Why do people who have the adam on seem to forget who they are?

[False Dragon1991]

I just finished reading Knife of Dreams where the head of the Deathwatch guards brings an Aes Sedai damane with him to meet Matt. The Aes Sedai with Matt are repulsed and demand her be released but they are shocked that she enjoys her captivity and wouldn't want to be freed. I get that the adam can be sued to torture somebody and that people can be broken. But without some sort of mind control I don't see how you could break them, brain wash them and keep them actually useful enough to form weaves. Hasn't every Aes Sedai sworn the 3 oaths to serve the general good and fight the shadow? Isn't being enslaved by this barbarian scum completely going against that? I just find it hard to believe that an adam could force Stockholm syndrome on a grown woman with such responsibility towards others and would even after being freed or at the prospect of being freed be completely against it. Without any form of mind control I just never got how they seem to become silly children after a few weeks. 

 

On a side note. I really do not like how several main characters are playing down the faults of the Seanchan, with Matt even openly chiding Aes Sedai for wanting an Aes Sedai  freed of an adam and presenting them as goodies. Its not a quibbling matter that they have invaded. murdered and enslaved tens of thousands of innocent people without any cause or moral authority whatsoever. Yet, despite being openly villainous and maintaining despicable values  I am being told to see them as a good thing. Oh how honourable this general is for keeping her word or how good they are at running Ebou Dar. I am sure some SS colonels were honourable people and that Mussolini made the trains run on time; that does not make them good guys. How is Matt allowing a woman to be kept in bondage, tortured and humiliated for centuries and passing this off as the Aes Sedai being troublemakers even make any sense? 

[BFG]

It's difficult to suggest reasons why, I'm certainly not experienced with psychological trauma to even guess at an answer, but I would say that the AS that is met again in KoD was captured early in tGH.  That's an inworld time gap of about 2 years.  We see Eg start to break after a few months, and we can see how tough she is later with Elaida, although it's likely her experience at Falme helped with that.

 

In addition not all AS are the same.  The AS we meet tend to be strong-willed, but not every AS will have their convictions or strength of personality.  We see Elaida break very quickly, but she's been affected by Moridin and Alviarin for a long time, so isn't exactly sane by the time she's captured.

[Rhienne]

I think it would vary from women to women.  Its mentioned several times in the series that some damane never accept their collaring and eventually lose the will to live, and end up dying.  I think the damane you are referring to (Mylen) was thought to be one of these until Tuon took over her training.  Although we don't get any evidence of how Tuon goes about saving her and bringing her round to accept being a damane.  

 

I don't know much about psychological trauma in these kind of scenarios either, but I would imagine there are a number of factors which contribute to the breaking of an Aes Sedai's spirit when collared (beyond just her strength of will).  Firstly, they have gone from a position of almost equalling ruling monarchs in terms of respect, and being the most powerful people in Randland, to people who are right at the bottom of the pile.  In fact they are below the bottom of the pile - they are treated as animals.  This has got to be extremely hard to come to terms with.  Secondly, this goes beyond Stockholm syndrome that might be experienced in reality.  Not only are damane prisoners and degraded, but their own strength is used against them.  We see the AS with Mat used to shield each other when Tuon and Selucia briefly collar them.  The sul'dam know whether they have tried to resist (i.e. by not attempting a weave), making resistance pretty much impossible.  While this isn't quite mind control, its certainly more control than the ordinary jailer can exert over his/her captive.

 

I think there's also got to be the complete cultural isolation.  We know that Mylen was captured at Falme and taken back to Seanchan.  She was a prisoner, treated as an animal, confined to a ship, surrounded by people whose views and lifestyle were completely alien to her.  The only chance she has of any kind of comfort or affection is to become a good damane.  It may be less painful for her mentally to embrace her new life than to face the hopelessness of trying to fight it.  Additionally, once damane accept their life, they don't have to undergo any physical discomforts, which can be unbearable if suffered on a daily basis.  They aren't starved, or left without shelter, or beaten.  

 

 

 

Hasn't every Aes Sedai sworn the 3 oaths to serve the general good and fight the shadow? Isn't being enslaved by this barbarian scum completely going against that?

The three oaths don't say anything about serving the general good, fighting the Shadow, or enslavement.  They only ensure that an AS can't lie, can't make weapons with the OP, and can't kill anyone except Shadowspawn unless her life, that of her warder, or that of another sister is in danger.  In fact we know that the three oaths do restrict Mylen as a damane, although not in the way you suggest.  She cannot be used in battle like normal damane because of the oath not to kill, no matter how her sul'dam tries to force her.  However, she is apparently used for other purposes, such as Healing.

 

I do agree with you regarding Mat's attitude to the Seanchan.  I did not enjoy his relationship with Tuon (and the Seanchan as a whole), or find it believable because of this.  In CoT you see him freeing Windfinders who have been taken damane, and he obviously abhors the whole idea.  I don't understand how he tolerates Tuon's promotion of this aspect of the Seanchan, or could love someone who does.

[False Dragon1991]

Not the 3 oathes per sae. But as an institution the primary function of the Aes Sedai is to help guide humanity to help it fight the shadow; hence why they have tried to bind the nations together several times. Given how severe the testing is you would expect this duty to be something of great importance to almost every Aes Sedai. So I just don't see how this could be easily forgotten. Plus, if you contrast it to other forms of captivity in the series, people do give way a lot to their treatment, but they also often only play along with the hope of escape and still think to themselves how to get away. With the damane this seems to be much more the case that people break very easily and completely.

[Mr Ares]

I just finished reading Knife of Dreams where the head of the Deathwatch guards brings an Aes Sedai damane with him to meet Matt. The Aes Sedai with Matt are repulsed and demand her be released but they are shocked that she enjoys her captivity and wouldn't want to be freed. I get that the adam can be sued to torture somebody and that people can be broken. But without some sort of mind control I don't see how you could break them, brain wash them and keep them actually useful enough to form weaves. Hasn't every Aes Sedai sworn the 3 oaths to serve the general good and fight the shadow? Isn't being enslaved by this barbarian scum completely going against that? I just find it hard to believe that an adam could force Stockholm syndrome on a grown woman with such responsibility towards others and would even after being freed or at the prospect of being freed be completely against it. Without any form of mind control I just never got how they seem to become silly children after a few weeks.

Everyone has a breaking point. It would take immense sense of character to survive in that situation without breaking, something beyond even most AS. There is no other form of captivity in the series as complete as the a'dam, save perhaps a broken cour'souvra. If freedom seems impossible, acceptance of the situation is a necessary survival mechanism.

 

On a side note. I really do not like how several main characters are playing down the faults of the Seanchan, with Matt even openly chiding Aes Sedai for wanting an Aes Sedai  freed of an adam and presenting them as goodies. Its not a quibbling matter that they have invaded. murdered and enslaved tens of thousands of innocent people without any cause or moral authority whatsoever. Yet, despite being openly villainous and maintaining despicable values  I am being told to see them as a good thing. Oh how honourable this general is for keeping her word or how good they are at running Ebou Dar. I am sure some SS colonels were honourable people and that Mussolini made the trains run on time; that does not make them good guys. How is Matt allowing a woman to be kept in bondage, tortured and humiliated for centuries and passing this off as the Aes Sedai being troublemakers even make any sense?

