Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[NitroS]

Just found this quote since there is lack of Shara foreshadowing i think this could be classed as foreshadowing for Demandred being in Shara.

 

'There is never fighting in Shara, Rand al'Thor. It is said the Trolloc Wars infested them"—Trollocs had
entered the Aiel Waste too; since then the Trolloc name for the Aiel Waste was the Dying Ground—"but if
there has been one battle since, no word of it has come to the tradeholds. Not much word of anything outside
the holdwalls does come inside. They say their land has always been one, not many as here, always at peace.
When you came from Rhuidean as the Car'a'earn, word of you spread, and of your title among the wetlanders
here. The Dragon Reborn. Word traveled to the tradeholds along the Great Rift and the Cliffs of Dawn."
Rhuarc's eyes were calm and steady; this did not trouble him. "Now word comes back across the Three-fold
Land. There is fighting in Shara, and Sharamen in the tradeholds ask when the Dragon Reborn will Break the
World."

 

Considering Bao the Wyld is said to be the destroyer of the dragon that explains why they ask when the dragon will break the world, it is also to note that this was mentioned when talking about confronting Sammael which could be a subtle indication that its a major forsaken at work there.

 

Yes it is all part of AMoL. It was written with one book in mind and then split mid way through the process.

As I said above all the forsaken have commuted similar atrocities. There is nothing there that sets Dem apart or would show he was more crazy than the others. Lanfear tortured people in their sleep because she enjoyed it and Mesaana acted out jealousy in going after institutions of research because they said she was unfit:

 

[LoC: Prologue, The First Message, 56]

Her road to the Great Lord began when she was denied a place in the Collam Daan all those years ago. Unsuited for research, they had told her, but she could still teach. Well, she had taught, until she found how to teach them all!

Do we know what parts of the TGS prologue was written by Jordan. I know the idea of the apple tree thing was dictated but written by sanderson. Just wondering do you still support that Demandreds quote in WH about Generals dont fight they lead or whatever when he is trying to solo vs circles unaided and assault rands defense formation by himself is the same context as sitting behind an army of pawns ready to absorbed blows in a full circle of 72 with the most powerful saarngreal available raining destruction from hundreds of metres away?

 

You mention that pre aMOL there is no hint of Demandreds character being uncalculated and so angry with hate to be the one to kill Lews Therin. Quote from Demandred WH "Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing
al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not." This says he wants to be the one to do it not he doesnt care who kills him. Hoping fervently isnt oh maybe graendel will come him i dont care it means he wants him dead by his own hands. Then TGS quote whether you like it or not is pre aMOL says he wants Lews Therin to himself which is 2 books before the final nearly 2000 pages of the series before the final book. Then we have a random Aes Sedai's accounts that only Demandred had more anger then Messanna from the Choson. We also have as dir ehlef said the accounts of killing 2 whole countries and fed to trollocs just out of spite for Lews Therin. Yep sounds rational, collected and like a safe man that wouldnt want to be the one to kill Lews Therin himself. Then his own accounts in aMOL even say how shara and the female leader of the Ayyad has changed him as well as Moghedian thinking the same thing. Not to mention his use of the true power that will change a man as we can see with Moridin compared to IShamael in the prologue.

 

As is stated by harriet and brandon if you got given a backstory of him before his reveal in aMOL it would have been distracting and ruined his moment and the book. Since we never get flashback scenes the only way it can be explained is an outrigger, or in river of souls in which we get.

 

Mr
Ares, in my opinion you wanted Dem to be in Murandy, and now rubbish
Shara because Dem wasn't in Murandy.  Shara was MUCH better than Murandy
would have been, especially given all the build-up that suggested Dem
had a huge army.

 

Pretty much this. I dont get besides the red herring how Murandy would make sense when brandon said the biggest player would be Demandred in the last battle

 

[Suttree]

@Nitros

 

He ordered others to have Rand killed and even then the quote you provide does not in anyway fit what we got in AMoL. Please these apologetics are stretching past any rational point now. No one questions that his character was changed in AMoL under Sanderson. One throwaway sentence does not constitute a character arc of change. I get it, you don't seem to mind how blunt some of the plotwork is or the many mistakes. That is fine and all to the good, but stop pretending like they aren't there.

 

As for Shara we know there was fighting. It started after Graendal kidnapped the Sh'boan and Sh'botay, ended the "7 year cycle" and threw the country into chaos. That is what the fighting was attributed to. There is nothing at all to connect Demandred to it. You have falsely claimed in the past that Murandy was "too obvious" and that Shara was well foreshadowed so please by all means show us how.

[Vambram]

I don't believe that Demandred's character was changed greatly in AMOL under Brandon Sanderson.

 

Suttree, please do not act like  that yours and a few others are the be all and end all of acceptable opinions here.

 

 

The introduction of the Sharans into AMOL with Demandred was meant to be a surprise, but to be honest, I would have been more surprised if a great general like Demandred was building a large army out of the tiny country of Murandy. AMOL would not have been nearly as great to read if Demandred's army was the Murandians, in my opinion. Also, Demandred trying to make the Last Battle personal with The Dragon was, to me, right on the money with a forsaken who always came in second place on everything whenever he was compared to Lews Therin.

As I said, for me, I do not believe that Demandred's arc or character was changed greatly for AMOL by Sanderson.

[Suttree]

I don't believe that Demandred's character was changed greatly in AMOL under Brandon Sanderson.

 

Suttree, please do not act like that yours and a few others are the be all and end all of acceptable opinions here.

It's not myself and a few others on this topic of Demandred. Go back and read through the thread. I will stand corrected if you can find many others besides yourself and Nitros that don't think he was changed.

