World Without the DO

[Kilroy_was_here]

To summarize: Rand shows DO a pattern where the DO no longer exists. Rand is horrified by the world as everyone seems to have lost their personalities. Rand later decides not to kill the DO and instead reseal the DO to avoid this fate.

 

The idea really bugged me when Rand showed DO the pattern and I hated the plot of not killing the dark one. So essentially, every part of life that isn't kittens and babies is brought about by the DO? Every petty fight, disagreement, small vice are all called by the DO? Mat stealing pies from windows: DO made him do it. Rand breaking into barns and stealing eggs: DO made him do it. Gambling, drinking, arguing, fighting: all from the DO.

 

Just lost me when every little thing not puppies and kisses is caused by the DO and wouldn't exist but for the DO.

 

 

[Rudrah]

My take on the world without the DO.

 

Rand imagines a world without greed or fear because he thinks killing the DO equals removing evil from humanity. Rand’s perception is that life is full of positive and negative experiences. He thinks removing all evil / negative experience will affect how humanity enjoys the good aspects of their lives. The joys of life will lose their importance and meaning. Without the struggle to balance positive and negative experiences humanity loses that spark of spirit that combats negative forces. Basically people will be like a flock of androids. So he decides to just seal the DO away.

 

Now, my opinion is that the pattern will never let the world exist without an evil force. And that’s why Padin Fain’s character was so important. The pattern had him in place the step right into the DO’s shoes. My theory is if Rand killed the DO, Padin Fain/Mordeth/Shaisam would have been the new evil force that influences and amplifies humanities own evil tendencies.

 

RJ’s world has a foundation of balance. We could all theorize endlessly, who knows what happened in ages past. But the pattern always balances things out and the wheel keeps on turning.

[Dagon Thyne]

To summarize: Rand shows DO a pattern where the DO no longer exists. Rand is horrified by the world as everyone seems to have lost their personalities. Rand later decides not to kill the DO and instead reseal the DO to avoid this fate.

 

The idea really bugged me when Rand showed DO the pattern and I hated the plot of not killing the dark one. So essentially, every part of life that isn't kittens and babies is brought about by the DO? Every petty fight, disagreement, small vice are all called by the DO? Mat stealing pies from windows: DO made him do it. Rand breaking into barns and stealing eggs: DO made him do it. Gambling, drinking, arguing, fighting: all from the DO.

 

Just lost me when every little thing not puppies and kisses is caused by the DO and wouldn't exist but for the DO.

Rand realizes that good and evil are one and the same.  Two halves of the same whole.  Tranquility and Chaos......Creation and Destruction......One can not survive without the other.  The Dark One must exist in order for the world to have any meaning and for people to remain whole. 

[MarkDiLillo]

It was poorly written so there are a lot of readers that are left misunderstanding, but I think the whole concept is there if you look for it.  The concept is that the DO is not a deity or god or anything of the sort; he is a force of nature.  Just as saidar and saidin work together and against one another to turn the WoT, the DO works against and with whatever his polar opposite is (the creator I suppose) to allow us to have free-will.  The whole bit at the end shows that the DO himself does not possess any true power at all....its his followers that have the power.  They operate under the false assumption that he is a god that will remake the world but in reality they are in the process of remaking the world during the entire series as they follow him.  The DO will not just break loose one day and break everything, instead it was about HIS FOLLOWERS breaking the spirit and breaking the hope of the world in his name.  The Last Battle was only the last battle because if the good guys lost then they'd lose hope.  The Forsaken and followers of the DO would effectively be in control of the world and they would stomp all hope into the ground with terrible oppressive dictatorships forever (or at least for an entire Age).

 

The reason the DO didn't want Rand dead was because his victory would be ensured for an Age or many Ages if Rand turned to his side.  If Rand never turned then he would die a martyr and people would cling to that thread of hope that the Dragon would one day be born again to save them.  That thread of hope is what the DO wanted to eliminate by turning Rand instead of killing him.

