Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Vambram]

Why do you all think that Demandred was stupid in thinking Lews Therin being at the Last battle at Merrilor.

 

Look at it from Demandreds POV. He thinks hes the greatest general, swordsman, chaneller etc and that his age is far superior to the current one.

 

- You hear that Lews Therin had been fighting on all 3 battle fronts previously.

- You see a General which is matching you neck for neck

- You see a assassin come at you with a weave only known to those of the age of Legends, given that Lews Therin is the only one working for the light you assume he is there.

- You see a swordsman matching you

- Their is no way for Demandred to know Rand is at Shayoul Ghoul with time dialation and no prior warning due to him having the knife terangreal blocking him from being sensed by the DO.

- His hatred for Rand i wouldnt care about the DO winning or losing if the guy that took my one true love, mocked me when he beat me at everything i did and achieved more then me and lived in his shadow my whole life.

 

With the above points and his arrogance it would seem logical Lews Therin was there.

 

Then we have the people complaining how Demandred dieing. I would like to hear how other people wish for demandred to be defeated. Rand is out of the question since hes fighting the DO/moridin. You explain a way for someone to overpower Demandred who is in a full circle of 72, holding the most powerful sa arngreal in existence and the most knowledge of any channeler left in the world and the most powerful channeler individually outside Rand. The only person that could come close was egwene with soras fluted wand with another circle of 72 but still would probably not have the skill or the power to win. The only logical way to win was to have demandreds arrogance in swordplay vs Lan i dont get why people complain so much about this. Demandred exceeded anything i could have hoped for and was really impressed how his character was used, i do wish that we could have just seen a encounter or conversation between lews therin and Demandred but im happy how it was outputted. I mean the majority of people including Terez was fixed on Demandred being Roedran, really? you feel let down when we get something as cool as Shara when the major theory was that he controlled murandy and his power was going to be a backdoor into the lights lands......

 

 

+1

[NitroS]

 

 I mean the majority of people including Terez was fixed on Demandred being Roedran, really? you feel let down when we get something as cool as Shara when the major theory was that he controlled murandy and his power was going to be a backdoor into the lights lands......

Yes clearly, no issues with the uneven writing, blunt plotwork or cheesy b-movie villain(that had very little resemblance to the calculating Demandred we previously saw who said there was no reason for a General to lead from the front and didn't mind if others killed Rand). People are just pissed we got something as "cool" as Shara.

While i dont want to get into another debate about brandon sandersons writing and i do disagree with alot of his implications i rather focus on the plot and main parts of Demandred that RJ obviously left, i think considering Demandred background his character would eventually lead to becoming mad with wanting revenge on Lews Therin considering the above points i mentioned, similar to the difference between say ishammael in the eotw prologue to how he turned out in later books. Although Demandred did take a direct role in the WH battle so he contradicted himself by saying he was a general even though he was taking part in the battle. My arguments are aimed at the people complaining about the Shara/how demandred died. Are you against the Lan killing Demandred plot if so how would you prefer him to have died? RJ would have left detailed notes on demandred and we dont know if his plan was for Demandred to actually develop his character and not just stay the same from his introduction, for example developing love for the sharan lady, and becoming hungry for Lews Therin.

 

Put yourself in Demandred shoes, after everthing that had happened to you would you not want to be the one to kill lews therin, would you want him to die by some random burst of fire by some dread lord. His character changing made sense to me and thats why i think the whole never smiling thing until he killed Lews therin would have been about.

[Suttree]

RJ would have left detailed notes on demandred and we dont know if his plan was for Demandred to actually develop his character and not just stay the same from his introduction, for example developing love for the sharan lady, and becoming hungry for Lews Therin.

Curious as to why you think RJ would have had detailed notes on Demandred's part of the story specifically? In fact we know Brandon had to create a huge amount of the material with no guidance(over 50% of the books he created without direction) from the notes because they were not that robust. Specifically on Demandred's character he had this to say:

 

 

 

Q:  Can you talk a little bit about the River of Souls sequence?

 

Brandon:  Yeah, I can totally talk about this. So, River of Souls is about a specific character, and in the drafting process this is not something I actually pitched to Harriet early on, but in the later meetings I got together with them and pitched something which was a deviation from things Robert Jordan had said. Harriet told me from the get-go, Look you’ve got the notes, you’ve got the outline, you’ve got to be a writer, not a transcriber. Robert Jordan would not have kept this the way it is, that’s not how we work, and in a lot of places he said I’m thinking of doing this, OR this, and you’ll have to decide which of those to do, or to do a third. And so I pitched one of these kind of audacious sequences to her; sometimes these work, sometimes they don’t. It’s the sort of thing you need to do to create fiction, that I feel is daring, and you need to take these chances. But a lot of times you don’t know if it’s going to work until the book is done, and you can look at it together. And this was taking place in a region of the Wheel of Time world that Robert Jordan said I really don’t think we’re ever going to visit. Which is the part that was deviated, by doing this sequence. And it’s not that long, only about 7,000 words, so it’s like a novelette. I sent it to Harriet, and she said “I really like this, but we’re going to cut it”. The reason being, that it broke up the flow of the novel, and it was introducing too many new elements at the beginning of the volume that was supposed to be wrapping up elements. And those who do storytelling know that can be a really dangerous thing to do.

So while this sequence didn't end up in AMoL a huge part of the Demandred we saw was shaped by it and that was Brandon's creation. Keep in mind it specifically states "do a third" and then he pitched her something "audacious" that he created. It certainly sounds like he went his own way with the character.

 

As an aside how was there a contradiction in WH? Demandred was ordered by the DO to the cleansing and was indignant about it, he then goes on to say "but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!". No such qualms in the AMoL whatsoever.

 

As for killing him personally I'm not really getting your point. He had no problem ordering others to do it and now he has a comic book villain level fixation on doing it himself. What do you think changed since WH and why all of a sudden?

[NitroS]

 

RJ would have left detailed notes on demandred and we dont know if his plan was for Demandred to actually develop his character and not just stay the same from his introduction, for example developing love for the sharan lady, and becoming hungry for Lews Therin.

Curious as to why you think RJ would have had detailed notes on Demandred's part of the story specifically? In fact we know Brandon had to create a huge amount of the material with no guidance(over 50% of the books he created without direction) from the notes because they were not that robust. Specifically on Demandred's character he had this to say:

 

> 

 

Q:  Can you talk a little bit about the River of Souls sequence?