Are the Seanchan bad people with maybe a few good points, or are they good people with a few dubious cultural practices? If you grew up in a culture that accepted slavery, the chances are that you would accept slavery. So it is with most of the Seanchan - they are not monsters or barbarians, but they do have some bad points (damane being one of the worst, not least due to its poor foundation - channelers are not animals that need to be controlled, they can be valued and productive members of society, as Leilwin begins to appreciate after spending time with Nynaeve and Elayne). As for the acceptance of many of the characters, that's just them getting used to things. When they first encountered the Seanchan, they were seen only from the outside, as invaders. As time has passed, they have spent more time with them, learnt more about them, come to know them, so the idea of them being monsters who should be thrown back into the sea or killed is one that has less hold over Mat and Perrin, while Egwene (who is still traumatised by her experiences with them) still hates them. Rand saw they were able to do what he could not - bring order and stability to the regions conquered (specifically, the comparison between Arad Doman and Ebou Dar) - so the idea that he should destroy them is not one he could accept. What do you want to happen? The characters to, completely unrealistically, never adapt to their circumstances, never change their views, and vow to destroy the Seanchan even if they do some good, and even if the act of destroying them leaves Rand unable to face down the armies of the Shadow? Let's not forget, the Children of the Light are also on the side of the Light. We see them primarily as antagonists, but they are still on the same side as the good guys, ultimately, and we see various different characters in their ranks, some good, some bad. The Tairens, the Cairhienin, the Aiel, all have decidedly dubious cultural practices - the Aiel, in particular, and they are accepted more than the Seanchan. "Change that which you cannot accept, accept that which you cannot change." Where they have the power to make changes, they do so. Where they don't, they accept, even if they don't like - one day, they may be in a position to change things, but not today.

[False Dragon1991]

 

I just finished reading Knife of Dreams where the head of the Deathwatch guards brings an Aes Sedai damane with him to meet Matt. The Aes Sedai with Matt are repulsed and demand her be released but they are shocked that she enjoys her captivity and wouldn't want to be freed. I get that the adam can be sued to torture somebody and that people can be broken. But without some sort of mind control I don't see how you could break them, brain wash them and keep them actually useful enough to form weaves. Hasn't every Aes Sedai sworn the 3 oaths to serve the general good and fight the shadow? Isn't being enslaved by this barbarian scum completely going against that? I just find it hard to believe that an adam could force Stockholm syndrome on a grown woman with such responsibility towards others and would even after being freed or at the prospect of being freed be completely against it. Without any form of mind control I just never got how they seem to become silly children after a few weeks.

Everyone has a breaking point. It would take immense sense of character to survive in that situation without breaking, something beyond even most AS. There is no other form of captivity in the series as complete as the a'dam, save perhaps a broken cour'souvra. If freedom seems impossible, acceptance of the situation is a necessary survival mechanism.

 

On a side note. I really do not like how several main characters are playing down the faults of the Seanchan, with Matt even openly chiding Aes Sedai for wanting an Aes Sedai  freed of an adam and presenting them as goodies. Its not a quibbling matter that they have invaded. murdered and enslaved tens of thousands of innocent people without any cause or moral authority whatsoever. Yet, despite being openly villainous and maintaining despicable values  I am being told to see them as a good thing. Oh how honourable this general is for keeping her word or how good they are at running Ebou Dar. I am sure some SS colonels were honourable people and that Mussolini made the trains run on time; that does not make them good guys. How is Matt allowing a woman to be kept in bondage, tortured and humiliated for centuries and passing this off as the Aes Sedai being troublemakers even make any sense?

Are the Seanchan bad people with maybe a few good points, or are they good people with a few dubious cultural practices? If you grew up in a culture that accepted slavery, the chances are that you would accept slavery. So it is with most of the Seanchan - they are not monsters or barbarians, but they do have some bad points (damane being one of the worst, not least due to its poor foundation - channelers are not animals that need to be controlled, they can be valued and productive members of society, as Leilwin begins to appreciate after spending time with Nynaeve and Elayne). As for the acceptance of many of the characters, that's just them getting used to things. When they first encountered the Seanchan, they were seen only from the outside, as invaders. As time has passed, they have spent more time with them, learnt more about them, come to know them, so the idea of them being monsters who should be thrown back into the sea or killed is one that has less hold over Mat and Perrin, while Egwene (who is still traumatised by her experiences with them) still hates them. Rand saw they were able to do what he could not - bring order and stability to the regions conquered (specifically, the comparison between Arad Doman and Ebou Dar) - so the idea that he should destroy them is not one he could accept. What do you want to happen? The characters to, completely unrealistically, never adapt to their circumstances, never change their views, and vow to destroy the Seanchan even if they do some good, and even if the act of destroying them leaves Rand unable to face down the armies of the Shadow? Let's not forget, the Children of the Light are also on the side of the Light. We see them primarily as antagonists, but they are still on the same side as the good guys, ultimately, and we see various different characters in their ranks, some good, some bad. The Tairens, the Cairhienin, the Aiel, all have decidedly dubious cultural practices - the Aiel, in particular, and they are accepted more than the Seanchan. "Change that which you cannot accept, accept that which you cannot change." Where they have the power to make changes, they do so. Where they don't, they accept, even if they don't like - one day, they may be in a position to change things, but not today.

 

 

Yet why do the majority of freed damane or those offered freedom even when they were Aes Sedai remain so loyal to their captors? 

 

 

Well, for one if you look at what the Seanchan are doing, moving in hundreds of thousands of colonists to occupy territory they have conquered; there really should be a lot more resistance and outrage than is presented. It is naked colonialism and very few societies would accept this. Just look at the hostility Andorans have towards even the idea of foriegners being on their soil; much less actually seizing territory. People aren't complaining about the Seanchan taking their land or land which is inside their borders and they should feel rightly belongs to them? Why are the nobility so passive in their acceptance of this? In fact moving in a population into a host country to displace and outnumber the locals is a form of ethnic cleansing; especially if its to occupy lands where people have been driven away by war. So its entirely unrealisitic that the Seanchan are considered bringers of order. Especially when their social practices like slavery are totally alien to them, including forced enslavement of all channelers (values totally contrary to Randland) and the society being an authoritarian one which dispenses the right to execute people without trial by its own laws after abolishing the current ones. These are the actions of an oppressive and imperialist people which are presented in far too positive a light. There is far too much acceptance of what they are doing. People accepting the superior and enlightened rule of an Imperial power and being grateful is a myth. Even in a fictional setting I find it really silly. 

 

Rand never owned Arad Doman or Tarabon or Altara. In fact their chaos is the result of the Shadow and the Seanchan success due to the Forsaken allowing them to grow into a threat against Rand. So its not entirely correct. If Rand had had a firm hand on Arad Doman and Tarabon things would haven't have gotton out of hand; but Moiraine and the prophecies said otherwise. Also, as noted above, the passive acceptance of Seanchan rule given what they are doing is absurd; the idea that they would be loved for conquering a people and introducing their foreign ways is almost ridiculous.  

 

The Whitecloaks only bad point is that they hate Aes Sedai for silly reasons. Since Galad is Lord Captain this is no longer an issue and even before under Nial they were clearly struggling to maintain an ideological position that went against most of Randland (all channelers are darkfriends). The Seanchan are rotton to the core and unrepentently so. Never mind that their goals make them enemies of every single faction in the universe. 

 

Hey, I don't mind them making a deal with the devil to defeat the nastier devil. ala Helping Soviet Union to fight Nazis. But I do not want them presented as nice people when they clearly are not and for our main characters to be developing a skewed view which marginalizes or trivializes what they do and what they are. Frankly the more Seanchan that die during the Last Battle the better the world will be coming out of the Last Battle. A good act does not wash out the bad. I don't care if you honor a deal or alliance, you are a wretched, ignorant slaver who has invaded my homeland and given channellers to sadistic torturers which you publicly abuse.     

 

I would prefer an ending in which they reap what they have sown and continue to prosecute their war against Rand; not letting go of their delusions of superiority. I believe that a vile culture like that should not be rewarded or dignified by having them on Rands side for the last battle. Yes, overcoming prejudice to fight a greater evil is a literary trope but its one I would not want to see in this case. Or at least something which the Seanchan fail to do and bring their own ruin on themselves. This conflict destroys them and severely weakens Rand before the Last Battle; becoming a major handicap for him. 

