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The "OMG I just finished!" Thread


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I think it ended the only way it could.  If the story went a single step further, I think it would only serve to start new plots that would, by necessity, be either left hanging, or force the author to begin an entire new series of book.  Either that, or you'd have an entire novel's worth of reflections by the characters on the end of the LB, and while we might think we want that, I think it would get boring pretty quick.  Just my opinion, of course.

I understand where you're coming from, but do disagree.  My feelings on the ending are that I was happy with where the plot was left off - I wasn't looking to see glimpses of Mat's future in Seanchan, or Faile being given the Saldaean throne, Lan and Nynaeve rebuilding Malkier, etc.  I was fine with it finishing straight after the last battle.  What I missed was the lack of reaction from the characters to the losses they suffered and the struggles they endured.  As DaoineSidhe says, it didn't feel like we were interacting with the characters in the same way that we did for the rest of the series.  The deaths of Egwene, Gawyn, Siuan, Gareth, Bashere, Rhuarc, etc. didn't have as much emotional impact as they could have because we didn't see any reaction from the characters.  Elayne's complete lack of reaction to the deaths of her brother and sister-in-law/friend is a good example of this.  It left me feeling that all the bonds and relationships that had been built up through the series were meaningless.

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- Demandred suffering from a terrible dose "silly bad guy" syndrome. Firstly, although he had to dispatch Logain, fighting the 3 sword fights was incredibly pointless and stopped him from commanding his armies, not to mention the destruction he was channeling down. This guy fights 4 duels, mortally wounding 3 opponents yet he is the only one who dies where the duels occur. I would have expected less mercy from one of the most evil men remaining alive ;) He lets Gawyn leave and have his final few dying words, Galad is pointlessly allowed to continue living in the story, and as for the Lan moment - this was the single worst part of the entire series. It served no purpose to keep him alive, just let the man die already. Gah. And finally, this is one of the greatest general masterminds ever, yet he manages to lose a battle in which he had overwhelming numbers even before the Sharans arrived. Hmmm!

 

 

To be fair, he didn't stop short of killing them out of mercy.  It was to let them linger and hopefully draw Rand (who he believed was commanding the armies of light, which was, admittedly, a little dense of him considering how many darkfriends/other forsaken knew for a fact that he was in THakan'dar) into direct combat.  Not only that, but Gawyn and Galad were more or less beneath his notice once they were taken out of the fight.

 

As for losing the battle, he may have been one of the greatest military minds ever, but remember, he lost to hundreds or more of the greatest military minds all rolled into one person.

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Okay... I almost feel like I lost a part of me... This would have to have been my favourite book ending ever. I was sad when good characters got killed of, namely Siuan and Gawyn

 

I was so glad that Rand survived. :)

 

I want it to continue! It can't end now! This series changed my life! If it ends now what will I spend hours on end doing? My life has been ripped apart!

 

Go Mat...

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Bittersweet.

 

Language fails me right now, and that is the only word I can come up with that fits.

 

Bittersweet.

 

I've read the series for half of my life.

 

It really is like losing a friend. 

They'll always be there, and I can always reread them again, but they'll never be fresh to me, I know how the story ends. 

 

That is both a wonderful and a terrible thing.

I feel the same way. What really saddens me is all these posts of people saying they will reread them again. I look at how busy I have become now after versus being in middle school when I started this series so many years ago... with so many other (hundreds) of books to read and so little time to read, deep down I know I likely not see this world again.

 

After Chapter 37 of AMoL, I deliberately slowed down my reading. I savored each sentence. I knew that this would be the last time I would be exploring the WoT world with fresh eyes and curiosity. When I came on the Epilogue, I choked up. Now that it's done, I feel empty.

 

I'm trying to retrace the steps of the Two Rivers boys from the first book, knowing where Moiraine/Lan will lead them. I see how Caemlyn used to be with its inns or the Aiel when we first meet them in the Waste. I can't bear thinking about Siuan's changing, or Egwene's struggles and her hopes for Gawyn knowing their imminent demise. More than 12,000 pages and a good chunk of life is tied to these books. Light.