 

Brandon:  Yeah, I can totally talk about this. So, River of Souls is about a specific character, and in the drafting process this is not something I actually pitched to Harriet early on, but in the later meetings I got together with them and pitched something which was a deviation from things Robert Jordan had said. Harriet told me from the get-go, Look you’ve got the notes, you’ve got the outline, you’ve got to be a writer, not a transcriber. Robert Jordan would not have kept this the way it is, that’s not how we work, and in a lot of places he said I’m thinking of doing this, OR this, and you’ll have to decide which of those to do, or to do a third. And so I pitched one of these kind of audacious sequences to her; sometimes these work, sometimes they don’t. It’s the sort of thing you need to do to create fiction, that I feel is daring, and you need to take these chances. But a lot of times you don’t know if it’s going to work until the book is done, and you can look at it together. And this was taking place in a region of the Wheel of Time world that Robert Jordan said I really don’t think we’re ever going to visit. Which is the part that was deviated, by doing this sequence. And it’s not that long, only about 7,000 words, so it’s like a novelette. I sent it to Harriet, and she said “I really like this, but we’re going to cut it”. The reason being, that it broke up the flow of the novel, and it was introducing too many new elements at the beginning of the volume that was supposed to be wrapping up elements. And those who do storytelling know that can be a really dangerous thing to do.

So while this sequence didn't end up in AMoL a huge part of the Demandred we saw was shaped by it and that was Brandon's creation. Keep in mind it specifically states "do a third" and then he pitched her something "audacious" that he created. It certainly sounds like he went his own way with the character.

 

As an aside how was there a contradiction in WH? Demandred was ordered by the DO to the cleansing and was indignant about it, he then goes on to say "but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!". No such qualms in the AMoL whatsoever.

 

As for killing him personally I'm not really getting your point. He had no problem ordering others to do it and now he has a comic book villain level fixation on doing it himself. What do you think changed since WH and why all of a sudden?

 

If i recall correctly the notes on how each character died would have been left for the major characters, so we can assume that RJ planned for the fight sequences for Gawyn atleast and demandred and Lan espeacially with the heavy foreshadowing of sheathing the sword. Then Demandred would have had his rule in Shara since about LOC so we can assume the only thing that BS would have changed if anything is the way Demandred wanted to kill Rand instead of anyone killing him and his lust to fight Rand. Which like i said isnt what my initial post was aimed at, My post was aimed at addressing all those people complaining about how Demandred died and that their theories were wrong and wanted Demandred to be Roedran and the lack of foreshadowing for Shara even though it was heavily foreshadowed.

 

It was brought up in the book by either moghedian or Greandal cant remember which one saying something about Demandred had changed before he wouldnt have cared who killed him now all he wanted to do it was himself, i dont understand why you have such a hard time believeing this, Demandred became obsessed with his revenge after all Lews Therin had done to him over the years, He has only been out of the bore for what 2 years ever since suffering yet another defeat to lews therin in the AOL. So just sitting in his kingdom securing his rule all he has to think about is Lews Therin and his revenge i dont see how its hard to believe that he would want to do the deed. This seems like basic obsessive psychology to me, something that comes to mind if you follow dragon ball z is vegeta and goku.

 

In regards to the General thing, i do agree it does contradict WH but could be due to his changing like ishamael changing from the prologue in EOTW he wanted Lews Therin to know he had been defeated and by who, but in the end he just wanted to win so he could be destroyed from existence. The same arguments could have been said about Moghedian she always likes to sit in the shadows she doesnt like to get her hands dirty so why was she in that tent even on Demandreds orders it doesnt fit her character. Same with Greandal she doesnt like front on confrontations such as natrims burrow yet she was full on fighting at shayoul ghoul that doesnt fit her character. Arrogance and obsessive revenge seem perfectly logical to change a person like demandred to me. This argument can go on forever and we wont know anymore until BS does a QA and even if it was his decision to take the character that way it still makes logical sense to me for his character to change like so many others do. like i said before my main aim was to find out why people are so angry on the whole Shara plot, if you look at the what demandred is upto threads alot of people said they wouldnt be happy if he was in Shara and assumed him in Murandy and then the people saying it was copout how he died so i want to see how others would have liked his character to be played out and be defeated when not even Lews therin would have been able to defeat him when he was in his circle with sakaan.

[Suttree]

Not all the character deaths were plotted out. Just look at the story behind Bela's fate ;)

 

No but seriously it could have been as simple as Dem starts at A and then is killed at B and Brandon had to fill in all the blanks. We know that happened quite a bit. I would be pretty surprised to find out the three duels were and RJ idea(edit: in fact think we have had that confirmed as Brandon. I'll look for the quote).

[NitroS]

Not all the character deaths were plotted out. Just look at the story behind Bela's fate ;)

 

No but seriously it could have been as simple as Dem starts at A and then is killed at B and Brandon had to fill in all the blanks. We know that happened quite a bit. I would be pretty surprised to find out the three duels were and RJ idea(edit: in fact think we have had that confirmed as Brandon. I'll look for the quote).

i was under the impression that Bela's one was the only one that wasnt plotted out. You would think that RJ would have planned most of the main characters by the time he wrote KOD when he had planned for the next book to be the last one but then again brandon could have went off with the gawyn thing but if their is a quote id like to see it.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

RJ would have left detailed notes on demandred and we dont know if his plan was for Demandred to actually develop his character and not just stay the same from his introduction, for example developing love for the sharan lady, and becoming hungry for Lews Therin.

Curious as to why you think RJ would have had detailed notes on Demandred's part of the story specifically? In fact we know Brandon had to create a huge amount of the material with no guidance(over 50% of the books he created without direction) from the notes because they were not that robust. Specifically on Demandred's character he had this to say:

 

> 

 

 

Q:  Can you talk a little bit about the River of Souls sequence?

 

Brandon:  Yeah, I can totally talk about this. So, River of Souls is about a specific character, and in the drafting process this is not something I actually pitched to Harriet early on, but in the later meetings I got together with them and pitched something which was a deviation from things Robert Jordan had said. Harriet told me from the get-go, Look you’ve got the notes, you’ve got the outline, you’ve got to be a writer, not a transcriber. Robert Jordan would not have kept this the way it is, that’s not how we work, and in a lot of places he said I’m thinking of doing this, OR this, and you’ll have to decide which of those to do, or to do a third. And so I pitched one of these kind of audacious sequences to her; sometimes these work, sometimes they don’t. It’s the sort of thing you need to do to create fiction, that I feel is daring, and you need to take these chances. But a lot of times you don’t know if it’s going to work until the book is done, and you can look at it together. And this was taking place in a region of the Wheel of Time world that Robert Jordan said I really don’t think we’re ever going to visit. Which is the part that was deviated, by doing this sequence. And it’s not that long, only about 7,000 words, so it’s like a novelette. I sent it to Harriet, and she said “I really like this, but we’re going to cut it”. The reason being, that it broke up the flow of the novel, and it was introducing too many new elements at the beginning of the volume that was supposed to be wrapping up elements. And those who do storytelling know that can be a really dangerous thing

to do.