 

Also why on earth would you possibly think that we have the only "acceptable opinions"? What an odd thing to say, you have been here long enough to know that DM has always been about debating and being open to different opinions. Unfortunately in relation to AMoL it seems as if you refuse to acknowledge even simple facts such as what is objective/subjective in technical terms when judging the writing. I'm perfectly willing to change my opinion if a well thought argument is presented. If you don't feel the character changed, give examples as we have done to highlight the difference. Don't just repeat your opinion, dive into the books and pull quotes to showcase all the times he acted out as the b-movie/comic book villain, ranting and raving over and over etc. in the past. It would be an interesting theory and I look forward to seeing you attempt to connect the dots.

 

As Ares told you in the quality thread:

Vambram, on 15 Feb 2013 - 19:50, said:Those who believe that TGS, TOM, and AMOL are NOT good books will always continue to do so. Meanwhile, those who believe that the last 3 books are INDEED very good book will also continue to do so. Ares:

 

Well, good arguments are, at least in theory, capable of swaying a person from one side to the other. So if it is the case that someone cannot be swayed from one side to the other, it is because they are either deaf to reason, or the other side has no reasoned arguments to offer.

You're quote makes it clear that you will not listen to reason no matter the argument presented to you. This has shown to be true through topic after topic in relation to AMoL. It has been made abundantly clear that you won't take off the fan shades and are perfectly willing to just ignore every point made. Really can't take much of what you say seriously at this point as it is so one sided.

[Cybertrolloc]

It's time to call pot/kettle. You're going to have to actually make that argument now Suttree.

[Suttree]

 

It's time to call pot/kettle. You're going to have to actually make that argument now Suttree.

What are you on about? Read the thread. Multiple examples have been given both here and in quality by a number of us highlighting our side of the change. Vam...not so much.

 

On a wider level I am constantly pulling quotes to support opinion/drive the discussion/answer questions. It isn't asking too much for others to do the same.

[NitroS]

@Nitros

 

He ordered others to have Rand killed and even then the quote you provide does not in anyway fit what we got in AMoL. Please these apologetics are stretching past any rational point now. No one questions that his character was changed in AMoL under Sanderson. One throwaway sentence does not constitute a character arc of change. I get it, you don't seem to mind how blunt some of the plotwork is or the many mistakes. That is fine and all to the good, but stop pretending like they aren't there.

 

As for Shara we know there was fighting. It started after Graendal kidnapped the Sh'boan and Sh'botay, ended the "7 year cycle" and threw the country into chaos. That is what the fighting was attributed to. There is nothing at all to connect Demandred to it. You have falsely claimed in the past that Murandy was "too obvious" and that Shara was well foreshadowed so please by all means show us how.

When did i say it was well foreshadowed? please quote my post as i would like to see it. I said it was obvious and it was how come so many people in the demandred listed shara as where Demandred was? because it was the only place left for him to be and made sense with all his talk of having a massive army etc. Where Murandy has not. Stop taking every post as a personal vendetta against yourself. You seem to hate brandon sanderson and pop up in every thread attacking the last 3 books. People supply arguments against what you say and provide quotes that directly shut down your claims and then you just act like people need to stop making exscuses. Are you disagreeing that murandy wasnt too obvious?

 

I still think after reading aMOL and i know about graendel kidnapping the figurehead leaders, that it was a hint that Demandred was in Shara and Jordan and as you should know is extremely subtle with his hints tryd to cover up that demandred was there by using the greandal as taking the leaders as a distraction to what really is happening. Which we now know is true. Do you think that the coming of the wyld or Graendel kidnapping 2 figurehead leaders would have spun the country into chaos? Do you think the sharans would have begun  preaching and asking when the dragon is coming because there prohpecised leader bao the wyld the one to kill the dragon came or because graendel had taken the leaders and they think the dragon done it?

 

Nobody is saying the character didnt change in aMOL thats because its the first time we have seen the character in ages and got any sort of plot out of him. Your saying that the character change doesnt make sense at all, then multiple people provide direct quotes about demandred form his past, such as TGS prologue, His backstory where he murdered 2 countries and fed them to trollocs just out of spite to Lews Therin, multiple other forsaken commenting on him and even him stating directly that he has changed due to shara and the fact that he states directly that he wishes to be the one to kill lews therin in WH. Then you just say stop using "apologetics". If you dont understand why demandred wanted to fight lews therin and why he would try to get his attention by going after elayne the one he loves and trying to entice him then its pointless and before you pull out your recycled statement of why did demandred think lews therin was at the battlefield here it is.

 

 

- You hear that Lews Therin had been fighting on all 3 battle fronts previously.

- You see a General which is matching you neck for neck

- You see a assassin come at you with a weave only known to those of

the age of Legends, given that Lews Therin is the only one working for

the light you assume he is there.

- You see a swordsman matching you

- Their is no way for Demandred to know Rand is at Shayoul Ghoul with

time dialation and no prior warning due to him having the knife

terangreal blocking him from being sensed by the DO.

- His hatred for Rand i wouldnt care about the DO winning or losing

if the guy that took my one true love, mocked me when he beat me at

everything i did and achieved more then me and lived in his shadow my

whole life.

 

If you have a problem with me pm me you quote me and attack my disccussion in every thread i participate on this board. If you disagree with them state your discussion against it, dont just say stop making exscuses and tell me to stop posting or ignore my posts as i do with so many of yours. Your more arguing then discussing.

 

 

 

It's time to call pot/kettle. You're going to have to actually make that argument now Suttree.

What

are you on about? Read the thread. Multiple examples have been given

both here and in quality by a number of us highlighting our side of the

change. Vam...not so much.