 

The only actual moment in the series where the world was in danger of being destroyed was when Rand was about to destroy it himself on Dragonmount.  Note how unimportant the CK was to the series other than having some actual fantasy-based uses (a tool to do the impossible with; cleanse saidin).  Rand just walking in and using the CK to demolish SG and kill everyone on the DO's side would not have been an end to anything; it would have just delayed everything.  The only way the good guys could win was to have a complete and total spiritual victory.  Again, this shows how terribly bad Brandon botched the last book.  He filled it with endless battle scenes because he missed how important the actual metaphorical battle was.  I suspect if RJ had written the book it would have been far less focused on mindless battle scenes and would have focused more on the spiritual struggle.  The only way the story makes sense (how the DO wants Rand dead sometimes, then wants him turned other times, how he mentions that the Dragon has gone to the DO's side before and the world hasn't ended, etc) is with this understanding in mind.  It's actually an amazing story once you realize what it was supposed to be in the end...it is just extremely unfortunate that we didn't get the real ending.  Instead, we got fan fic from a reader/fan who didn't truly grasp the concept of what RJ had in mind yet followed his notes enough to provide a glimmer of what RJ really was after.

 

Anyways, the concept is that the DO is a necessary component of free will.  Just as he was utterly powerless without his followers, without the DO existing there would be no ability to choose evil and the world would lack free will entirely.  Brandon made an utter mess of the message, but the entire series is about free will and choices people make.  There was no DO as far as the world was concerned...there was only his followers and the evil they caused in his name.  The bore did nothing other than provide a peephole where some evil voice could whisper things into the ears of people and convince them to do bad things.

[jedman67]

The DO is indeed a diety or god of evil of some sort. His influence through the wheel and pattern, much like the Creators influence through the wheel and pattern, is necessary to form the pattern, to create the balance and the age lace that makes up the wheel of time. the DO is real and is powerful without his followers; but you are correct in the spiritual/metaphysical component as well.

[MarkDiLillo]

Whether or not he is an actual deity is not important though...the important part is that he is literally POWERLESS without his followers.

 

What did the DO actually do without his followers?

 

Taint saidin?  Not really...Lews Therin did this.  The Dark One tainted saidin in the same way as a wall hits someone in the face when they walk into it.  It was a reaction of touching/running into the wall.

 

The only literal thing the DO seemed to actually do himself in the series was to fix the weather in eternal summer and winter.  Yet the mechanisms of how that occurred are so vague and not explained that it's hard to use those as examples.  In fact, I think the only reference we have that the DO actually took a hand himself was Moridin mentioning that his master would be displeased bc he had exerted a lot of effort to fix the seasons in place.

[MasterAblar]

 

Taint saidin?  Not really...Lews Therin did this.  The Dark One tainted saidin in the same way as a wall hits someone in the face when they walk into it.  It was a reaction of touching/running into the wall.

 

 

The wall doesn't hit you though, you hit the wall. It's called the DO's "counterstroke" so there was definitely an action by the DO there.

 

Also there's the fact that the seals had to be broken at the right time. If the DO is powerless on his own why does it matter when they're broken since the DO's influence only exists through his followers according to you. The DO also definitely interacted with Rand during their fight. And he brought the dead back to life by snatching their souls. So clearly he can act on his own. It's just that he's limited by the seals.

[Kilroy_was_here]

what about the power to bring those back from the dead? that has to be pretty impressive.

 

As far as a world with the DO: my memory was the creator was neither good nor evil, the DO was the evil that had be balanced out by men. But that shouldn't mean that men couldn't be bad without the DO's taint. 

[MasterAblar]

what about the power to bring those back from the dead? that has to be pretty impressive.

 

As far as a world with the DO: my memory was the creator was neither good nor evil, the DO was the evil that had be balanced out by men. But that shouldn't mean that men couldn't be bad without the DO's taint. 

 

I believe it's the pattern that is neither good nor evil.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

Taint saidin?  Not really...Lews Therin did this.  The Dark One tainted saidin in the same way as a wall hits someone in the face when they walk into it.  It was a reaction of touching/running into the wall.

 

 

The wall doesn't hit you though, you hit the wall. It's called the DO's "counterstroke" so there was definitely an action by the DO there.