[Suttree]

 

 

I just finished reading Knife of Dreams where the head of the Deathwatch guards brings an Aes Sedai damane with him to meet Matt. The Aes Sedai with Matt are repulsed and demand her be released but they are shocked that she enjoys her captivity and wouldn't want to be freed. I get that the adam can be sued to torture somebody and that people can be broken. But without some sort of mind control I don't see how you could break them, brain wash them and keep them actually useful enough to form weaves. Hasn't every Aes Sedai sworn the 3 oaths to serve the general good and fight the shadow? Isn't being enslaved by this barbarian scum completely going against that? I just find it hard to believe that an adam could force Stockholm syndrome on a grown woman with such responsibility towards others and would even after being freed or at the prospect of being freed be completely against it. Without any form of mind control I just never got how they seem to become silly children after a few weeks.

Everyone has a breaking point. It would take immense sense of character to survive in that situation without breaking, something beyond even most AS. There is no other form of captivity in the series as complete as the a'dam, save perhaps a broken cour'souvra. If freedom seems impossible, acceptance of the situation is a necessary survival mechanism.

 

On a side note. I really do not like how several main characters are playing down the faults of the Seanchan, with Matt even openly chiding Aes Sedai for wanting an Aes Sedai  freed of an adam and presenting them as goodies. Its not a quibbling matter that they have invaded. murdered and enslaved tens of thousands of innocent people without any cause or moral authority whatsoever. Yet, despite being openly villainous and maintaining despicable values  I am being told to see them as a good thing. Oh how honourable this general is for keeping her word or how good they are at running Ebou Dar. I am sure some SS colonels were honourable people and that Mussolini made the trains run on time; that does not make them good guys. How is Matt allowing a woman to be kept in bondage, tortured and humiliated for centuries and passing this off as the Aes Sedai being troublemakers even make any sense?

Are the Seanchan bad people with maybe a few good points, or are they good people with a few dubious cultural practices? If you grew up in a culture that accepted slavery, the chances are that you would accept slavery. So it is with most of the Seanchan - they are not monsters or barbarians, but they do have some bad points (damane being one of the worst, not least due to its poor foundation - channelers are not animals that need to be controlled, they can be valued and productive members of society, as Leilwin begins to appreciate after spending time with Nynaeve and Elayne). As for the acceptance of many of the characters, that's just them getting used to things. When they first encountered the Seanchan, they were seen only from the outside, as invaders. As time has passed, they have spent more time with them, learnt more about them, come to know them, so the idea of them being monsters who should be thrown back into the sea or killed is one that has less hold over Mat and Perrin, while Egwene (who is still traumatised by her experiences with them) still hates them. Rand saw they were able to do what he could not - bring order and stability to the regions conquered (specifically, the comparison between Arad Doman and Ebou Dar) - so the idea that he should destroy them is not one he could accept. What do you want to happen? The characters to, completely unrealistically, never adapt to their circumstances, never change their views, and vow to destroy the Seanchan even if they do some good, and even if the act of destroying them leaves Rand unable to face down the armies of the Shadow? Let's not forget, the Children of the Light are also on the side of the Light. We see them primarily as antagonists, but they are still on the same side as the good guys, ultimately, and we see various different characters in their ranks, some good, some bad. The Tairens, the Cairhienin, the Aiel, all have decidedly dubious cultural practices - the Aiel, in particular, and they are accepted more than the Seanchan. "Change that which you cannot accept, accept that which you cannot change." Where they have the power to make changes, they do so. Where they don't, they accept, even if they don't like - one day, they may be in a position to change things, but not today.

 

 

Yet why do the majority of freed damane or those offered freedom even when they were Aes Sedai remain so loyal to their captors? 

 

Because their very identity is erased. It's not just stockholm syndrome. They are turned into something subhuman. Each person will react differently but when one breaks they break completely.

 

Well, for one if you look at what the Seanchan are doing, moving in hundreds of thousands of colonists to occupy territory they have conquered; there really should be a lot more resistance and outrage than is presented.

 

A theme of the books is this is a fallen world. Populations and countries are shrinking. There are huge tracks of unnocupied land and very few are being forcibly removed.

 

  Just look at the hostility Andorans have towards even the idea of foriegners being on their soil; much less actually seizing territory.

 

Andorans are noted as being exceptionally nationalistic. Further Elayne could not be seen to take outside help gaining the throne.

 

 Especially when their social practices like slavery are totally alien to them, including forced enslavement of all channelers (values totally contrary to Randland)

 

Well Thom talks about this in KoD:

 

“The first lesson is what questions to ask. The second, and just as important, is when and how to ask. I learned there aren’t any brigands, which is always good to know. though I’ve heard of very few bands big enough to attack something as large as the show. I learned Nathin is under the Seanchan thumb. Either he’s obeying a command with those extra guards, or he takes their suggestions as commands. And most important, I learned that Nathin’s armsmen don’t resent the Seanchan.”

   Mat quirked an eyebrow at him.

   “They didn’t spit when they said the name, Mat. They didn’t grimace or growl. They won’t fight the Seanchan, not unless Nathin tells them to, and he won’t.” Thorn exhaled heavily. “It’s very strange. I’ve found the same everywhere from Ebou Dar to here. These outlanders come, take charge, impose their laws, snatch up women who can channel. and if the nobles resent them, very few among the common people seem to. Unless they’ve had wife or relation collared, anyway. Very strange, and it bodes ill for getting them out again. But then. Altara is Altara. I’ll wager they’re finding a colder reception in Amadicia and Tarabon.” He shook his head. “We had best hope they are, else…” He did not say what else, but it was easy to imagine.

 

Different countries will react in different ways. Some place like Ebou Dar that has never known stability might welcome it. In others like Tarabon and Arad Doman we see portions of the countries in open revolt. Keep in mind even in Seanchan there are frequent revolts and sedition they have to put down so it's not as if everyone just accepts things. Some of the "stability" is more propganda from teh Empire than anything else.

 

 Also, as noted above, the passive acceptance of Seanchan rule given what they are doing is absurd; the idea that they would be loved for conquering a people and introducing their foreign ways is almost ridiculous.

 

But there isn't total passive acceptance. Not sure why you keep implying that.

 

The Whitecloaks only bad point is that they hate Aes Sedai for silly reasons.

 

Nope. They would frequently "question" supposed DF's and the like, torturing innocents to get a "confession". We see them have numerous other bad points aside from AS in how some of their members act. Outside of thequestioners just look at some of Nial's plans to spread chaos so he can come in and "save the day".

 

The Seanchan are rotton to the core and unrepentently so. Never mind that their goals make them enemies of every single faction in the universe. 

 

For all that their treatment of channelers and slavery is abhorent they are hardly "rotten" to the core.

[False Dragon1991]

It doesn't matter if the land isn't occupied. If a race of aliens who lived in deserts were to start colonising the Nevada desert people would object. Historically this was one of the justifications for colonising North America, that it was an "empty" or virgin land and that most of the locals didn't place any claim to it thus the colonists were well in their rights to take it. What the Seanchan are doing is taking land within the borders of a country and giving it to their people in order to displace the local population so they become a minority. This is something China does today in Xinjiang province by encouraging emigration of Han chinese to smother nationalist sentiment in that area. People, historically, violently object to the occupation of land there people have laid claim to, occupied or not. At best you would expect the common people to be apathetic. Welcoming the new overlords with their savage and offensive customs is really silly.