 

Like an ex-significant other, I'm thankful for the great times but no way at this point do I want to revisit this knowing how it'll end.

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Wow, I am just gonna put down some of my initial thoughts on the book. There was a lot of good here and some bad. On the whole a satisfying end to the series. 

 

-I was STUNNED that Egwene died. I mean, really, I actually couldn't believe she was dead. Nobody dies for 13 books and then the biggest female character dies? Especially since she was a character who most strongly thought towards the future, strengthening the White Tower, reaching out to other groups of channelers, blowing away the cobwebs of the old and her promise to Tuon that she intended to live to see their evil empire fall. Especially in the context of Rand debate with the Dark One over nihilism that was a very powerful moment. Egwene represented promise and hope for the future. Really, GRRM has nothing on that.

 

-The other deaths also had similar effect. I liked Gawyn in this moment where he confessed his failings and took it on himself. Siun as well was another shock. Bryne and the Bashere died offscreen wasn't good. 

 

-Really did not like how they had Nynaeve as a wielder of Callandor. I can more or less live with Moiraines limited role but if the idea was that Rand would go with women who have had a formative role on him then this should have been Cadsuane. I really think Nynaeve going with Lan and perhaps saving him at one point as well as bonding with her new Malkieri subjects (she is a Queen now) would have been better. Especially since her testing emphasised that she would chose Lan over being an Aes Sedai. Just having her stand there and give herbs to Alanna was very unsatisfying. Yes, technically she and Moiraine trapped Moridin and defeated the DO. But I would have preferred a more prominent role.

 

-However I disliked how we have four successive people have a crack at Demandred. it does get a little silly and that with hundreds of thousands on the battlefield Galad and Lan literally just rode up him. They were all badass. Galad spitting at the forsakens feet was a nice touch. Also, Lans motivation for taking it on himself to charge up made no sense. I really wanted him to think that he was doing it because Egwene had died and it just felt like he didn't have a motivation beyond general badassery for being the one to take down Demandred.

 

-Incidentally. I understand that most of the Demandred material was put into its own novella. But its a little strange how he is the MAIN villain in this whilst other much more established villains like Moridin, Fain and even the Dark One; are given pretty anti-climatic ends or don't get to do much. Its especially testing when characters who clearly are from that story appear or worse die and when Demandred reflects on how he has changed from his time in Shara.

 

-A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern.

 

-Again, I understand that there were originally going to be outrigger books that would deal with Perrin and Matt. But I felt there was a huge lack of resolution with the Seanchan and even with what Faile becoming Queen of Saldea would mean. Indeed the epilogue was on the whole very lacking and very brief considering the scale of the series.  

 

-Perrins duel with Slayer went on FAR too long. It also undercut his arc as developing into and embracing his role as a leader of men. I get that command is Matts moment. But, he kinda leaves his army for most of the story.

 

-I have no idea what Matt was doing or how he could have predicted any of that happening at the right time. Plus, I don't understand how Matt could bottleneck the Sharans with their ability to travel and it was only at the very end that he thought to do this with the Seanchan to trap the enemy.

 

-lol Min is the Pope. :D

 

-I SOOO wanted to see Hawkwing talk to Tuon. :D That would have been hilarious and it never gets mentioned after. :( 

 

-Would have been neat to have Mayene described. Berelains constant presence peaked my interest.

 

-Graendal being made Gaishan by her own compulsion was lol worthy as well.

 

-Moghedian is a strange loose end to leave. Ironic that the spider truly did outlast them all.

 

-Personally I thought there was nothing wrong with Lanfear redeeming herself in the end. In fact its strange that this is never done with any of the Forsaken in general. Killing her felt a little too harsh since she was IMO the most reasonable of the Forsaken or that she could have been clever enough to escape. 