 

On a wider level I am constantly

pulling quotes to support opinion/drive the discussion/answer questions.

It isn't asking too much for others to do the same.

 

What quotes have you supplied? I havent even seen you state your opinnion on Shara, is that why your so against it because you were set in the murandy way? Why doesnt Demandreds death not make sense to you and how would you have liked him to die? The most angry of the forsaken with the most hatred of all living yells and trys to entice lews therin to fight him doesnt make sense to you after what we know of his past why? we know his acts in the age of legends why is it suprising that what he does at FOM? you think hes willing to  kill a country of people over lews therin but not yell on a field to fight him whether it makes him sound stupid or not.

 

edit: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/55602-where-is-demandreds-army-coming-from/?mode=show

 

This was a pre aMOL thread on where is Demandred and the place that got the most votes is Shara over Murandy (in which you voted for makes sense now), which means alot of people thought murandy too obvious

[jjp]

If River of Souls is so crucial to make sense of Scott Bao the Wild then it shouldn't have been excised in its entirety.

 

I may read it if I can get a free copy somewhere, but the WoT story for better or worse has been told already.

[amolcomments]

If River of Souls is so crucial to make sense of Scott Bao the Wild then it shouldn't have been excised in its entirety.

 

I may read it if I can get a free copy somewhere, but the WoT story for better or worse has been told already.

 

Agreed. If there is vital plot information in ROS then it is a colossal failure on the part of all parties involved not to include it in amol. If there isn't and it is just for colour, then I am left to conclude there is no reason for Demandred to act like a stupid, raving idiot.

[Mr Ares]

Just found this quote since there is lack of Shara foreshadowing i think this could be classed as foreshadowing for Demandred being in Shara.

 

'There is never fighting in Shara, Rand al'Thor. It is said the Trolloc Wars infested them"—Trollocs had

entered the Aiel Waste too; since then the Trolloc name for the Aiel Waste was the Dying Ground—"but if

there has been one battle since, no word of it has come to the tradeholds. Not much word of anything outside

the holdwalls does come inside. They say their land has always been one, not many as here, always at peace.

When you came from Rhuidean as the Car'a'earn, word of you spread, and of your title among the wetlanders

here. The Dragon Reborn. Word traveled to the tradeholds along the Great Rift and the Cliffs of Dawn."

Rhuarc's eyes were calm and steady; this did not trouble him. "Now word comes back across the Three-fold

Land. There is fighting in Shara, and Sharamen in the tradeholds ask when the Dragon Reborn will Break the

World."

 

Considering Bao the Wyld is said to be the destroyer of the dragon that explains why they ask when the dragon will break the world, it is also to note that this was mentioned when talking about confronting Sammael which could be a subtle indication that its a major forsaken at work there.

Many countries had chaos, many people worried about the Dragon breaking the world again - it's in the Prophecies of the Dragon. The rumours we get from Shara are no different from what we get from all those other countries - countries that didn't have Demandred in them (some didn't even have a Chosen at all). Granted, the chaos tends to need something by way of a catalyst, but Graendal's actions already fit the bill. So really there's nothing here that indicates Demandred, or any Chosen is active in Shara, even in retrospect. Even with the knowledge that Demandred was in Shara, this could still be interpreted without the need for him to be there. So no, it doesn't foreshadow Demandred being in Shara.

You mention that pre aMOL there is no hint of Demandreds character being uncalculated and so angry with hate to be the one to kill Lews Therin. Quote from Demandred WH "Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing

al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not." This says he wants to be the one to do it not he doesnt care who kills him. Hoping fervently isnt oh maybe graendel will come him i dont care it means he wants him dead by his own hands. Then TGS quote whether you like it or not is pre aMOL says he wants Lews Therin to himself which is 2 books before the final nearly 2000 pages of the series before the final book. Then we have a random Aes Sedai's accounts that only Demandred had more anger then Messanna from the Choson. We also have as dir ehlef said the accounts of killing 2 whole countries and fed to trollocs just out of spite for Lews Therin. Yep sounds rational, collected and like a safe man that wouldnt want to be the one to kill Lews Therin himself. Then his own accounts in aMOL even say how shara and the female leader of the Ayyad has changed him as well as Moghedian thinking the same thing. Not to mention his use of the true power that will change a man as we can see with Moridin compared to IShamael in the prologue.

There is still a change in the degree of his obsession - in WH he sends assassins to kill Rand, but expresses a preference for doing the job himself when the opportunity arises. Under Brandon, he loses that pragmatic edge and willingness to allow others to do the job on his behalf. Were that change prompted by something, it would be fine, but we have no cause for the change. Demandred being really angry? Not relevant. He was angry but still was willing to let others do the job. Two whole countries? No, he never did that. Try reading, it really helps. And it still isn't relevant to the change in his character, and didn't have anything to do with LTT. Moggy thinking Demandred has changed? Doesn't help your case, as saying that a change has occurred doesn't amount to an explanation for how someone has changed, nor does it explain why they have changed. Without that, the acknowledgement amounts to a hollow justification, the author lampshading the change without truly explaining it. And Demandred himself? Yes, he has managed to build relationships with people, and seems to care about Shara, and is even tempted to put his desire for vengeance behind him but chooses not to. None of which explains his change in position re killing Rand. You keep bringing up irrelevant points and not addressing the issue. At no point do we get an explanation for the change in Demandred's character, only an acknowledgement. If you think differently, provide a quote.

As is stated by harriet and brandon if you got given a backstory of him before his reveal in aMOL it would have been distracting and ruined his moment and the book. Since we never get flashback scenes the only way it can be explained is an outrigger, or in river of souls in which we get.