 

Communities, rural or urban, with tight family units would never accept having women of the community enslaved and publicly tortured/humiliated without any rational justification that the locals would acknowledge. Its not like in Nazi occupied Europe where there was a historical and pervasive culture of anti-semitism and the nazis were not open about what they were doing. We are told that 3% of the population is able to channel (assume a third are innate). So, if an average village is about a few hundred people then near every town or village has had at least one of its own forcibly taken away, tortured and publicly humiliated by these people who insist that they should see her as an animal. This cuts far too close to the bone and is far too pervasive a practice to not cause greater conflict than it does. One in a hundred women being enslaved in this manner would cause an immense rift between the occupiers and the occupied. It would touch every community and would be seen as an Imperialist power insulting local sentiment and feeling by degrading their women. Just look at how close the people of Emond Fields are. Now imagine if a bunch of foreigners in strange armor demanded that Nynaeve and Egwene be dragged away and the Suldam made a point of demonstrating why they should obey. People would object to such a display and this behavior (without any rationale or effort to cover up) would draw far more resistance and beyond just the family groups involved. It would certainly turn anyone who witnessed such an act sour against the Seanchan. A good analogy would be the Boxer rebellions in China against Western cultural intrusion and Imperialism during the 20th century and then the Westerners weren't enslaving and publicly humiliating women. So people have rebelled for far more trivial cutlural practices than this. 

 

So the idea that this just touches the nobility makes no sense especially given the scale of the slavery taking place and the nature of close knit communities in this world. Just taking one would have a ripple effect out of all proportion to those directly affected. Basically it is hugely understated just how much xenophobia there would be towards the Seanchan occupation given its practices. Even the suggestion of people accepting the enlightened rule of the occupiers (which is serious as Thoms quote makes clear) just makes no sense in that context. Just imagine if you heard that the barmaid at your local pub was dragged outside and that these foreign devils made her scream and writh in pain like an animal until she came with them for a lifetime of servitude. You would definitely not think "Yeah things are so much better with these bugheads around".  

 

Uh, yeah, they really are rotten to the core. You're talking about a people who repeatedly demonstrate a lack basic empathy and have a corps of women whose daily purpose is to torture women and they are encouraged to treat these people as subhuman and take advantage of them. When Egwene is captured every Seanchan in the camp approves of her being put in daily agony until she is left screaming and wimpering. Thats inhuman. Any society that encourages that and sees it as virtuous is sick, rotten and deserves to fall. I felt good when Semihurge said she destroyed their Empire across the Aryth Ocean.      

[Suttree]

It has been pointd out to you that Arad Domon and Tarabon were pretty much in open revolt. Again different countries will react in different ways and we have seen all sides of the spectrum in the story. Thom himself says "Altara is Altara".

[False Dragon1991]

It has been pointd out to you that Arad Domon and Tarabon were pretty much in open revolt. Again different countries will react in different ways and we have seen all sides of the spectrum in the story. Thom himself says "Altara is Altara".

 

 

Arad Doman hasn't been conquered at the point I am up to in the story; though a large army was sent north lured by the wolf. Tarabon was, but was basically loyal with massive numbers of them serving in the Seanchan army against Rand (the undisputed savior of the world BTW) and it was only the intervention of the Domani supported by several thousand fanatical dragonsworn that caused the "revolt". Technically there was no revolt in Tarabon but only that these men had pretended to be loyal Tarabon soldiers and then struck out. Only Suroth thinks of this as a mutiny/revolt and its a mistaken belief. So it was not presented as a homegrown revolt against the Seanchan because of what they were doing.

[Suttree]

Sorry, wasn't clear on where you were in the story. All I can say is keep reading.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

I just finished reading Knife of Dreams where the head of the Deathwatch guards brings an Aes Sedai damane with him to meet Matt. The Aes Sedai with Matt are repulsed and demand her be released but they are shocked that she enjoys her captivity and wouldn't want to be freed. I get that the adam can be sued to torture somebody and that people can be broken. But without some sort of mind control I don't see how you could break them, brain wash them and keep them actually useful enough to form weaves. Hasn't every Aes Sedai sworn the 3 oaths to serve the general good and fight the shadow? Isn't being enslaved by this barbarian scum completely going against that? I just find it hard to believe that an adam could force Stockholm syndrome on a grown woman with such responsibility towards others and would even after being freed or at the prospect of being freed be completely against it. Without any form of mind control I just never got how they seem to become silly children after a few weeks.

Everyone has a breaking point. It would take immense sense of character to survive in that situation without breaking, something beyond even most AS. There is no other form of captivity in the series as complete as the a'dam, save perhaps a broken cour'souvra. If freedom seems impossible, acceptance of the situation is a necessary survival mechanism.

 

On a side note. I really do not like how several main characters are playing down the faults of the Seanchan, with Matt even openly chiding Aes Sedai for wanting an Aes Sedai  freed of an adam and presenting them as goodies. Its not a quibbling matter that they have invaded. murdered and enslaved tens of thousands of innocent people without any cause or moral authority whatsoever. Yet, despite being openly villainous and maintaining despicable values  I am being told to see them as a good thing. Oh how honourable this general is for keeping her word or how good they are at running Ebou Dar. I am sure some SS colonels were honourable people and that Mussolini made the trains run on time; that does not make them good guys. How is Matt allowing a woman to be kept in bondage, tortured and humiliated for centuries and passing this off as the Aes Sedai being troublemakers even make any sense?

Are the Seanchan bad people with maybe a few good points, or are they good people with a few dubious cultural practices? If you grew up in a culture that accepted slavery, the chances are that you would accept slavery. So it is with most of the Seanchan - they are not monsters or barbarians, but they do have some bad points (damane being one of the worst, not least due to its poor foundation - channelers are not animals that need to be controlled, they can be valued and productive members of society, as Leilwin begins to appreciate after spending time with Nynaeve and Elayne). As for the acceptance of many of the characters, that's just them getting used to things. When they first encountered the Seanchan, they were seen only from the outside, as invaders. As time has passed, they have spent more time with them, learnt more about them, come to know them, so the idea of them being monsters who should be thrown back into the sea or killed is one that has less hold over Mat and Perrin, while Egwene (who is still traumatised by her experiences with them) still hates them. Rand saw they were able to do what he could not - bring order and stability to the regions conquered (specifically, the comparison between Arad Doman and Ebou Dar) - so the idea that he should destroy them is not one he could accept. What do you want to happen? The characters to, completely unrealistically, never adapt to their circumstances, never change their views, and vow to destroy the Seanchan even if they do some good, and even if the act of destroying them leaves Rand unable to face down the armies of the Shadow? Let's not forget, the Children of the Light are also on the side of the Light. We see them primarily as antagonists, but they are still on the same side as the good guys, ultimately, and we see various different characters in their ranks, some good, some bad. The Tairens, the Cairhienin, the Aiel, all have decidedly dubious cultural practices - the Aiel, in particular, and they are accepted more than the Seanchan. "Change that which you cannot accept, accept that which you cannot change." Where they have the power to make changes, they do so. Where they don't, they accept, even if they don't like - one day, they may be in a position to change things, but not today.

 

 

Yet why do the majority of freed damane or those offered freedom even when they were Aes Sedai remain so loyal to their captors?

 

The scars of captivity are not so easily forgotten. Remember when Egwene was a captive, and at one point found herself unable to use her washbasin, until she had not only decided not to use it as a weapon, but had convinced herself it couldn't be a weapon.

