A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[Lynchgrinch]

To make reading Sansa's POV chapters more fun, I used a mental rape-o-meter to gauge her situation. Between Joffery, Cleagan, Tyrion, and Little Fingle, the thing was on defcon 5 nearly the whole time.

 

 

LOL, JUST LOL.

 

GRRM has a seriously dirty mind if you had to use a mental Rape-o-meter!

 

It's what i've been saying! too much rape!! It's not good!

[Majsju]

My problem with aSoIaF, is that there really aren't any good characters. I don't mean that they are not well written (they are) but every character has a reason for the reader to hate them. Characters who don't either get killed or ran through the emotional/physical ringer until they are destroyed. Sometimes I think that GRRM brings his anti-war philosphy into his writing - exaggerating the horrors of war but ignoring the good side of people. It is like his motto is: "Only the Good die young." or "Good guys finish last." It gets annoying sometimes.

 

Heh. Imagine if he had really tried to bring an anti-war stance into the books, and had some hippy-elves as good guys to the extreme. That would have been a snoozefest.

[Mr Ares]

To make reading Sansa's POV chapters more fun, I used a mental rape-o-meter to gauge her situation. Between Joffery, Cleagan, Tyrion, and Little Fingle, the thing was on defcon 5 nearly the whole time.

Just for clarification, do you mean you felt that she was never in danger of being raped, or that you don't know which DEFCON setting is highest?

[hotpocket2006]

Why is everyone ragging on Sansa. Yes at first she was a dumb biatch, but now I think her story arc is going to be completed in the most badass of ways

like her turning on littlefinger and actually becoming the queen of the north or something

I really can't stand that little brat Robert though. I want to strangle him and I wish that he chokes on his own tongue everytime he has one of his fits.

[Rinkai]

To make reading Sansa's POV chapters more fun, I used a mental rape-o-meter to gauge her situation. Between Joffery, Cleagan, Tyrion, and Little Fingle, the thing was on defcon 5 nearly the whole time.

Just for clarification, do you mean you felt that she was never in danger of being raped, or that you don't know which DEFCON setting is highest?

 

It means that I don't know which is highest........well I'm going to go cry myself to sleep now. Thanks Ares.

[Rufae]

Why is everyone ragging on Sansa. Yes at first she was a dumb biatch, but now I think her story arc is going to be completed in the most badass of ways

like her turning on littlefinger and actually becoming the queen of the north or something

I really can't stand that little brat Robert though. I want to strangle him and I wish that he chokes on his own tongue everytime he has one of his fits.

 

 

I think it's clear that Littlefinger plans on using her to forge his own empire. He is tying her to The Eyrie through the proposed marriage. Sansa also has claims to Winterfell and Riverrun through her Stark /Tully roots. Little Finger was given lordship of Harrenhal by King Joffrey. If you look at a map, that's nearly half the landmass of the Seven Kingdoms! Pretty nice take. But as you say, I think Sansa is going to use Littlefinger's training to turn the tables on him.

 

[Red2111]

To make reading Sansa's POV chapters more fun, I used a mental rape-o-meter to gauge her situation. Between Joffery, Cleagan, Tyrion, and Little Fingle, the thing was on defcon 5 nearly the whole time.

 

omg you made me lol out loud at work, now peopel are looking at me wierd. this just made my day

[Werthead]

My problem with aSoIaF, is that there really aren't any good characters. I don't mean that they are not well written (they are) but every character has a reason for the reader to hate them. Characters who don't either get killed or ran through the emotional/physical ringer until they are destroyed.

 

That's true, and either emotional or physical disfigurement is a continuing trope of Martin's work. You see it in FEVRE DREAM (Abner Marsh is a thoroughly good man, but is also fat and ugly), DYING OF THE LIGHT (one of the main characters has a Sandor-style scar, and is actually rather like him) and WILD CARDS (the Wild Card virus turns 90% of the people it affects into mutated freaks).

 

Martin's view, shared by Bakker, is that the events of the average epic fantasy series (battles, fighting, intrigue, supernatural events, constant fear of death) would be highly traumatic for the average person and reduce them to gibbering wrecks after a time, but most epic fantasy writers ignore it. Jordan gave us the 'long dark night of Rand al'Thor' and Perrin had some issues coping, but beyond that most of the people have come through highly disturbing events without a scratch. Put those events onto young children and it's unsurprising that Arya is turning into a sociopath, that Jon Snow is becoming extremely cold and ruthless and so on. Hopefully we will see them coming out the other side (eventually).

 

Sometimes I think that GRRM brings his anti-war philosphy into his writing - exaggerating the horrors of war but ignoring the good side of people. It is like his motto is: "Only the Good die young." or "Good guys finish last." It gets annoying sometimes.

 

Martin seriously lowballs the realities of warfare in a medieval landscape. Even given that the War of the Five Kings is considerably more colossal than any individual war fought in European history (probably only the Hundred Years War comes close), the horror and devastation is still fairly on the low side. Compare it to any major campaign in WWII (particularly something like Leningrad or Stalingrad) and it's a happy walk through the park.

 

The good side of people comes up. The Brotherhood Without Banners under Beric was shown to be a group trying to work for the good of the people, as well as many of the individual wandering septons (walking unarmed around a warzone takes serious faith and balls) and the head of the septry in A FEAST FOR CROWS.

[MierinWru]

Where's the point discussing a series that will never even see the release of the next book?

 

*runs off*

 

 

[SecretlyNinja]

 

Cersei's imprisonment has to be my favorite moment. She just can't believe it happened to her of all people. I also love her name. The mythological character was known for turning men into real pigs and Martin's version just turns them into metaphorical pigs. It's great.

 

 

 

Yes. Cersei's whole imprisonment sequence made me want to get up and start dancing. She'd had it coming since page 1. I especially loved when Margaery called her a "vile, evil, scheming bitch." >:D

Ahhh, karma. Unfortunately, I have a feeling she'll wiggle out of it somehow, seeing as she's apparently going to live to see all her children die and then be killed by her own brother... we shall see, I suppose. Knowing Martin, anything could happen at this point...

[Werthead]

10 full minutes of material from the TV show, mostly behind-the-scenes but some new clips as well.

 

Particularly of interest will be footage of Jaime Lannister (including a conversation with Ned in Winterfell) and a conversation between Ned Stark and Littlefinger, not to mention Viserys Targaryen doing his deluded glory spiel and Benjen Stark telling his nephew Jon how life is on the Wall.

[shinerfan]

eh. Imagine if he had really tried to bring an anti-war stance into the books, and had some hippy-elves as good guys to the extreme. That would have been a snoozefest.