Edited by False Dragon1991
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-Really did not like how they had Nynaeve as a wielder of Callandor. I can more or less live with Moiraines limited role but if the idea was that Rand would go with women who have had a formative role on him then this should have been Cadsuane. I really think Nynaeve going with Lan and perhaps saving him at one point as well as bonding with her new Malkieri subjects (she is a Queen now) would have been better. Especially since her testing emphasised that she would chose Lan over being an Aes Sedai. Just having her stand there and give herbs to Alanna was very unsatisfying. Yes, technically she and Moiraine trapped Moridin and defeated the DO. But I would have preferred a more prominent role.

 

Rand trusted Nyn completely, and he knew that she wouldn't second guess him, unlike Cadsuane.  Right or wrong, Rand had a plan, and needed someone who would have his back no matter what.  He didn't trust Cad to be that person.

 

-A big problem I had with Rand and the DO. I may be mistaken, but my understanding was that the Pattern as made by the Creator is by its nature neither good nor evil. The Dark One wants to break this system of balance. So I couldn't understand why Rand killing the DO would create a world without free will because nobody can do evil. People doing evil is part of the pattern. That could only happen if Rand also tried to alter the pattern then? Wouldn't killing the dark one still leave a world with free will and where people could do evil? It seemed to be suggesting that the DO is the source of all evil and necessary for the Pattern to work which explicitly contradicts the notion that the DO is NOT part of the pattern.

You make an interesting point.  I'm sure one of the members that has already read the book 10 times could address this better than I could.

 

 

-I have no idea what Matt was doing or how he could have predicted any of that happening at the right time. Plus, I don't understand how Matt could bottleneck the Sharans with their ability to travel and it was only at the very end that he thought to do this with the Seanchan to trap the enemy.

 

Mat was at the pinnacle of his battle badassery.  He was drawing on thousands of years of combat experience, that's how he could predict the flow of battle so well.  As for the Sharans, Egwene had wiped out their channelers, they could no longer travel.  At least not as efficiently as before.

 

 

-Personally I thought there was nothing wrong with Lanfear redeeming herself in the end. In fact its strange that this is never done with any of the Forsaken in general. Killing her felt a little too harsh since she was IMO the most reasonable of the Forsaken or that she could have been clever enough to escape. 

She didn't redeem herself, she played a part to get close to Rand to kill him.  Granted, trying to use Perrin seemed a little contrived, seems she probably could have done it herself.  But killing her wasn't harsh, she was just as evil as she always was.

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Rand trusted Nyn completely, and he knew that she wouldn't second guess him, unlike Cadsuane. Right or wrong, Rand had a plan, and needed someone who would have his back no matter what. He didn't trust Cad to be that person..

Second guess him? Cads has backed Rand to the hilt as much as anyone in the series(see the cleansing as an example). Nyn makes more sense, but certainly not because Cads would second guess him.

 

@False

 

The battles take a fairly large suspension of disbelief to get through at times. It's clearly not what we would have gotten under RJ.

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Rand trusted Nyn completely, and he knew that she wouldn't second guess him, unlike Cadsuane. Right or wrong, Rand had a plan, and needed someone who would have his back no matter what. He didn't trust Cad to be that person..

Second guess him? Cads has backed Rand to the hilt as much as anyone in the series(see the cleansing as an example). Nyn makes more sense, but certainly not because Cads would second guess him.

 

@False

 

The battles take a fairly large suspension of disbelief to get through at times. It's clearly not what we would have gotten under RJ.

 

It's not about what Cad would or wouldn't have actually done, it was about who Rand perceived to be more supportive.  And Rand had far more trust in Nyn than he did in Cad to have his back.

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Again Nyn is the obvious choice but it doesn't necessarily make sense that he didn't trust Cads post DM epiphany.

 

1. She swore on oath to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT.

 

2. She saved his life multiple times throughout the story.

 

3. When told about his plans for the cleansing she doesn't blink an organizes a pitch perfect defense(something Rand didn't even seem to consider) that allowed the whole thing to even happen.

 

In short she has constantly kept her word toward him and worked for his(and all male channelers really) benefit. All though it took a lucky break at the end Rand himself credits her with putting him on the right track to emerge from the darkness.

 

Brandon has admitted bias against the character and IMO that leaked into the story a bit.