 

Well, for one if you look at what the Seanchan are doing, moving in hundreds of thousands of colonists to occupy territory they have conquered; there really should be a lot more resistance and outrage than is presented. It is naked colonialism and very few societies would accept this. Just look at the hostility Andorans have towards even the idea of foriegners being on their soil; much less actually seizing territory. People aren't complaining about the Seanchan taking their land or land which is inside their borders and they should feel rightly belongs to them? Why are the nobility so passive in their acceptance of this? In fact moving in a population into a host country to displace and outnumber the locals is a form of ethnic cleansing; especially if its to occupy lands where people have been driven away by war. So its entirely unrealisitic that the Seanchan are considered bringers of order. Especially when their social practices like slavery are totally alien to them, including forced enslavement of all channelers (values totally contrary to Randland) and the society being an authoritarian one which dispenses the right to execute people without trial by its own laws after abolishing the current ones. These are the actions of an oppressive and imperialist people which are presented in far too positive a light. There is far too much acceptance of what they are doing. People accepting the superior and enlightened rule of an Imperial power and being grateful is a myth. Even in a fictional setting I find it really silly.

Tarabon was a land wracked by war, both internal and external. Then order is imposed. At what price? Well, precious little. Life carries on as before, for most people. Any who rise in rebellion are brutally put down. If you have a choice between accepting, and allowing life to carry on as it did before, or object and get slapped down hard, why would you object? No-one is being displaced, the Seanchan aren't forcing people from their homes. The forced slavery of channelers? Well, channelers are not popular, they are not liked. If someone came along and told you that those people you already hated are dangerous, and took them away and controlled them in order to protect you, how hard would you object? Do you really find it so hard to believe that for people tired of war, peace is something they would struggle so hard against when the price of peace is so low?

 

Rand never owned Arad Doman or Tarabon or Altara. In fact their chaos is the result of the Shadow and the Seanchan success due to the Forsaken allowing them to grow into a threat against Rand. So its not entirely correct. If Rand had had a firm hand on Arad Doman and Tarabon things would haven't have gotton out of hand; but Moiraine and the prophecies said otherwise. Also, as noted above, the passive acceptance of Seanchan rule given what they are doing is absurd; the idea that they would be loved for conquering a people and introducing their foreign ways is almost ridiculous.

The Seanchan didn't spread chaos. The Whitecloaks did, and Graendal did, but the Seanchan ended the wars in Tarabon in fairly short order.

 

The Whitecloaks only bad point is that they hate Aes Sedai for silly reasons. Since Galad is Lord Captain this is no longer an issue and even before under Nial they were clearly struggling to maintain an ideological position that went against most of Randland (all channelers are darkfriends). The Seanchan are rotton to the core and unrepentently so. Never mind that their goals make them enemies of every single faction in the universe.

So torturing someone until they confess to a crime, and taking suspicion as proof of guilt are not bad points? A willingness to massacre bystanders is not a bad point? I'm not entirely sure why you consider the one group irredeemably evil and the other as only having one bad point which is easily dismissed?

 

Hey, I don't mind them making a deal with the devil to defeat the nastier devil. ala Helping Soviet Union to fight Nazis. But I do not want them presented as nice people when they clearly are not and for our main characters to be developing a skewed view which marginalizes or trivializes what they do and what they are. Frankly the more Seanchan that die during the Last Battle the better the world will be coming out of the Last Battle. A good act does not wash out the bad. I don't care if you honor a deal or alliance, you are a wretched, ignorant slaver who has invaded my homeland and given channellers to sadistic torturers which you publicly abuse.

Ignorant, not monstrous. They come from a culture with radically different values, it's no surprise that the idea that they favour their own cultural values over those of you, or I, or the Westlands. Tear allowed the nobility to do as they will, with the peasants having no recourse. Ebou Dar allowed a woman to kill a man, with the assumption that this was OK usually. The Shaido practice slavery, a modified version of existing Aiel cultural practices. The Aiel are willing to torture people, and look down with scorn on other cultures, especially Cairhienin (for their monstrous crime of not stopping a guy that most of them never knew doing something that had no particular significance to them). In fact, they are quite willing to kill the Cairhienin. Why are the Seanchan so much more monstrous? Because of slavery? Seems rather arbitrary - it's OK for people to have no rights, as long as you don't call them property instead of people. You object to terminology rather than actions?

 

It doesn't matter if the land isn't occupied. If a race of aliens who lived in deserts were to start colonising the Nevada desert people would object.

How strenuously they would object depends on various factors - would you take up arms if you were tired of fighting, had no chance of vicotry, and weren't substantially hurt by the changes? More likely you'd just grumble a bit.

Communities, rural or urban, with tight family units would never accept having women of the community enslaved and publicly tortured/humiliated without any rational justification that the locals would acknowledge. Its not like in Nazi occupied Europe where there was a historical and pervasive culture of anti-semitism and the nazis were not open about what they were doing. We are told that 3% of the population is able to channel (assume a third are innate). So, if an average village is about a few hundred people then near every town or village has had at least one of its own forcibly taken away, tortured and publicly humiliated by these people who insist that they should see her as an animal. This cuts far too close to the bone and is far too pervasive a practice to not cause greater conflict than it does. One in a hundred women being enslaved in this manner would cause an immense rift between the occupiers and the occupied. It would touch every community and would be seen as an Imperialist power insulting local sentiment and feeling by degrading their women. Just look at how close the people of Emond Fields are. Now imagine if a bunch of foreigners in strange armor demanded that Nynaeve and Egwene be dragged away and the Suldam made a point of demonstrating why they should obey. People would object to such a display and this behavior (without any rationale or effort to cover up) would draw far more resistance and beyond just the family groups involved. It would certainly turn anyone who witnessed such an act sour against the Seanchan. A good analogy would be the Boxer rebellions in China against Western cultural intrusion and Imperialism during the 20th century and then the Westerners weren't enslaving and publicly humiliating women. So people have rebelled for far more trivial cutlural practices than this.

Firstly, only 1% can channel. We don't know how many are sparkers, but we do know that learners do substantially outnumber sparkers - why assume a third, when it could easily be a tenth, or even a hundredth? One woman in ten thousand being taken away? Rather less of an impact. And those women being taken away are channelers, and channelers are hardly beloved - in Amadicia, it's a crime. Also, the people are not exposed to most of what is done to the damane. They see their loved ones taken away, and likely never see them again. Any who do object, well, get too violent with your objections and they can show you just how dangerous a damane is. I'm sure the survivors will take note that their wives, daughters, sisters have that same destructive power, and they might not be as at ease with them coming home as they were before. (And besides, what man doesn't like a woman in a collar?)

 

Uh, yeah, they really are rotten to the core. You're talking about a people who repeatedly demonstrate a lack basic empathy and have a corps of women whose daily purpose is to torture women and they are encouraged to treat these people as subhuman and take advantage of them. When Egwene is captured every Seanchan in the camp approves of her being put in daily agony until she is left screaming and wimpering. Thats inhuman. Any society that encourages that and sees it as virtuous is sick, rotten and deserves to fall. I felt good when Semihurge said she destroyed their Empire across the Aryth Ocean.

You say lack of basic empathy like it's a bad thing. I've always felt empathy was overrated. But bear in mind how the Seanchan practices regarding damane came about - on Seanchan, the continent was ruled by AS who warred amongst themselves. The idea that these women needed to be controlled is not unreasonable. To go from there to, a thousad years later, a belief that these women are dangerous and cannot be allowed to roam freely, any more than you would allow a tiger free run of your house, is not ridiculous or absurd. To suggest that they all deserve to die and that they are rotten to the core is unwarranted. They have not been exposed to channelers who are allowed to go freely, and Egeanin begins changing her views when she is. The Seanchan can be redeemed, their practices changed and abolished. But the way to do that isn't through bloodshed, but through knowledge. The Aiel don't have the same mistrust of channelers, and so would not stand for it. The people of the Westlands have very little exposure, and most of what they do involves male channelers (who are dangerous) and AS (who are manipulative and untrustworthy). These cultures neither need nor deserve to fall. They only need to be allowed to see the error of their ways. That can put them on the path to changing. There's been an awful lot of change in our views here in the West during my lifetime - I remember when women couldn't vote, and when it was legally impossible for a man to rape his wife. When homosexuality was a crime - now, most people favour gay marriage. Societies change. We have different values today from those of our parents and grandparents. The Seanchan can change too, once their misconceptions are cleared up.