 

Also there's the fact that the seals had to be broken at the right time. If the DO is powerless on his own why does it matter when they're broken since the DO's influence only exists through his followers according to you. The DO also definitely interacted with Rand during their fight. And he brought the dead back to life by snatching their souls. So clearly he can act on his own. It's just that he's limited by the seals.

 

 

It is made very clear in the series that saidin was tainted as a result of LTT using saidin and "touching" the DO with it.  Perhaps the DO took the opportunity to taint saidin when it touched him and perhaps he could have also chosen not to taint saidin, but we will never know.  Regardless though, the DO clearly has some "powers' of a kind.  Yes, he can bring his followers back from the dead...but again that's just him bringing his followers back to help him some more because he can't do it on his own.

 

As for the whole situation with the seals...I have no answer for that.  Something about the whole seal plot piece seems off though and I suspect that is a casualty of RJ not living to finish the story himself.  They don't even make sense in the context of the story assuming the DO will actually break the world.  The bore was wide open back in the AoL until it was sealed, so why was it so disastrous that they open back to that level again in Rand's time?  There is definitely a missing piece to the puzzle regarding the seals.

 

What I'm trying to say though is not that the DO is totally unable to influence the world or do anything whatsoever.  It's merely that his power was through his followers and he was never actually going to break free and end the world.  This is the only explanation that makes sense when you think about how the DO couldn't make up his mind as to whether or not he wanted Rand to die, and when you consider how RJ said that the Dragon had turned to the shadow in the past.  Remember that when Rand turned to the shadow in the past it was not a "win" for the DO.  It was a draw.  The fundamental dogma of the WoT is that there is no beginning nor an ending.  There was never a way for the DO to win or lose; losing meant being locked up again until another idiot let him lose, and winning meant allowing his minions to rule the world for an Age or more until Rand was born again and brought hope back to the world.  Either way, the Wheel of Time continues to turn and life goes on.  However, life going on under the rule of the DO for an Age or under a balance of free-will with the DO locked up has a very different meaning for the people of Randland.  That is what Rand fought for.

[Suttree]

It is made very clear in the series that saidin was tainted as a result of LTT using saidin and "touching" the DO with it.  Perhaps the DO took the opportunity to taint saidin when it touched him and perhaps he could have also chosen not to taint saidin, but we will never know.

 

Interesting answer on this topic...

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

Robert Jordan

The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

 

[MarkDiLillo]

Right.  It seems like RJ didn't have his mind firmly made up either about whether the DO intentionally tainted Saidin or not...because it didn't matter.  What mattered was that LTT walked into that wall and screwed up humanity for 3000 years so he received the blame.  Reinforcing the point that the DO didn't do it; LTT's actions are what resulted in the taint.

[MasterAblar]

It is made very clear in the series that saidin was tainted as a result of LTT using saidin and "touching" the DO with it.  Perhaps the DO took the opportunity to taint saidin when it touched him and perhaps he could have also chosen not to taint saidin, but we will never know.  Regardless though, the DO clearly has some "powers' of a kind.  Yes, he can bring his followers back from the dead...but again that's just him bringing his followers back to help him some more because he can't do it on his own.

 

As for the whole situation with the seals...I have no answer for that.  Something about the whole seal plot piece seems off though and I suspect that is a casualty of RJ not living to finish the story himself.  They don't even make sense in the context of the story assuming the DO will actually break the world.  The bore was wide open back in the AoL until it was sealed, so why was it so disastrous that they open back to that level again in Rand's time?  There is definitely a missing piece to the puzzle regarding the seals.

 

 

Suttre answered the taint part.

 

As for the seals, well, while the bore was open entirely in the AoL the DO was still imprisoned so his influence was still limited if greater than what it is in the books. If I recall correctly, one of the worries about LTT's plan about placing the seals was that it took extreme precision, for if they were even slightly misplaced it could result in the prison being torn open completely. Perhaps a similar thing would have happened if the seals were broken at a moment when Rand was no there to contain the DO. The sheer force of the DO's full power bashing against the prison might have been too much for it to hold, resulting in the DO being freed entirely and gaining far greater influence over the world. We also don't know just how great the DO's influence was in the AoL when he was unhindered by the seals. Perhaps there were Aes Sedai actively fighting to contain his influence. We don't really have enough information to come to a conclusive answer.