So while this sequence didn't end up in AMoL a huge part of the Demandred we saw was shaped by it and that was Brandon's creation. Keep in mind it specifically states "do a third" and then he pitched her something "audacious" that he created. It certainly sounds like he went his own way with the character.

 

As an aside how was there a contradiction in WH? Demandred was ordered by the DO to the cleansing and was indignant about it, he then goes on to say "but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!". No such qualms in the AMoL whatsoever.

 

As for killing him personally I'm not really getting your point. He had no problem ordering others to do it and now he has a comic book villain level fixation on doing it himself. What do you think changed since WH and why all of a sudden?

If i recall correctly the notes on how each character died would have been left for the major characters, so we can assume that RJ planned for the fight sequences for Gawyn atleast and demandred and Lan espeacially with the heavy foreshadowing of sheathing the sword. Then Demandred would have had his rule in Shara since about LOC so we can assume the only thing that BS would have changed if anything is the way Demandred wanted to kill Rand instead of anyone killing him and his lust to fight Rand. Which like i said isnt what my initial post was aimed at, My post was aimed at addressing all those people complaining about how Demandred died and that their theories were wrong and wanted Demandred to be Roedran and the lack of foreshadowing for Shara even though it was heavily foreshadowed.

 

What foreshadowing was there for Demandred in Shara?

 

It was brought up in the book by either moghedian or Greandal cant remember which one saying something about Demandred had changed before he wouldnt have cared who killed him now all he wanted to do it was himself, i dont understand why you have such a hard time believeing this, Demandred became obsessed with his revenge after all Lews Therin had done to him over the years, He has only been out of the bore for what 2 years ever since suffering yet another defeat to lews therin in the AOL. So just sitting in his kingdom securing his rule all he has to think about is Lews Therin and his revenge i dont see how its hard to believe that he would want to do the deed. This seems like basic obsessive psychology to me, something that comes to mind if you follow dragon ball z is vegeta and goku.

Except we know that he did have other things to think about. For one thing, securing his rule was not just something to be idly considered, even by the LB he had still not got control of all the factions in Shara according to BS, and we saw in the book that he had been able to build up relationships with the people around him. The idea that he had nothing to do but brood is absurd, and doesn't fit with what we know. And BS acknowledges the change, but doesn't explain it. Even your explanation isn't actually backed up by the text. We don't see him changing, we don't see why he's changed, we don't see the journey, we see the destination. Maybe it will be covered in River of Souls, but either way it still doesn't work within the book, because there's nothing there, just an acknowledgement to say that he's different but nothing telling us how or why. And if you think there's something in the text showing us why he's different then please, share.

 

In regards to the General thing, i do agree it does contradict WH but could be due to his changing like ishamael changing from the prologue in EOTW he wanted Lews Therin to know he had been defeated and by who, but in the end he just wanted to win so he could be destroyed from existence. The same arguments could have been said about Moghedian she always likes to sit in the shadows she doesnt like to get her hands dirty so why was she in that tent even on Demandreds orders it doesnt fit her character. Same with Greandal she doesnt like front on confrontations such as natrims burrow yet she was full on fighting at shayoul ghoul that doesnt fit her character. Arrogance and obsessive revenge seem perfectly logical to change a person like demandred to me. This argument can go on forever and we wont know anymore until BS does a QA and even if it was his decision to take the character that way it still makes logical sense to me for his character to change like so many others do. like i said before my main aim was to find out why people are so angry on the whole Shara plot, if you look at the what demandred is upto threads alot of people said they wouldnt be happy if he was in Shara and assumed him in Murandy and then the people saying it was copout how he died so i want to see how others would have liked his character to be played out and be defeated when not even Lews therin would have been able to defeat him when he was in his circle with sakaan.

Moghedien in the tent isn't out of character - manipulating from behind the scenes is her MO exactly. Taking on Bao's persona at the end was out of character, but desperate times call for desperate measures - she didn't have time for her usual tricks, so she could either take charge or the Shadow would lose. Graendal, again, didn't have a lot of other options - in addition to being raped, killed, brought back, raped, demoted, made ugly and raped (itself enough to have her be a little different to what we knew of her before), she can't go elsewhere and fight from the shadows without abandoning the Shadow at the Last Battle - not a good idea for one who is "always unforgiven", unless she thinks they are going to lose (in which case, the smart option would be to jump ship and take advantage of her new anonymity). So we have characters who are given a choice of step outside their comfort zone or lose, and we have Demandred, who does not have to make that choice but who is different anyway for no reason. And Moridin has lived for decades, died and come back, and now stands on the brink of that oblivion he has waited for for so long. All of these have far greater explanation than the nothing offered for Demandred's changes (and even if they were badly done, that would not diminish or excuse the problems with Demandred's characterisation). 

 

Then we have the people complaining how Demandred dieing. I would like to hear how other people wish for demandred to be defeated. Rand is out of the question since hes fighting the DO/moridin. You explain a way for someone to overpower Demandred who is in a full circle of 72, holding the most powerful sa arngreal in existence and the most knowledge of any channeler left in the world and the most powerful channeler individually outside Rand. The only person that could come close was egwene with soras fluted wand with another circle of 72 but still would probably not have the skill or the power to win. The only logical way to win was to have demandreds arrogance in swordplay vs Lan i dont get why people complain so much about this. Demandred exceeded anything i could have hoped for and was really impressed how his character was used, i do wish that we could have just seen a encounter or conversation between lews therin and Demandred but im happy how it was outputted. I mean the majority of people including Terez was fixed on Demandred being Roedran, really? you feel let down when we get something as cool as Shara when the major theory was that he controlled murandy and his power was going to be a backdoor into the lights lands......

