How powerful is Nynaeve with that angreal of hers?

[Suttree]

So no quote? Have a good day Nightstrike. Cheers.

[Nightstrike]

Egwene thought she could not have done what Rand did, so maybe he's more dexterous than her? She couldn't have divided her flows that many ways, he didn't even look tired, and she feared he could drown them like kittens. The weaves he used weren't even used against Elayne and Egwene, but they were things he did while shielding them. It's said to be more difficult to shield someone/-s of the opposite sex. Didn't matter to him.

 

Dexterity is never specified to matter in a duelling situation.

[Suttree]

Please just once can we not do this. If you wish to further the discussion just provide the quote. You claiming something is not the same as a quote with direct wording. I mean just look at how you skew the Talaan v. Nyn duel into a situation where strength played a role despite direct textual evidence that it did not.

 

Bottom line it's pretty standard when one is backing their opinion to provide a quote. I mean you are already clearly evading having to deal with l the evidence I provided so the least you can do is provide your own quote. As I said earlier if you don't feel like it then there is no reason to continue. Agree to disagree. Have a good one.

[Nightstrike]

You haven't given quotes to prove anything you say. I am just supposed to take your word for it, and that's not good enough.

[Suttree]

Dexterity is never specified to matter in a duelling situation.

 

Lol...

 

WH

She was ready for the girl's trick this time. Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

 

You haven't given quotes to prove anything you say. I am just supposed to take your word for it, and that's not good enough.

 

It's not my words though. Go back to post #67 and explain away each quote (show us how strength not dexterity won the duel for Talaan, explain away the RJ quote where knowledge wins despite Alivia being "by far stronger"). Do that and provide the quote you are referring to. I've asked you politely how many times now?

 

As for Rand I have no doubt that he can split flows more time than Egwene, likely he is more dexterous as well(although we know woman have an advantage in general there). All that aside Egwene can do things like this, despite being stoned on forkroot.

 

KoD

Instead, she channeled Fire and Air to produce a small ball of green fire that floated in front of her. A pale, pitiful thing it was, actually transparent.

“Very good,” Idrelle said sarcastically. All, yes. She had just wanted to begin by showing the novices how weak Egwene’s channeling was. “Release saidar. Now, class-”

Egwene added a blue ball, then a brown, and a gray, making them spin around one another.

“Release the Source!” Idrelle said brusquely.

A yellow ball joined the others, a white, and finally, a red ball. Quickly she added rings of fire one inside the other around the whirling balls. Red came first this time, because she wanted it smallest, green last and largest. Had she been able to choose an Ajah, it would have been the Green. Seven rings of fire rotated, no two in the same direction, around seven balls of fire that carried out an intricate dance at the heart. Pale and thin they might be, yet it was an impressive display beyond dividing her flows fourteen ways. Juggling with the Power was not all that much easier than juggling with your hands.

“Stop that!” Idrelle shouted. “Stop it!” The glow of saidar enveloped the teacher, and a switch of Air struck Egwene hard across the back. “I said stop it!” The switch struck again, then again.

Egwene calmly kept the rings spinning, the balls dancing. After Silviana’s hard-swung slipper, it was easy to drink in the pain of Idrelle’s blows. If not to welcome it. Would she ever be able to smile while she was being beaten?

As anyone reading the thread can see I am the only one who has provided quotes in this discussion. This is where I bow out until you address them and provide the one you are referencing to support your opinion.

[Nightstrike]

Dexterity isn't mentioned in the first quote. Talaan used a trick that anyone could do if they had a tactical mind. Tricks don't make people perform "used about" the same things and to the same degree - as the dexterity difference (on average, but not between Rand and Egwene for instance) between men and women is said to be about.

 

The second quote is about dividing the flows fourteen ways, and that's less than Rand did in book 4. I'm thinking he could probably do better in book 12 than in book 4. Dexterity might have something to do with dividing flows, but maybe strength matters as well (since the stronger ones seem to have done better than the weaker since New Spring - if we're thinking Randland chronology).

[Nightstrike]

Well, actually it was a dozen times in book 4. I don't think anything beyond 4 flows at once has to be an advantage in a duelling situation. Men are less dexterous than women on average. I don't know if dexterity has to do with dividing flows or if it is strength, Talent, training, strength of will, or anything else that decides it.

[Suttree]

Dexterity isn't mentioned in the first quote.

 

 

 

WH

She was ready for the girl's trick this time. Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

 

Nyn tried to match Talaan's dexterity...and failed.

[Nightstrike]

Nynaeve met her weave more dexterously (whatever that means?). Doesn't help her against Talaan. Talaan used tactics, not dexterity. The trick Talaan used is one anyone tactically minded could do, as I read it. Even so, if Talaan is more dexterous than Nynaeve, then Nynaeve could be more dexterous than Egwene. Rand could be more dexterous than Talaan. Graendal could be more dexterous than Rand,  Lanfear could be more dexterous than Graendal, and Lanfear could still lose against Rand in a duel.