 

 

 

Well, the Children of the Forest are gonna show up one day, (maybe). They played some role in the War for the Dawn but its not clear what it was, just that they used primitive weapons, primitive for Westeros I mean. The Crannogmen have stayed out of the war as well. Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy and apparently saved Ned from Arthur Dane but again we really don't know the details. The Crannogmen have a distinct Cajun feel to them though, and Cajuns have never been known for pacifism. Isolationism maybe. I really love that the Crannogman live in mobile homes in the swamp though.

[Werthead]

On a different track, Voyager have released their new ebook edition of A Game of Thrones. This one is properly formatted for the Kindle (the previous one was a dodgy scan of the print book resulting in huge formatting and spelling errors).

 

Whether an American version or a version for other ereaders is on the way is unclear at this time.

[The Fisher King]

On a different track, Voyager have released their new ebook edition of A Game of Thrones. This one is properly formatted for the Kindle (the previous one was a dodgy scan of the print book resulting in huge formatting and spelling errors).

 

Whether an American version or a version for other ereaders is on the way is unclear at this time.

 

But...But...another year has passed and no You-Know-What...If ADWD isn't out with AMOL in Spring or 2012 I will officially be done with Martin :(

 

- Fish

[Werthead]

I think we're approaching imminently a crunch decision time for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Martin has overcome most of the problems he had with the book and it is structurally complete (i.e. it doesn't appear that any more material needs to be written from scratch for it, just revisions on existing material and maybe rounding off partially-completed chapters). The current issue - and it appears to have been an issue for the last few months - is that Martin and his editors have moved as much extraeneous material as possible to Book 6 and ADWD is still somewhat larger than A STORM OF SWORDS, which was right at the upper edge of what Bantam US felt was economical to publish in one volume.

 

As a result, Bantam need to decide if they can extend the size of the book. On the one hand, paper prices and other costs have risen drastically since 2000 when ASoS was published as one 950-page hardcover and 1,200-page paperback. Yup, Tor can publish the 1,010-page THE WAY OF KINGS and DAW the 920-page WISE MAN'S FEAR, but Bantam and their parent company suffered in the recession more than most publishers (and ADWD appears at the moment to be significantly longer than either of those books, Bantam just use smaller font sizes and more cramped margins to keep the page count down).

 

On the other hand, A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is massively more successful and profitable than it was back in 2000, something that will rise shortly as interest in the TV series grows. So the costs of publishing a book the size of ASoS or somewhat longer will be offset by the many hundreds of thousands of extra hardcover sales that are expected.

 

However, and this may be telling, GRRM has experessed dissatisfaction with the current format of the book, where 50% of it is the 'flipside' of A FEAST FOR CROWS and the other 50% acts as a sequel to AFFC and the first half of ADWD. GRRM may prefer to publish the first half of the book as a new volume in the series that ends at the same moment as AFFC and the second as the continuation of both. This is beneficial as it gets us a book sooner, but it is depressing because it could become a repeat of the AFFC/ADWD split situation. If this happens I think it is essential that GRRM ensures that the second half is complete or almost so at the same time and comes out at best a few months later, instead of tinkering with it and then deciding to thoroughly rewrite it (as happened with ADWD), as that would likely enflame further controversy.

[The Fisher King]

I think we're approaching imminently a crunch decision time for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Martin has overcome most of the problems he had with the book and it is structurally complete (i.e. it doesn't appear that any more material needs to be written from scratch for it, just revisions on existing material and maybe rounding off partially-completed chapters). The current issue - and it appears to have been an issue for the last few months - is that Martin and his editors have moved as much extraeneous material as possible to Book 6 and ADWD is still somewhat larger than A STORM OF SWORDS, which was right at the upper edge of what Bantam US felt was economical to publish in one volume.

 

As a result, Bantam need to decide if they can extend the size of the book. On the one hand, paper prices and other costs have risen drastically since 2000 when ASoS was published as one 950-page hardcover and 1,200-page paperback. Yup, Tor can publish the 1,010-page THE WAY OF KINGS and DAW the 920-page WISE MAN'S FEAR, but Bantam and their parent company suffered in the recession more than most publishers (and ADWD appears at the moment to be significantly longer than either of those books, Bantam just use smaller font sizes and more cramped margins to keep the page count down).

 

On the other hand, A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is massively more successful and profitable than it was back in 2000, something that will rise shortly as interest in the TV series grows. So the costs of publishing a book the size of ASoS or somewhat longer will be offset by the many hundreds of thousands of extra hardcover sales that are expected.

 

However, and this may be telling, GRRM has experessed dissatisfaction with the current format of the book, where 50% of it is the 'flipside' of A FEAST FOR CROWS and the other 50% acts as a sequel to AFFC and the first half of ADWD. GRRM may prefer to publish the first half of the book as a new volume in the series that ends at the same moment as AFFC and the second as the continuation of both. This is beneficial as it gets us a book sooner, but it is depressing because it could become a repeat of the AFFC/ADWD split situation. If this happens I think it is essential that GRRM ensures that the second half is complete or almost so at the same time and comes out at best a few months later, instead of tinkering with it and then deciding to thoroughly rewrite it (as happened with ADWD), as that would likely enflame further controversy.

 

Wert, as always, the update is really appreciated. How you know this stuff is amazing. This time I have to confess: I have no idea what all that means that you are talking about, lol. I hasten to assure you that the difficulty almost certainly lies in my comprehensive ability rather than with your communicative capacity ;-)

 

Wert, I would like to address a few comments to you and then ask you one question about something completely unrelated.

 

First, I will just say that while I understand frustrations that can arise in the publishing sense regarding page number/binding limitations/publication area, I can only sympathize so far. MANY authors over the years have managed to publish LARGE (around 1000 page)books in a series quite well and quite regularly without these issues. Erickson continues to do so quite prolificly while Jordan's TSR/FOH and LOC serve as other examples. Kate Elliot and Melanie Rawn have done so also. To me, it seems that over the years I have heard Martin complain about SO MANY factors that have hindered his writing of the later ASOIAF Books but he is far from the only author in the world charged with churning out a massive mult-book series of around 900-1000 pages each. Again, look a TSR/FOH and LOC as well as Erickson's books and you wonder why they didn't have Martin's seeming recent issues. Pewhaps a better question might be why MARTIN instead hasn't done things THEIR way?

 

Lastly, there is one statistic that makes me feel truly sick: ASOS came out in 1000. Its 2011. In more than a decade - ELEVEN YEARS - Martin has managed to publish only ONE (the subpar AFFC) subsequent mainstream ASOIAF novel???!!! ... INEXCUSABLE no matter what problems he has encountered. And now, SEVEN YEARS in on his ADWD efforts and he STILL isn't happy with whats going on with it?