WoT has often given flashbacks in the past, and we get backstory provided in ways other than flashback in the series to boot. If Demandred's characterisation needs that back story to make sense, then giving him that is more important than the big surprise moment. Demandred getting his Big Damn Villain moment isn't crucial to the plot, and it would still work if we had some scenes of his backstory beforehand. So we don't get the thing we need, in order to make room for the thing we didn't. That's not a good way to write a book.

 

Mr Ares, in my opinion you wanted Dem to be in Murandy, and now rubbish

Shara because Dem wasn't in Murandy.  Shara was MUCH better than Murandy

would have been, especially given all the build-up that suggested Dem

had a huge army.

 

Pretty much this. I dont get besides the red herring how Murandy would make sense when brandon said the biggest player would be Demandred in the last battle

Demandred would have been the biggest player in the Last Battle even if he had spent the last two years herding sheep, and showed up to TG with a huge army of Darksheep (it's a big flock in which they're all the black sheep). There are only a few Chosen left, Demandred is the best general - who else could lead the Shadow's armies? It had to be him, so his prominence was assured even without Shara. Him being in Murandy would not count against that in the least.

 

I don't believe that Demandred's character was changed greatly in AMOL under Brandon Sanderson.

 

Suttree, please do not act like  that yours and a few others are the be all and end all of acceptable opinions here.

They're not the limit of accepted opinions, just the limit of well thought out opinions backed by evidence from the books.

The introduction of the Sharans into AMOL with Demandred was meant to be a surprise, but to be honest, I would have been more surprised if a great general like Demandred was building a large army out of the tiny country of Murandy.

Yeah, it would be so out of character for a great general and one of the Chosen to take on a country like Murandy compared to the vast military resources offered by Tear and Illian. Frankly, I don't get this obsession with the size of Demandred's army. Are we meant to be analysing his character through a Freudian lense? If so, I would like to point out that Sammael's lack of  height didn't lead him to get a similar "making up for something" army, so he's clearly hung like a horse, and Sakarnen, being a sceptre, is clearly intended as a penis substitute (and also one that has finally outdone LTT). Actually, this is starting to make rather too much sense, so I'm going to leave it here before this post becomes a deconstruction of phallic symbolism in the Wheel of Time.

 

 

@Nitros

 

He ordered others to have Rand killed and even then the quote you provide does not in anyway fit what we got in AMoL. Please these apologetics are stretching past any rational point now. No one questions that his character was changed in AMoL under Sanderson. One throwaway sentence does not constitute a character arc of change. I get it, you don't seem to mind how blunt some of the plotwork is or the many mistakes. That is fine and all to the good, but stop pretending like they aren't there.

 

As for Shara we know there was fighting. It started after Graendal kidnapped the Sh'boan and Sh'botay, ended the "7 year cycle" and threw the country into chaos. That is what the fighting was attributed to. There is nothing at all to connect Demandred to it. You have falsely claimed in the past that Murandy was "too obvious" and that Shara was well foreshadowed so please by all means show us how.

When did i say it was well foreshadowed? please quote my post as i would like to see it. I said it was obvious and it was how come so many people in the demandred listed shara as where Demandred was? because it was the only place left for him to be and made sense with all his talk of having a massive army etc. Where Murandy has not. Stop taking every post as a personal vendetta against yourself. You seem to hate brandon sanderson and pop up in every thread attacking the last 3 books. People supply arguments against what you say and provide quotes that directly shut down your claims and then you just act like people need to stop making exscuses. Are you disagreeing that murandy wasnt too obvious?

In what way was Murandy too obvious? There's nothing screamingly obvious about it, it's just a matter of eliminating possibilities, and you are left with those with no backing, and Murandy which has a little. Shara was problematic for other reasons as well, such as the fact they hadn't played a role in the narrative to this point, so a "Sharan Instant Army" in the last book would be even more hard to swallow than the Aiel equivalent was earlier in the series, and that had two books devoted to Rand getting it and set up in the three prior books. Also, you have yet to provide this talk of Demandred having a massive *ahem* army. Was it in the book? Did Brandon say it? Come on, I've asked for quotes and you have yet to provide. People listed Shara? Well, it couldn't be ruled out, but what support did it have? In terms of evidence, none. It wasn't obvious he was in Shara, but if you look at the options that was one of them and people evidently thought it was cool. There were other places for him to have been, and nothing ruled out Murandy. What quotes and evidence disprove Suttree's points? Not many, and they tend to be more side issues than the central thrust of his arguments anyway. You've not done even that much against my arguments.

I still think after reading aMOL and i know about graendel kidnapping the figurehead leaders, that it was a hint that Demandred was in Shara and Jordan and as you should know is extremely subtle with his hints tryd to cover up that demandred was there by using the greandal as taking the leaders as a distraction to what really is happening. Which we now know is true. Do you think that the coming of the wyld or Graendel kidnapping 2 figurehead leaders would have spun the country into chaos? Do you think the sharans would have begun  preaching and asking when the dragon is coming because there prohpecised leader bao the wyld the one to kill the dragon came or because graendel had taken the leaders and they think the dragon done it?

Graendal kidnapping the leaders was a hint to Demandred being in Shara? Right. Forgive me if I am not convinced. It sounds about as plausible as Rand having three girlfriends being a clue to Demandred's whereabouts. Frankly, I think that kidnapping two leaders on the eve of TG is enough to spin a country into chaos. They needn't think Rand had anything to do with the kidnapping for that to be true.