[Suttree]

Nynaeve met her weave more dexterously (whatever that means?). Doesn't help her against Talaan. Talaan used tactics, not dexterity.

 

WH

Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on

 

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant. Abruptly six weaves of Air shot out from the girl, darting toward Nynaeve, and Nynaeve quickly sliced them with Fire. The severed flows snapped back into Talaan, jolting her visibly, but before they had vanished properly, six more appeared, faster than before. Nynaeve slashed. And gaped as Talaan's weave of Spirit flickered around hers and wrapped around her, cutting off saidar. She was shielded! Talaan had shielded her! For the final indignity, flows of Air pinioned her arms and legs tightly, crushing her skirts.

 

All of those "tactics" take dexterity in weaving to pull off. You said it was never mentioned and now you try and dismiss it when it is pointed out that it was. One can't just ignore the text. It explicitly says Nyn tried to match her dexterity and she couldn't do it.

 

Further we know that Nyn is heavy handed with her dexterity outside of healing. She has disdained practicing in those other areas. While Egwene has a high level of dexterity and greater knwowledge. The only advantage Nyn has is strength, and the books plus the authors are clear it matters far less than most fans seem to think. Regardless I've already been sucked too far down a typical Nightstrike rabbit hole. If you wish to continue go back to post #67 and explain away each quote and provide the one you keep referencing. Thanks. 

[Nightstrike]

It was mentioned Nynaeve met Talaan's weave more dexterously, not that Egwene is more dexterous than Nynaeve or that strength doesn't matter. Talaan and Nynaeve is equal, and they are both women. I don't think Egwene would have had a chance against Nynaeve, regardless of whether they fight to the death or to shield eachother. Fight to the death would probably give strength an even greater advantage over anything else (training, experience, talents, and so on).

[BFG]

I found this an interesting post from the character ability thread.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/82754-wot-character-ability-scores/?p=2966958

 

Icegyrfalcon provided this info from the Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game book (it's official stuff, with a Foreword from Robert Jordan, who also later wrote an article for Dragon magazine providing more creatures for the setting).

 

 

Egwene: STR 8, DEX 13, CON 12, INT 17, WIS 20, CHA 18.

Nynaeve: STR 11, DEX 15, CON 13, INT 14, WIS 20, CHA 19.

 

Now I confess I have no idea how roleplaying games work, but I'm assuming that higher numbers are better.  Apparantly this was published after WH & before CoT.  In this Nyn is given higher dexterity than Eg, although Egs intelligence is higher. 

 

Now of course this is limited, it may refer solely to her talent with healing or it may not, it may not be properly sanctioned by RJ...

 

But although I agree that Nyns knowledge is limited outside of healing I really struggle accepting Cads 'dismal' assessment.  The only time she's shown to 'fail' at anything (that I can recall offhand) is in the battle against Talaan, who is by all accounts the SeaFolk equivalent of the Wondergirls

 

 

   "When I cast the stars and give our position correctly, I am punished for being slow even when I have the answer as fast as Windfinder Ehvon! When I taste the sea and name the coast we are approaching, I am punished because the taste I name is not quite what Windfinder Ehvon tastes! I shielded you twice, but tonight I will hang by my ankles for not doing so sooner! I am punished for flaws ignored in others, for flaws I never make, because I might! Was your novice training any harder than that, Nynaeve?"

 

(Ok, so maybe not Wondergirl level, but very talented)

 

Outside of this, the only evidence of Nyn being dismal is Cads opinion, and I'll take my own assessment from the books than Cads.  I can accept that Cads would consider her level of knowledge is dismal (and agree to a certain extent), but not her ability (or my definition of dismal is very different to Cads)

[Rhienne]

I think part of the difficulty is that we know from the authors and scenes in the series that strength isn't everything, but we don't know at what point strength does come in to play.  E.g., we know Talaan and Nynaeve are pretty much identical in terms of strength, but Talaan is more dextrous, so in a duel, she beats Nynaeve.  But beyond that I don't think we have enough information to say whether Egwene's X amount of greater dexterity would better Nynaeve's X amount of greater strength, or whether Moiraine X amount of greater knowledge would best Elayne's X amount of greater strength, etc.

 

 

 

The only advantage Nyn has is strength,

She also has inventiveness/creativity, e.g. being able to figure out Balefire with no former knowledge of it, puzzling out how to Heal stilling, adapting the 'useless' weaves from the AS testing to weapons.  Not disputing her lack of dexterity, but I think that her ability to invent and adapt on the spot and under pressure would also count as advantages.

