Why the wheel of time is Almost epic ( IMO)

[Suttree]

There is no comparison. An exact quote would help but it seems you are taking the statement far too literally our out of context.

[Morden]

The thing to keep in mind is that this is a society where as a whole Females are considered equal to if not Superior to men. If you could see the way women are generally treated in a feudal society then you would probably think the men in WoT have it fairly easily.

 

But yeah I agree that it is just too much and the women generally seem to have deep psychological issues and or perversions which make them somewhat unlikable, not to mention the amount of outright sadism in this book, theres a lot of abusive personalities.

 

In a way a lot of the womens problems are because of the breaking though, they look down on men because it was male channellers who broke the world. And as 3000 years have passed they dont understand that it was the better of the available options. They just think "stupid men have been doing stupid things for thousands of years..."

[Rhienne]

So I have to look for the reasons that they are crappy people? I never said Nynaeve shouldn't have followed the crew, in fact it was noble, but where I do have issue is her ongoing hate of Moiraine, which to any reasonable person is unwarranted, unless of course you are a 12 year old girl.

 

Lets look at Elayne and Egwene and almyra all ganging up on Rand because he didn't try to convince Elayne not to leave, and she took this as a sign he didn't love her, firstly what a childish thing to do to write two contradicting letters, very highschool, not daughter queen stuff. It is basically an attack on him because he didn't show the appropriate female emotions that Elayne wanted, lets not forget he's got a bit of stress around him atm and she's playing stupid mind games with him. Again this is realistic I suppose, and I can see a silly girl doing exactly this, in fact I do see it whenever my uncles wife says she is going for a girls night and he says he hopes she enjoys it and he might hang with the guys, suddenly turns into a fight about he doesn't want her around. Because the behaviour may be justified from the woman's perspective does not make it any less terrible to read

Yes, Elayne's behaviour is immature, and yes it is like something a hight school student would do.  But Elayne is only 18 (maybe 17 at this point in the story?) - she is at high school age.  She's lived in a palace all her life and is unlikely to have had any opportunities to interact with men other than under chaperoned conditions.  Her behaviour with Rand is pretty typical for a teenager with her 'first love'.

 

R.e. Nynaeve's hatred of Moiraine, RAFO.  Nynaeve hides her own insecurities behind her anger, and over the course of the series she does grow up and deal with her issues, although her main character growth is really books 8-13.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Thank you all for input, but I have quit the series. I struggled for days trying to keep going because I Hate to leave something half done, but as it was I was skipping most female chapters besides Mins, also I was beggining to hate Rand as a character, Mr Theron Lord of the Morning would have been a much better read and should have taken over Rands mind haha. I simply was not enjoying the reading and would often find myself laughing bemused and disgusted at new developments, not taking it at all seriously. For instance Rands self harm at the loss of maidens, the secrets that women who participate in the dreaming conceal, Certain maidens doing what they want without regard to Rand, jeez even the women Ogir rule over their men like master and dog. Obviously the best option is to go full Arthur Hawkwing on the countries. Good move finding the false dragon to train up warriors, but why does Rand have to be a complete douche to him? I would think he would want a close friend, that knows what it is like to channel with great power, to talk to, I know I would, love earns greater loyalty than does fear.

 

Once again, a great and epic plot and story line, but the characters so utterly fail in every respect that I can't bring myself to finish, instead I have dreamed up an ending for myself that I am currently enjoying.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya....just amazed that someone can read so far into the books and conclude that the characters have not changed.  WoT has some of the best character development that I have ever seen (granted it also has luxury of 1000's of pages to develop its characters over).  The characters keep their internal core of who they really are and very slowly and very realistically (with some exceptions) mature and develop.  They are the same people as they were when they left EF, but they are also a dozen times more mature, learned, and worldly.

 

Sounds more like you just don't like the series and are unable to properly articulate why.