[False Dragon1991]

Slavery is a worse form of bondage than serfdom, especially since most of Randland seems closer to 15th century Englan with lots of small independent farmers where we have royal magistrates and a basic notion of the law. With slavery, you are property and there are no limits on what you can do to that person. It is infinitly worse for that reason. In Tear, a commoner can be accused of a crime they have't commited and be executed (laws Rand changed and which are considered exceptional).

 

The suldam make no secret of what they do to break damane. They publicly display such women on leashs and punish them as it pleases them, or if they are just sadistic. People and communities would object to women being taken away and it would be easy to learn or observe the fate of the damane; any Seanchan soldier or settler would know.

 

Aes Sedai are viewed with a mix of fear, mistrust, awe and respect. It is complicated, but by and large, many rulers and nobility ansawr to the White Tower and its moral authority. In recent memory they helped organize the Grand Alliance. Moiraine was even given a party before she left by the ruling house and nobility. The borderlands and Andor have even tighter links. Most resisitance seems to be a perception that Aes Sedai meddle in the political affairs of other nations and want to take everything over. Thats far from a belief that channeling the One Power is evil. You then have to consider the oral traditions and histories which do stress that Aes Sedai traditionally fought the shadow just as much as Aes Sedai being manipulative.

 

A tiger isn't a rational creature a woman who can channel is. If the Seanchan haven't figured out that women who can channel are not rabid animals, that they talk, are no different from ordinary people and behaved completely normally without any restraints before the adam was applied then they are just simply stupid. Such a belief could only be maintained if an uncollared damane was like a man who could channel, a belief which could not possibly be maintained on meeting groups of free channelers. Or, they just believe such women might try to take power for themselves and why thats any worse than whats expected of ordinary human behavior is simply flat hypocrisy. If you look at the Age of Legends, that society worked because it allowed learning and use of the one power to flourish. The Seanchan have learned nothing of the One Power or furthered its use to aid others, whilst others like the Sea Folk and Wise Ones and even the Aes Sedai have learned much more of the One Power. In fact, its quite likely that the Seanchan will prevent any return to such an age by smothering any effort at progress because they are a despotic culture of barbarians and are out of ignorance cutting off an incredible gift to humanity in the One Power. People being able to channel is a good and miraculous thing. If people use it for ill thats no worse than what Luthair Paendrag or his father did and at least the One Power can do far more good than anything those men achieved.  

 

Um, the belief of a bunch of Imperialists led by a meglomaniacal overlord who wanted to rule the world because he could? Who believed they had a right to remove the local rulers and impose their own dominion? There is no justification or logic behind that. They used the adam to benefit themselves and secure the continent; not out of any moral cause or to right any wrongs. The case could be made that dangerous taverrn like Hawkwing needed to be contained and controlled. Millions of people died because of his empire and its collapse; much less the hundreds of thousands killed and enslaved because of the Seanchan spawn which were an offshoot of it. That society is poisonous and corrupt in a literal sense whilst we see that channelling is perfectly capable of being integrated into a healthy functioning society. If they have not learned by now and have maintained such beleifs for such long against common sense and reason then they are never going to learn. They certainly need to be driven out of Randland and hopefully Semihurges actions will have destroyed their society on Senachan itself permanently. 

 

 

ps-  @ Mr Ares - No, I prefer when the woman holds the whip. :D

[Yamezt]

 

Thats far from a belief that channeling the One Power is evil. You then have to consider the oral traditions and histories which do stress that Aes Sedai traditionally fought the shadow just as much as Aes Sedai being manipulative.

I think in Randland only the White Cloaks believe the use of the One Power is evil. However, the fact that the Aes Sedai having the 3rd oath is suggestive that people in Randland obviously finds the One Power dangerous - so much so that the Aes Sedai had to "police" themselves by adding the 3rd oath.

 

I disagree about the AS as some moral authority in Randland - Perhaps the AS like to think that they are. They are influential, and there are certainly AS that seek good. There are also AS that are ambitious, petty and half way lunatic (Elaida). The Black Ajah being able to manipulate the White Tower for years is also suggestive that White Tower had failed in being able to police dangerous channellers. 

[Plato]

Let me try to explain, perhaps some have already answered anyway.

 

As you say, some Damane don't ever accept it and lose the will to live and die.  Most though, become a damane:

 

Imagine not only physical torchers for disobeying, but also mental torchers.  The sul'dam is the only person the damane interact with.  The only person feeding the damane, taking the damane for walks, etc. etc.  Pet names re-inforce this.  The damane is not an Aes Sedai with 20,000 responsibilities, the damane is Tisha, who only has to worry about pleasing the Sul'Dam.  Was the Aes Sedai getting stressed out dealing with these 20,000 responsibilties, or in anyway unhappy with her lot in life?  The Damane life offers freedom.  Freedom from responsibility and choice; only obey, and do these simple destructive weaves, and the damane will be held in high regard.  There are no more worries, no more cares, no more stress ever again!  The previous life was a nightmare.  Only obey! 

 

You see how some Aes Sedai might find the Damane life better?  If an Aes Sedai had only ever dealt with bullies above her rank, and fear and revulsion from the common people, then Damane indoctrination might be just what she wants...

 

This also explains why after a few weeks the former Aes Sedai might not want to be freed.  The Aes Sedai has spent the last 20-80 years (or more) being an Aes Sedai and getting to this point.  In the course of a few months she has had to forget all her previous dreams, her previous responsibilities, machinations, cares, and let go.  She has had to become a different person utterly, to the core.  Many a long night sobbing about being in love, or rising to power, or settling a diplomatic dispute, etc. etc.  The more she cries and sobs, the more she is letting go.  The sadness in itself is the thought process that she will never do any of these things ever again.  Escape or Rescue leave her mind.  As each layer of herself becomes undone, she becomes more and more maliable by the expert-in-brainwashing Sul'Dam.  Eventually the former Aes Sedai relies on the Sul'Dam for more than just food.  Soon the Sul'Dam smiling is a blessing.  The Sul'Dam giving a compliment: a revelation!  Soon the former Aes Sedai has let go of all her former dreams, responsibilities, loves, et all.  In order to better cope with this new lifestyle (and to please her Sul'Dam even more), she starts believing what the Seanchan say about channeling.  She begins to think that she MUST be collared for the greater good!

 

And Now she is suddenly freed and has to re-assume her role as an Aes Sedai?!  She just put all her strength into trying to accept herself as damane and be happy about it...  Going back to being an Aes Sedai (and the prospect of potentially be collared again later) might not be a good idea to her.  She might just sit there waiting to be re-collared.

 

Naturally if she was resisting the collar, and then freed, she would easily re-adapt to being an Aes Sedai.  (Although suffering from Post-Traumatic-Stress...) 

 

Of course, what I just described is basically Stockholme Syndrome...

[jedman67]

Damane training is not "torture" in a subjective sense; its 'discipline'. A good sul'dam only uses pain as a last resort; but sometimes pain is necessary for training. 

Let's say you visited a dog kennel, where the trainers use both positive and negative reinforcement. The dogs complain, verbally, that they don't like the pain, but they enjoy the treats and like wearing furry hats over their ears when its cold (in this scenario, the dogs have average human intelligence and speech capability [David Weber touched on this in his Mutineers Moon trilogy] and understand most concepts except danger and self-control). You train by whatever means necessary in order to teach them to be good dogs. In Seanchan, damane are basically dogs. In this case, all the native damane are culturally brainwashed that channelers must be collared. They may resist at first, but its so ingrained into their society that they accept (break) easily.