 

Wert, something is SERIOSULY wrong somewhere. I understand frustration not being equal to a loss of work ethic but I still can not be convinced that he has not lost his passion for ASOIAF - at least the WRITING of it.

 

Thoughts, my friend?

 

Ok, my non-ASOIAF related question. What do you know/think of this Rick Riodran fellow? I'd never heard of him until recently then heard he was pretty bubblegumish and geared towards children. Well, I picked up a copy in a store last week and flipped through and I did NOT get that impression at all! Instead, I was impressed with what I glimpsed. Thoughts?

 

As always, your thoughts are appreciated.

 

 

 

- Fish

 

 

Why Im Thankful To 2010: Getting to hear the phrase ''At the end of the day'' 6 Brazillion times and words like ''Trending'' - ''Fail'' - Epic'' - ''Ownage'' and ''FTW'' (Or is that last one an actual 'word'?) ... Also Im thankful that my suspicions about Graendal were right alll along...That she IS hotter than Halima, Berelain and Lanfear.

 

''I have another man to kill first."- Thom Merrilin; a gleeman and one-time court bard...known by some as 'The Gray Fox' - according to Moiraine Damodred; an Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah.

 

 

WAR The Gray Fox!!!

[Xcom78]

The Fisher King this is whats going on.

 

Translation: I was sitting on the book for so long because the series took years to be developed. Now that HBO picked it up and its going to be released. I am going to take advantage of the publicity to sell more copies. Hey wait if my fans waited this long maybe we can split up the book and sell one each year as the new series starts. That way I can cross promote both the series and the book at the same time!

 

 

Fisher I suspect all the books are finished and waiting to be published.

[The Fisher King]

The Fisher King this is whats going on.

 

Translation: I was sitting on the book for so long because the series took years to be developed. Now that HBO picked it up and its going to be released. I am going to take advantage of the publicity to sell more copies. Hey wait if my fans waited this long maybe we can split up the book and sell one each year as the new series starts. That way I can cross promote both the series and the book at the same time!

 

 

Fisher I suspect all the books are finished and waiting to be published.

 

LOL!!!

 

 

- Fish

[Mr Ares]

I think we're approaching imminently a crunch decision time for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Martin has overcome most of the problems he had with the book and it is structurally complete (i.e. it doesn't appear that any more material needs to be written from scratch for it, just revisions on existing material and maybe rounding off partially-completed chapters). The current issue - and it appears to have been an issue for the last few months - is that Martin and his editors have moved as much extraeneous material as possible to Book 6 and ADWD is still somewhat larger than A STORM OF SWORDS, which was right at the upper edge of what Bantam US felt was economical to publish in one volume.

 

As a result, Bantam need to decide if they can extend the size of the book. On the one hand, paper prices and other costs have risen drastically since 2000 when ASoS was published as one 950-page hardcover and 1,200-page paperback. Yup, Tor can publish the 1,010-page THE WAY OF KINGS and DAW the 920-page WISE MAN'S FEAR, but Bantam and their parent company suffered in the recession more than most publishers (and ADWD appears at the moment to be significantly longer than either of those books, Bantam just use smaller font sizes and more cramped margins to keep the page count down).

 

On the other hand, A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is massively more successful and profitable than it was back in 2000, something that will rise shortly as interest in the TV series grows. So the costs of publishing a book the size of ASoS or somewhat longer will be offset by the many hundreds of thousands of extra hardcover sales that are expected.

 

However, and this may be telling, GRRM has experessed dissatisfaction with the current format of the book, where 50% of it is the 'flipside' of A FEAST FOR CROWS and the other 50% acts as a sequel to AFFC and the first half of ADWD. GRRM may prefer to publish the first half of the book as a new volume in the series that ends at the same moment as AFFC and the second as the continuation of both. This is beneficial as it gets us a book sooner, but it is depressing because it could become a repeat of the AFFC/ADWD split situation. If this happens I think it is essential that GRRM ensures that the second half is complete or almost so at the same time and comes out at best a few months later, instead of tinkering with it and then deciding to thoroughly rewrite it (as happened with ADWD), as that would likely enflame further controversy.

 

Wert, as always, the update is really appreciated. How you know this stuff is amazing. This time I have to confess: I have no idea what all that means that you are talking about, lol. I hasten to assure you that the difficulty almost certainly lies in my comprehensive ability rather than with your communicative capacity ;-)

 

Wert, I would like to address a few comments to you and then ask you one question about something completely unrelated.

 

First, I will just say that while I understand frustrations that can arise in the publishing sense regarding page number/binding limitations/publication area, I can only sympathize so far. MANY authors over the years have managed to publish LARGE (around 1000 page)books in a series quite well and quite regularly without these issues. Erickson continues to do so quite prolificly while Jordan's TSR/FOH and LOC serve as other examples. Kate Elliot and Melanie Rawn have done so also. To me, it seems that over the years I have heard Martin complain about SO MANY factors that have hindered his writing of the later ASOIAF Books but he is far from the only author in the world charged with churning out a massive mult-book series of around 900-1000 pages each. Again, look a TSR/FOH and LOC as well as Erickson's books and you wonder why they didn't have Martin's seeming recent issues. Pewhaps a better question might be why MARTIN instead hasn't done things THEIR way?

 

Lastly, there is one statistic that makes me feel truly sick: ASOS came out in 1000. Its 2011. In more than a decade - ELEVEN YEARS - Martin has managed to publish only ONE (the subpar AFFC) subsequent mainstream ASOIAF novel???!!! ... INEXCUSABLE no matter what problems he has encountered. And now, SEVEN YEARS in on his ADWD efforts and he STILL isn't happy with whats going on with it?

 

Wert, something is SERIOSULY wrong somewhere. I understand frustration not being equal to a loss of work ethic but I still can not be convinced that he has not lost his passion for ASOIAF - at least the WRITING of it.

 

Thoughts, my friend?

