch speaking to another monarch c) Faile talks most of the time d) Elayne is badly written 

 

You aren't wrong about this, but Elayne spent a few years with two women who know Perrin like a brother, and is in love with his best friend. I tried to think back and see if it was possible that they wouldn't have met before, but at the very least they would have spent some time together in Tear after the Stone fell. Even though it was handled horribly, I was glad to see that Elayne was put in charge of the armies, if for no other reason than it at least marginally justified all the time spent on her securing her throne. 

 

I'm not sure I even want to get into Faile. The unending length and pointlessness of the Perrin/Faile/Shaido plot almost single handely ruined the series. 

[Orange7]

I'm not sure if I would say that they are pointless. The Shaido and Masema's followers were necessary pieces early in the series, and like the Seanchan (whom Mat dealt with), they had to be dealt with before the Last Battle, and I feel that getting them to kill each other while Perrin steals his wife back got it done pretty well, while focusing on Perrin's inherent character flaws. I think that it was an introspective moment for Jordan.

[jjstraka34]

I'm not sure if I would say that they are pointless. The Shaido and Masema's followers were necessary pieces early in the series, and like the Seanchan (whom Mat dealt with), they had to be dealt with before the Last Battle, and I feel that getting them to kill each other while Perrin steals his wife back got it done pretty well, while focusing on Perrin's inherent character flaws. I think that it was an introspective moment for Jordan.

 

See, I never thought Perrin had that many character flaws to being with. He went from being a great person to practically becoming a saint. The problem was that it took 4 books to do so. Perrin's story was a absolute highlight of books 1-6, fell off a cliff in 8-12, recovered nicely for a few chapters in ToM, and fell to irredeemable depths for the finale. 

[Marc_S]

I just finished aMOL and wow, what a disappointment.

I have never been a part of the Brandon Bashing Team but this book just felt so wrong.

 

One of the really terrible things that stands out is the naming of new characters. Jordan did this beautifully and his names were both new yet believable.

 

In AMOL it really shows that they are trying to shove in as many fan names as possible (gathered from various auctions I guess). Whenever I got to one of these names I was completely pulled out of the story and became annoyed because it was so obvious and didn't fit the culture in these books. So bad.

 

Then let's not forget Mat. Can't Brandon give him one bloody scentence without having him use Bloody in some way? In the end it felt ridiculous  Was this some sort of Monthy Python spoof on WoT???

 

And last. Battles, sure they are important but this was army porn in excess! I reckon about more than a third of the book were battle-scenes. Sure those where intense in a way but they didn't bring the story forward a bit. This series has developed so many great characters and stories that should have been resolved. But the story came second to everything else. Brandon hit the fast forward button as soon as character interaction were about to happen.

 

For most part of my reading of AMOL I felt that I didn't care and actually started to skip pages!?!

 

What a waste this was.

 

Guys; sorry for the rant but I had to get some of it off me. I shed a tear when I was done reading. But not because of something happening in the story. But because the end was handled so bad.

 

[Orange7]

 

I'm not sure if I would say that they are pointless. The Shaido and Masema's followers were necessary pieces early in the series, and like the Seanchan (whom Mat dealt with), they had to be dealt with before the Last Battle, and I feel that getting them to kill each other while Perrin steals his wife back got it done pretty well, while focusing on Perrin's inherent character flaws. I think that it was an introspective moment for Jordan.

 

See, I never thought Perrin had that many character flaws to being with. He went from being a great person to practically becoming a saint. The problem was that it took 4 books to do so. Perrin's story was a absolute highlight of books 1-6, fell off a cliff in 8-12, recovered nicely for a few chapters in ToM, and fell to irredeemable depths for the finale. 

 

I agree with you on all of that, except for Winter's Heart. I feel that that was the most defining part for Perrin since The Battle of Emond's Field.

[jjstraka34]

I didn't think it was THAT bad, but pages 80-400 are filled with ALOT of bad stuff, with the occasional memorable line or two. The Prologue is handled well. The plot itself is filled with enough surprises to make it worthwhile and there isn't much that just glaringly doesn't make sense. But it is just too rushed, it can't be stated enough. We could have had 150 less pages of pointless Trolloc battles that everyone already knows the outcome of and spent the time fleshing out the two worst aspects of the book: The great meeting at the Fields of Merrilor and the truce between Rand and Tuon. The whole book suffers because of how badly these two things played out. 