[Tarvalantarverann]

In my conclusion I didn't say the characters hadn't changed at all, because they have, but that is just knowledge of how to do stuff and how the world works as you said. The core is the same and the core is the problem. Rand simultaneously tries to reconcile with having to use people to save the world, and letting women die for the cause. but men can die in droves for all he cares. Same with Mat and Perrin. Egwene becomes one of the most powerful single people on the planet yet has petty flights of fancy and jealousy over Gawain. When Rand is linked to that eye sedai without his permission, he should have ripped her head off or made her reverse it, instead he pretends it never happened, and walks away, whether it ends up being good or bad for him, it's messed up. The character can "develop" to the ends of the earth, for all it matters, if I find them horrible to read. This is my opinion and I didn't want to try and persuade, just see if anyone else thought similarly because it was doing my head in that this could be considered one of the best, as told by many resources and acquaintances of mine.

 

I think I made my main point pretty clear: men are treated like shit throughout, by each other but more importantly by the women. So you say this is because of the breaking of the world where the male half is tainted, so the world is suspicious of men or whatever? Cool. I say that plot is crap.

[Tarvalantarverann]

And really a dozen times more mature? Mat wouldn't be funny if he went all mature, besides he got his knowledge majiked in his head, great development there. Egwene promising to have Gawain whether he wanted to or not, sounds like an angry toddler. Perrin still denying the title of lord even after months in effective command of the Two Rivers, the whole "I'm just a blacksmith" routine fails to work after book three, if not earlier. Even the travellers, wtf is wrong with someone that won't fight even to defend themselves, from certain death, ffs Buddhist monks do! Sounds like religious fundamentalists after a tornado that kills hundreds, "it is gods will there is a meaning and it must be for the better".

 

You are right, I just dislike the series and I could keep articulating why for ages. Such a shame because like I've said before the basic story is pretty cool, most everything else is shit.

[Norseman]

I'm with you almost all the way.  I haven't quit, as such, but I suddenly found I couldn't take any more and had to put the books away.  When I regain sufficient motivation I'll first avail myself of the book summaries provided by Tar Valon and then re-start proper with The Gathering Storm.  Hopefully that'll bypass most of the remaining awfulness.

 

It's a shame, because I actually don't think most everything else is sh*t; I just think the characters are so utterly dreadful that they totally overshadow everything about the books that is enjoyable.

[Tarvalantarverann]

I do suppose I went over board with that statement, it is more like you said, the characters are at fault.

 

There are a couple of things I would change and some ideas, like guns for instance, if that crew that makes fireworks have access to some form of gun powder, guns shouldn't be far off from that world, then inevitably tanks and nukes and who needs the one power then right? Haha I thought The Chosen were way better characters than the good guys, more believable and enjoyable to read, Rand and the others on the other hand are exactly how Demandred describes him, pretty incompetent besides all the powers they got without all of the hard work the immortals have out in.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Put in*

[MarkDiLillo]

Uh...guns and then tanks and nukes not very far off?!  Wtf are you smoking???

 

And The Chosen are actually some of the biggest complaints of the entire series as they are one dimensional, classic bad guy characters that appear to all be copy cat clones of one another in a different skin.  It's fair if you don't like the series, but the good guys are very well developed characters that change dramatically throughout the story - albeit at a realistic pace IMO.  The Chosen are literally cardboard cut outs.

 

I will point out that the Perrin whining about being a lord story arc is universally disliked though.  One of the things RJ handled poorly in the series IMO.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Lol it was a joke, the point is they seemed to have to tech for developing muskets or whatever, at the very least bombs that don't need an aye sedai around to enchant them first, or cannon. It was less than a thousand years since gun powder reached Europe till the first nuke was dropped, just pointing out the inevitable direction they were headed.

 

Glad we agree on something

[Tarvalantarverann]

Also when rand inspected that institute in Cairhein it was obvious scientific development was going full steam ahead, even though Rand single handedly chose which ones had merits and which ones didn't deserve funding. Due of course to his extensive knowledge if stuff and things.