The problems Martin faced in the past were largely in the writing of the books. It happens, and I don't see it as "inexcusable". Really, Martin would be left with only limited options: release further "sub-par" books, rather than rewriting until he thinks it is good enough, or rewrite until it's good enough even though that leads to massive waits. Look at how much criticism some of the middle books of WoT get, especially CoT. RJ was in the position with CoT of either trying to rewrite from scratch, thus leading to further delays, or carry on with the structure he'd chosen even though he knew it wasn't really working out as well as he'd hoped. He decided to just finish the book. Martin, in a similar position, went for rewrites. Would you prefer a really long wait or a really bad book? (Admittedly, it's not always one or the other - one can produce good books quickly - but sometimes problems do rear their ugly heads and that can take time to fix) Or one could look at Erikson, whose books have long been plagued with problems, such as masses of bloat, seemingly in a large part because he had to get out a book a year to fulfill his contract and so what got published was essentially a first draft. So other authors publishing big, multi-volume epics have run into similar problems. Also, the current problem, as pointed out, relates to cost (Martin said five chapters left to finish back in October) - Martin's publisher was hit harder than some others, and this book is bigger than WoK, TSR, LoC, TTH, DoD, etc., and publishing costs have risen since ASoS was released, so it might need to be split into two books. Oh, and it's interesting that you mention Melanie Rawn, an author who has kept fans waiting for the last book in one of her trilogies since 1997. That's coming up on fourteen years since the last release, significantly longer than Martin's 5 for ADWD. That should surely be even more inexcusable than Martin's delay, but she apparently gets a pass. Or look at Mervyn Peake - Titus Alone was published in 1959 (and a distinct step down from the earlier two volumes), and it's only in 2011 that we get the next book! 52 years! I know the author died, but that's no excuse.

 

 

 

The Fisher King this is whats going on.

 

Translation: I was sitting on the book for so long because the series took years to be developed. Now that HBO picked it up and its going to be released. I am going to take advantage of the publicity to sell more copies. Hey wait if my fans waited this long maybe we can split up the book and sell one each year as the new series starts. That way I can cross promote both the series and the book at the same time!

 

 

Fisher I suspect all the books are finished and waiting to be published.

I suspect if that is the case, ASoIaF will be the last thing he ever writes, as no publisher will give him another contract if he was that unprofessional. Unless you mean it's a conspiracy, that his publishers are in on it too. And probably the Illuminati.

[Werthead]

First, I will just say that while I understand frustrations that can arise in the publishing sense regarding page number/binding limitations/publication area, I can only sympathize so far. MANY authors over the years have managed to publish LARGE (around 1000 page)books in a series quite well and quite regularly without these issues. Erickson continues to do so quite prolificly while Jordan's TSR/FOH and LOC serve as other examples. Kate Elliot and Melanie Rawn have done so also. To me, it seems that over the years I have heard Martin complain about SO MANY factors that have hindered his writing of the later ASOIAF Books but he is far from the only author in the world charged with churning out a massive mult-book series of around 900-1000 pages each. Again, look a TSR/FOH and LOC as well as Erickson's books and you wonder why they didn't have Martin's seeming recent issues. Pewhaps a better question might be why MARTIN instead hasn't done things THEIR way?

 

Because not all publishers have the same resources. During the recession most book publishers actually rode it out pretty well and some saw their sales shooting up, but Bantam Spectra, who publish GRRM in the USA, had some major problems. Behind the scenes, it is the only SFF publisher that I heard had such difficulties. Tor, who publish Jordan and Erikson in the US, didn't have these problems and their sales increased. The same for DAW (who publish Rothfuss, Rawn and IIRC Elliott). If GRRM was published by Tor or DAW, there wouldn't be this conversation in the first place.

 

In addition, many of the books you mention (not Erikson though) did come out a long time ago when costs (particularly of paper) are much lower than now. One editor told me that he doubts that even Tor would have published THE SHADOW RISING in one volume if it had come out in say 2010 as opposed to 1992, due to the way costs have inflated. They can keep it in print, though, due to the proven sales success of the series and the fact that they now have to only do small print runs for it to keep it on the shelves. Of course, Tor did just publish THE WAY OF KINGS (which is 10,000 words longer than TSR) in one volume so that might not be the whole story.

 

Lastly, there is one statistic that makes me feel truly sick: ASOS came out in 1000. Its 2011. In more than a decade - ELEVEN YEARS - Martin has managed to publish only ONE (the subpar AFFC) subsequent mainstream ASOIAF novel???!!! ... INEXCUSABLE no matter what problems he has encountered. And now, SEVEN YEARS in on his ADWD efforts and he STILL isn't happy with whats going on with it?

 

Martin seems pretty happy with most of ADWD now, and it's certainly taken way longer than was expected to knock it into shape, something that nobody - not Martin, not his publishers nor his readers - are happy about. The reasons for the rewriting and expansion of the book seem to stem from laudable intentions: to make the book better, to give the fans a more 'complete' novel than AFFC, to get as much material as possible in the book to stop the series sliding to eight or more volumes, to cover as many as possible of the AFFC characters so fans don't have to wait another 3/5/37 years to find out what happened to Cersei and Brienne and so on and so forth. Many of the problems Martin inherited with ADWD stem from bad calls made on AFFC, ASoS and even earlier, and that's involved a lot of damage repair and working-on-the-fly without an outline, which has taken a long time to fix.

 

As Mr. Ares says, other fantasy authors have been in the same boat and chosen different paths: Jordan to simply try to write his way out of it and publish ASAP, resulting in some poor books, whilst Erikson has ignored the problems, resulting in bloat, mixed reviews and timelines and characters left in a confused and chaotic jumble (which to some extent his cowriter Esslemont has been left to sort out in his own books). Martin's solution - dealing with it behind the scenes through rewrites - is easily the most frustrating and disheartening choice, but if ADWD turns out to be really good (and AFFC is left as the only 'weak' book in the series, and it's not that weak compared to a lot of fantasy middle volumes) and the last two books come out at more reasonable intervals, it may be all worth it in the long run.

 

Of course, if it comes out and is rubbish, the series is in serious trouble.

 

Ok, my non-ASOIAF related question. What do you know/think of this Rick Riodran fellow?

 

Never heard of him, to be honest.

[The Fisher King]

First, I will just say that while I understand frustrations that can arise in the publishing sense regarding page number/binding limitations/publication area, I can only sympathize so far. MANY authors over the years have managed to publish LARGE (around 1000 page)books in a series quite well and quite regularly without these issues. Erickson continues to do so quite prolificly while Jordan's TSR/FOH and LOC serve as other examples. Kate Elliot and Melanie Rawn have done so also. To me, it seems that over the years I have heard Martin complain about SO MANY factors that have hindered his writing of the later ASOIAF Books but he is far from the only author in the world charged with churning out a massive mult-book series of around 900-1000 pages each. Again, look a TSR/FOH and LOC as well as Erickson's books and you wonder why they didn't have Martin's seeming recent issues. Pewhaps a better question might be why MARTIN instead hasn't done things THEIR way?

 

Because not all publishers have the same resources. During the recession most book publishers actually rode it out pretty well and some saw their sales shooting up, but Bantam Spectra, who publish GRRM in the USA, had some major problems. Behind the scenes, it is the only SFF publisher that I heard had such difficulties. Tor, who publish Jordan and Erikson in the US, didn't have these problems and their sales increased. The same for DAW (who publish Rothfuss, Rawn and IIRC Elliott). If GRRM was published by Tor or DAW, there wouldn't be this conversation in the first place.