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I agree completely, and I'm not saying Cad isn't trustworthy, I just don't think there was any way Rand wouldn't pick Nyn.  Besides, Cad was a far better choice to have on the battlefield than Nyn, despite how much her healing could have helped.

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Phew! It's over, it's really over. I feel a bit like I did when I quit smoking, like something I loved is now gone. I haven't dived into what novellas,fanfiction, etc has been written so maybe I can get a bit more smoke out of this last pack of cigs.  I needed a bit more Mat after the battle was over. Clearly my favorite character.

 

Overall, one of my favorite book series. I've never fist pumped to a book but I did multiple times with this one. I just KNEW Perrin was going to break Lanfear's neck so when it actually happened I was amazed. I thought the ending was great, it wasn't too over-explained. I didn't like the body swap but kinda saw that coming too( when Rand met Morradin in the dream where Morradin told him to leave him alone until the last battle).

 

 Bela, BEELLLAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!! WWWWHHHYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!

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Phew! It's over, it's really over. I feel a bit like I did when I quit smoking, like something I loved is now gone. I haven't dived into what novellas,fanfiction, etc has been written so maybe I can get a bit more smoke out of this last pack of cigs.  I needed a bit more Mat after the battle was over. Clearly my favorite character.

 

Overall, one of my favorite book series. I've never fist pumped to a book but I did multiple times with this one. I just KNEW Perrin was going to break Lanfear's neck so when it actually happened I was amazed. I thought the ending was great, it wasn't too over-explained. I didn't like the body swap but kinda saw that coming too( when Rand met Morradin in the dream where Morradin told him to leave him alone until the last battle).

 

 Bela, BEELLLAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!! WWWWHHHYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!

I actually agree with everything you said!! I feel a tremendous loss!! And when Perrin broke Lanfears neck was awesome!! Lol I just hope that Rand and the girls get to find each other. I feel rally bad that Nynaeve and Tam were not let in on Rands disappearance. They should have been told. This was the end to a vey long wait for me and now I don't know what to do with myself!

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Now that I have had several days to digest the conclusion of the series, I have some observations I would like to share:

  1. I began the series in December of 2011.  I read straight through and really enjoyed every single book.  I kept off of here and Wiki as much as possible to avoid spoiling all the surprises and developments.  While I missed out on the twenty plus years of reading and rereading these novels, I did have the advantage of not getting bogged down in books where the plot did not advance much (CoS, PoD and CoT).  The most highly criticized books were enjoyable to me because I knew the next one was not something I would have to wait a year or two for before it was published.  Without the baggage of wanting more to happen, I was able to really appreciate the subtle plot lines and important foreshadowing that were pivotal to the resolution of the story. 
  2. I have read the criticism of Brandon Sanderson, and I simply find the critiques petty.  TGS, ToM and MoL were paced beautifully, the epic arc completions of each of the major protagonists were spectacular, and the conclusion of the series satisfied almost completely.  Sanderson is not Jordan.  I am sad Jordan did not get to finish, and there is no question Jordan would have done a better job because these were his characters and his story.  That being said, Sanderson was very skilled writing dialogue, and he was great at delivering the plot payoffs.  Certainly, his prose and character development skills were inferior to Jordan's, but how much character development needed to be developed by book 12?  Any argument that he failed to deliver on bringing Rand to the brink and then writing his character post DM epiphany is flat out disingenuous.
  3. As satisfied as I was with the series, there were some payoffs that fell short.  I can accept that Sanderson did not want to interject himself and his own ideas into the story too much.  Sanderson had to complete the series within the framework of the outline and input provided by Team Jordan, but there had to be room for some additional plot.  We deserved more about Moraine once she was rescued.  We lost her for seven plus books.  I simply can't understand why we didn't get several Moraine POV's.  At a minimum, we should have gotten an extensive one after the Dragon's Peace that included her reunion with Lan and Nynaeve.  I also really wanted to see Nyn go to Lan every night after the battle to spend time with him prior to her entering SG.  Nyn revived Malkier, and we never got to see Lan thank her with a passionate moment.  I thoroughly enjoyed Mat slipping SL's dagger into Fain's black heart, but I wanted more on the Shaisam resolution.  I also wanted a better resolution to the Seanchan problem, but I can live with an armistice. I also really wanted to see what Hawkwing said to Fortuona.  I would have loved more time spent resolving the story lines of secondary and tertiary characters like Dobraine, Joline, Setalle, Talmanes, Galad, Berelain post LB.  Finally, I agree that Perrin vs. Slayer was too much.  Perrin came a long way in his development throughout the series.  I loved him as the Wolf King in ToM/MoL, but the story became overkill.  We could have got more plot in exchange for some of the overkill, including but not limited to seeing him and Faile be crowned king and queen of Saldea.  

