Does Tuon really think attacking the White Tower is going to work?

[False Dragon1991]

Cut the damane from the source then. Make them useless and give something for the Seanchan to ponder about. (Actually I wonder how they would treat somebody cut from the source?) As long as she can see I don't think it requires any connection and can't be dodged.

 

When Moiraine used an angreal she used weaves she was familiar with but simply increased the scale of those weaves. Don't see why thats beyond Egwene in this situation. 

 

Then how come the damane weren't limited by restricted vision or how fast they were going during this night attack? Surely they had to see Egwene to fire at her and had to slow down, glide or hover in order do this properly. They are targeting one woman after all.

 

How come Egwene didn't kill more of them in the corridors then? The Seanchan objective was to capture as many channelers as possible and to neutralise the "weapon" the Aes Sedai had. So you would expect most of the strike force to be inside the tower not still on their dragons. Surely on sensing the vast amount of power they would assume that was it and converge on Egwene? 

 

If you look at the losses that sounds more like if Nynaeve had used her strong angreal rather than a sangreal which are meant to be in a similar league to callandor and weapons which allowed the breaking of the world to happen. I just don't see how killing a few hundred seanchan is that big of a deal without the whole Seanchan=supermen and each one is worth a thousand trollocs. 

 

If she had the female Kal (that is an odd loose end to leave BTW, a woman could make another access key ter angreal) she could blow a country up. I do not think it would be beyond her to destroy the seanchan force if she had that. It would be ridiculous if they could survive.

[clutzyninja]

Cut the damane from the source then. Make them useless and give something for the Seanchan to ponder about. (Actually I wonder how they would treat somebody cut from the source?) As long as she can see I don't think it requires any connection and can't be dodged.

 

When Moiraine used an angreal she used weaves she was familiar with but simply increased the scale of those weaves. Don't see why thats beyond Egwene in this situation. 

 

Then how come the damane weren't limited by restricted vision or how fast they were going during this night attack? Surely they had to see Egwene to fire at her and had to slow down, glide or hover in order do this properly. They are targeting one woman after all.

 

How come Egwene didn't kill more of them in the corridors then? The Seanchan objective was to capture as many channelers as possible and to neutralise the "weapon" the Aes Sedai had. So you would expect most of the strike force to be inside the tower not still on their dragons. Surely on sensing the vast amount of power they would assume that was it and converge on Egwene? 

 

If you look at the losses that sounds more like if Nynaeve had used her strong angreal rather than a sangreal which are meant to be in a similar league to callandor and weapons which allowed the breaking of the world to happen. I just don't see how killing a few hundred seanchan is that big of a deal without the whole Seanchan=supermen and each one is worth a thousand trollocs. 

 

If she had the female Kal (that is an odd loose end to leave BTW, a woman could make another access key ter angreal) she could blow a country up. I do not think it would be beyond her to destroy the seanchan force if she had that. It would be ridiculous if they could survive.

Maintaining that many shields, on people moving all over the place, would drastically take away from the concentration needed to continue to down more Raken.  Also, NO ONE, to include Egwene, had any clue as to the size of the force they were dealing with.

Is there anyting in the books you actually LIKE?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Both the Chodean Kal were destroyed. The female one after the cleansing (it was also destroyed, not just the access key) and the male when Rand destroyed it on Dragonmount. 

[Mr Ares]

Perhaps. Those divisions are severe and the text does get at that. But if it were THAT easy, then I don't understand why the shadow hasn't just wiped the Aes Sedai out entirely. Taim and his ashaman could easily destroy the tower if this is the case. Surely no Aes Sedai is better than divided Aes Sedai? With the Last Battle imminent why would they pass such an opportunity up. And if the Forsaken want to have the Aes Sedai continue then why would they risk the Seanchan disrupting that? Surely the Black Ajah would have advance warning from the forsaken and their Seanchan darkfriends to prevent losing valuable agents? Its not in their interests anymore for the Seanchan to gain more damane with the death of Suroth. So why hasn't one of the Forsaken killed Tuon like they did her mother? So the forsaken are willing to jeopardize their own plans with the Aes Sedai to the betterment of one of their enemies and risk losing lots of black ajah; because...? 