[Suttree]

RJ handled ellipsis very well, it was a strength. Brandon didn't seem comfortable with it for whatever reason. Think that added greatly to the things you discuss above jj.

[Rhuan]

I'm actually a fan of Brandon's own works, but I ahve to agree with what appears to be the general consensus here, this book wasn't what we hoped it would be.

It felt rushed, it seemed to have too much crammed in to it, it seemed to miss too much out, the tactics were left hazy and unclear and don't necessarrily hold up to scrutiny, the numbers one ach side often seem way off, the effect of channelers was nerfed in this book only with respect to the rest of the series, yeah, all in all, it was a let down.

I think that we didn't need three books to end it we needed at least 4, RJ saying 1 was simply because he didn't think he had much time.

 

I'm grateful to Brandon for finishing it off, and I enjoyed it, but it doesn't convey the sense of grandeur it ought to have done, not I think because Brandon lacks skill as a writer, but rather because he's writing someone else's world, he's not as immersed in it as RJ was, he couldn't be, I think we should thank him for his efforts, I doubt that any of us could have done it as well, it wasn't done right, but there was only one man who could have done it right and he was no longer with us.

We can still appreciate it for what it is, we can be glad that we have some sort of conclusion, an ending, even if it isn't the one we wanted.

Overall I'm grateful to Brandon and I'm looking forward to reading more of his works, though I will whenever I look back to WoT be sad about how the ending played out.

[MarkDiLillo]

RJ handled ellipsis very well, it was a strength. Brandon didn't seem comfortable with it for whatever reason. Think that added greatly to the things you discuss above jj.

 

Where did RJ use ellipsis specifically that you point to as well done?  Cannot even remember a specific instance where this occured.

[dreadlord]

Admittedly, my memory is not what it used to be, but I didn't have to 'read what RJ actually said' when I can remember hearing him say it out loud all those years ago. 

 

My point being, many fans learned to take RJ with a grain of salt whenever he talked about the future of the series.

 

 

 

I think the first time RJ said 3 more books we got 6 more.... so obivously that 1 more book had to mean 2 or 3 more. ;)

 

I wish people would bother to read what RJ actually said - he frequently said things like "at least X more books", then with CoT he said "probably 2 more". The only time he said for damn sure how many were left was with KoD. He never said three more books.

[flinn]

Agreed Rhuan.

 

 I feel like this should have been atleast 5 more books to fully flesh out all the details.

Brandon was signed on for 1 more book and gave us 3. I think he did all he could do in order to cram those 5 into 3 and give us an ending.

 

 If RJ hadn't had health problems I would be willing to say he would have turned it into 6 more books. There were so many resolutions that were huge that ended in a matter of a handful of pages or even a chapter that there is no way RJ wouldn't have expanded. 

[jjstraka34]

RJ handled ellipsis very well, it was a strength. Brandon didn't seem comfortable with it for whatever reason. Think that added greatly to the things you discuss above jj.

 

This is a good point. Ultimately, even when I was bogged down in the relative pointlessness of "Crossroads of Twilight", I never read a scene and immediately thought "My god is that stupid". But I felt that way plenty during the Sanderson books, and it's not all his fault, but I would expect more considering he is a fan of the series.

[Amandera]

Agreed Rhuan.

 

 I feel like this should have been atleast 5 more books to fully flesh out all the details.

Brandon was signed on for 1 more book and gave us 3. I think he did all he could do in order to cram those 5 into 3 and give us an ending.

 

 If RJ hadn't had health problems I would be willing to say he would have turned it into 6 more books. There were so many resolutions that were huge that ended in a matter of a handful of pages or even a chapter that there is no way RJ wouldn't have expanded. 

God! I am sorry to be rude but guys, what the hell are you talking about? Four books? Five? Six? After KoD, the series had plot material for at most 1500 pages. Do you seriously want to read more useless filler material like Hinderstap, and Gawyn's stupid mopping or mindless, repetitive battle scenes. Come on!