A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[Mooka]

Hi all (finally found time to post again on DM).

 

So, I've seen over and over again references by people who like WoT to Song of Ice and Fire. Being a lunatic for WoT I figured to give it a try as well and I have to say (or ask more like it) - What's so great about it? I'm on Game of Thrones and I'm almost done with it and I have to say it takes a huge effort to actually finish the damn thing. Now, I'm not trying to bust on people who like the series - maybe i'm not getting something or maybe it's just not in my style. I just don't see the "fantasy" part of it. Sound like normal historical politics of Middle Ages. Also, I might be dead wrong on the plot so far, but I feel like I can guess where the whole story is going - there is some unknown external threat and as time goes by the guys that are at each other's throats will join forces (or something like that). I might be wrong on this as well, but one thing i know - unless I'm getting some very serious recommendations I don't think I'm gonna struggle through the rest of the book. I've seen some stories that have a slow start, but this one is def not picking up and I have only 10 chapters to go.

 

P.S. One, I have to admit that "the winter's coming" is a pretty cool saying. Two, the whole sex overload...just not that interesting. I've never understood why a writer would get into details about sex - on a screen, OK, in books...weird. Not a good pick of medium. Just has the feeling of trying to simply stand out in "fantasy" genre (though I'm still kind of not seeing why this book in a "fantasy" department anyways, to me it comes out as good old fiction.)

 

Responses would be greatly appreciated.

 

Maybe its not your cup of tea, but IMO that's the allure of the series. Less of that fantasy feel. There are fantasy elements, but the real powers in the series are things made by men. Politics, economics, religion, history, traditions, etc.

[The Fisher King]

:( Im so sad...I had a wonderful (in my own mind, at least, lol) Point-By-Point analysis of one of the most shocking chapters ever in a fantasy book (the Red Wedding) written up and apparently a nasty group of Cyber Gremlins ate it :(

 

So this one will be a bit more brief. *Sigh*

 

Basically, what are your theories, beliefs, impressions of the event itself - and about what was happening BENEATH the surface, who was all involved in arranging it, who all was behind it, who had the most to gain from it, what each culprit's true motivations were, what actually happened during it, etc...

 

One example of a theory of mine that CHANGED after awhile: Originally I thought it was Old Walder dishing out revenge because of the insult to his House (Robb renouncing his engagement).

 

Pure and Simple.

 

Over the years, however, I have come to believe it was pure capialism that motivated Frey. Tywin bought him and Tywin was motivated by purely political reasons. Or maybe Tywin just threatened Walder into cooperating?

 

Was the girl involved?

 

 

Was the chap in pink who made the comment with the dagger REALLY Roose Bolton? Ive seen alot of fan's post theories over the years that it was NOT - it was a Red Herring, Martin would never be that obvious and clumsy etc etc...

 

 

Was Edmure REALLY oblivious to EVERYTHING that was happening because he was lovemaking????

 

 

Why was the MUSIC so darn LOUD anyway?

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

- Fish

[Red2111]

i went ahead and moved this int the SoF&I thread we have going Fish

 

 

you know, i think that there are alot of movties behind this one, and i agree that Tywin was part of it.

 

in the later books, didn't one of the characters (either Jamie, Cersie, a Fey or Tyrion) say somethign about Twyin having bought the Fey's and that the Wedding was Walder showing Tywin where his alliance was ... soemthign like that? i'm goign off memory, but i want to say it was in the last book during the seige at Catylins dad's castle.

 

 

but if you think about it, Fey is ambitous. his house wasn't a major house and he was trying to secure a spot for the Feys in the future; but he was also spiteful if Cat coudl be believed. the way she talked about Walder was that he's the type of man to cut off his nose to spite his face. so Rob's offense for marrying that other girl would have caused much more than spite. it was a deep offense of the highest kind; seeing as that was Walders security deposite incase Rob's side won.

 

 

then theres also the fact of his ambitiousness. though Jamie was captured, Rob's forces were small in comparision. so he decided to switch his lott and curry favor by killing the competition since he had the opportunity to.

 

 

tbh i think it was a combo of Rob's side looking like it was losing and ROb's actions which were the straw that broke the cammels back. alder was probably in talks with all 3 sides, and Rob's actions (plus with Renly being dead already) Walder decided to stop bluffing and chose a side.

 

 

as for edmure. he's an idiot; chances are between being drunk and ingrossed in his carnal affiars ... yeah i could see him being totally oblivious of what was goign on aroudn him. plus you have to think that Walder woudl have had peopel outside their door shouting the wedding day jests loudly to hel cover the sounds, and his new wife woudl have been in on it too and woudl have made sure he was otherwise occupied.

 

 

 

 

 

i'm confused buy the "guy in pink with the dagger" thing though. i don't remember that.

[The Fisher King]

i went ahead and moved this int the SoF&I thread we have going Fish

 

 

you know, i think that there are alot of movties behind this one, and i agree that Tywin was part of it.