 

 

Right.  It seems like RJ didn't have his mind firmly made up either about whether the DO intentionally tainted Saidin or not...because it didn't matter.  What mattered was that LTT walked into that wall and screwed up humanity for 3000 years so he received the blame.  Reinforcing the point that the DO didn't do it; LTT's actions are what resulted in the taint.

 

Well, that's a bit harsh. He may have screwed them over but he also saved them by those very actions.

[Thornan]

I always saw the DO as a force of nature. Killing HIm to save the pattern always seemed to me like trying to kill gravity in an attempt to fly. Not a perfect analogy, but fitting in a way. You soon find that the removal of that opposing force doesn't get you what you bargained for.

[Balefire2008]

People are inherently good and evil. By our choices and free will we may determine how good or how evil we are; thus, good and evil are integral parts of humanity. Humankind cannot be perfected or it will cease to be what it was. Personally, I like the approach used since the eradication of the DO would have been far too simple a plot line and rather predictable. Instead the book made an observation about the nature of humanity and the nature of good and evil. Each term requires the other to define itself - if there was no evil then what meaning would good have? Without one or the other everything would just be and that is certainly no state for humankind to exist in. I mean look at how many character you grow to love in this series at some point make a wrong choice, act out of rage, are envious, are self-centered...they are all flawed, but yet they are lovable characters. As such, I don't think the DO would be impossible to destroy in the series (though I find the suggestion of Padin Fain replacing the DO intriguing) I merely think that doing so would destroy all of creation just as much the destruction of all good.

 

Concerning the seals, it seemed to me the idea made sense since the DO was nearly free from the prison and so to remove the seals (seemingly the last thing in its way) would have fully unleashed the DO on the world. Rand encountered the DO and faced him fully; however, the DO was contained to a location versus being free in the whole world. Rand is a human and thus also contained to a location. The only way then to have these two opposing forces directly clash was while the DO was contained and once Rand had control of the DO it was safe to remove the failing prison and build it anew (no more patching). What I don't understand is why the followers of the DO didn't just bust the seals when they got them since that should have ended it all right there since Rand would never have been able to get the "genie back in the bottle". 

 

About Fain, I was thinking that his power might somehow had been required to reforge a new and stronger prison for the DO. Clearly RJ or BS didn't follow this line of thought but given the nature of Fain's power it seemed to be something wholly distinct from saidin, saidar, and the true power. Furthermore, what is the counter force to the true power since everything is about balance - it seems unequal to pit it against a split force...why not some power of creation? I felt like their might have been some allusion to this idea when Rand discussed his weaves against the DO being pure and not using the sub-powers such a fire/air/etc...but some direct resolution on that would have been nice.

[Mr Ares]

People are inherently good and evil. By our choices and free will we may determine how good or how evil we are; thus, good and evil are integral parts of humanity. Humankind cannot be perfected or it will cease to be what it was. Personally, I like the approach used since the eradication of the DO would have been far too simple a plot line and rather predictable. Instead the book made an observation about the nature of humanity and the nature of good and evil. Each term requires the other to define itself - if there was no evil then what meaning would good have? Without one or the other everything would just be and that is certainly no state for humankind to exist in. I mean look at how many character you grow to love in this series at some point make a wrong choice, act out of rage, are envious, are self-centered...they are all flawed, but yet they are lovable characters. As such, I don't think the DO would be impossible to destroy in the series (though I find the suggestion of Padin Fain replacing the DO intriguing) I merely think that doing so would destroy all of creation just as much the destruction of all good.

If good and evil cannot be defined on their own, then they do not exist. A mere absence, a lack of something, is not something which exists in its own right, but the term can still have relevance in relation to the thing that is lacking. So one could term evil an absence of good, but good can still have meaning, or vice versa, but one of the terms must be defined or they are empty and circular concepts. "Evil is what good isn't and good is what evil isn't" is a pointless definition. At least one of these concepts must have an existence independent of the other, so the other cna be defined as its absence. If you want to define something as an absence, you have to define the thing that is lacking. So good and evil cannot be concepts which cannot exist without the other - either both are things, or one is a thing and the othe ris its absence. If neither has an independent existence as a concept, then it doesn't exist. Without one or the other, you either end up with a world of pure good (which is bad) or a world of pure evil (which is good - evil, thou art my good). To destroy all evil in the world would create a perfectly good world (unless you define it as evil exists and good is the absence of evil).