The problem with how Demandred died is the overly contrived nature of not one, but three individual swordsmen getting through the Shadow's forces, getting through to Demandred's apparently completely undefended command post and challenging the supreme commander of the Shadow's forces to a duel, which he then fights and is victorious in two before dying in the third. Yes, Lan is a great swordsman, but he shouldn't have even got close to Demandred. It felt like he did it because that's what the plot needed. Also, it undermined the concept of Sheathing the Sword - again, we see it used and the guy who does it walks away, exactly as Rand did in TGH. I understand the rationale for keeping Lan and Rand alive when both characters are so obviously marked for death, but his survival feels like another instance of cheap fan gratification, and it works against the book, undermining any tragedy or pathos that could be drawn from it in place of showing us, once again, that Lan is a badass. The whole thing felt like heavy handed authorial intervention rather than a naturalistic development of the story.

 

As for Demandred in Murandy V Shara, Murandy was a good theory - there were a few hints, not hitting you over the head but nice and subtle. It wasn't certain, but it was a reasonable conclusion. Shara was there. That's it, it was there, that's the theory. It's got to be there for something, all these mentions must have some purpose, and Demandred must be doing something cool, so why not Shara? Compared with Murandy, where we have Roedran, a wastrel of a king who is performing some subtle political manoeuvres to secure his rule, in exactly the sort of way that a man like that would not be expected to be doing. You see, one is a theory, never so strong as to be hitting you round the head, never so conclusive it had to be true, but a strong theory with a few decent hints nonetheless, and the other is just people thinking that it's a cool idea, but it not having any backing. So in the last book we get Sharans - with no evidence, no backing, no decent theory, no foreshadowing, we just discover that's where Demandred was, because, like fezzes and bow-ties, it's cool.

[Kahsm]

Guessing Demandred in Shara preAMOL is like guessing that aliens exist. You may very well turn out to be right, and there may be good reasons to think so. But none of it constitutes real evidence, just wishful speculation.

 

On the other hand, we did have some evidence for Murandy, and evidence usually trumps wishful speculation. I never signed up to it cause i thought it was lame, but I wouldn't trash those who did. Plus, given how much lame I saw in AMOL, I'm almost surprised he wasn't Roedran.

[Cybertrolloc]

It's ok, I trashed them enough for 5 people :)

 

Knowing Shara, there's one or two things you can read side-ways and say yah, that kinda fits (Dem specific, and they're covered early in this thread). Without knowing the answer, yah, no way you could be expected to get there, especially with the swathes of nations we've seen nothing of in ages (i.e. Tarabon).

[NitroS]

 

 

 

RJ would have left detailed notes on demandred and we dont know if his plan was for Demandred to actually develop his character and not just stay the same from his introduction, for example developing love for the sharan lady, and becoming hungry for Lews Therin.

Curious as to why you think RJ would have had detailed notes on Demandred's part of the story specifically? In fact we know Brandon had to create a huge amount of the material with no guidance(over 50% of the books he created without direction) from the notes because they were not that robust. Specifically on Demandred's character he had this to say:

  <

 

blockquote>

So while this sequence didn't end up in AMoL a huge part of the Demandred we saw was shaped by it and that was Brandon's creation. Keep in mind it specifically states "do a third" and then he pitched her something "audacious" that he created. It certainly sounds like he went his own way with the character.

 

As an aside how was there a contradiction in WH? Demandred was ordered by the DO to the cleansing and was indignant about it, he then goes on to say "but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!". No such qualms in the AMoL whatsoever.

 

As for killing him personally I'm not really getting your point. He had no problem ordering others to do it and now he has a comic book villain level fixation on doing it himself. What do you think changed since WH and why all of a sudden?

If i recall correctly the notes on how each character died would have been left for the major characters, so we can assume that RJ planned for the fight sequences for Gawyn atleast and demandred and Lan espeacially with the heavy foreshadowing of sheathing the sword. Then Demandred would have had his rule in Shara since about LOC so we can assume the only thing that BS would have changed if anything is the way Demandred wanted to kill Rand instead of anyone killing him and his lust to fight Rand. Which like i said isnt what my initial post was aimed at, My post was aimed at addressing all those people complaining about how Demandred died and that their theories were wrong and wanted Demandred to be Roedran and the lack of foreshadowing for Shara even though it was heavily foreshadowed.

 

What foreshadowing was there for Demandred in Shara?

 

Except we know that he did have other things to think about. For one thing, securing his rule was not just something to be idly considered, even by the LB he had still not got control of all the factions in Shara according to BS, and we saw in the book that he had been able to build up relationships with the people around him. The idea that he had nothing to do but brood is absurd, and doesn't fit with what we know. And BS acknowledges the change, but doesn't explain it. Even your explanation isn't actually backed up by the text. We don't see him changing, we don't see why he's changed, we don't see the journey, we see the destination. Maybe it will be covered in River of Souls, but either way it still doesn't work within the book, because there's nothing there, just an acknowledgement to say that he's different but nothing telling us how or why. And if you think there's something in the text showing us why he's different then please, share.

 

Moghedien in the tent isn't out of character - manipulating from behind the scenes is her MO exactly. Taking on Bao's persona at the end was out of character, but desperate times call for desperate measures - she didn't have time for her usual tricks, so she could either take charge or the Shadow would lose. Graendal, again, didn't have a lot of other options - in addition to being raped, killed, brought back, raped, demoted, made ugly and raped (itself enough to have her be a little different to what we knew of her before), she can't go elsewhere and fight from the shadows without abandoning the Shadow at the Last Battle - not a good idea for one who is "always unforgiven", unless she thinks they are going to lose (in which case, the smart option would be to jump ship and take advantage of her new anonymity). So we have characters who are given a choice of step outside their comfort zone or lose, and we have Demandred, who does not have to make that choice but who is different anyway for no reason. And Moridin has lived for decades, died and come back, and now stands on the brink of that oblivion he has waited for for so long. All of these have far greater explanation than the nothing offered for Demandred's changes (and even if they were badly done, that would not diminish or excuse the problems with Demandred's characterisation). 

The problem with how Demandred died is the overly contrived nature of not one, but three individual swordsmen getting through the Shadow's forces, getting through to Demandred's apparently completely undefended command post and challenging the supreme commander of the Shadow's forces to a duel, which he then fights and is victorious in two before dying in the third. Yes, Lan is a great swordsman, but he shouldn't have even got close to Demandred. It felt like he did it because that's what the plot needed. Also, it undermined the concept of Sheathing the Sword - again, we see it used and the guy who does it walks away, exactly as Rand did in TGH. I understand the rationale for keeping Lan and Rand alive when both characters are so obviously marked for death, but his survival feels like another instance of cheap fan gratification, and it works against the book, undermining any tragedy or pathos that could be drawn from it in place of showing us, once again, that Lan is a badass. The whole thing felt like heavy handed authorial intervention rather than a naturalistic development of the story.