Nobody is saying the character didnt change in aMOL thats because its the first time we have seen the character in ages and got any sort of plot out of him. Your saying that the character change doesnt make sense at all, then multiple people provide direct quotes about demandred form his past, such as TGS prologue, His backstory where he murdered 2 countries and fed them to trollocs just out of spite to Lews Therin, multiple other forsaken commenting on him and even him stating directly that he has changed due to shara and the fact that he states directly that he wishes to be the one to kill lews therin in WH.

Multiple people provide quotes which don't give a reason for Demandred's change, only an acknowledgement that he has undergone one. And he never fed two countries to the Trollocs to spite LTT.

Then you just say stop using "apologetics". If you dont understand why demandred wanted to fight lews therin and why he would try to get his attention by going after elayne the one he loves and trying to entice him then its pointless and before you pull out your recycled statement of why did demandred think lews therin was at the battlefield here it is.

 

- You hear that Lews Therin had been fighting on all 3 battle fronts previously.

- You see a General which is matching you neck for neck

- You see a assassin come at you with a weave only known to those of

the age of Legends, given that Lews Therin is the only one working for

the light you assume he is there.

- You see a swordsman matching you

- Their is no way for Demandred to know Rand is at Shayoul Ghoul with

time dialation and no prior warning due to him having the knife

terangreal blocking him from being sensed by the DO.

- His hatred for Rand i wouldnt care about the DO winning or losing

if the guy that took my one true love, mocked me when he beat me at

everything i did and achieved more then me and lived in his shadow my

whole life.

A general matching him neck for neck - no link to LTT beyond the contrived. An assassin with an AoL weave? Well, people can rediscover weaves (Traveling being the most prominent example), and Rand can teach weaves to others (Deathgates, Arrows of Fire, etc.), and ter'angreal can carry out the functions of weaves without the need for a channeler to be present. Demandred grasping at straws. A Swrodsman matching him is, again, not something that needs to be linked to LTT - plenty of people are good with a sword. So him not knowing about the time dilation and him knowing about Rand's previous appearances make an initial assumption about Rand being there or being likely to show up not unreasonable, but they become increasingly absurd - evidence mounts hat Rand is not there, not that he is, and the points that Demandred think indicate he is present don't really indicate that at all. So Demandred looks stupid. You're not helping your case.

If you have a problem with me pm me you quote me and attack my disccussion in every thread i participate on this board. If you disagree with them state your discussion against it, dont just say stop making exscuses and tell me to stop posting or ignore my posts as i do with so many of yours. Your more arguing then discussing.

 

 

 

It's time to call pot/kettle. You're going to have to actually make that argument now Suttree.

What

are you on about? Read the thread. Multiple examples have been given

both here and in quality by a number of us highlighting our side of the

change. Vam...not so much.

 

On a wider level I am constantly

pulling quotes to support opinion/drive the discussion/answer questions.

It isn't asking too much for others to do the same.

 

What quotes have you supplied? I havent even seen you state your opinnion on Shara, is that why your so against it because you were set in the murandy way? Why doesnt Demandreds death not make sense to you and how would you have liked him to die? The most angry of the forsaken with the most hatred of all living yells and trys to entice lews therin to fight him doesnt make sense to you after what we know of his past why? we know his acts in the age of legends why is it suprising that what he does at FOM? you think hes willing to  kill a country of people over lews therin but not yell on a field to fight him whether it makes him sound stupid or not.

 

edit: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/55602-where-is-demandreds-army-coming-from/?mode=show

 

This was a pre aMOL thread on where is Demandred and the place that got the most votes is Shara over Murandy (in which you voted for makes sense now), which means alot of people thought murandy too obvious

How does it mean Murandy is too obvious? You're drawing unwarranted conclusions. Also, "still other" got nearly as many votes as Shara. Quite a few other options were presented. What support is there for Demandred being in Shara? As opposed to one of these other places, many of which also satisfy the "big army" requirement you've made up? As for asking Suttree what quotes he has supplied, that's just silly - if anything, Suttree is too willing to provide quotes. I am not as inclined to handling people with kid gloves as he is. How about you provide quotes to support any of your assertions? You flatly make things up and frequently misrepresent what is written in the thread, and neither apologise nor even acknowledge it when it is pointed out to you. He killed two cities because he felt they had slighted him before the War - cities, not countries, and it had nothing to do with LTT. That is something you made up. The initial quote, from dir ehlef:  "...I don't believe that someone who kills 2 cities in the war of power [ that would be millions of innocents ] and feeds them all to trollocs just because of slighted honor...". You then interpret that as countries, and having something to do with LTT. Again, you persist in not reading what other people are posting in the thread. As for yelling, if the fighting goes on for days, weeks, maybe even months then it gets progressively more silly to keep shouting and trying to draw LTT out.

[UncleButcher1980]

Demandred would have been the biggest player in the Last Battle even if he had spent the last two years herding sheep, and showed up to TG with a huge army of Darksheep (it's a big flock in which they're all the blacksheep)

 

Oh man, how good would that have been. A huge opportunity missed by Team Jordan.

[Suttree]

Whoa mate. Take a deep breath here. There seems to be a fundamental comprehension issue. Is everything ok? Just because certain actions of yours get called out doesn't mean you need to fly off the handle. All right more calm? Let's try and take this from the start.

 

 

When did i say it was well foreshadowed? please quote my post as i would like to see it. I said it was obvious and it was how come so many people in the demandred listed shara as where Demandred was? because it was the only place left for him to be and made sense with all his talk of having a massive army etc. Where Murandy has not.