There is plenty to talk about now that I have read everything, and I look forward to doing so with you all in the future.  

 

Cheers.

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I also wanted a better resolution to the Seanchan problem, but I can live with an armistice.

I think one of the reasons the Seanchan plots weren't tied up is because RJ had planned to use the Seanchan in future material focusing on Mat and Tuon.

 

 

 

As satisfied as I was with the series, there were some payoffs that fell short.  I can accept that Sanderson did not want to interject himself and his own ideas into the story too much.  Sanderson had to complete the series within the framework of the outline and input provided by Team Jordan, but there had to be room for some additional plot

Androl and Pevara's plot-arc was entirely BS, and got more screen time than two of the character's you mention missing out on - Moiraine and Nynaeve.

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For real?  Is that why we didn't get any Narishma?  I did like that arc though.  Although Androl's cryptic, well-traveled past seemed to tread too much on Noal/Jain's archetype.

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For real?  Is that why we didn't get any Narishma?  I did like that arc though.  Although Androl's cryptic, well-traveled past seemed to tread too much on Noal/Jain's archetype.

Yes.  BS (somewhat understandably) wanted to have a character that he could develop on his own/make on his own.  Harriet and TJ gave him Androl, who I think had only been mentioned in passing a couple of times prior to RJ's death.  There plot-arc and relationship was completely written and determined by BS.  Although we're not sure whether some of the actions completed by Androl were things that had to happen but that RJ hadn't allocated a specific Asha'man to achieve them.  There has been quite a bit of discussion about Androl and Pevara, as many people feel that the arc was among the best writing in the final book, but that is balanced against the fact that many fans would have preferred to see more of their favourite characters who were fairly short-changed on screen time, e.g. Moiraine, Nynaeve, Min, etc.

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Thanks for that insight.  I am sure we all would have survived if we got a little less Perrin vs. Slayer in exchange for more Moraine, Nynaeve, Min, etc.  I also would not have objected to additional pages.  I read ToM in like two weeks, but CoT took two months. IMHO, it is not the page count as much as the content that should be the deciding factor in a book.

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I have read the criticism of Brandon Sanderson, and I simply find the critiques petty.

There have been how many pages of well thought out, very valid critique(the people who went overboard can be counted on one hand)and you dismiss it all like that? Why not try addressing some of the actual points made and show why you don't agree.

 

TGS, ToM and MoL were paced beautifully, the epic arc completions of each of the major protagonists were spectacular, and the conclusion of the series satisfied almost completely.

By "paced beautifully" I'm assuming you mean the pace continued to pick up after it did so in KoD? One would hope it would, it has as much to do with where we were in the story arc as anything else though. Not sure I agree with the "beautifully" part given the amount of bloat, filler and structural issues that crept into these last two books.

 

The other two things you mention are of course entirely subjective, glad you enjoyed it so much though.

 

That being said, Sanderson was very skilled writing dialogue,

Many think his dialogue is overly blunt, unnatural and juvenile. I certainly wouldn't call it a strength. Not only where some of the characters voices entirely off(most secondary characters turned into cardboard cutouts) but we got clunkers like the below:

 

""Perhaps. Perhaps not. First, we should negotiate my price for taking you to Andor. I assume you want to reach Caemlyn?"