 

in the later books, didn't one of the characters (either Jamie, Cersie, a Fey or Tyrion) say somethign about Twyin having bought the Fey's and that the Wedding was Walder showing Tywin where his alliance was ... soemthign like that? i'm goign off memory, but i want to say it was in the last book during the seige at Catylins dad's castle.

 

 

but if you think about it, Fey is ambitous. his house wasn't a major house and he was trying to secure a spot for the Feys in the future; but he was also spiteful if Cat coudl be believed. the way she talked about Walder was that he's the type of man to cut off his nose to spite his face. so Rob's offense for marrying that other girl would have caused much more than spite. it was a deep offense of the highest kind; seeing as that was Walders security deposite incase Rob's side won.

 

 

then theres also the fact of his ambitiousness. though Jamie was captured, Rob's forces were small in comparision. so he decided to switch his lott and curry favor by killing the competition since he had the opportunity to.

 

 

tbh i think it was a combo of Rob's side looking like it was losing and ROb's actions which were the straw that broke the cammels back. alder was probably in talks with all 3 sides, and Rob's actions (plus with Renly being dead already) Walder decided to stop bluffing and chose a side.

 

 

as for edmure. he's an idiot; chances are between being drunk and ingrossed in his carnal affiars ... yeah i could see him being totally oblivious of what was goign on aroudn him. plus you have to think that Walder woudl have had peopel outside their door shouting the wedding day jests loudly to hel cover the sounds, and his new wife woudl have been in on it too and woudl have made sure he was otherwise occupied.

 

 

 

 

 

i'm confused buy the "guy in pink with the dagger" thing though. i don't remember that.

 

 

Thanks for the indepth reply, Red.

 

 

Alot of good pointd Ill have to think on, but, I will say now that I completely agree with your remarks concerning Edmure. Its almost unbelievable, his behavior. I mean, does any character in the entire series look like a bigger dunce than him?

 

''Guy in pink with the dagger'' was the one who made the comment ''Compliments of Robb Stark.''

 

 

 

- Fish

[Mr Ares]

i'm confused buy the "guy in pink with the dagger" thing though. i don't remember that.

The actual death blow on Robb Stark was struck by a guy in a pink cloak saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." Given pink is a Bolton colour, and Jaime had said "give my regards to Robb Stark" before leaving Bolton's company, it's pretty clear that it's intended to be Roose Bolton. There are, of course, crackpot theories saying it wasn't him. Then again, crackpot theories are never hard to come by. I see no reason to believe it wasn't Roose.

 

As for why Walder did it, it's pretty clear he was prickly about the honour of his house. The Freys don't get the respect he thinks they deserve. Robb marrying some Westerling girl over the Frey he was pledged to was undoubtedly something that would annoy him no end, especially as the Westerlings were an older house, albeit a less wealthy one. I think it's pretty clear that the war wasn't really lost for the Starks until the Red Wedding - which was motivated largely by Bolton's opportunism and Frey's feeling slighted. The Ironborn had three castles, one of them a ruin, and Robb had never lost a battle. Clearly the loss of Winterfell and parts of the North was an embarassment, but it was not a crippling blow. Bolton was always putting his own advancement before the North as a whole (witness his waste of the infantry under his command - men belonging to his rivals - back in AGOT). In ACoK he throws his lot in with Tywin, because he's been offered the North. That's something bigger than Robb could offer him. I don't think there's any real mystery about why the major players were involved.

[Hallow]

A game of Thrones is being made into a Strategy Game for the PC.

 

http://pc.ign.com/articles/115/1150451p1.html

 

Colour me excited.

[The Fisher King]

i'm confused buy the "guy in pink with the dagger" thing though. i don't remember that.

The actual death blow on Robb Stark was struck by a guy in a pink cloak saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." Given pink is a Bolton colour, and Jaime had said "give my regards to Robb Stark" before leaving Bolton's company, it's pretty clear that it's intended to be Roose Bolton. There are, of course, crackpot theories saying it wasn't him. Then again, crackpot theories are never hard to come by. I see no reason to believe it wasn't Roose.

As for why Walder did it, it's pretty clear he was prickly about the honour of his house. The Freys don't get the respect he thinks they deserve. Robb marrying some Westerling girl over the Frey he was pledged to was undoubtedly something that would annoy him no end, especially as the Westerlings were an older house, albeit a less wealthy one. I think it's pretty clear that the war wasn't really lost for the Starks until the Red Wedding - which was motivated largely by Bolton's opportunism and Frey's feeling slighted. The Ironborn had three castles, one of them a ruin, and Robb had never lost a battle. Clearly the loss of Winterfell and parts of the North was an embarassment, but it was not a crippling blow. Bolton was always putting his own advancement before the North as a whole (witness his waste of the infantry under his command - men belonging to his rivals - back in AGOT). In ACoK he throws his lot in with Tywin, because he's been offered the North. That's something bigger than Robb could offer him. I don't think there's any real mystery about why the major players were involved.

 

They're called Red Herrings, ;-)

 

 

- Fish

[Mr Ares]

i'm confused buy the "guy in pink with the dagger" thing though. i don't remember that.