[Suttree]

 For instance Rands self harm at the loss of maidens,

 

You have said this a couple times and I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

[BFG]

I'm with you almost all the way.  I haven't quit, as such, but I suddenly found I couldn't take any more and had to put the books away.  When I regain sufficient motivation I'll first avail myself of the book summaries provided by Tar Valon and then re-start proper with The Gathering Storm.  Hopefully that'll bypass most of the remaining awfulness.

 

It's a shame, because I actually don't think most everything else is sh*t; I just think the characters are so utterly dreadful that they totally overshadow everything about the books that is enjoyable.

 

Sorry you're not enjoying them (and Tarvalantarverann), but if you're going to skip some I'd recommend starting again at KoD - that has some of Nyn and Mats greatest scenes (imo)

 

 

Sutt - I assume Tarvalantarverann is talking about the list.  Certainly agree that's a form of self-harm.

[Tarvalantarverann]

There is also a scene in book seven I think it is just after they go to shadar logath with the Ogir, (sorry can't find page numbers as I listen to audio books) where upon stepping back through the gateway it is noticed by one of the maidens that Rand has scratches a line into the top of his hand. It then explains the pain is nothing compared to the emotional loss, and something about him having done it many times before... I think. Well I just got the impression it wasn't a one time thing, i will try to find the exact quote.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Here is the exact quote "As the last of the Aiel went through, Sulin hissed, and he glanced at her, but she was looking at his hand. At the back of his hand, where his fingernails had sliced a gash that oozed blood. Wrapped in the Void as he was, the pain might have belonged to someone else. The physical mark did not matter; it would heal. He had made deeper inside, where no one could see. One for each Maiden who died, and he never let them heal."

 

And the website where I found it: http://www.e-reading.mobi/chapter.php/80198/22/Jordan_06_Lord_of_Chaos.html

 

If you read carefully through chapter 21 in Lord of Chaos you will find it.

 

Physical and emotional self-harm. The poor lad needs some help.

[Norseman]

Sorry you're not enjoying them (and Tarvalantarverann), but if you're going to skip some I'd recommend starting again at KoD - that has some of Nyn and Mats greatest scenes (imo)

 

No worries mate, I'm just a little bit sad that a series which has been such a big deal for such a long time turned out to be so fatally flawed.

 

I'll keep the advice regarding skipping in mind.  However, I've found that in addition to book summaries there's a good number of guides out there which detail exactly where to find the read-worthy moments, so that you can supplement and flesh out the summaries.  I'll use those to pull out the good stuff and make sure I don't miss anything vital.

 

Actually, the very existence of a plethora of such guides was quite comforting, seeing as it proves that Tarvalantarverann and I aren't exactly alone in feeling as we do.  Personally I've never seen similar guides for any other book or series, which I find quite telling in itself.

 

 

As for characters growing and evolving, it has been clearly shown how they do so. One has to either not read carefully or be purposely obtuse to reach that conclusion.

 

I really don't think it has been shown at all, clearly or otherwise.  Details have been listed and have been claimed to amount to realistic character development, which in my estimation amount to no such thing.  Nor do the "but they're all so young!!" defence do anything to sway me, since (as I've pointed out already) by the standards of their society they must have been counted adults for years and have had the responsibilities to match.

 

The second sentence is just juvenile, which I suppose is why you culled it.  Since we don't agree with you we must be either bad readers or putting on an act?  Honestly...

[Suttree]

The second sentence is just juvenile, which I suppose is why you culled it.  Since we don't agree with you we must be either bad readers or putting on an act?  Honestly...

 

Honestly...nothing juvenile about stating the truth. I culled it because it has already been mentioned earlier in thread. Regardless I stand by it and your claim that there has been no evolution with the characters has been shown not only to be false but is also patently absurd. You are the one ignoring textual evidence so I guess you can tell us which category you fit into? Not suprising given the claims of skipping large portions of the story.

 

 

Here is the exact quote "As the last of the Aiel went through, Sulin hissed, and he glanced at her, but she was looking at his hand. At the back of his hand, where his fingernails had sliced a gash that oozed blood. Wrapped in the Void as he was, the pain might have belonged to someone else. The physical mark did not matter; it would heal. He had made deeper inside, where no one could see. One for each Maiden who died, and he never let them heal."