 

"Price?" Mat said. "But you think the Pattern forced you here! Why demand a price of me?"

 

"Because," she said, raising a finger, "while I waited to find you—I honestly didn't know if it would be you or young Perrin—I realized that there were several things I could provide you that no other could."

She reached into a pocket of her dress, pulling out several pieces of paper. One was the picture of Mat. "You didn't ask where I got this."

 

"You're Aes Sedai," Mat said, shrugging. "I figured you . . . you know, saidared it."

 

"Saidared it?" she asked flatly.

Any argument that he failed to deliver on bringing Rand to the brink and then writing his character post DM epiphany is flat out disingenuous.

Has anyone actually made that argument? Dark Rand was certainly one of Brandon's high moments in the WoT.

 

I can accept that Sanderson did not want to interject himself and his own ideas into the story too much.  Sanderson had to complete the series within the framework of the outline and input provided by Team Jordan, but there had to be room for some additional plot.

But he did interject himself, in fact over half the material in these last three books was all Brandon with zero guidance from the notes. Team Jordan pretty consistently scaled back how robust they were. Even when there were notes they often look like this:

 

Brandon

The thing about the notes is that a lot of the notes were to him, and so he would say things like “I’m going to do this or this” and they’re polar opposites. And so there are sequences like that, where I decide what we’re going to do, and stuff like that. And this all is what became the trilogy that you’re now reading.

&

 

Brandon

I do think I've been able to do some fun things with the series, as a fan, that I've been wanting to do, from reading it since I was a kid, but that's actually a weird things because, as a fan coming on, I had to be careful. You don't always want to do what the inner fan wants you to do; otherwise it just becomes like a sequence of cameos and inside jokes. So I had to be very careful, but there are some things that I've been wanting to have happen, and the notes left a lot of room for me to explore. I did get to have a lot of creative involvement in it; it wasn't just an outline, which has been awesome. You know, if it had been mostly done, they would have been able to hire like a ghostwriter to clean it up, and they didn't have that. They needed an actual writer, and so there are lots of plots I got to construct, and as a fan, that's awesome.

 

 

There has been quite a bit of discussion about Androl and Pevara, as many people feel that the arc was among the best writing in the final book, but that is balanced against the fact that many fans would have preferred to see more of their favourite characters who were fairly short-changed on screen time, e.g. Moiraine, Nynaeve, Min, etc.

In addition to the lack of screen time, Pevara bore little resemblance to the AS we knew before AMoL. I haven't seen all that many people claim it was among the best writing in AMoL. For instance this Isam style summary by Luckers was close to what we got in the absurd double bonding scene:

 

Pevara: I'm Aes Sedai, you're a man who can channel. You scare me.

Androl: I can't trust you.

Pevara: I can help you plan your coup against Taim. He's taken the rest of my sisters. That totally happened. I cried. Off screen.

Androl: You offer yourself as bait?

Pevara: Say what now?

Androl: Ah sarcasm.

Pevara: You really don't know anything about Aes Sedai do you?

Androl: Wait, what about your ideas for the coup?

Pevara: We're discussing Aes Sedai now. Keep up.

Androl: Well, sure I know alot about Aes Sedai. I know all your innermost flaws.

Pevara: So you've spent time studying us?

Androl: Oh no, I've avoided you as best I can.

Pevara: Then how can you know about flaws none but the Wise One's, some Kinswomen and maybe Fortuona know about.

Androl: I read this thread: http://www.dragonmou...f-an-aes-sedai/ . How did you know about those other things?

Pevara: eWoT, idiot. Let's link.

Androl: Well, okay, just so long as you don't freak out on me.

Pevara: Don't be silly. Now, break the laws of physics and initiate the link. Don't worry, I misunderstood something I studied earlier. It will work.

Androl: Okay...

Pevara: ZOMG YOU'RE CONTROLLING ME!!!!! #MindRapeBond

Androl: You said you wouldn't freak out. Just for that... #MindRapeBond.

Pevara: Well, that was certainly interesting.