[MarkDiLillo]

In a world where the possibility to choose evil is absent then there is no good either because what good implies is a willful choice to do good.  Good and evil are often described as singular entities when they are actually more often descriptors of moral choices that can be made or have been made already.  When the option to chose is removed then there is no good or evil left because there is no choice.  This argument can really turn into pages and pages of discussion, but it's safe to say that both of you are correct on different levels.

[Agitel]

To summarize: Rand shows DO a pattern where the DO no longer exists. Rand is horrified by the world as everyone seems to have lost their personalities. Rand later decides not to kill the DO and instead reseal the DO to avoid this fate.

 

The idea really bugged me when Rand showed DO the pattern and I hated the plot of not killing the dark one. So essentially, every part of life that isn't kittens and babies is brought about by the DO? Every petty fight, disagreement, small vice are all called by the DO? Mat stealing pies from windows: DO made him do it. Rand breaking into barns and stealing eggs: DO made him do it. Gambling, drinking, arguing, fighting: all from the DO.

 

Just lost me when every little thing not puppies and kisses is caused by the DO and wouldn't exist but for the DO.

 

They aren't called by the Dark One. The Dark One isn't pulling people's strings. People are dynamic. They are push and pull. They have virtues and vices. The theme of the Wheel of Time has always been about balance. Men and women, saidin and saidar, and in the end, good and evil. The Dark One isn't some devil sitting on your shoulder, he's the manifestation of the dark part of human kind that's developed into an intelligence. There may be more to the metaphysics than RJ and Brandon ever explained, but I certainly see him as the source of that darkness in us, not a puppeteer or tempter (at least not when his ability to influence the Pattern is cut off). 

 

I'd like to say that I actually think Perrin's arc helps to show that the darkness in us isn't always evil. His struggle with the necessity of violence and his interactions with the Tinkers help to bring this to light. The ability to fight and defend yourself and do violence to others for a good cause wouldn't be possible in this world without the Dark One, either. Without the Dark One, human kind would be like the Tinkers in some respects, except the aversion to violence even in self defense (and other harm) wouldn't even be a choice, it would just be all you could do. It's up to individuals to use the light and the dark within themselves to decide what to do with it, and you can use both to do not just evil things but good things as well. Perrin's struggle with the axe and the hammer is much the same. The axe can only be used to destroy. The hammer, however, is balanced, and can be used for creation or destruction as needed. It's all about the purpose and cause you choose to use it for.

 

There are certainly some things left unexplained that I don't think we'll ever have answers to, and some people may be uncomfortable accepting the role the Dark One truly plays in the Pattern without knowing exactly HOW it works, but I hope this post has been helpful.

[Agitel]

Sorry for the double post, but I don't know how to copy and paste quotes.

 

What I don't understand is why the followers of the DO didn't just bust the seals when they got them since that should have ended it all right there since Rand would never have been able to get the "genie back in the bottle". 

 

The Dark One wanted to face his adversary. The Dark One didn't want to just "win" a conventional battle, he wanted to break humankind, particularly Rand. People uniting together against him actually seemed to have a small healing effect to his influence, too.

[MarkDiLillo]

Sorry for the double post, but I don't know how to copy and paste quotes.

 

What I don't understand is why the followers of the DO didn't just bust the seals when they got them since that should have ended it all right there since Rand would never have been able to get the "genie back in the bottle". 

 

The Dark One wanted to face his adversary. The Dark One didn't want to just "win" a conventional battle, he wanted to break humankind, particularly Rand. People uniting together against him actually seemed to have a small healing effect to his influence, too.