 

Plus, if Tuon has access to male collars then why not attack the Black Tower where there a hundreds of much more powerful ashaman she could use? Granted they'd probably be successful there as well with all the plot armor since damane are so OP that it would make up for no linking against male channelers. 

The Shadow wants the Light divided against itself, not united against the Shadow. The more openly they move, the less possible this becomes. If the BT attacked the White, it would at a stroke unite the entire world against them. Further, Taim is more concerned with expanding his control of the BT, convincing more people to join the Shadow. To move so openly would prove he was a Darkfriend, make an enemy of Rand, turn hundreds of non-aligned Asha'man against him, see the AS survivors unite and the Tower/rebel split ended at a stroke. Sure you kill a couple of hundred AS, which is no small thing, but at tremendous cost. An AS v Seanchan conflict is basically just the Shadow's enemies killing each other until they can't resist any more.

 

Also, linking is not as powerful as you seem to believe. It's a useful tool, but very situational - in many conflicts (such as the close quarters fighting of the WT) it would be a detriment. It effectively turns several weaker channelers into one stronger one - in many cases, the greater flexibility of the extra channelers, their ability to deal with threats individually, their being better able to react, their not leaving several women undefended and easy prey (weakening the link step by step) help more than the extra punch.

 

 

Calling down lightning strikes from the sky is possible, but strikes would be random within a given area, and I'd imagine they'd travel the path of least resistance: through the Tower itself, given that it's also the highest point and is grounded. Actually targeting a bolt of lightning would require weaving a conduit between herself and the raken, which is a fast moving target.

 

While Sanderson isn't much of a tactician, and you've had qualms with the Seanchan under Jordan as well, I do think you're letting your biases get in the way here.

 

Cut the suldam and damane from the source then. You can't run away from that. As good as dead then. 

 

Fire and air would kill them just as well. She doesn't need to be accurate when she can just fill the air with either element indiscriminately. 

 

A sangreal should give you more than a token boost in killing power. Rand killed every trolloc in the stone using callandor and that can level a city. A "normal" sangreal should still provide a colossal boost to enable her to target the foe. If flying meant you could ignore the attacks of really powerful channelers then why don't trollocs and myrdaal have wings?

When has callandor been stated to be able to level a city? Filling the air with fire is a significant use of energy for little gain and high risk. Hitting someone's connection to the Source at that sort of range, against a fast moving target who is fighting back and could conceivably cut your weave is not s easy as you suggest.

 

If she had the female Kal (that is an odd loose end to leave BTW, a woman could make another access key ter angreal) she could blow a country up. I do not think it would be beyond her to destroy the seanchan force if she had that. It would be ridiculous if they could survive.

Aside from what Barid said, it's doubtful that there are any women alive who could have made an Access Key anyway. Not everyone has the Talent, and I don't recall any of the Chosen having it.

[False Dragon1991]

 

Cut the damane from the source then. Make them useless and give something for the Seanchan to ponder about. (Actually I wonder how they would treat somebody cut from the source?) As long as she can see I don't think it requires any connection and can't be dodged.

 

When Moiraine used an angreal she used weaves she was familiar with but simply increased the scale of those weaves. Don't see why thats beyond Egwene in this situation. 

 

Then how come the damane weren't limited by restricted vision or how fast they were going during this night attack? Surely they had to see Egwene to fire at her and had to slow down, glide or hover in order do this properly. They are targeting one woman after all.

 

How come Egwene didn't kill more of them in the corridors then? The Seanchan objective was to capture as many channelers as possible and to neutralise the "weapon" the Aes Sedai had. So you would expect most of the strike force to be inside the tower not still on their dragons. Surely on sensing the vast amount of power they would assume that was it and converge on Egwene? 

 

If you look at the losses that sounds more like if Nynaeve had used her strong angreal rather than a sangreal which are meant to be in a similar league to callandor and weapons which allowed the breaking of the world to happen. I just don't see how killing a few hundred seanchan is that big of a deal without the whole Seanchan=supermen and each one is worth a thousand trollocs. 

 

If she had the female Kal (that is an odd loose end to leave BTW, a woman could make another access key ter angreal) she could blow a country up. I do not think it would be beyond her to destroy the seanchan force if she had that. It would be ridiculous if they could survive.