[Suttree]

The stats were not official and the RPG is not considered canon.

In Robert Jordan's Blog, dated 4th Oct 2006, he had this to say on the RPG:

"For Infested Templar, I had little to do with the RPG. Mainly my role was limited to telling them that they could not have paladins, ninjas, clerics, shuriken etc. I had to put so much time into that fighting that I washed my hands of the rest, I'm afraid."

 

@ BFG & Rhienne

 

Think the main point here is there is considerable evidence that dexterity and knowledge can make up for strength ie. Cyndane v. Alivia etc. In that fight Alivia was "by far the stronger" and had immunity from direct weaves.

 

We know Nynaeve is nothing short of miraculous with healing but has disdained learning much else(RJ says this, Cads says it, and Nyn herself says it). This isn't to say that she couldn't be good if she put in the time but we know that she hasn't.

[BFG]

Fair enough about the stats, like I said I know nothing about it, I just found them intriguing.

 

I also agree that dexterity makes up for a lot of strength, but I do think Cads and I have a different definition of dismal :)

 

Like I said, I can agree that her level of knowledge may well be 'dismal' but not her ability.

[Cybertrolloc]

Oh god, this again? Someone clear Suttree's paste buffer already.

[Suttree]

Somehow it always seems to happen when Nightstrike comes round these parts.

[jedman67]

But although I agree that Nyns knowledge is limited outside of healing I really struggle accepting Cads 'dismal' assessment.  The only time she's shown to 'fail' at anything (that I can recall offhand) is in the battle against Talaan, who is by all accounts the SeaFolk equivalent of the Wondergirls

 

"When I cast the stars and give our position correctly, I am punished for being slow even when I have the answer as fast as Windfinder Ehvon! When I taste the sea and name the coast we are approaching, I am punished because the taste I name is not quite what Windfinder Ehvon tastes! I shielded you twice, but tonight I will hang by my ankles for not doing so sooner! I am punished for flaws ignored in others, for flaws I never make, because I might! Was your novice training any harder than that, Nynaeve?"

 

(Ok, so maybe not Wondergirl level, but very talented)

 

Outside of this, the only evidence of Nyn being dismal is Cads opinion, and I'll take my own assessment from the books than Cads.  I can accept that Cads would consider her level of knowledge is dismal (and agree to a certain extent), but not her ability (or my definition of dismal is very different to Cads)

 

 I think the books suggest that Talaan is more or less on par with Nynaeve, but with better dexterity (which can be ascribed to different methods of training among the Sea Folk, and Nynaeve being a wilder).

I think Cadsuane's opinion is more character strength than specific OP strength. Outside of healing, Nyn shows little interest in learning - bettering herself, learning patience/endurance; among other things. Cads is also a bit arrogant - but it works well on her. She tends to disdain anyone who is below her, and she's intentionally cultivated a legend around herself. 

 

I think part of the difficulty is that we know from the authors and scenes in the series that strength isn't everything, but we don't know at what point strength does come in to play.  E.g., we know Talaan and Nynaeve are pretty much identical in terms of strength, but Talaan is more dextrous, so in a duel, she beats Nynaeve.  But beyond that I don't think we have enough information to say whether Egwene's X amount of greater dexterity would better Nynaeve's X amount of greater strength, or whether Moiraine X amount of greater knowledge would best Elayne's X amount of greater strength, etc.

 

She also has inventiveness/creativity, e.g. being able to figure out Balefire with no former knowledge of it, puzzling out how to Heal stilling, adapting the 'useless' weaves from the AS testing to weapons.  Not disputing her lack of dexterity, but I think that her ability to invent and adapt on the spot and under pressure would also count as advantages.

Moiraine i think showed similar creativity with weaves during her testing in NS. I've said this before, but I think Nynaeves single most disadvantage is her inability to really mature throughout the series. Elayne also suffers from the same, but not to the same degree. Egwene as well, but she grows out of it during her time with the aiel and as amyrlin.

[Cybertrolloc]

Somehow it always seems to happen when Nightstrike comes round these parts.

Well that's a relief. Yes, it hurts to say that Nightstrike is sorta right about something besides breathing, but at least he's right for the wrong reasons.

 

It's only 5 pages in WH guys (that one has a larger font too), context matters somewhat in this case.

[Rhienne]

I also agree that dexterity makes up for a lot of strength, but I do think Cads and I have a different definition of dismal :)

 

Like I said, I can agree that her level of knowledge may well be 'dismal' but not her ability.

 

I agree with you on Cadsuane's description of Nynaeve's ability.  It implies that she lacks competence, effectiveness, and imagination. 