 

Yep, and in addition to that...they did not have access to all of the seals for a large part of the story.  So that was impossible.  Furthermore, while the last book kind of left the water muddy, it is evident that the seals would not have "unleashed" the DO at all.  Like I said above, I don't think the DO could ever be released.  A victory for him would have been a world where his followers rule for him and destroy all the hope of humanity for an Age or more to come.  The DO could exert his influence on the world and help crush hope, but eventually another Age would come where people would have an opportunity to reverse this scenario and seal the DO back up.  This is the only scenario that makes sense if you consider the fact that RJ has said that the Champion of Light has been turned to the Shadow before and the result was a "draw".  The Wheel of Time is neverending, so there is not a way to win or lose.  A win is simply sealing the DO back up and allowing humanity to live a free life whereas a lose is the DO winning and humanity lives a terrible life under the DO's minions rule for an Age or more.  There is no end of the world where the DO breaks free and destroys all of creation.  The closest we saw to that was Rand about to destroy the world on Dragonmount...and even then I would submit that he could not have destroyed creation but merely broke the world for a few Ages or more.

 

The theme of the series is that there is no end to the turning of the Wheel of Time.  With that in mind, the Last Battle was simply a battle for humanities future in the next Age or two.  It was fully possible for Rand to lose and the DO to win, but the DO winning would not have been the end of all things as we were lead to believe.

 

Of course, I could be wrong on a lot of this because Brandon's books imply otherwise throughout (yet also reinforce this point at the same time), but I am pretty confident that he missed the mark.  The details leading up to the end were filled in by Brandon, but a lot of the ending material is being drawn from RJ sources/notes,etc. 

[Leopoled Boothe]

To summarize: Rand shows DO a pattern where the DO no longer exists. Rand is horrified by the world as everyone seems to have lost their personalities. Rand later decides not to kill the DO and instead reseal the DO to avoid this fate.

 

The idea really bugged me when Rand showed DO the pattern and I hated the plot of not killing the dark one. So essentially, every part of life that isn't kittens and babies is brought about by the DO? Every petty fight, disagreement, small vice are all called by the DO? Mat stealing pies from windows: DO made him do it. Rand breaking into barns and stealing eggs: DO made him do it. Gambling, drinking, arguing, fighting: all from the DO.

 

Just lost me when every little thing not puppies and kisses is caused by the DO and wouldn't exist but for the DO.

 

 

To summarize: Rand shows DO a pattern where the DO no longer exists. Rand is horrified by the world as everyone seems to have lost their personalities. Rand later decides not to kill the DO and instead reseal the DO to avoid this fate.

 

The idea really bugged me when Rand showed DO the pattern and I hated the plot of not killing the dark one. So essentially, every part of life that isn't kittens and babies is brought about by the DO? Every petty fight, disagreement, small vice are all called by the DO? Mat stealing pies from windows: DO made him do it. Rand breaking into barns and stealing eggs: DO made him do it. Gambling, drinking, arguing, fighting: all from the DO.

 

Just lost me when every little thing not puppies and kisses is caused by the DO and wouldn't exist but for the DO.

 

Did it ever actually say that none of those things occurred in the DO free world?  It made clear that truly evil actions such assassinating queens were unheard of in this world and so no palace guards were necessary, but I don't think it said people never argued, drank or gambled.   The problem I had with the DO free world scenario was the existence of things such a Shadar Logath and the Finns.  These things showed that evil could exist independent of the DO so why would killing the DO eliminate all the evil from the world?  Perhaps there is an explanation, but to me this seems like a major plot hole.

[Agitel]

Shaisam might make an interesting discussion, but perhaps "evil" is too broad a word. He's the Dark One, not the Evil One. Perhaps he's just the "darkness," and more specifically, the "darkness that exists in humankind." He doesn't necessarily need to encompass all evil ever. The point is, we don't know all the rules or the limits, we just know that the Dark One is necessary for humans to... umm.... have a full range of choices. We'll phrase it that way.

[Finnssss22]

Whether or not he is an actual deity is not important though...the important part is that he is literally POWERLESS without his followers.

 

What did the DO actually do without his followers?

 

Taint saidin?  Not really...Lews Therin did this.  The Dark One tainted saidin in the same way as a wall hits someone in the face when they walk into it.  It was a reaction of touching/running into the wall.