Maintaining that many shields, on people moving all over the place, would drastically take away from the concentration needed to continue to down more Raken.  Also, NO ONE, to include Egwene, had any clue as to the size of the force they were dealing with.

Is there anyting in the books you actually LIKE?

 

 

I really like...

 

Nynaeve

 

Aviendha

 

Birgitte

 

Perrin

 

Faile

 

Matt (his love and apologetic attitude toward Tuon his only negative flaw)

 

Rand (and I almost never like the main male protagonist in any fantasy or feel indifferent towards them. Jon Snow, Arithorn, Pug etc etc)

 

Moiraine

 

Lan

 

 

I am not sure why you're bringing that up. I am not saying Egwene is a bad person for not killing every last Seanchan. In fact this was her express intent so I actually can't hold that against her. Its only a complaint about the inconsistant portrayel of sangreal and power levels. As well as the fact that theres a disconnect between the text making out like Egwene is doing something OP and incredible. When she kills less Seanchan than a single ashaman could.

 

 

@ Mr Ares- It is stated at several times as being able to level a city. The wiki probs says more on this.

 

She has a sangreal. Does that suddenly not count for anything all of a sudden? Then why does the text make such a big deal out of her getting it in the first place? Fine, are there instances later on in the book of a character using a sangreal to kill enemies that results in more than a handful being dead after a whole lengthy battle? Do they compare well with this fight? By this logic, a sangreal should only give you enough strength to kill a hundred people and provide some protection against channelers and being blocked. I don't know why you seem to believe that Egwene with a sangreal could not kill 300 seanchan during the course of this entire battle.

[Barid Bel Medar]

What you seem to forget is that power is not everything.  Yes, Egwene with a Sa'angreal can kill 10x  probably 100x the numbers she does in the raid. However, you need to actually see and aim at them to kill them. 

 

She only started half-way through the attack, by that time the Seanchan were spread throughout the entire White Tower. The White Tower is huge, with dozens of floors. 

 

Egwene is perhaps half-way up the Tower, firing out a hole in the Tower into the night at targets that are moving and have their own defence. She cannot see the raken in the night, but they can see her, so she has to maintain a constant defence. She doesn't have 360 degree vision and the Raken are landing on the top of the Tower, picking up captives and leaving. 

 

When they see a massive amount of Power being used from a gap in the Tower, they don't all line up to get shot at. They avoid that area so she can't shoot them down. The Seanchan are not looking to kill her. Once they realise the massive Power she is using, they just flee. It is a raid to take captives, not an all out assault. 

 

She also has to defend from damane and soldiers attacking from inside the Tower and make sure 30+ novices don't get themselves captured or killed. 

 

She could try and take them all out with a massive burst of power, but I suspect she didn't want to risk destroying the entire White Tower and kill half the Aes Sedai in it. 

 

There are certainly inconsistencies in the attack on the Tower, but at this point the arguments are largely invalidated. The Seanchan over-performed, but not to an unrealistic degree. 

[clutzyninja]

 

 

She has a sangreal. Does that suddenly not count for anything all of a sudden? Then why does the text make such a big deal out of her getting it in the first place? Fine, are there instances later on in the book of a character using a sangreal to kill enemies that results in more than a handful being dead after a whole lengthy battle? Do they compare well with this fight? By this logic, a sangreal should only give you enough strength to kill a hundred people and provide some protection against channelers and being blocked. I don't know why you seem to believe that Egwene with a sangreal could not kill 300 seanchan during the course of this entire battle.

 

Well I give up. It's been explained over and over that the inability to "kill them all" lay neither with the sa'angreal or Egwene, but with the situation they were in.  The reason it was a big deal was because Egwene's power was crippled by forkroot, and her circle was one of inexperienced girls, so the sa'angreal was absolutely necessary for her to do the damage she did.  The argument has gone full circle at least three times now.  If that's not enough, then it never will be, and the discussion is pointless.

[MasterAblar]

 

She has a sangreal. Does that suddenly not count for anything all of a sudden? Then why does the text make such a big deal out of her getting it in the first place? Fine, are there instances later on in the book of a character using a sangreal to kill enemies that results in more than a handful being dead after a whole lengthy battle? Do they compare well with this fight? By this logic, a sangreal should only give you enough strength to kill a hundred people and provide some protection against channelers and being blocked. I don't know why you seem to believe that Egwene with a sangreal could not kill 300 seanchan during the course of this entire battle.