 

In the entire series, as far as I can remember we have Cadsuane's opinion that Nynaeve is dismal at 'everything else', and one dual between Nynaeve and Talaan, which Nynaeve loses.  This doesn't neccessarily make Nynaeve dismal as we don't know exactly how dextrous Talaan is.  It does tell us that Nynaeve is less dextrous than Talaan, and coupled with Nynaeve's own comments that she has neglected other aspects of her training, Cadsuane's opinion, I think its fair to say that Nynaeve isn't a particularly dextrous weaver.

 

On the other hand, we have numerous examples of her using saidar effectively, competently, and with imagination.  I don't think 'dismal' is a fair description of a channeler who can a) come up with Balefire all by herself, b) adapt useless weaves to make them successfully but at the same time use them as weapons (this suggests some knowledge of the weave to be able to adapt it without losing its original form), c) Travel competently (I can't remember the exact scene, but Egwene shows the Travelling weave to one of the WT Aes Sedai during her captivity, and its described as as complicated as anything the sister had ever seen).  Furthermore, I don't think there are any examples in the series of Nynaeve's weaves failing to do what she intends them to, or not working properly/well because she hasn't made them neatly or dexterously enough.

[Pokeriser]

I found this an interesting post from the character ability thread.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/82754-wot-character-ability-scores/?p=2966958

 

Icegyrfalcon provided this info from the Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game book (it's official stuff, with a Foreword from Robert Jordan, who also later wrote an article for Dragon magazine providing more creatures for the setting).

 

 

Egwene: STR 8, DEX 13, CON 12, INT 17, WIS 20, CHA 18.

Nynaeve: STR 11, DEX 15, CON 13, INT 14, WIS 20, CHA 19.

 

Now I confess I have no idea how roleplaying games work, but I'm assuming that higher numbers are better.  Apparantly this was published after WH & before CoT.  In this Nyn is given higher dexterity than Eg, although Egs intelligence is higher. 

 

 

 

Dexterity would refer solely to physical dexterity, even if those stats were officially sanctioned they'd be pretty irrelevant. Nynaeve has high dexterity because her father taught her to track and hunt like he would have a son (remember how she tracks Lan, and remains hidden from his sight, in the first book). In fact, a bit off-topic, but personally I think that Dexterity attribute number  should be swapped with Charisma :P

[Suttree]

On the other hand, we have numerous examples of her using saidar effectively, competently, and with imagination.  I don't think 'dismal' is a fair description of a channeler who can a) come up with Balefire all by herself, b) adapt useless weaves to make them successfully but at the same time use them as weapons (this suggests some knowledge of the weave to be able to adapt it without losing its original form), c) Travel competently (I can't remember the exact scene, but Egwene shows the Travelling weave to one of the WT Aes Sedai during her captivity, and its described as as complicated as anything the sister had ever seen).  Furthermore, I don't think there are any examples in the series of Nynaeve's weaves failing to do what she intends them to, or not working properly/well because she hasn't made them neatly or dexterously enough.

 

Yeah the raw talent and smarts are certainly there. Again when I think of the "dismal" quote it's more lack of knowledge and the way she has not really applied herself to learning anything outside of healing. I also think it could tie into Nyn not yet knowing the Cads life lesson of "what must be endured, can be endured".

 

As for dexterity outside of healing there are a number of instances of her having a rough/clumsy hand in addition to the Talaan duel. Here is one more example in regards to linking:

 

TPoD Ch. 5

   "Nynaeve," the Windfinder announced loudly, "you will now demonstrate your skill at linking. Be about it, woman, and quickly!"...

  It was not exactly the same as using an angreal, though very close. It was not meant to be done hurriedly, either; Nynaeve did not have a soft touch, at best. Elayne felt as though she were being shaken; nothing happened physically, but inside her head she seemed to be bouncing around, tumbling wildly downhill.

[Rhienne]

 

As for dexterity outside of healing there are a number of instances of her having a rough/clumsy hand in addition to the Talaan duel. Here is one more example in regards to linking:

 

TPoD Ch. 5

Quote

   "Nynaeve," the Windfinder announced loudly, "you will now demonstrate your skill at linking. Be about it, woman, and quickly!"...

  It was not exactly the same as using an angreal, though very close. It was not meant to be done hurriedly, either; Nynaeve did not have a soft touch, at best. Elayne felt as though she were being shaken; nothing happened physically, but inside her head she seemed to be bouncing around, tumbling wildly downhill.

Yeah, not disagreeing here - just coming it at from a different angle!  I look at that example and see Nynaeve being able to link successfully, but not taking the time or effort to either do it with finesse, or learn to do it with finesse.  I get the impression that so long as it gets the job done, Nynaeve isn't really fussed about the details, and I think (like you suggest), that Cadsuane's comment was partially in reference to her lack of knowlegde about weaves, and partly her lack of character development (i.e. learning to better herself in things she isn't interested in), rather than as a cut and dried comment on her channeling ability.