[False Dragon1991]

In Egwenes POV in TGH the Suldam are very clearly portrayed as being sadistic, taking pleasure in inflicting pain on her and imagining new ways to "break her". You would not throw a dog in a boiling vat of liquid to teach it a lesson or stand on its paw and do not rely on causing prolonged suffering or agony which is intended to be degrading. At worst teaching a dog only means light taps which on a human is more like lightly flicking them with air for instance so they know right from wrong. What the Suldam do is FAR beyond any comparison to training dogs. You would not treat a dog that way. It is very much portrayed as mental torture and the women who do that are evil; pure and simple. Suldam are no different from Semihurge and they deserve the same fate as her. In fact given their inclinations I am amazed they aren't all  Darkfriends.

[Suttree]

In Egwenes POV in TGH the Suldam are very clearly portrayed as being sadistic, taking pleasure in inflicting pain on her and imagining new ways to "break her". You would not throw a dog in a boiling vat of liquid to teach it a lesson or stand on its paw and do not rely on causing prolonged suffering or agony which is intended to be degrading. At worst teaching a dog only means light taps which on a human is more like lightly flicking them with air for instance so they know right from wrong. What the Suldam do is FAR beyond any comparison to training dogs. You would not treat a dog that way. It is very much portrayed as mental torture and the women who do that are evil; pure and simple. Suldam are no different from Semihurge and they deserve the same fate as her. In fact given their inclinations I am amazed they aren't all  Darkfriends.

 

Even if that were true about Egwene's handlers why would you think it is true of all sul'dam? A Semi comparison would be innapropriate for overwhelming majority of them.

[False Dragon1991]

 

In Egwenes POV in TGH the Suldam are very clearly portrayed as being sadistic, taking pleasure in inflicting pain on her and imagining new ways to "break her". You would not throw a dog in a boiling vat of liquid to teach it a lesson or stand on its paw and do not rely on causing prolonged suffering or agony which is intended to be degrading. At worst teaching a dog only means light taps which on a human is more like lightly flicking them with air for instance so they know right from wrong. What the Suldam do is FAR beyond any comparison to training dogs. You would not treat a dog that way. It is very much portrayed as mental torture and the women who do that are evil; pure and simple. Suldam are no different from Semihurge and they deserve the same fate as her. In fact given their inclinations I am amazed they aren't all  Darkfriends.

 

Even if that were true about Egwene's handlers why would you think it is true of all sul'dam? A Semi comparison would be innapropriate for overwhelming majority of them.

 

 

You are using devices which inflict whatever pain you can imagine on people with the intent of breaking them so that they become child-like and obey. Anyone involved in that is sadistic almost by definition and yes Egwenes handlers were that bad IMO. Just because they are not inflicting true physical pain does not make it any less damaging. Mental trauma and just the sensation of pain/helplessness is just as bad if not worse because it can be sustained indefinitely. Every suldam we meet including Tuon shows that they enjoy breaking damane in this fashion and share the same core attitude. This makes them no different to Semihurge fundamentally even if their society does not view it in that light whilst in the AoL it was a crime .

[Suttree]

Every suldam we meet including Tuon shows that they enjoy breaking damane in this fashion and share the same core attitude. This makes them no different to Semihurge fundamentally even if their society does not view it in that light whilst in the AoL it was a crime .

To be clear I am not condoning the practice, it's abhorrent. Nevertheless think its time for a reread on how they go about things because you seem a bit confused. Further it comes downto perspective. They are training something that is sub human and the vast majority take no pleasure on inflcting damage. The Semi comparisons do not fit.

[Mr Ares]

Slavery is a worse form of bondage than serfdom, especially since most of Randland seems closer to 15th century Englan with lots of small independent farmers where we have royal magistrates and a basic notion of the law. With slavery, you are property and there are no limits on what you can do to that person. It is infinitly worse for that reason. In Tear, a commoner can be accused of a crime they have't commited and be executed (laws Rand changed and which are considered exceptional).

 

The suldam make no secret of what they do to break damane. They publicly display such women on leashs and punish them as it pleases them, or if they are just sadistic. People and communities would object to women being taken away and it would be easy to learn or observe the fate of the damane; any Seanchan soldier or settler would know.

Except most aren't a party to what is done to break damane, they do not know what happens, they see only an end result, not how it is achieved.

 

Aes Sedai are viewed with a mix of fear, mistrust, awe and respect. It is complicated, but by and large, many rulers and nobility ansawr to the White Tower and its moral authority. In recent memory they helped organize the Grand Alliance. Moiraine was even given a party before she left by the ruling house and nobility. The borderlands and Andor have even tighter links. Most resisitance seems to be a perception that Aes Sedai meddle in the political affairs of other nations and want to take everything over. Thats far from a belief that channeling the One Power is evil. You then have to consider the oral traditions and histories which do stress that Aes Sedai traditionally fought the shadow just as much as Aes Sedai being manipulative.

The power of the WT is undeniable. People do not follow its commands because they believe it has moral authority, but because it cannot be avoided. But even so, there is a great deal of fear and mistrust for AS, and due to the actions of the AS to oppress other channelers, as far as most are concerned the only channelers are the AS, or men.

 

A tiger isn't a rational creature a woman who can channel is. If the Seanchan haven't figured out that women who can channel are not rabid animals, that they talk, are no different from ordinary people and behaved completely normally without any restraints before the adam was applied then they are just simply stupid. Such a belief could only be maintained if an uncollared damane was like a man who could channel, a belief which could not possibly be maintained on meeting groups of free channelers.

And those Seanchan who have met groups of uncollared channelers can change their minds, while those who have not met them have no reason to. Which Seanchan have had reason to question the prevailing cultural belief and still refuse to? Most of them have not been given any reason to believe that AS and channelers are something other than what they have been presented as for generations. Even the AS, many of them would only further the beliefs of the Seanchan, because the only difference is these ones have learnt subtlety - they rule behind the scenes, pulling strings. That doesn't make them any less dangerous.  

 

Um, the belief of a bunch of Imperialists led by a meglomaniacal overlord who wanted to rule the world because he could? Who believed they had a right to remove the local rulers and impose their own dominion? There is no justification or logic behind that. They used the adam to benefit themselves and secure the continent; not out of any moral cause or to right any wrongs. The case could be made that dangerous taverrn like Hawkwing needed to be contained and controlled. Millions of people died because of his empire and its collapse; much less the hundreds of thousands killed and enslaved because of the Seanchan spawn which were an offshoot of it. That society is poisonous and corrupt in a literal sense whilst we see that channelling is perfectly capable of being integrated into a healthy functioning society. If they have not learned by now and have maintained such beleifs for such long against common sense and reason then they are never going to learn. They certainly need to be driven out of Randland and hopefully Semihurges actions will have destroyed their society on Senachan itself permanently.

Hawkwing's empire brought greater peace and stability to the continent than had been known since before the Trolloc Wars. That's why Ishamael had to step in and destroy it. Luthair was sent to Seanchan on a mission, and his successors followed the mission they were given. That right there is logic and justification enough. We have seen that channelers can be include din a healthy and functioning society, but when have the Seanchan seen that? And how quickly do you want their entire society to spin 180?

 

ps-  @ Mr Ares - No, I prefer when the woman holds the whip. :D

I've never seen a lot of point in that.

 

In Egwenes POV in TGH the Suldam are very clearly portrayed as being sadistic, taking pleasure in inflicting pain on her and imagining new ways to "break her". You would not throw a dog in a boiling vat of liquid to teach it a lesson or stand on its paw and do not rely on causing prolonged suffering or agony which is intended to be degrading. At worst teaching a dog only means light taps which on a human is more like lightly flicking them with air for instance so they know right from wrong. What the Suldam do is FAR beyond any comparison to training dogs. You would not treat a dog that way. It is very much portrayed as mental torture and the women who do that are evil; pure and simple. Suldam are no different from Semihurge and they deserve the same fate as her. In fact given their inclinations I am amazed they aren't all  Darkfriends.