 

In addition, many of the books you mention (not Erikson though) did come out a long time ago when costs (particularly of paper) are much lower than now. One editor told me that he doubts that even Tor would have published THE SHADOW RISING in one volume if it had come out in say 2010 as opposed to 1992, due to the way costs have inflated. They can keep it in print, though, due to the proven sales success of the series and the fact that they now have to only do small print runs for it to keep it on the shelves. Of course, Tor did just publish THE WAY OF KINGS (which is 10,000 words longer than TSR) in one volume so that might not be the whole story.

 

Lastly, there is one statistic that makes me feel truly sick: ASOS came out in 1000. Its 2011. In more than a decade - ELEVEN YEARS - Martin has managed to publish only ONE (the subpar AFFC) subsequent mainstream ASOIAF novel???!!! ... INEXCUSABLE no matter what problems he has encountered. And now, SEVEN YEARS in on his ADWD efforts and he STILL isn't happy with whats going on with it?

 

Martin seems pretty happy with most of ADWD now, and it's certainly taken way longer than was expected to knock it into shape, something that nobody - not Martin, not his publishers nor his readers - are happy about. The reasons for the rewriting and expansion of the book seem to stem from laudable intentions: to make the book better, to give the fans a more 'complete' novel than AFFC, to get as much material as possible in the book to stop the series sliding to eight or more volumes, to cover as many as possible of the AFFC characters so fans don't have to wait another 3/5/37 years to find out what happened to Cersei and Brienne and so on and so forth. Many of the problems Martin inherited with ADWD stem from bad calls made on AFFC, ASoS and even earlier, and that's involved a lot of damage repair and working-on-the-fly without an outline, which has taken a long time to fix.

 

As Mr. Ares says, other fantasy authors have been in the same boat and chosen different paths: Jordan to simply try to write his way out of it and publish ASAP, resulting in some poor books, whilst Erikson has ignored the problems, resulting in bloat, mixed reviews and timelines and characters left in a confused and chaotic jumble (which to some extent his cowriter Esslemont has been left to sort out in his own books). Martin's solution - dealing with it behind the scenes through rewrites - is easily the most frustrating and disheartening choice, but if ADWD turns out to be really good (and AFFC is left as the only 'weak' book in the series, and it's not that weak compared to a lot of fantasy middle volumes) and the last two books come out at more reasonable intervals, it may be all worth it in the long run.

 

Of course, if it comes out and is rubbish, the series is in serious trouble.

 

Ok, my non-ASOIAF related question. What do you know/think of this Rick Riodran fellow?

 

Never heard of him, to be honest.

 

 

Enlightening, educational and very, very interesting. Thank you for the timely and thought-out response, Wert.

 

 

- Fish

[The Fisher King]

I think we're approaching imminently a crunch decision time for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Martin has overcome most of the problems he had with the book and it is structurally complete (i.e. it doesn't appear that any more material needs to be written from scratch for it, just revisions on existing material and maybe rounding off partially-completed chapters). The current issue - and it appears to have been an issue for the last few months - is that Martin and his editors have moved as much extraeneous material as possible to Book 6 and ADWD is still somewhat larger than A STORM OF SWORDS, which was right at the upper edge of what Bantam US felt was economical to publish in one volume.

 

As a result, Bantam need to decide if they can extend the size of the book. On the one hand, paper prices and other costs have risen drastically since 2000 when ASoS was published as one 950-page hardcover and 1,200-page paperback. Yup, Tor can publish the 1,010-page THE WAY OF KINGS and DAW the 920-page WISE MAN'S FEAR, but Bantam and their parent company suffered in the recession more than most publishers (and ADWD appears at the moment to be significantly longer than either of those books, Bantam just use smaller font sizes and more cramped margins to keep the page count down).

 

On the other hand, A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is massively more successful and profitable than it was back in 2000, something that will rise shortly as interest in the TV series grows. So the costs of publishing a book the size of ASoS or somewhat longer will be offset by the many hundreds of thousands of extra hardcover sales that are expected.

 

However, and this may be telling, GRRM has experessed dissatisfaction with the current format of the book, where 50% of it is the 'flipside' of A FEAST FOR CROWS and the other 50% acts as a sequel to AFFC and the first half of ADWD. GRRM may prefer to publish the first half of the book as a new volume in the series that ends at the same moment as AFFC and the second as the continuation of both. This is beneficial as it gets us a book sooner, but it is depressing because it could become a repeat of the AFFC/ADWD split situation. If this happens I think it is essential that GRRM ensures that the second half is complete or almost so at the same time and comes out at best a few months later, instead of tinkering with it and then deciding to thoroughly rewrite it (as happened with ADWD), as that would likely enflame further controversy.

 

Wert, as always, the update is really appreciated. How you know this stuff is amazing. This time I have to confess: I have no idea what all that means that you are talking about, lol. I hasten to assure you that the difficulty almost certainly lies in my comprehensive ability rather than with your communicative capacity ;-)

 

Wert, I would like to address a few comments to you and then ask you one question about something completely unrelated.

 

First, I will just say that while I understand frustrations that can arise in the publishing sense regarding page number/binding limitations/publication area, I can only sympathize so far. MANY authors over the years have managed to publish LARGE (around 1000 page)books in a series quite well and quite regularly without these issues. Erickson continues to do so quite prolificly while Jordan's TSR/FOH and LOC serve as other examples. Kate Elliot and Melanie Rawn have done so also. To me, it seems that over the years I have heard Martin complain about SO MANY factors that have hindered his writing of the later ASOIAF Books but he is far from the only author in the world charged with churning out a massive mult-book series of around 900-1000 pages each. Again, look a TSR/FOH and LOC as well as Erickson's books and you wonder why they didn't have Martin's seeming recent issues. Pewhaps a better question might be why MARTIN instead hasn't done things THEIR way?

 

Lastly, there is one statistic that makes me feel truly sick: ASOS came out in 1000. Its 2011. In more than a decade - ELEVEN YEARS - Martin has managed to publish only ONE (the subpar AFFC) subsequent mainstream ASOIAF novel???!!! ... INEXCUSABLE no matter what problems he has encountered. And now, SEVEN YEARS in on his ADWD efforts and he STILL isn't happy with whats going on with it?

 

Wert, something is SERIOSULY wrong somewhere. I understand frustration not being equal to a loss of work ethic but I still can not be convinced that he has not lost his passion for ASOIAF - at least the WRITING of it.

 

Thoughts, my friend?