What you said was Murandy was "too obvious" I must have assumed that meant you thought Shara was set up well, you see that is what RJ does in his writing for the most part. He is masterful with use of foreshadowing and Murandy was subtly set up to fit that pattern. Shara on the other hand had no foreshadowing indicating Demandred. Not an ounce of it. Well "that's the only place left" doesn't really cut it. You could just of easily said Land of the Mad Men. As an aside, still waiting for you to show us how Murandy was "too obvious".

 

 

Stop taking every post as a personal vendetta against yourself. You seem to hate brandon sanderson and pop up in every thread attacking the last 3 books.

Yes clearly.

 

 

let me take this post to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was a near impossible task.

 

 

My absolute favorite scene was Lioal's charge. Brandon did an incredible job capturing that moment. The moment in which he took the song and turned it into pure fury, we finally got to see the the result of that old saying "To anger the Ogier is to bring mountains down on your head". Just beautifully written and it was one of those goosebump moments(like "Cup of Sleep" or Nyn gathering the Malkieri) that I wasn't sure we would see again post KoD.

 

 

I would like to once again say thank you to Brandon for stepping up to the plate and taking a swing. He gave us the ending and for that we should all be grateful.

No idea what you are on about with the personnel vendetta but please stop making things up. It has been said by various people a number of times but literary critique ≠ hate. You do the author a far greater disservice by ignoring the faults and inventing excuses for every topic. Essentially you just took me accusing you of making excuses in every thread and did the grade school response equivalent of "I know you are but what am I". The difference being your claim of me "hating" Brandon and "attacking" AMoL in every thread is false. You can count one hand the the number of people here who have been unfair to Brandon.

 

 

People supply arguments against what you say and provide quotes that directly shut down your claims and then you just act like people need to stop making exscuses.

On the contrary for some reasons there seems to be a pattern of you ignoring responses(which is rather odd because you accuse me of that even though I have already addressed the things you bring up. You did the same with Mr Ares earlier in thread to point where he called you out on it.)

 

 

I still think after reading aMOL and i know about graendel kidnapping the figurehead leaders, that it was a hint that Demandred was in Shara and Jordan and as you should know is extremely subtle with his hints tryd to cover up that demandred was there by using the greandal as taking the leaders as a distraction to what really is happening.

Graendal kidnapping the leaders was actually a hint Demandred was in Shara? Lol...care to explain that one? Did you know that Semirhage killing the royal family in Seanchan was actually a hint that Rahvin has been resurrected and set up a rival BT on that continent. True story.

 

 

Nobody is saying the character didnt change in aMOL thats because its the first time we have seen the character in ages and got any sort of plot out of him. Your saying that the character change doesnt make sense at all, then multiple people provide direct quotes about demandred form his past, such as TGS prologue, His backstory where he murdered 2 countries and fed them to trollocs just out of spite to Lews Therin, multiple other forsaken commenting on him and even him stating directly that he has changed due to shara and the fact that he states directly that he wishes to be the one to kill lews therin in WH.

Again read the thread. I addressed everyone of those things. As already mentioned you can't use evidence written by Sanderson in the AMoL sequence to prove that Demandred hasn't changed in the AMoL sequence! How is that not obvious to you? Even though TGS is part of AMoL one sentence does not constitute and arc of change! See now you are just making me repeat myself, one could wish you would actually read the rebuttals the first time through. Those things acknowledge he changed in AMoL, they don't give a reason for him doing so. As for WH that is where we find out he ordered others to kill Rand, not sure how that helps your cause?

 

 

you think hes willing to kill a country of people over lews therin but not yell on a field to fight him whether it makes him sound stupid or not.

 

edit: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/55602-where-is-demandreds-army-coming-from/?mode=show

 

This was a pre aMOL thread on where is Demandred and the place that got the most votes is Shara over Murandy (in which you voted for makes sense now), which means alot of people thought murandy too obvious

1. It is a logical fallacy to assume that so many people voting for Shara = people thought Murandy was too obvious. Your conclusion doesn't follow.

 

2. If you have spent any time here around release time you would know how absurd your saying people are bitter there "theory" was wrong is. Each release time numerous theories fail spectacularly, that is half the fun. I never really had a dog in this fight. Just because I voted Murandy one day while killing time does not give me some emotional connection to it. None of the regulars here get bitter when there theories are shown to be wrong after release. They take some good natured ribbing and move on.

 

3. It is hilarious you would try to pull any sort of conclusion from that single poll. Here would you like another.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/61456-demandred/page-20?hl=%2Bdemandred+%2Bpoll&do=findComment&comment=2000124

 

What does this one mean to you? Curious to see what conclusion you draw here.

 

As for the rest Mr Ares has already covered most of it. Please stop fabricating things to support your point.

[Mats Spare Hat]

 

Demandred would have been the biggest player in the Last Battle even if he had spent the last two years herding sheep, and showed up to TG with a huge army of Darksheep (it's a big flock in which they're all the blacksheep)

 

Oh man, how good would that have been. A huge opportunity missed by Team Jordan.

 

We could refer to them, then, as the wait for it...wwaaaiiit for it....!    

 

 

Shawarmans... ... ..   

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Demandred would have been the biggest player in the Last Battle even if he had spent the last two years herding sheep, and showed up to TG with a huge army of Darksheep (it's a big flock in which they're all the blacksheep)

Oh man, how good would that have been. A huge opportunity missed by Team Jordan.

We could refer to them, then, as the wait for it...wwaaaiiit for it....!

 

 

Shawarmans... ... .. 

Haha classic.

[dir ehlef]

 

 

Demandred would have been the biggest player in the Last Battle even if he had spent the last two years herding sheep, and showed up to TG with a huge army of Darksheep (it's a big flock in which they're all the blacksheep)

 

Oh man, how good would that have been. A huge opportunity missed by Team Jordan.