 

And the website where I found it: http://www.e-reading.mobi/chapter.php/80198/22/Jordan_06_Lord_of_Chaos.html

 

If you read carefully through chapter 21 in Lord of Chaos you will find it.

 

Physical and emotional self-harm. The poor lad needs some help.

 

Thanks for the quotet Tar. I recall it now, it happened once in the series and seems to be an immediate unconscious reaction in having to leave Liah behind. It's not as if he was cutting himself purposely as a defensive mechanism to deal with the emotional pain throughout the entire series.

[clutzyninja]

Yeah, I read that as an unconscious thing.  He was so hurt/angry that the maiden had died that he just gripped his hands hard enough for his fingernails to cut.  My interpretation anyway.

[Rhienne]

I disagree with you in general that the characters don't show growth, although I do admit that for some of them it occurs very slowly.  I think Rand, Nynaeve, and Perrin in particular don't really 'mature' until the last 3-4 books.  

 

 

 

Nor do the "but they're all so young!!" defence do anything to sway me, since (as I've pointed out already) by the standards of their society they must have been counted adults for years and have had the responsibilities to match.

I do take issue with this statement though.  Nynaeve, Tuon, and Min are treated like adults, but Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene, and Elayne (and to some extent Faile when we briefly see her with her parents in Caemlyn) are all definitely seen as the charges of their parents.  Particularly the Emond's Field bunch, who we read are still regularly strapped for bad behaviour.  Egwene is literally just recognised as an adult at the very beginning of the series, evidenced by her being allowed to braid her hair for the first time.  Rand, Mat, and Egwene still live at home and, Rand and Egwene are having their marriage planned by their parents.  The other villagers don't treat them like adults - they are excluded from the town council meeting, and grown up discussions.  

 

I think in a realistic medieval society your point would be valid, but this doesn't seem to be the case in Randland.  We do see that elderly people, e.g. Cenn Buie are about 80, so similar in age to our present day elderly people, which would explain why teenagers are not considered to be adults (as opposed to if the lifespan was 50).

[Plato]

Interesting.  I found your problems to be the most interesting parts of the series.  Characters fighting with each other, and rubbing each other the wrong way, causing them to not trust one another when they SHOULD be working together and compomising is one of the series great strengths I thought.  Instead of the usual fantasy archetypes and tropes, we get illogical and emotional children AND adults, which seems more real.

 

On current topic:  I took the setting more as a victorian setting than medieval.  Not technologically, but culturally.  If the Queen in Andor can say "The law is stronger than the crown" (I may be paraphrasing) then that society is definetly NOT medieval! 

[BFG]

I disagree with you in general that the characters don't show growth, although I do admit that for some of them it occurs very slowly.  I think Rand, Nynaeve, and Perrin in particular don't really 'mature' until the last 3-4 books.  

 

 

 

Nor do the "but they're all so young!!" defence do anything to sway me, since (as I've pointed out already) by the standards of their society they must have been counted adults for years and have had the responsibilities to match.

I do take issue with this statement though.  Nynaeve, Tuon, and Min are treated like adults, but Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene, and Elayne (and to some extent Faile when we briefly see her with her parents in Caemlyn) are all definitely seen as the charges of their parents.  Particularly the Emond's Field bunch, who we read are still regularly strapped for bad behaviour.  Egwene is literally just recognised as an adult at the very beginning of the series, evidenced by her being allowed to braid her hair for the first time.  Rand, Mat, and Egwene still live at home and, Rand and Egwene are having their marriage planned by their parents.  The other villagers don't treat them like adults - they are excluded from the town council meeting, and grown up discussions.  

 

I think in a realistic medieval society your point would be valid, but this doesn't seem to be the case in Randland.  We do see that elderly people, e.g. Cenn Buie are about 80, so similar in age to our present day elderly people, which would explain why teenagers are not considered to be adults (as opposed to if the lifespan was 50).