Androl: Oh yes. I enjoyed it, myself. Look, the door is opening. I, the weak one, will take steps to protect us from the very likely reality that we're about to be Mindraped in a far less congenial way. You just stand there and wax lyrical about the One Power. Good girl.

FanStandInChild: Hey Mum! I'm on TV!!!

Pevara: Calm down sparky, at this stage it's just a book. Now, what terrible news do you have?

FanStandInChild: Weilyn 13.0 just rocked up. You can infer that Logain might suffer the same fate.

Pevara: OH NO NOT LOGAIN!!!!!

Androl: Poor Melare. She seemed nice.

Pevara: Who?

Androl: Never mind. Onward and upward my friends! Into the breach!

Pevara: You're strange. I have a feeling we're going to end up together.

Androl: Say what now?

Brandon: To be continued....

Edited by Suttree
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In addition to the lack of screen time, Pevara bore little resemblance to the AS we knew before AMoL. I haven't seen all that many people claim it was among the best writing in AMoL

Perhaps 'best writing' wasn't the right term to use.  I meant that I had got the impression that quite a lot of people considered the Androl-Pevara arc to be very enjoyable.  I think some of this comes down to it being one of the few arcs in AMoL where we saw any kind of character development or interaction (regardless of the quality).

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I have read the criticism of Brandon Sanderson, and I simply find the critiques petty.

There have been how many pages of well thought out, very valid critique(the people who went overboard can be counted on one hand)and you dismiss it all like that? Why not try addressing some of the actual points made and show why you don't agree.

 

Here's the thing:  I simply do not find the attacks on what BS was asked to do by Harriet and TJ on all of our behalves fair.  Critiques on specific style, prose, narrative etc. is not petty and has a valid place in a forum such as this where people who cared enough about the books seek out an outlet for discourse.  You misread my intent, and maybe it was overly harsh.  I do expect and look forward to argument on particular criticisms, but I have seen acrimonious attacks on BS on this site as well as Westeros.

 

TGS, ToM and MoL were paced beautifully, the epic arc completions of each of the major protagonists were spectacular, and the conclusion of the series satisfied almost completely.

By "paced beautifully" I'm assuming you mean the pace continued to pick up after it did so in KoD? One would hope it would, it has as much to do with where we were in the story arc as anything else though. Not sure I agree with the "beautifully" part given the amount of bloat, filler and structural issues that crept into these last two books.

 

The other two things you mention are of course entirely subjective, glad you enjoyed it so much though.

 

Actually, I meant that the chapter selection, POV's chosen, how to move the story forward through the POV's of secondary/tertiary characters, as well as the actual rhythm of the narrative was paced beautifully.  Obviously, RJ had used CoT and KoD to get everyone in position for completing the individual main protagonists arcs during the finale, so BS's task was facilitated by the story being in position for resolution, but I do believe BS deserves credit for pulling it off.

 

That being said, Sanderson was very skilled writing dialogue,

Many think his dialogue is overly blunt, unnatural and juvenile. I certainly wouldn't call it a strength. Not only where some of the characters voices entirely off(most secondary characters turned into cardboard cutouts) but we got clunkers like the below:

 

I disagree with those perspectives.  Try reading a deposition.  The dialogue had humor, tension, apprehension, and passion.  I reveled in much of it.  Especially Mat's letter to Elayne (not precisely dialogue), Egwene and Verin's last conversation, Rand's reunions with first Perrin then Mat.  I thoroughly enjoyed the dialogue.  Please remember, fantasy is not in and of itself juvenile, but it is geared to a readership that will historically draw 12-21 year old males.  I don't need Faulkner or Hemingway in Fantasy.  I just need to laugh, cry, cringe and smile.  BS's dialogue accomplished all of that for me.

 

I can accept that Sanderson did not want to interject himself and his own ideas into the story too much.  Sanderson had to complete the series within the framework of the outline and input provided by Team Jordan, but there had to be room for some additional plot.