Fundamentally, the sul'dam are quite different from Semirhage. They have grown up in a culture which has always told them that women who can channel are dangerous animals who must be controlled, and men who can channel cannot be controlled so they must be killed. How would they know differently? The only women they would know are non-channelers, damane, or girls who have yet to start channeling. If there was a damane who was free for some time, or a marath'damane who had never been collared and lived some years as a channeler, then that could be used as evidence to change their minds, but when you don't know anything to the contrary, it's easier to accept. Semi just enjoys hurting people. She is a sadist, the sul'dam exist in a culture that rewards what they do, grants status to it. The Seanchan culture may glorify something you find abhorrent, but it shows that it is capable of adapting, and that members of that culture can change their views upon being confronted with new evidence.

[nolirion]

 

Every suldam we meet including Tuon shows that they enjoy breaking damane in this fashion and share the same core attitude. This makes them no different to Semihurge fundamentally even if their society does not view it in that light whilst in the AoL it was a crime .

To be clear I am not condoning the practice, it's abhorrent. Nevertheless think its time for a reread on how they go about things because you seem a bit confused. Further it comes downto perspective. They are training something that is sub human and the vast majority take no pleasure on inflcting damage. The Semi comparisons do not fit.

 

Semi think she is above human , and enjoy experimenting on other , through suffering or pleasure , she enjoy breaking them too . Tuon claim something simillar , can quote on this section of the forum tho .

[Suttree]

Sure you can, just put it in spoiler tags.

[nolirion]

Actually I must say I made a mistake ,  after rereading this passage

 

 

A memory of light chapter 26:"

Tuon - "I will break you myself," Fortuona said softly. "someday, your people will turn you over to me. You will forget yourself, and your arrogance will lead you to our borders. I will be waiting"

Egwene - "I plan to live centuries," Egwene hissed. "I will watch your empire crumble, Fortuona. I will watch it with joy.""

 

 

I though she said she would enjoy it , I must have mixed her speaking about Myleen and that one .

But anyway , I can't shake the feeling Tuon would enjoy the process of getting her hand arround Egwene , just like she enjoyed puting Joslyne ,Teslyn and Edesina , and that would put her on the same kind of woman as Semirhage . A woman who enjoy breaking other , subservienting their will to her own through a pain or a pleasure process .

I speak about Tuon because even if she lie to Matt and probably to herself

"I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference."

 

she know the truth of it ,  she can't hide behind the Seanchan view of Damane . She either do it because it is too confortable or because she fear for herself and her empire . As to other Seanchan , you canno't make a general assumption about them all , as Ares said the vast majority doe's it because they really believe the lie , and in that majority there is some sadist .

In our own world there are trainer who are violent and sadic towards the animal they train , it generaly yield poor result . Where I see a problem , is that in a thousand year none in The Seanchan Empire questioned the fact Damane are little more than beast or than Sul'dam are so different . The best we have toward the Damane is Tuon before she learn about the truth .

I know you can't fit everything into a book , but I would have love to see and underground movement to free the damane , probably in how it was crushed .

[False Dragon1991]

 

Slavery is a worse form of bondage than serfdom, especially since most of Randland seems closer to 15th century Englan with lots of small independent farmers where we have royal magistrates and a basic notion of the law. With slavery, you are property and there are no limits on what you can do to that person. It is infinitly worse for that reason. In Tear, a commoner can be accused of a crime they have't commited and be executed (laws Rand changed and which are considered exceptional).

 

The suldam make no secret of what they do to break damane. They publicly display such women on leashs and punish them as it pleases them, or if they are just sadistic. People and communities would object to women being taken away and it would be easy to learn or observe the fate of the damane; any Seanchan soldier or settler would know.

Except most aren't a party to what is done to break damane, they do not know what happens, they see only an end result, not how it is achieved.

 

 

A tiger isn't a rational creature a woman who can channel is. If the Seanchan haven't figured out that women who can channel are not rabid animals, that they talk, are no different from ordinary people and behaved completely normally without any restraints before the adam was applied then they are just simply stupid. Such a belief could only be maintained if an uncollared damane was like a man who could channel, a belief which could not possibly be maintained on meeting groups of free channelers.

And those Seanchan who have met groups of uncollared channelers can change their minds, while those who have not met them have no reason to. Which Seanchan have had reason to question the prevailing cultural belief and still refuse to? Most of them have not been given any reason to believe that AS and channelers are something other than what they have been presented as for generations. Even the AS, many of them would only further the beliefs of the Seanchan, because the only difference is these ones have learnt subtlety - they rule behind the scenes, pulling strings. That doesn't make them any less dangerous.  

 

Um, the belief of a bunch of Imperialists led by a meglomaniacal overlord who wanted to rule the world because he could? Who believed they had a right to remove the local rulers and impose their own dominion? There is no justification or logic behind that. They used the adam to benefit themselves and secure the continent; not out of any moral cause or to right any wrongs. The case could be made that dangerous taverrn like Hawkwing needed to be contained and controlled. Millions of people died because of his empire and its collapse; much less the hundreds of thousands killed and enslaved because of the Seanchan spawn which were an offshoot of it. That society is poisonous and corrupt in a literal sense whilst we see that channelling is perfectly capable of being integrated into a healthy functioning society. If they have not learned by now and have maintained such beleifs for such long against common sense and reason then they are never going to learn. They certainly need to be driven out of Randland and hopefully Semihurges actions will have destroyed their society on Senachan itself permanently.

Hawkwing's empire brought greater peace and stability to the continent than had been known since before the Trolloc Wars. That's why Ishamael had to step in and destroy it. Luthair was sent to Seanchan on a mission, and his successors followed the mission they were given. That right there is logic and justification enough. We have seen that channelers can be include din a healthy and functioning society, but when have the Seanchan seen that? And how quickly do you want their entire society to spin 180?

 

ps-  @ Mr Ares - No, I prefer when the woman holds the whip. :D

I've never seen a lot of point in that.

 

 

 

You couldn't hide that sort of practice for centuries when they are embedded in the armies, when it encompasses all of society with the recruitment and is so pervasive. Its very unlikely that people do not know what is involved. You can actually buy a damane and suldam so they probably live in peoples households. They would be aware about how they are trained and disciplined as a matter of course. So people would know that how Egwene is treated is the norm and any Randlander whose relative was taken could ask any Seanchan how its done. Theres no indication that Suldam try to cover up what they do or consider it taboo. Quite the opposite. If anything they glorify in it.

 

The Aes Sedai take oaths which sacrifice their freedom to earn the position of trust they do. They are like the Jedi Order in Star Wars and in an ideal world work towards the greater good. Encouraging peace, fighting the shadow, trying to better humanity with learning and the One Power. To try and return humanity to the Age of Legends, whose Aes Sedai they consider to be the direct successors of. If they have fallen short of those ideals or have too few sisters (and lack of male channelers) to achieve these lofty goals that does not make Aes Sedai evil or bad. Just an institution in need of being reinvigorated and put on the right track. Which Egwene is doing to a large extent. That is much more good than the Seanchan goal of world domination and spreading their ignorant barbarism.  

 

Tuon has seen proof and has not altered her mind when confronted with the evidence. Also, the Seanchan are descended from Hawkwings armies. They should know that the White Tower has existed for millennia in a perfectly functioning society.So they have seen it in their ancestral homeland.

 

They have no right to Randland. Berelain is the rightful heir to Hawkwings Empire if it were anyone. 

 

A woman with power is appealing. It is known. :)