 

As for Demandred in Murandy V Shara, Murandy was a good theory - there were a few hints, not hitting you over the head but nice and subtle. It wasn't certain, but it was a reasonable conclusion. Shara was there. That's it, it was there, that's the theory. It's got to be there for something, all these mentions must have some purpose, and Demandred must be doing something cool, so why not Shara? Compared with Murandy, where we have Roedran, a wastrel of a king who is performing some subtle political manoeuvres to secure his rule, in exactly the sort of way that a man like that would not be expected to be doing. You see, one is a theory, never so strong as to be hitting you round the head, never so conclusive it had to be true, but a strong theory with a few decent hints nonetheless, and the other is just people thinking that it's a cool idea, but it not having any backing. So in the last book we get Sharans - with no evidence, no backing, no decent theory, no foreshadowing, we just discover that's where Demandred was, because, like fezzes and bow-ties, it's cool.

 

 

Not sure if its foreshadowing but its more obvious because its the only place left. Robert jordan said you could work out where he was but he had not appeared on screen, brandon said it wasnt about who he was but what he was upto, THe dark one was impressed with him judging by the spikes at shayoul ghoul being so high for him and the comment you will know my fruit in bushels and groves or whatever the comment was. Judging by who Demandred is the greatest general ever, virtually every where else but the borderlands having a forsaken, getting information on a continent as big as Shara with an abundance of breeding channelers it only makes sense for the biggest most powerful forsaken to set up camp their. Sure its not overwhelming but if you think about all the above it makes sense that he was in Shara over Murandy.

 

The reason why we didnt get to see a change in Demandreds character was because the character itself was purposly left mysterious to add impact and excitement about the outcome how would you feel if we had demandred impacting from book 4 like moghedian, i didnt even think or barely consider moghedian in the last book because i was excited to see Demandred cause so little was known if we got this whole story arc throughout the books it would not have had the impact or been as exciting to see him and is why the majority of fans consider him to be their favourite forsaken. Which is why harriet wanted the river of souls sequence cut it was distracting and made little sense to add it so late into the story. Maybe RJ could have introduced the character earlier but remember he had planned for only 1 more book how do you think Robert jordan would have handled Demandred with only 1 book worth of space to go and the last thing we know is Demandred rule is secure from RJ words.

 

I disagree with your thoughts on moghedians role in the last battle fitting her character. If you look at what one of the aes sedai tell egwene about Mesanna, she said something along the lines of while moghedian likes to live in the shadows messana likes to be in the thick of it hence using a proxy and being in amongst the Aes Sedai in the white tower. Now what would make sense would be for moghedian to put compulsion on one of the suldame and damane around the tent or, one of the death watch guards or someone else around fortuona to relay orders instead of her being in the thick of it and spinning from the shadows that way.

 

Gawyn got through using the blood knives which makes perfect sense, i dont see you complaining that 6 grey man managed to penetrate the lights greatest general and Seanchans emperor, heck even logain solod his way through the guards to get into the lights command post. Galad got let through because he called demandred out and using his im lews therins brother and arrogance of demandred was let in otherwise he would have died their was 100s of crossbowmen aimed at him. If Demandred didnt want anyone in he would have had his ayyad kill on sight but he was waiting for Lews Therin to battle him so he was letting any solo assassin in. The Murandy theory was a clever Red herring started by Robert jordan and then later executed extremely well by BS which i found very exciting and clever when i read it. Even though foreshadowing is a heavy theme in the wheel of time their is various things that dont have foreshadowing through out the books. Can you honestly say that you didnt enjoy the way Demandred entered the last battle attacking the Aes Sedai camp? it was one of my favourite scene in the series along with Rand getting shielded in LOC. Imagine if we did get foreshadowing say, in a meeting with the forsaken Demandred says you think your little ashaman will be able to compare to my channelers at the last battle that would have instantly pointed to him being in Shara and then everyone would have been expecting it. Just like if we had more foreshadowing about verin if we had verin telling a lie like in TGH throughout the series her black ajah reveal would not have been as exciting as it was sometimes mystery is more entertaining then what has been foreshadowed.

 

You cant honestly have expected alot of people to die in the last battle, through the first 13 books how many major characters have died that you cared about? ebon hopwil was probably the most upsetting death pre AMOL for me and he was a minor character at best, you know robert jordan isnt G.R.R.M. Lans and Rands deaths were too obvious and why i believed rand would die and come back i didnt think he would be fully dead.

 

That is also i think why so many of the die hard fans arent as happy with the books cause they devoted so much time to this series and they were wrong about so many theories on how robert jordan planned for viewings etc to come out. Plus with a series this long and a fandom so big things get built out of proportion so much that they will never live up to the hype, moiraines reunion, who killed asmodean, fain, Rand vs the Dark one and finally demandred these characters have been theorised for years about whats going to happen and hyped so much that no matter what happened this book was never going to live up to the hype and for me Demandred managed to outdo the hype for me with his impact in the last battle. But like i said before if not for the 3 swordsman battles how would you want Demandred to be killed in a plausible way?

[Suttree]

That is also i think why so many of the die hard fans arent as happy with the books cause they devoted so much time to this series and they were wrong about so many theories on how robert jordan planned for viewings etc to come out.

It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with uneven writing and blunt plot work. The die hard fans are more than used to being wrong and we have seen it time and again with each release time. It's not as if there ever has been a high success rate in the guesses and the reveal is part of what makes it so fun. No, this excuse rings hollow, especially considering how flawed these last three books were from a quality perspective.

[NitroS]

 

That is also i think why so many of the die hard fans arent as happy with the books cause they devoted so much time to this series and they were wrong about so many theories on how robert jordan planned for viewings etc to come out.

It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with uneven writing and blunt plot work. The die hard fans are more than used to being wrong and we have seen it time and again with each release time. It's not as if there ever has been a high success rate in the guesses and the reveal is part of what makes it so fun. No, this excuse rings hollow, especially considering how flawed these last three books were from a quality perspective.

Yes sorry my comment was probably abit to blunt, although the major complaints when the book was first released on this board were because of lack of loose ends tied up and the battle of the dark one/Rand and more so plot then bad writing. It just seems like you try to blame BS for everything in these threads. While i agree he has alot of short comings but alot of the faults are of RJ as well, since he wanted alot of loose ends left open and the dark one rand good vs evil fight would for sure have had been in the notes.