The problems Martin faced in the past were largely in the writing of the books. It happens, and I don't see it as "inexcusable". Really, Martin would be left with only limited options: release further "sub-par" books, rather than rewriting until he thinks it is good enough, or rewrite until it's good enough even though that leads to massive waits. Look at how much criticism some of the middle books of WoT get, especially CoT. RJ was in the position with CoT of either trying to rewrite from scratch, thus leading to further delays, or carry on with the structure he'd chosen even though he knew it wasn't really working out as well as he'd hoped. He decided to just finish the book. Martin, in a similar position, went for rewrites. Would you prefer a really long wait or a really bad book? (Admittedly, it's not always one or the other - one can produce good books quickly - but sometimes problems do rear their ugly heads and that can take time to fix) Or one could look at Erikson, whose books have long been plagued with problems, such as masses of bloat, seemingly in a large part because he had to get out a book a year to fulfill his contract and so what got published was essentially a first draft. So other authors publishing big, multi-volume epics have run into similar problems. Also, the current problem, as pointed out, relates to cost (Martin said five chapters left to finish back in October) - Martin's publisher was hit harder than some others, and this book is bigger than WoK, TSR, LoC, TTH, DoD, etc., and publishing costs have risen since ASoS was released, so it might need to be split into two books. Oh, and it's interesting that you mention Melanie Rawn, an author who has kept fans waiting for the last book in one of her trilogies since 1997. That's coming up on fourteen years since the last release, significantly longer than Martin's 5 for ADWD. That should surely be even more inexcusable than Martin's delay, but she apparently gets a pass. Or look at Mervyn Peake - Titus Alone was published in 1959 (and a distinct step down from the earlier two volumes), and it's only in 2011 that we get the next book! 52 years! I know the author died, but that's no excuse.

 

 

 

The Fisher King this is whats going on.

 

Translation: I was sitting on the book for so long because the series took years to be developed. Now that HBO picked it up and its going to be released. I am going to take advantage of the publicity to sell more copies. Hey wait if my fans waited this long maybe we can split up the book and sell one each year as the new series starts. That way I can cross promote both the series and the book at the same time!

 

 

Fisher I suspect all the books are finished and waiting to be published.

I suspect if that is the case, ASoIaF will be the last thing he ever writes, as no publisher will give him another contract if he was that unprofessional. Unless you mean it's a conspiracy, that his publishers are in on it too. And probably the Illuminati.

 

Mr Sir;

 

I may have been unintentionally ambiguous with regards to my use of ''inexcusable'' - certainly 'real world' matters (family problems, health concerns, etc) are valid excuses to the delay of a fantasy book being written. I meant no matter the ''issues'' he has faced WITHIN the publishing/writing realm there is no excuse for these delays. I understand and appreciate your reasoning, but, first of all, I quite enjoyed COT and also, I would simply say: Look at GRRM'S contemporaries. Many have published large, quality books within a series at a rate far more frequent than one every seven years. Regardless, you made some really interesting points that I enjoyed reading. I even had a cup of coffee while reading them.

 

At any rate, its good to see that you are not ALWAYS a Big Meanie.

 

 

- Fish

[Mr Ares]

I think we're approaching imminently a crunch decision time for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Martin has overcome most of the problems he had with the book and it is structurally complete (i.e. it doesn't appear that any more material needs to be written from scratch for it, just revisions on existing material and maybe rounding off partially-completed chapters). The current issue - and it appears to have been an issue for the last few months - is that Martin and his editors have moved as much extraeneous material as possible to Book 6 and ADWD is still somewhat larger than A STORM OF SWORDS, which was right at the upper edge of what Bantam US felt was economical to publish in one volume.

 

As a result, Bantam need to decide if they can extend the size of the book. On the one hand, paper prices and other costs have risen drastically since 2000 when ASoS was published as one 950-page hardcover and 1,200-page paperback. Yup, Tor can publish the 1,010-page THE WAY OF KINGS and DAW the 920-page WISE MAN'S FEAR, but Bantam and their parent company suffered in the recession more than most publishers (and ADWD appears at the moment to be significantly longer than either of those books, Bantam just use smaller font sizes and more cramped margins to keep the page count down).

 

On the other hand, A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is massively more successful and profitable than it was back in 2000, something that will rise shortly as interest in the TV series grows. So the costs of publishing a book the size of ASoS or somewhat longer will be offset by the many hundreds of thousands of extra hardcover sales that are expected.

 

However, and this may be telling, GRRM has experessed dissatisfaction with the current format of the book, where 50% of it is the 'flipside' of A FEAST FOR CROWS and the other 50% acts as a sequel to AFFC and the first half of ADWD. GRRM may prefer to publish the first half of the book as a new volume in the series that ends at the same moment as AFFC and the second as the continuation of both. This is beneficial as it gets us a book sooner, but it is depressing because it could become a repeat of the AFFC/ADWD split situation. If this happens I think it is essential that GRRM ensures that the second half is complete or almost so at the same time and comes out at best a few months later, instead of tinkering with it and then deciding to thoroughly rewrite it (as happened with ADWD), as that would likely enflame further controversy.

 

Wert, as always, the update is really appreciated. How you know this stuff is amazing. This time I have to confess: I have no idea what all that means that you are talking about, lol. I hasten to assure you that the difficulty almost certainly lies in my comprehensive ability rather than with your communicative capacity ;-)

 

Wert, I would like to address a few comments to you and then ask you one question about something completely unrelated.

 

First, I will just say that while I understand frustrations that can arise in the publishing sense regarding page number/binding limitations/publication area, I can only sympathize so far. MANY authors over the years have managed to publish LARGE (around 1000 page)books in a series quite well and quite regularly without these issues. Erickson continues to do so quite prolificly while Jordan's TSR/FOH and LOC serve as other examples. Kate Elliot and Melanie Rawn have done so also. To me, it seems that over the years I have heard Martin complain about SO MANY factors that have hindered his writing of the later ASOIAF Books but he is far from the only author in the world charged with churning out a massive mult-book series of around 900-1000 pages each. Again, look a TSR/FOH and LOC as well as Erickson's books and you wonder why they didn't have Martin's seeming recent issues. Pewhaps a better question might be why MARTIN instead hasn't done things THEIR way?

 

Lastly, there is one statistic that makes me feel truly sick: ASOS came out in 1000. Its 2011. In more than a decade - ELEVEN YEARS - Martin has managed to publish only ONE (the subpar AFFC) subsequent mainstream ASOIAF novel???!!! ... INEXCUSABLE no matter what problems he has encountered. And now, SEVEN YEARS in on his ADWD efforts and he STILL isn't happy with whats going on with it?

 

Wert, something is SERIOSULY wrong somewhere. I understand frustration not being equal to a loss of work ethic but I still can not be convinced that he has not lost his passion for ASOIAF - at least the WRITING of it.

 

Thoughts, my friend?