But he did interject himself, in fact over half the material in these last three books was all Brandon with zero guidance from the notes. Team Jordan pretty consistently scaled back how robust they were. Even when there were notes they often look like this:

 

I am actually learning this now.  I honestly did not know he handled the Pevara/Androl story himself and that he interjected himself more than I suspected.  Is it true that RJ actually wrote the majority of the Ghenjei raid?  I am certainly open to discussing what was added and what was necessary or not, but I will not go so far as to stoop to the level of calling his efforts fan faction.  I find that petty, as stated supra.

 

 

 

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Here's the thing:  I simply do not find the attacks on what BS was asked to do by Harriet and TJ on all of our behalves fair.  Critiques on specific style, prose, narrative etc. is not petty and has a valid place in a forum such as this where people who cared enough about the books seek out an outlet for discourse.  You misread my intent, and maybe it was overly harsh.  I do expect and look forward to argument on particular criticisms, but I have seen acrimonious attacks on BS on this site as well as Westeros.

Indeed and as I stated a few people have certainly taken it too far.

 

 

Actually, I meant that the chapter selection, POV's chosen, how to move the story forward through the POV's of secondary/tertiary characters, as well as the actual rhythm of the narrative was paced beautifully.

Agree with credit due in places, disagree with a fair amount of the above. Take moving the story forward for instance, many arcs were artifically stretched out due to the split and it took Brandon a good deal of time to tell certain stories. Take this example of Gawyn for instance:

 

Dom

It's appalling how many POVs and pages Brandon has needed to write that story. Typically, we might have gotten one Gawyn shortish POV in Dorlan (typically prologue stuff) where he learned Egwene's captive, and he is thorn, and then nothing until suddenly he interrupted a Siuan/Bryne scene with a sudden arrival, his growing frustration mentioned only via observations of Siuan from then on (we didn't need a Lelaine scene making completely irrelevant and stupid inquiries about orchards in Andor (!) we just needed a reference by Siuan that Lelaine was manipulating Gawyn, until as a last resort Siuan went to him for the rescue. For the rest, we needed one confrontation with Egwene, and one conversation with Elayne or Bryne or Siuan, not three scenes of the same whining and self-pity, with each of them in turn...

 

Space should have been at a premium even after the split and it certainly wasn't used wisely in places.Not sure why he didn't employ literary devices like ellipsis to advance the action at times. Another example from AMoL is the long "battle" chapter. It really just devolved into video game style "battle porn" with trollocs being used as fodder. It becomes tedious and repetitive. Don't get me wrong, there were some things I liked about it but it could have been cut down a fair bit to help the rythm.

I disagree with those perspectives.  Try reading a deposition.  The dialogue had humor, tension, apprehension, and passion.  I reveled in much of it.  Especially Mat's letter to Elayne (not precisely dialogue), Egwene and Verin's last conversation, Rand's reunions with first Perrin then Mat.  I thoroughly enjoyed the dialogue.  Please remember, fantasy is not in and of itself juvenile, but it is geared to a readership that will historically draw 12-21 year old males.  I don't need Faulkner or Hemingway in Fantasy.  I just need to laugh, cry, cringe and smile.  BS's dialogue accomplished all of that for me.

I very much enjoyed the Verin/Eggy scene although can't say I remember the dialogue all that well. Really disliked the Rand/Mat reunion. That is a key example of unnatural dialogue that felt really forced. I kept expecting one of them to break out a ruler. As for the letter, that one has received a mostly negative response from the fandom. In fact Mat's "voice" was a pretty big issue under BS. Here is what the author himself had to say:

 

BS

I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.

Lastly I don't find that the whole "well it's just fantasy" argument holds much water, especially when we have recent authors like Bakker and going farther back Peake, Crowley or Wolfe. Is it wrong to expect more from a quality perspective?

 

I am actually learning this now.  I honestly did not know he handled the Pevara/Androl story himself and that he interjected himself more than I suspected.  Is it true that RJ actually wrote the majority of the Ghenjei raid?

Yeah the ToG sequence was mainly RJ.

 

Welcome to the community Ghettoe. It is refereshing these days for someone to discuss some of the points being raised and offer examples backing their view. Glad to have you on board.

Edited by Suttree
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