[jjp]

For sure?

 

Also, loose ends aren't a problem, but how they are written can be.

 

Wondering what will happen with Lan and Nyneave as King and Queen of Malkier is a good loose end.

 

The weird Nakomi unexplained swap thing is not.

[Suttree]

 

 

That is also i think why so many of the die hard fans arent as happy with the books cause they devoted so much time to this series and they were wrong about so many theories on how robert jordan planned for viewings etc to come out.

It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with uneven writing and blunt plot work. The die hard fans are more than used to being wrong and we have seen it time and again with each release time. It's not as if there ever has been a high success rate in the guesses and the reveal is part of what makes it so fun. No, this excuse rings hollow, especially considering how flawed these last three books were from a quality perspective.

Yes sorry my comment was probably abit to blunt, although the major complaints when the book was first released on this board were because of lack of loose ends tied up and the battle of the dark one/Rand and more so plot then bad writing. It just seems like you try to blame BS for everything in these threads. While i agree he has alot of short comings but alot of the faults are of RJ as well, since he wanted alot of loose ends left open and the dark one rand good vs evil fight would for sure have had been in the notes.

To be clear I always have openly discussed RJ's faults in the past. In relation to AMoL though I for one had no issue with the open ended nature of things. We were told long ago that was how it would be so guess I was prepared. Also I've never been one for neat endings with everything tied up in a perfect little package.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is also i think why so many of the die hard fans arent as happy with the books cause they devoted so much time to this series and they were wrong about so many theories on how robert jordan planned for viewings etc to come out.

It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with uneven writing and blunt plot work. The die hard fans are more than used to being wrong and we have seen it time and again with each release time. It's not as if there ever has been a high success rate in the guesses and the reveal is part of what makes it so fun. No, this excuse rings hollow, especially considering how flawed these last three books were from a quality perspective.

 

 

Yes sorry my comment was probably abit to blunt, although the major complaints when the book was first released on this board were because of lack of loose ends tied up and the battle of the dark one/Rand and more so plot then bad writing. It just seems like you try to blame BS for everything in these threads. While i agree he has alot of short comings but alot of the faults are of RJ as well, since he wanted alot of loose ends left open and the dark one rand good vs evil fight would for sure have had been in the notes.

 

 

To be clear I always have openly discussed RJ's faults in the past. In relation to AMoL though I for one had no issue with the open ended nature of things. We were told long ago that was how it would be so guess I was prepared. Also I've never been one for neat endings with everything tied up in a perfect little package.

 

 

Agreed. We were warned in spades that it would be that way.

[NitroS]

Just was looking through the wot wiki and came across "Demandred also believed himself the superior of the other Forsaken. He was at odds with Sammael in particular, since both men wanted to be the one to personally defeat Lews Therin." Which contradicts the whole demandred doesnt care who kills him. Does anyone know the source to the wiki quote?

 

Which also could be a leading factor into his lust for Lews Therin and his arrogance. Also to note is when the leader of the Ayyad reports to Demandred he says to her you are not to attack him directly because he is far superior to any of you which is further alluding to the fact that he only considers himself and him to mean anything.

 

Also didnt realise that pre aMOL Greandal already ruled Demandred being in the borderlands out so the only two options left were Murandy and Shara.

 

Also in LOC where he says have i not done well? to the DO i originally thought after aMOL meant he had set up and secured Shara but it would mean his recruitment of Taim and the development of the black tower so it will be interesting to find out when he first went to Shara and whether he had set up rule there when Graendal came and took the figurehead leaders.

 

Also another thing i noticed "Demandred arrives at Shayol Ghul where he meets Shaidar Haran. In the Pit of Doom, he tells the Great Lord that Rahvin is dead and that Lanfear, Asmodean and Moghedien are missing. The Great Lord confirms that Rahvin and Asmodean are dead. He asks if Demandred will use balefire and tempts him with the title Nae'blis. He then gives a list of orders. (LoC,Prologue)" which contradicts is that you Asmodean quote in aMOL

[Tharand]

Although I also found it a bit pathetic with Demandreds loud yelling after LTT/Rand, I really liked his arc overall and did not at all find him a robot as some claims. The yelling makes sense with Demandreds character and I loved how Mat tricked him into believing Rand/LTT was there fighting him (after all, he knew Rand had been spotted in the north too but could not imagine any of this age with that superior skill which adds to Mat's storyline too). That he comes about as a bit pathetic is rather poor writing and BS should perhaps have let him yell once or twice instead of trying to make Mat joke about it. His constant use of balefire was also a bit inconsistent. With a full 72 circle and a strong artifact, he could basically have wiped out most of the army in no time but that is not really BS fault - RJ set this trap already in Rand's deathgate fight agaist Semirhages trolloc hordes. Demandred not wielding balefire would also have looked silly...

 

As stated by others, Demandred comes about as a supreme chaneller with supreme power, as a supreme leader, achieving something through the Sharan army and his Bao the Wyld outfit is quite ok and finally his three duels, all of them greatly written with unexpected outcomes.

 

I would have wished for another Forsaken chapter where we could have had more info on their whereabouts but that would also have spoiled the surprise and we had enough hints regarding Demandred and the Sharans earlier on.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

 

RJ would have left detailed notes on demandred and we dont know if his plan was for Demandred to actually develop his character and not just stay the same from his introduction, for example developing love for the sharan lady, and becoming hungry for Lews Therin.

Curious as to why you think RJ would have had detailed notes on Demandred's part of the story specifically? In fact we know Brandon had to create a huge amount of the material with no guidance(over 50% of the books he created without direction) from the notes because they were not that robust. Specifically on Demandred's character he had this to say:

  <

 

blockquote>

So while this sequence didn't end up in AMoL a huge part of the Demandred we saw was shaped by it and that was Brandon's creation. Keep in mind it specifically states "do a third" and then he pitched her something "audacious" that he created. It certainly sounds like he went his own way with the character.

 

As an aside how was there a contradiction in WH? Demandred was ordered by the DO to the cleansing and was indignant about it, he then goes on to say "but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!". No such qualms in the AMoL whatsoever.

 

As for killing him personally I'm not really getting your point. He had no problem ordering others to do it and now he has a comic book villain level fixation on doing it himself. What do you think changed since WH and why all of a sudden?