 

We could refer to them, then, as the wait for it...wwaaaiiit for it....!    

 

 

Shawarmans... ... .. 

Fain has already said that trolloc tasted awful I'd guess that included Ram trolloc which is essentially a sheep. Besides, without Aginor to produce them, they'd all look like Hesalaam, who they were modeled after. Which would send Hesalaam into an insane rage, as they looked better than she did.

[Terrel88]

 

If River of Souls is so crucial to make sense of Scott Bao the Wild then it shouldn't have been excised in its entirety.

 

I may read it if I can get a free copy somewhere, but the WoT story for better or worse has been told already.

 

Agreed. If there is vital plot information in ROS then it is a colossal failure on the part of all parties involved not to include it in amol. If there isn't and it is just for colour, then I am left to conclude there is no reason for Demandred to act like a stupid, raving idiot.

+1

[Vambram]

Also why on earth would you possibly think that we have the only "acceptable opinions"? What an odd thing to say, you have been here long enough to know that DM has always been about debating and being open to different opinions. Unfortunately in relation to AMoL it seems as if you refuse to acknowledge even simple facts such as what is objective/subjective in technical terms when judging the writing. I'm perfectly willing to change my opinion if a well thought argument is presented. If you don't feel the character changed, give examples as we have done to highlight the difference. Don't just repeat your opinion, dive into the books and pull quotes to showcase all the times he acted out as the b-movie/comic book villain, ranting and raving over and over etc. in the past. It would be an interesting theory and I look forward to seeing you attempt to connect the dots.

 

It is true that DM is about debating and being open to different opinions. However, Sut, throughout this thread, and just about any other threat discussing AMOL in which I've seen you post, you come across to me as someone whose opinion is always right, and I have never seen you change your mind about anything. Yes, most of your opinions are well presented. However, what you also do is claim that certain things about Sanderson's writings which are very clearly subjective opinions you state those criticisms as simple objective facts. You come across heavy handed and think that the people like me who enjoyed the vast majority of AMOL are merely simple minded people who cannot understand why we do not believe as you do. 

 

Sut, let me ask you a question, if you do not mind.

 

Have you read and also enjoyed any of Brandon Sanderson's other books?

If you have read them and did not like his other novels, then I can more easily understand why you have been so critical of his writings in TGS, TOM, and AMOL. But once more, we are talking about one's personal opinions, likes and dislikes which once more is very clearly subjective and not objective.

All of my opinions, both good and bad about TGS, TOM, and AMOL are subjective opinions based upon what I like and dislike.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This is getting off topic, it is clear that there will be no agreement on the matters. 

 

Feel free to continue the debate, but I fear it will be pointless and go round in circles. 

 

Take the other matters to the quality discussion thread or PM. 

[Suttree]

@Vam

 

Mate, I can't believe you are making me go back and pull quotes on this. Here is how just a small part of the conversation went.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Vam, not going to let you get away with a straw man here. I said quite clearly.

 

"Vam, I'm sorry but the things I mentioned above(unpolished prose, timeline, mistakes, consistency) are objective.That is just stating the facts. "

 

That is vastly different from claiming "most critical discussions" are objective. There is no need to agree on your part. Again those are the facts.

NO, those are not facts. Sorry, but they clearly are not facts. Just because you and others believe that those are facts does NOT make them factual.

There is no question that those things are objective. I have given you examples over and over and yet you still refuse to aknowledge it. That would fall under being "deaf to reason".

 

Also I never once have said people who enjoyed AMoL are "simple minded". That is 100% you putting your own personnel spin on things. What I have said is just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean those issues are not there.

 

As for changing my mind it happens whenever some presents a well reasoned argument. Ask Barid, Mr Ares, Yoniy0, Randsc, or Mastar Ablar. Heck it even happens with newcomers like BFG. They have all got me to come around in debates on various topics due to presenting their case with proper support.

 

Lastly I have read a few of Sanderson's books including Elantris and the Mistborn series. Elantris came across as very juvenile although somewhat entertaining. Mistborn started out strong but quickly lost steam ending in what many have called a very contrived ending. Now those are subjective opinions, I haven't studied the books closely enough to really do a proper analysis. The things I mentioned above in relation to AMoL are objective however, not sure how I can explain it to you anymoe clearly than I have in the past. It feels like that old "lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" proverb.

 

Edit: Shoot Barid. Didn't see that post. Apologies. Feel free to take over to Quality...

[mike hunt's here]

If River of Souls is so crucial to make sense of Scott Bao the Wild then it shouldn't have been excised in its entirety.

 

I may read it if I can get a free copy somewhere, but the WoT story for better or worse has been told already.

Charles in Charge!!!!

[Cybertrolloc]

While I think Barid's justification for the Wyld prophecies is good, there's work that needs to be done on it. I'd need to think more on how to make it more viable.

 

I've looked back over some of the few Dem pieces we see pre-Sanderson and I find it hard to come up with much of anything for sure. Let me try other words: it's easy enough to make either a foam at mouth at LTT or not argument, it's not easy to come up with much of anything with an unprejudiced view of the material imo. Maybe taking the sum of Dem material + impressions from other characters (there's only a few of those, and they could easily be pure throw-away), but I still don't see anything convincing coming out of it.