 

 

Are the 300 Seanchan right in front of her?

[Mr Ares]

@ Mr Ares- It is stated at several times as being able to level a city. The wiki probs says more on this.

That doesn't answer my question. I recall it being stated to be able to level a city's walls at a blow, but that's not the same as levelling a city.

 

She has a sangreal. Does that suddenly not count for anything all of a sudden? Then why does the text make such a big deal out of her getting it in the first place? Fine, are there instances later on in the book of a character using a sangreal to kill enemies that results in more than a handful being dead after a whole lengthy battle? Do they compare well with this fight? By this logic, a sangreal should only give you enough strength to kill a hundred people and provide some protection against channelers and being blocked. I don't know why you seem to believe that Egwene with a sangreal could not kill 300 seanchan during the course of this entire battle.

The point about circumstance cannot be mentioned enough. In one situation, it is entirely possible to kill far more people than another. If the Seanchan were advancing across open ground, in her field of vision, with no cover, in a nice big group, then killing 300 would be nothing. Spread out, out of line of sight, swooping past briefly on to'raken or only being at a distance (and being farther away requires both greater accuracy and more power), it becomes significantly harder to rack up those kills. A sa'angrel helps, but it doesn't magically make all the difficulties disappear.

[szilard]

Does Tuon really think attacking the White Tower is going to work? I just read that chapter in Gathering Storm.

 

1. This is Mr. Sanderson's Tuon not Mr. Jordan's.

 

2. It was inevitable (see Eg's dream etc.)

 

3. They are desperate: they had no idea what to do after the colossal defeat.

 

4. I think Mr. Jordan thought that it will be a pretty cool idea: attack the heart of the enemy.

[False Dragon1991]

The Senachan are not desperate. They have constantly been portrayed as this invincible war machine that has better, bigger and better led armies than anyone. Limitless resources and access to channelers who kill. Whose channelers are better than Aes Sedai and Ashaman apparently. Whose warriors can defeat Aeil. Who are according to a vision strong enough to conquer all of Randland even after all the changes and improvements made by our heroes. Despite the fact we are told that the Seanchan cannot win the Last Battle they are just not shown as abiding by the normal rules or restrictions. If they lose 250,000 soldiers this does not affect them in the slightest. They just send another army. Its stupid. Its silly. Its bad writing and it just undermines everything the heroes do as we all are left hanging on what the uber faction is going to do. I want to see the heroes struggle to save the world. Not kow tow to the evil Imperial overlords who the plot has given all the power and who seem immune to it. No matter how many times our heroes beat these people, or the machinations of the forsaken or the efforts of our heroes they continue to advance and be a threat. Its unrealistic and dumb. They are too powerful and have too much influence on the plot. Whats the point of Elayne, the Borderlanders, Perrin and Matt getting armies together if the Seanchan have twenty times as many soldiers, they're much better and if they have more channelers and better ones than anyone else? Lets just make our heroes actions pointless why don't we?

 

Its a serious fail in the series that it tries to portray the Seanchan as misunderstood honourable good guys when in fact they are just a crude plot device which renders a lot of the hard work done by our heroes moot. Or, its not going to make any sense come last battle since they should form 70% of the army but only form a fraction of it for inexplicable reasons... Oh, because the plot isn't about the struggles of the scum in their gimpy insect helmets and making it all about the Seanchan winning the last battle would take the focus off our heroes? But I thought they were supposed to be this uber faction with millions of men who could take all these losses without any effect and had more and better channellers than everyone? Really. I am dreading how they are going to fit into the last battle atm. I am reasonably sure they will be on Rands side, but implementing it I bet isn't going to make sense.   

[Agitel]

Misunderstood honourable good guys? Really?

[Maleshub]

It was a raid, sabotage operation, against what the Seanchan presume to be the Dragon's most important ally. It was a stroke of military genius aided by the terrible internal situation of the WT. In damage, the raid was not the hardest blow the WT suffered before AMoL. The WT lost more AS in Toveine's mission against the BT (not killed; but lost their strength). "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign." The WT needed to be reforged after 3K years of near stagnation.