If i recall correctly the notes on how each character died would have been left for the major characters, so we can assume that RJ planned for the fight sequences for Gawyn atleast and demandred and Lan espeacially with the heavy foreshadowing of sheathing the sword. Then Demandred would have had his rule in Shara since about LOC so we can assume the only thing that BS would have changed if anything is the way Demandred wanted to kill Rand instead of anyone killing him and his lust to fight Rand. Which like i said isnt what my initial post was aimed at, My post was aimed at addressing all those people complaining about how Demandred died and that their theories were wrong and wanted Demandred to be Roedran and the lack of foreshadowing for Shara even though it was heavily foreshadowed.

 

What foreshadowing was there for Demandred in Shara?

 

Except we know that he did have other things to think about. For one thing, securing his rule was not just something to be idly considered, even by the LB he had still not got control of all the factions in Shara according to BS, and we saw in the book that he had been able to build up relationships with the people around him. The idea that he had nothing to do but brood is absurd, and doesn't fit with what we know. And BS acknowledges the change, but doesn't explain it. Even your explanation isn't actually backed up by the text. We don't see him changing, we don't see why he's changed, we don't see the journey, we see the destination. Maybe it will be covered in River of Souls, but either way it still doesn't work within the book, because there's nothing there, just an acknowledgement to say that he's different but nothing telling us how or why. And if you think there's something in the text showing us why he's different then please, share.

 

Moghedien in the tent isn't out of character - manipulating from behind the scenes is her MO exactly. Taking on Bao's persona at the end was out of character, but desperate times call for desperate measures - she didn't have time for her usual tricks, so she could either take charge or the Shadow would lose. Graendal, again, didn't have a lot of other options - in addition to being raped, killed, brought back, raped, demoted, made ugly and raped (itself enough to have her be a little different to what we knew of her before), she can't go elsewhere and fight from the shadows without abandoning the Shadow at the Last Battle - not a good idea for one who is "always unforgiven", unless she thinks they are going to lose (in which case, the smart option would be to jump ship and take advantage of her new anonymity). So we have characters who are given a choice of step outside their comfort zone or lose, and we have Demandred, who does not have to make that choice but who is different anyway for no reason. And Moridin has lived for decades, died and come back, and now stands on the brink of that oblivion he has waited for for so long. All of these have far greater explanation than the nothing offered for Demandred's changes (and even if they were badly done, that would not diminish or excuse the problems with Demandred's characterisation). 

The problem with how Demandred died is the overly contrived nature of not one, but three individual swordsmen getting through the Shadow's forces, getting through to Demandred's apparently completely undefended command post and challenging the supreme commander of the Shadow's forces to a duel, which he then fights and is victorious in two before dying in the third. Yes, Lan is a great swordsman, but he shouldn't have even got close to Demandred. It felt like he did it because that's what the plot needed. Also, it undermined the concept of Sheathing the Sword - again, we see it used and the guy who does it walks away, exactly as Rand did in TGH. I understand the rationale for keeping Lan and Rand alive when both characters are so obviously marked for death, but his survival feels like another instance of cheap fan gratification, and it works against the book, undermining any tragedy or pathos that could be drawn from it in place of showing us, once again, that Lan is a badass. The whole thing felt like heavy handed authorial intervention rather than a naturalistic development of the story.

 

As for Demandred in Murandy V Shara, Murandy was a good theory - there were a few hints, not hitting you over the head but nice and subtle. It wasn't certain, but it was a reasonable conclusion. Shara was there. That's it, it was there, that's the theory. It's got to be there for something, all these mentions must have some purpose, and Demandred must be doing something cool, so why not Shara? Compared with Murandy, where we have Roedran, a wastrel of a king who is performing some subtle political manoeuvres to secure his rule, in exactly the sort of way that a man like that would not be expected to be doing. You see, one is a theory, never so strong as to be hitting you round the head, never so conclusive it had to be true, but a strong theory with a few decent hints nonetheless, and the other is just people thinking that it's a cool idea, but it not having any backing. So in the last book we get Sharans - with no evidence, no backing, no decent theory, no foreshadowing, we just discover that's where Demandred was, because, like fezzes and bow-ties, it's cool.

 

Not sure if its foreshadowing but its more obvious because its the only place left. Robert jordan said you could work out where he was but he had not appeared on screen, brandon said it wasnt about who he was but what he was upto, THe dark one was impressed with him judging by the spikes at shayoul ghoul being so high for him and the comment you will know my fruit in bushels and groves or whatever the comment was. Judging by who Demandred is the greatest general ever, virtually every where else but the borderlands having a forsaken, getting information on a continent as big as Shara with an abundance of breeding channelers it only makes sense for the biggest most powerful forsaken to set up camp their. Sure its not overwhelming but if you think about all the above it makes sense that he was in Shara over Murandy.

Actually, all of that can be used as evidence for Murandy. Plus there is other evidence for Murandy as well. The difference between the two is that Shara is a blunt weapon - lots of soldiers and channelers - while Murandy is a subtle weapon, a dagger poised to plunge into an unsuspecting heart. Murandy might not be as flashy, but it could be used to devastating effect in the right place at the right time. So either works in light of the evidence, either works in light of Demandred's character, but nothing points specifically to Shara. Shara was always just something possible, but never truly pointed towards.

The reason why we didnt get to see a change in Demandreds character was because the character itself was purposly left mysterious to add impact and excitement about the outcome how would you feel if we had demandred impacting from book 4 like moghedian, i didnt even think or barely consider moghedian in the last book because i was excited to see Demandred cause so little was known if we got this whole story arc throughout the books it would not have had the impact or been as exciting to see him and is why the majority of fans consider him to be their favourite forsaken. Which is why harriet wanted the river of souls sequence cut it was distracting and made little sense to add it so late into the story. Maybe RJ could have introduced the character earlier but remember he had planned for only 1 more book how do you think Robert jordan would have handled Demandred with only 1 book worth of space to go and the last thing we know is Demandred rule is secure from RJ words.

RJ (or BS) could have handled it better through the simple expedient of not introducing those changes to Demandred's character. If the problem is character derailment, then do away with the derailment and you do away with the problem. The mystery of Demandred neither explains nor justifies the changes in his character. I've always felt that too much mystery is a good way of killing interest - in Demandred's case, it wasn't too much, but it was close. Yes, a bit of mystery is good, but it can get in the way of substance, and it was always in danger of doing so with Demandred. A few fans voiced their lack of interest in him prior to Sanderson's books - he just didn't do anything, so some people felt they had no reason to be interested. As for River of Souls, if the information there is crucial to Demandred's character development, then we should either have it in the book, have a condensed version in the book, get the information some other way, or have Demandred's character go back to how it was - as it is, we get a guy who is actually not Demandred, and no reason why.