The problems Martin faced in the past were largely in the writing of the books. It happens, and I don't see it as "inexcusable". Really, Martin would be left with only limited options: release further "sub-par" books, rather than rewriting until he thinks it is good enough, or rewrite until it's good enough even though that leads to massive waits. Look at how much criticism some of the middle books of WoT get, especially CoT. RJ was in the position with CoT of either trying to rewrite from scratch, thus leading to further delays, or carry on with the structure he'd chosen even though he knew it wasn't really working out as well as he'd hoped. He decided to just finish the book. Martin, in a similar position, went for rewrites. Would you prefer a really long wait or a really bad book? (Admittedly, it's not always one or the other - one can produce good books quickly - but sometimes problems do rear their ugly heads and that can take time to fix) Or one could look at Erikson, whose books have long been plagued with problems, such as masses of bloat, seemingly in a large part because he had to get out a book a year to fulfill his contract and so what got published was essentially a first draft. So other authors publishing big, multi-volume epics have run into similar problems. Also, the current problem, as pointed out, relates to cost (Martin said five chapters left to finish back in October) - Martin's publisher was hit harder than some others, and this book is bigger than WoK, TSR, LoC, TTH, DoD, etc., and publishing costs have risen since ASoS was released, so it might need to be split into two books. Oh, and it's interesting that you mention Melanie Rawn, an author who has kept fans waiting for the last book in one of her trilogies since 1997. That's coming up on fourteen years since the last release, significantly longer than Martin's 5 for ADWD. That should surely be even more inexcusable than Martin's delay, but she apparently gets a pass. Or look at Mervyn Peake - Titus Alone was published in 1959 (and a distinct step down from the earlier two volumes), and it's only in 2011 that we get the next book! 52 years! I know the author died, but that's no excuse.

 

 

 

The Fisher King this is whats going on.

 

Translation: I was sitting on the book for so long because the series took years to be developed. Now that HBO picked it up and its going to be released. I am going to take advantage of the publicity to sell more copies. Hey wait if my fans waited this long maybe we can split up the book and sell one each year as the new series starts. That way I can cross promote both the series and the book at the same time!

 

 

Fisher I suspect all the books are finished and waiting to be published.

I suspect if that is the case, ASoIaF will be the last thing he ever writes, as no publisher will give him another contract if he was that unprofessional. Unless you mean it's a conspiracy, that his publishers are in on it too. And probably the Illuminati.

 

Mr Sir;

 

I may have been unintentionally ambiguous with regards to my use of ''inexcusable'' - certainly 'real world' matters (family problems, health concerns, etc) are valid excuses to the delay of a fantasy book being written. I meant no matter the ''issues'' he has faced WITHIN the publishing/writing realm there is no excuse for these delays.

If one is having difficulty writing a book, how long is excusable? Should one publish an inferior manuscript just because a certain number of years have passed, or keep trying to produce the best book one can?

I understand and appreciate your reasoning, but, first of all, I quite enjoyed COT and also, I would simply say: Look at GRRM'S contemporaries. Many have published large, quality books within a series at a rate far more frequent than one every seven years. Regardless, you made some really interesting points that I enjoyed reading. I even had a cup of coffee while reading them.

Leaving aside your personal feelings towards CoT, there is really no denying that it has had an overwhelmingly negative response. Looking at Martin's contemporaries, I would say: none of them have the critical success he does. The issue is not so much producing a really big book, it is producing a really big book that stands up alongside previous books in the series. So it has to be really good. He might have been able to get ADWD out before if he was willing to produce another "sub-par" book. But he wasn't. He wants to produce the best book he can - a perfectionist streak that would be wonderful in a faster writer, but is somewhat frustrating in Martin. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting one book every seven years from? It's been a little over five since AFFC, and it was five years between that and ASOS. In fact, average out the lengths in the series: 1996-2011 (assuming ADWD hits this year) is fifteen years, divide by five books and you average a book every three years.

 

At any rate, its good to see that you are not ALWAYS a Big Meanie.

But we don't want that getting out.

[The Fisher King]

I think we're approaching imminently a crunch decision time for A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Martin has overcome most of the problems he had with the book and it is structurally complete (i.e. it doesn't appear that any more material needs to be written from scratch for it, just revisions on existing material and maybe rounding off partially-completed chapters). The current issue - and it appears to have been an issue for the last few months - is that Martin and his editors have moved as much extraeneous material as possible to Book 6 and ADWD is still somewhat larger than A STORM OF SWORDS, which was right at the upper edge of what Bantam US felt was economical to publish in one volume.

 

As a result, Bantam need to decide if they can extend the size of the book. On the one hand, paper prices and other costs have risen drastically since 2000 when ASoS was published as one 950-page hardcover and 1,200-page paperback. Yup, Tor can publish the 1,010-page THE WAY OF KINGS and DAW the 920-page WISE MAN'S FEAR, but Bantam and their parent company suffered in the recession more than most publishers (and ADWD appears at the moment to be significantly longer than either of those books, Bantam just use smaller font sizes and more cramped margins to keep the page count down).

 

On the other hand, A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is massively more successful and profitable than it was back in 2000, something that will rise shortly as interest in the TV series grows. So the costs of publishing a book the size of ASoS or somewhat longer will be offset by the many hundreds of thousands of extra hardcover sales that are expected.

 

However, and this may be telling, GRRM has experessed dissatisfaction with the current format of the book, where 50% of it is the 'flipside' of A FEAST FOR CROWS and the other 50% acts as a sequel to AFFC and the first half of ADWD. GRRM may prefer to publish the first half of the book as a new volume in the series that ends at the same moment as AFFC and the second as the continuation of both. This is beneficial as it gets us a book sooner, but it is depressing because it could become a repeat of the AFFC/ADWD split situation. If this happens I think it is essential that GRRM ensures that the second half is complete or almost so at the same time and comes out at best a few months later, instead of tinkering with it and then deciding to thoroughly rewrite it (as happened with ADWD), as that would likely enflame further controversy.

 

Wert, as always, the update is really appreciated. How you know this stuff is amazing. This time I have to confess: I have no idea what all that means that you are talking about, lol. I hasten to assure you that the difficulty almost certainly lies in my comprehensive ability rather than with your communicative capacity ;-)

 

Wert, I would like to address a few comments to you and then ask you one question about something completely unrelated.

 

First, I will just say that while I understand frustrations that can arise in the publishing sense regarding page number/binding limitations/publication area, I can only sympathize so far. MANY authors over the years have managed to publish LARGE (around 1000 page)books in a series quite well and quite regularly without these issues. Erickson continues to do so quite prolificly while Jordan's TSR/FOH and LOC serve as other examples. Kate Elliot and Melanie Rawn have done so also. To me, it seems that over the years I have heard Martin complain about SO MANY factors that have hindered his writing of the later ASOIAF Books but he is far from the only author in the world charged with churning out a massive mult-book series of around 900-1000 pages each. Again, look a TSR/FOH and LOC as well as Erickson's books and you wonder why they didn't have Martin's seeming recent issues. Pewhaps a better question might be why MARTIN instead hasn't done things THEIR way?