 

Agree with some of this but most adults were excluded from the Town Council meetings - I don't think that (by itself) is indicative that they're treated as children. 

 

 

"I want to hear what he has to say!" More than one voice was raised in protest.

   "You can't take him off! My wife sent me to buy pins!" That was Wil Congar; he hunched his shoulders at the stares some of the others gave him, but he held his ground.

   "We've a right to ask questions, too," somebody back in the crowd shouted. "I—"

   "Be silent!" the Mayor roared, producing a startled hush. "When the Council has asked its questions, Master Fain will be back to tell you all his news. And to sell you his pots and pins. Hu! Tad! Stable Master Fain's horses. "

   Tam and Bran moved in on either side of the peddler, the rest of the Council gathered behind them, and the whole cluster swept into the Winespring Inn, firmly shutting the door in the faces of those who tried to crowd inside after them. Pounding on the door brought only a single shout from the Mayor.

   "Go home!"

 

We also know that Padan Fain has been treating Rand, Mat and Perrin as adults for the past year

 

 

   At that moment Padan Fain stood up on the wagon seat, and the crowd quieted in an instant. Rand's last words exploded into utter silence, catching the peddler with an arm raised dramatically and his mouth open. Everybody turned to stare at Rand. The bony little man on the wagon, prepared to have everyone hanging on his first words, gave Rand a sharp, searching look. Rand's face reddened, and he wished he were Ewin's size so he did not stand out so clearly. His friends shifted uncomfortably, too. It had only been the year before that Fain had taken notice of them for the first time, acknowledging them as men. Fain did not usually have time for anyone too young to buy a good deal of things off his wagon. Rand hoped he had not been relegated to a child again in the peddler's eyes.

 

I think they're actually treated as if they're on the cusp of adulthood - generally treated as adults, but not when they act like kids.

[ratswot]

You'll only get hate from those who think the sun shone out of RJ's ass (I might get banned for saying this!).

 

I agree with what you're saying and I will elaborate in more detail when I start my own thread about reading TWOT. In short people have defended by saying the characters are flawed. This is nonsense. Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire are flawed. Characters in TWOT are just ... I don't really have words to describe them ... perhaps not real, could not exist in reality are the only ones I can think of.

[ratswot]

 

Sorry you're not enjoying them (and Tarvalantarverann), but if you're going to skip some I'd recommend starting again at KoD - that has some of Nyn and Mats greatest scenes (imo)

 

No worries mate, I'm just a little bit sad that a series which has been such a big deal for such a long time turned out to be so fatally flawed.

 

I'll keep the advice regarding skipping in mind.  However, I've found that in addition to book summaries there's a good number of guides out there which detail exactly where to find the read-worthy moments, so that you can supplement and flesh out the summaries.  I'll use those to pull out the good stuff and make sure I don't miss anything vital.

 

Actually, the very existence of a plethora of such guides was quite comforting, seeing as it proves that Tarvalantarverann and I aren't exactly alone in feeling as we do.  Personally I've never seen similar guides for any other book or series, which I find quite telling in itself.

 

 

As for characters growing and evolving, it has been clearly shown how they do so. One has to either not read carefully or be purposely obtuse to reach that conclusion.

 

I really don't think it has been shown at all, clearly or otherwise.  Details have been listed and have been claimed to amount to realistic character development, which in my estimation amount to no such thing.  Nor do the "but they're all so young!!" defence do anything to sway me, since (as I've pointed out already) by the standards of their society they must have been counted adults for years and have had the responsibilities to match.

 

The second sentence is just juvenile, which I suppose is why you culled it.  Since we don't agree with you we must be either bad readers or putting on an act?  Honestly...

 

 

 

EDITED to add spoiler tags

 

 

Yes, well said. The characters did not develop and remained pretty much the same for the entire series. Even right at the end when Perrin walks in after Rand's "death", Nynaeve abuses him and orders him to sit as if he was a dog!