[NitroS]

[Removed]

 

 

In ROS i dont think we will get a start date of his rule in Shara so it will be interesting to note when he actually started in shara and whether or not the quote from rhuarc about shara is at war and asking for the dragon is related to bao the wyld and their prophecies it just fits well that they ask when the dragon will break the world and that they wouldnt want the world broken so they have a prophecised champion to rise and defend them also the fact that rand is talking about killing Sammael in illian and rhuarc randomly says that when Sammael is the next thing to demandred (general, hate for lews therin, same power) (i could also just be trying to make things out to be there that arent and it is actually Graendel taking the figurehead non channeling leaders but we all know how subtle RJ can be with foreshadowing and that he wanted to keep Demandred a secret when at the time theories about messana the other hidden forsaken had been guessed).  Since its only meant to be about a chapter long and meant to be in aMOL, im assuming it would have taken place before kandor so how much backstory can we even get other then him sitting on a throne in shara ready to attack. Also interesting to see if he used compulsion on the Ayyad and his lover or that was earnt through his demonstration of the true power.

 

Does anyone understand what Taim actually meant that Sakarnen seem to drain something from Demandred and that he had become weak was that a flaw within the Saangreal like callandor had? or was he more refering to demandred becoming weak for his lust to fight lews therin? i hope we get notes on the saangreal in the encylopedia. RJ had lan fears quote about another stronger Saarngreal in i think shadow rising, that early in the series so i wonder if RJ had planned for it to be found by demandred after WH or if brandon gave it to demandred like he did with fat man angreal lews therin?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Seriously, this is the last warning, please stay on topic. 

 

This is not a debate about the credibility of a poster. Please stick to the argument that is being made, rather than attacking the person themselves. 

[NitroS]

Not sure if it was sarcasm, but I will treat it as serious. 

 

Lan has had more fighting in those years than most people. Searching for the Dragon Reborn, avoiding the Shadow's minions and such, going to the Eye of the World (when Moiraine went the first time) through the Blight. 

 

I would say that afforded Lan plenty of opportunities at battle. 

i disagree if you look at the warder camp in i think the dragon reborn you have the warders and the younglings training for hours a day with each other, same with the people in the borderlands who would have skirmishes and need to be in top shape. Since Lan left the borderlands in New spring he would have went off searching for the kids born around the time on moiraines book. They would have went through places like tear, illian, andor etc where Lan wouldnt have had any contact with dark friends or trollocs (since trollocs never left the borderlands pre teotw) so the only chance he would have had to fight dark friends would be if they ever met Black Ajah and warders. He would have had no one to train with since its just him and moiraine. She was also trying to stay hidden since the white tower was after her so she couldnt flaunt being an aes sedai or lan being a warder so they would have had to stay out of sight. So where do you think Lan would have got the practice? when we see him at the beginning of the new spring he bearly practices until the end of the book when he fights the other guy (forgot his name). During all these events warders would have been training constantly with other warders.

 

 

 

 

While

I would have liked a bit more development of the Sharan prophecies

surrounding Demandred in earlier books, I thought his arc was handled

well overall.  Demandred has always been a mysterious figure in the

series, and it makes sense to have him building his power base in Shara,

an equally mysterious nation to the rest of the world. 

 

I

thought Brandon handled the character fairly well.  He wasn't just a

giant robot shooting lasers at the army; we had plenty of POV moments

with him directing the movements of his army and considering Mat's

tactics.  I could see some strategy behind his constant calls for Lews

Therin to face him.  He stated that Lews Therin always preferred to

fight rather than lead from the rear, and he hoped that his constant

goading would lure the man out.  Demandred should know by now that Rand

has destroyed the Choden Kal, and realizes that Rand would be at a

disadvantage against him even with Callandor in hand and a full circle,

given the power of Sakarnen.  It's a sound strategy, setting aside the

fact that Demandred should have realized that Rand might have made a run

around the armies to attack Shayol Ghul directly, although we could

chalk that up to a mix of Demandred's arrogance (he assumes Rand would

lead the Light's armies himself, because that's what Demandred would do)

and his blinding hatred of Lews Therin.

 

The

problem with Demandred was that he didn't seem to be doing any general

work.  Sure we were told that he was their general and he was

considering all the movements of troops, etc.  Yet at the same time, we

saw Mat in a command outpost doing hard work the entire time.  Demandred

was running around on the battlefield shoot lasers all over the place

while screaming for Lews Therin.  How was he commanding the army while

fighting at the same time?

I seem to recall people

bringing him reports from the field, and using a falcon to do

reconnaissance as well.  We didn't see as much of it as we did with Mat,

but there was enough in the book to establish that he was directing the

battle from the Shadow's side.

 

Ithought the opposite regarding mat. He seemed to be joking around the whole time arguing and writing little notes such as the quarterstaff jokes. Then he kept wasteing time arguing about a spy and calling tuon tuon instead of empress or fortuona which just started more arguing wasteing even more time(which fits mat perfectly). Which Demandred used this time to lay waste to the battlefield. Also we know moghedian was communicating with Demandred in a way that no one could detect it accross the battelfield so maybe their is some kind of AOL weave that demandred used to communicate with the half men and sharans scattered accross the battlefield which required no need for him to leave his spot or get messangers to move off.

[Entreri]

According to Lan, people like him attract trouble and death. 

 

Now if Lan was inactive while chasing these boys for 20 odd years, he would have grown relatively fat, soft and weak. Quite the opposite has occured, he is far more dangerous and lethal post New Spring.  In book, Perrin said a mouse could starve over the difference between Lan and Rhuarc. In book 8, Aviendha said she has never seen a more dangerous man. 

 

Lan has gotten practice on the field, killing DF's, who they would have encountered in their search.  DF's are everywhere.  I doubt Moraine and Lan faced off against other Black Ajah or Warders, given they wanted to be stealthy, however this is not inconceivable...AS dissappear.

 

 

War of Power lasted 10 years, Mat's knowledge of war is very extensive, several 100 years at least.