 

Lastly, there is one statistic that makes me feel truly sick: ASOS came out in 1000. Its 2011. In more than a decade - ELEVEN YEARS - Martin has managed to publish only ONE (the subpar AFFC) subsequent mainstream ASOIAF novel???!!! ... INEXCUSABLE no matter what problems he has encountered. And now, SEVEN YEARS in on his ADWD efforts and he STILL isn't happy with whats going on with it?

 

Wert, something is SERIOSULY wrong somewhere. I understand frustration not being equal to a loss of work ethic but I still can not be convinced that he has not lost his passion for ASOIAF - at least the WRITING of it.

 

Thoughts, my friend?

The problems Martin faced in the past were largely in the writing of the books. It happens, and I don't see it as "inexcusable". Really, Martin would be left with only limited options: release further "sub-par" books, rather than rewriting until he thinks it is good enough, or rewrite until it's good enough even though that leads to massive waits. Look at how much criticism some of the middle books of WoT get, especially CoT. RJ was in the position with CoT of either trying to rewrite from scratch, thus leading to further delays, or carry on with the structure he'd chosen even though he knew it wasn't really working out as well as he'd hoped. He decided to just finish the book. Martin, in a similar position, went for rewrites. Would you prefer a really long wait or a really bad book? (Admittedly, it's not always one or the other - one can produce good books quickly - but sometimes problems do rear their ugly heads and that can take time to fix) Or one could look at Erikson, whose books have long been plagued with problems, such as masses of bloat, seemingly in a large part because he had to get out a book a year to fulfill his contract and so what got published was essentially a first draft. So other authors publishing big, multi-volume epics have run into similar problems. Also, the current problem, as pointed out, relates to cost (Martin said five chapters left to finish back in October) - Martin's publisher was hit harder than some others, and this book is bigger than WoK, TSR, LoC, TTH, DoD, etc., and publishing costs have risen since ASoS was released, so it might need to be split into two books. Oh, and it's interesting that you mention Melanie Rawn, an author who has kept fans waiting for the last book in one of her trilogies since 1997. That's coming up on fourteen years since the last release, significantly longer than Martin's 5 for ADWD. That should surely be even more inexcusable than Martin's delay, but she apparently gets a pass. Or look at Mervyn Peake - Titus Alone was published in 1959 (and a distinct step down from the earlier two volumes), and it's only in 2011 that we get the next book! 52 years! I know the author died, but that's no excuse.

 

 

 

The Fisher King this is whats going on.

 

Translation: I was sitting on the book for so long because the series took years to be developed. Now that HBO picked it up and its going to be released. I am going to take advantage of the publicity to sell more copies. Hey wait if my fans waited this long maybe we can split up the book and sell one each year as the new series starts. That way I can cross promote both the series and the book at the same time!

 

 

Fisher I suspect all the books are finished and waiting to be published.

I suspect if that is the case, ASoIaF will be the last thing he ever writes, as no publisher will give him another contract if he was that unprofessional. Unless you mean it's a conspiracy, that his publishers are in on it too. And probably the Illuminati.

 

Mr Sir;

 

I may have been unintentionally ambiguous with regards to my use of ''inexcusable'' - certainly 'real world' matters (family problems, health concerns, etc) are valid excuses to the delay of a fantasy book being written. I meant no matter the ''issues'' he has faced WITHIN the publishing/writing realm there is no excuse for these delays.

If one is having difficulty writing a book, how long is excusable? Should one publish an inferior manuscript just because a certain number of years have passed, or keep trying to produce the best book one can?

I understand and appreciate your reasoning, but, first of all, I quite enjoyed COT and also, I would simply say: Look at GRRM'S contemporaries. Many have published large, quality books within a series at a rate far more frequent than one every seven years. Regardless, you made some really interesting points that I enjoyed reading. I even had a cup of coffee while reading them.

Leaving aside your personal feelings towards CoT, there is really no denying that it has had an overwhelmingly negative response. Looking at Martin's contemporaries, I would say: none of them have the critical success he does. The issue is not so much producing a really big book, it is producing a really big book that stands up alongside previous books in the series. So it has to be really good. He might have been able to get ADWD out before if he was willing to produce another "sub-par" book. But he wasn't. He wants to produce the best book he can - a perfectionist streak that would be wonderful in a faster writer, but is somewhat frustrating in Martin. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting one book every seven years from? It's been a little over five since AFFC, and it was five years between that and ASOS. In fact, average out the lengths in the series: 1996-2011 (assuming ADWD hits this year) is fifteen years, divide by five books and you average a book every three years.

 

At any rate, its good to see that you are not ALWAYS a Big Meanie.

But we don't want that getting out.

 

 

Alot of fair points. As for the whole ''One book in seven years/one book on an average of every 3 years'' thing...thats really just a matter of semantics - How you twist the numbers. Another way of looking at it is saying he has only published one ASOIAF in 10 years. A decade. (2001 - 2011) ... ASOS was published in 2000.

 

As far as the quality of COT or AFFC, well, its all subjective - fiction is a matter of personal preference, reader opinion, as it were.

 

I really enjoyed COT, but you are correct in that there CERTAINLY has always been a LARGE portion of the readership that has been vocal and sincere in their dissatisfaction with that volume.

 

As for AFFC - Again, many felt displeasure with it. I was one of them, though there were a few ELEMENTS (Jamie's chapters, seeing Petyr through Sansa's eyes, however brief) but overall I found it lacking.

 

You make fair points. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He finally just pushed AFFC out there for the fans and in response it became the most negatively-criticized volume of the series.

 

Now, with ADWD, he takes his time...takes his time...takes his time....in order to make it the best book he can before releasing the product and he catches Holy Hell for taking so long.

 

I get the conundrum, I really do.

 

Again, I can just point to his contemporary colleagues. Why are the Jordan's/Erikson's/Goodkinds (*shudder*)/ Hobbs/Tad Williams of the world able to consistently do what GRRM has been unable to do for the last decade?

 

Sure, COT wasn't (according to many, not me), the best WOT Installment, but SR/FOH/LOC were outstanding.

 

Thats all Im saying.

 

(As for the other matter matter, your desire for discretion is certainly understandable).

 

 

- Fish

[Werthead]

On a slightly different note, A GAME OF THRONES has finally - after fourteen-and-a-half years - become a NYT bestseller. That took long enough :)