The actual death blow on Robb Stark was struck by a guy in a pink cloak saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." Given pink is a Bolton colour, and Jaime had said "give my regards to Robb Stark" before leaving Bolton's company, it's pretty clear that it's intended to be Roose Bolton. There are, of course, crackpot theories saying it wasn't him. Then again, crackpot theories are never hard to come by. I see no reason to believe it wasn't Roose.

As for why Walder did it, it's pretty clear he was prickly about the honour of his house. The Freys don't get the respect he thinks they deserve. Robb marrying some Westerling girl over the Frey he was pledged to was undoubtedly something that would annoy him no end, especially as the Westerlings were an older house, albeit a less wealthy one. I think it's pretty clear that the war wasn't really lost for the Starks until the Red Wedding - which was motivated largely by Bolton's opportunism and Frey's feeling slighted. The Ironborn had three castles, one of them a ruin, and Robb had never lost a battle. Clearly the loss of Winterfell and parts of the North was an embarassment, but it was not a crippling blow. Bolton was always putting his own advancement before the North as a whole (witness his waste of the infantry under his command - men belonging to his rivals - back in AGOT). In ACoK he throws his lot in with Tywin, because he's been offered the North. That's something bigger than Robb could offer him. I don't think there's any real mystery about why the major players were involved.

They're called Red Herrings, ;-)

No, they're called crackpot theories. But if it is a red herring, to what end?

[Red2111]

hey guys, you've probably seen it on the main board here in the GD section, but Jason has a blog up about the ASoF&I series.

 

check ou the details here.

[Zefram]

George RR Martin hospitalized with e.coli.

 

Fortunately, he's better now. However, comments he's made suggest (not 100% but I can't see it being anything else) that the next big announcement he was planning to make on Sunday was indeed the ADWD completion announcement. Due to the illness, that's going to be pushed back some weeks, maybe a month or so.

 

 

I don't know if anyone checked his blog, but the "2 Big announcements" he was planning are 1) Start date of GoT on HBO and 2) His wedding (?? renewal of vows??) with Paris. Personally its ia big announcement for their family, but nothing on ADWD at ALL!

[Werthead]

The two announcements were the ASoIaF comic adaptation and the completion of ADWD. Both were delayed by his illness, the latter to the extent that makes me doubt if he'd have been able to announce it even if he hadn't been ill.

 

Further news:

 

GRRM has confirmed that it's a toss-up if ASoS or ADWD is the longest book in the series. That confirms that ADWD is in the 1,530-manuscript page ballpark of ASoS (not counting the 100+ MS pages more moved into TWoW).

 

Which means, if it is correct that there's one-and-a-bit more chapters to complete, that the chances of ADWD being split in half in hardcover have almost completely disappeared. That may explain GRRM's recent return to saying that the series will be seven books in length after briefly saying 'seven or eight' last year.

[JenniferL]

This may be of interest to some of you.

 

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html

 

Try not to pee.

[Majsju]

No peeing, but I hyperventilated so much that I passed out, and fell out of my chair. Now I might have a concussion...

[Werthead]

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS will be released on 12 July 2011. That's the final release date for both the UK and USA.

 

Excellent, if very late, news :-)

[hotpocket2006]

Oh em gee!!!! That is so exciting! ^^ Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[graendalzooescapee]

Am I really the first to post this???? Tor supposedly has a July 12 release date for Dance with Dragons.

[Kadere]

Alright, someone slap me, I think I'm still dreaming.

[luftstark]

So what? it's the forth release date? I'm hoping for it, but not expecting it.

 

Let's see....

[Suttree]

So what? it's the forth release date? I'm hoping for it, but not expecting it.

 

Let's see....

 

Here is what GRRM had to say about it, including "this date is different, this date is real"

 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/198122.html

[csarmi]

Well, after four books the only PoV's I can get myself to read are the Kingslayer, Brienne (most of the time), Bran (half the time), Arya (getting very boring lately) and Jon/Samwell mostly. First one I started skipping was Dany then it went downhill. I think the author did a very bad job in introducing new characters. Too strong start on the Starks then who the hell can care wtf that girl does on the other side on the ocean, then all those suckers everywhere.

[Hallow]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

*stops to breathe*

 

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

Great news :D

[Werthead]

So what? it's the forth release date? I'm hoping for it, but not expecting it.

 

Let's see....

 

It's the first. Martin has occasionally given dates he hoped he might be done by, whilst Amazon has been pulling dates out of thin air for years, but this is the first, 100%-agreed-on release date by the author and the publishers.

 

The publishers are moving forwards with a huge marketing campaign including TV spots, so not hitting this date would be a big mistake ;)

[Elend]

It seems my evil chicken sacrifices, burning of noble goats, and hatred of Terry Goodkind finally paid off.

[Jon Paul]

I thought I sensed a rupture in the space time continuum. I was a bit worried but knowing that it was just a release date for ADWD has calmed my fears.

[Gythwyn]

I actually screamed a little when I read it earlier.

 

I happened to be in a Starbucks.

 

 

I didn't care :D