 

The only literal thing the DO seemed to actually do himself in the series was to fix the weather in eternal summer and winter.  Yet the mechanisms of how that occurred are so vague and not explained that it's hard to use those as examples.  In fact, I think the only reference we have that the DO actually took a hand himself was Moridin mentioning that his master would be displeased bc he had exerted a lot of effort to fix the seasons in place.

 

This is one of the silliest things I have read.

Has no power my ass.

 

The Blight

Shadar Haran is (RJ quote) "a shadowy projection of the DO himself"

The weather

The bringing back of souls from death

The counter stroke that tainted saidin, called a counter stroke by RJ himself, not just from touching the DO with saidin

The degradation of TAR

The spoiling of food

The inability for anything to grow

The corruption of metals, trees, you name it

The "Bubbles of Evil"

 

Powerless indeed.

[Suttree]

 

Whether or not he is an actual deity is not important though...the important part is that he is literally POWERLESS without his followers.

 

What did the DO actually do without his followers?

 

Taint saidin?  Not really...Lews Therin did this.  The Dark One tainted saidin in the same way as a wall hits someone in the face when they walk into it.  It was a reaction of touching/running into the wall.

 

The only literal thing the DO seemed to actually do himself in the series was to fix the weather in eternal summer and winter.  Yet the mechanisms of how that occurred are so vague and not explained that it's hard to use those as examples.  In fact, I think the only reference we have that the DO actually took a hand himself was Moridin mentioning that his master would be displeased bc he had exerted a lot of effort to fix the seasons in place.

 

This is one of the silliest things I have read.

Has no power my ass.

 

The Blight

Shadar Haran is (RJ quote) "a shadowy projection of the DO himself"

The weather

The bringing back of souls from death

The counter stroke that tainted saidin, called a counter stroke by RJ himself, not just from touching the DO with saidin

The degradation of TAR

The spoiling of food

The inability for anything to grow

The corruption of metals, trees, you name it

The "Bubbles of Evil"

 

Powerless indeed.

 

 

While I totally agree the overall statement is silly, couple things in that list are interesting to discuss as there can potentially be multiple causes.

 

1. With the taint/counterstroke as has already been provided in thread:

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

Robert Jordan

The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

2. In regards to "The spoiling of food/The inability for anything to grow:

 

KC

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

 

  Question

How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

Brandon Sanderson

We've heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief—many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the king was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.

 

 

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Whether or not he is an actual deity is not important though...the important part is that he is literally POWERLESS without his followers.

 

What did the DO actually do without his followers?

 

Taint saidin?  Not really...Lews Therin did this.  The Dark One tainted saidin in the same way as a wall hits someone in the face when they walk into it.  It was a reaction of touching/running into the wall.

 

The only literal thing the DO seemed to actually do himself in the series was to fix the weather in eternal summer and winter.  Yet the mechanisms of how that occurred are so vague and not explained that it's hard to use those as examples.  In fact, I think the only reference we have that the DO actually took a hand himself was Moridin mentioning that his master would be displeased bc he had exerted a lot of effort to fix the seasons in place.

 

This is one of the silliest things I have read.

Has no power my ass.

 

The Blight

Shadar Haran is (RJ quote) "a shadowy projection of the DO himself"

The weather

The bringing back of souls from death

The counter stroke that tainted saidin, called a counter stroke by RJ himself, not just from touching the DO with saidin

The degradation of TAR

The spoiling of food

The inability for anything to grow

The corruption of metals, trees, you name it

The "Bubbles of Evil"

 

Powerless indeed.

 

 

While I totally agree the overall statement is silly, couple things in that list are interesting to discuss as there can potentially be multiple causes.

 

1. With the taint/counterstroke as has already been provided in thread:

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

Robert Jordan

The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

2. In regards to "The spoiling of food/The inability for anything to grow:

 

KC

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

 

  Question

How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

Brandon Sanderson

We've heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief—many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the king was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, there's a couple of things there that might have alternate explanations but only a couple and even in RJ's answer about the tainting of saidin, he still states clearly that it was an intentional act on the DO's part not a side-effect as Mark D tried to convey.