I disagree with your thoughts on moghedians role in the last battle fitting her character. If you look at what one of the aes sedai tell egwene about Mesanna, she said something along the lines of while moghedian likes to live in the shadows messana likes to be in the thick of it hence using a proxy and being in amongst the Aes Sedai in the white tower. Now what would make sense would be for moghedian to put compulsion on one of the suldame and damane around the tent or, one of the death watch guards or someone else around fortuona to relay orders instead of her being in the thick of it and spinning from the shadows that way.

Except you're wrong - what she did in AMoL is consistent with how she acted back in TSR, and what we know of her actions back in the AoL (where, aside from running spy networks, she also carried out operations herself - that sort of infiltration is exactly her MO). Yes, compelling people around the tent is in character - but she would be close to keep an eye on things herself, provided there was no risk to herself, and she would do so from an unobtrusive position.

Gawyn got through using the blood knives which makes perfect sense, i dont see you complaining that 6 grey man managed to penetrate the lights greatest general and Seanchans emperor, heck even logain solod his way through the guards to get into the lights command post. Galad got let through because he called demandred out and using his im lews therins brother and arrogance of demandred was let in otherwise he would have died their was 100s of crossbowmen aimed at him. If Demandred didnt want anyone in he would have had his ayyad kill on sight but he was waiting for Lews Therin to battle him so he was letting any solo assassin in. The Murandy theory was a clever Red herring started by Robert jordan and then later executed extremely well by BS which i found very exciting and clever when i read it. Even though foreshadowing is a heavy theme in the wheel of time their is various things that dont have foreshadowing through out the books. Can you honestly say that you didnt enjoy the way Demandred entered the last battle attacking the Aes Sedai camp? it was one of my favourite scene in the series along with Rand getting shielded in LOC. Imagine if we did get foreshadowing say, in a meeting with the forsaken Demandred says you think your little ashaman will be able to compare to my channelers at the last battle that would have instantly pointed to him being in Shara and then everyone would have been expecting it. Just like if we had more foreshadowing about verin if we had verin telling a lie like in TGH throughout the series her black ajah reveal would not have been as exciting as it was sometimes mystery is more entertaining then what has been foreshadowed.

What didn't RJ foreshadow? Very little - Cadsuane is a prominent example. She has no mention, nothing, before her first appearance, and she is unusual in that. Now, good scenes do not rely on surprise, because surprise only works once. Yes, the Sharan entry worked well enough, but after Merrilor Shara was really the only place left - that's the only thing the theory ever had going for it. Also, I note that you make excuses for Galad and Gawyn, but not Lan, the guy who actually killed him. If anything, it gets worse over time, with Gawny's use of the rings being plausible, Galad's getting close enough to shout out to Demandred (after the guards made a serious effort to kill him - they were not just letting anyone in) being a little harder to accept, Logain being a bit more contrived and lastly Lan, being almost absurd, what with the reliance on magic TR archery. Grey Men? Yes, they sneak through - it's their gimmick, it's what they do. That makes sense, Gawyn is acceptable, but four guys getting through the lines is just pushing it. And the Roedran is not Demandred revelation was heavy handed in its execution, leaning rather too heavily on the fourth wall in a way that is out of keeping with the series.

You cant honestly have expected alot of people to die in the last battle, through the first 13 books how many major characters have died that you cared about? ebon hopwil was probably the most upsetting death pre AMOL for me and he was a minor character at best, you know robert jordan isnt G.R.R.M. Lans and Rands deaths were too obvious and why i believed rand would die and come back i didnt think he would be fully dead.

Up until this book, there was always a reason to keep characters alive - you might need them for the Last Battle. In this book, no such restriction applied. And please, drop the uninspired GRRM comparison. Other authors are far more willing to kill characters than he is. A lot of characters did die in this, including a couple of major ones (Egwene most notably), and the series has made effective, if sparing, use of character deaths in the past - Eben, Pevin, Mangin, Verin, Ingtar, Nalesean, to name a few. I don't think we needed a greater quantity, but a few of them could have been handled better, and some of them might have been more effective if others had died instead (note the unwillingness to break up couples, for example).

That is also i think why so many of the die hard fans arent as happy with the books cause they devoted so much time to this series and they were wrong about so many theories on how robert jordan planned for viewings etc to come out. Plus with a series this long and a fandom so big things get built out of proportion so much that they will never live up to the hype, moiraines reunion, who killed asmodean, fain, Rand vs the Dark one and finally demandred these characters have been theorised for years about whats going to happen and hyped so much that no matter what happened this book was never going to live up to the hype and for me Demandred managed to outdo the hype for me with his impact in the last battle. But like i said before if not for the 3 swordsman battles how would you want Demandred to be killed in a plausible way?

Wrong again. I've been wrong about theories in the past and not minded. I was right about quite a lot of things in this last book. Asmo was something we always knew was unimportant - RJ said as much. Fain was disappointing, no matter how you slice it, and not due to fan build up. As for how to kill Demandred? Well, the problem lies with why Demandred is deciding to duel them, and the contrived way they get through the lines. Find a way to get around that, or re-write so Demandred is not as powerful.

 

Also another thing i noticed "Demandred arrives at Shayol Ghul where he meets Shaidar Haran. In the Pit of Doom, he tells the Great Lord that Rahvin is dead and that Lanfear, Asmodean and Moghedien are missing. The Great Lord confirms that Rahvin and Asmodean are dead. He asks if Demandred will use balefire and tempts him with the title Nae'blis. He then gives a list of orders. (LoC,Prologue)" which contradicts is that you Asmodean quote in aMOL

You assume that Demandred has absolute faith in Shai'tan's honesty.

 

Although I also found it a bit pathetic with Demandreds loud yelling after LTT/Rand, I really liked his arc overall and did not at all find him a robot as some claims. The yelling makes sense with Demandreds character and I loved how Mat tricked him into believing Rand/LTT was there fighting him (after all, he knew Rand had been spotted in the north too but could not imagine any of this age with that superior skill which adds to Mat's storyline too).

How does the yelling make sense with Demandred's character? Was he known for being shouty back in the AoL? This is a guy who had always wanted LTT dead, but didn't care overmuch who did it. Now he's so obsessed he spends his time demanding LTT come and face him. And Mat "tricking" him makes little sense - the AoL didn't know war until the War of the Shadow broke out. That's ten years of fighting. In other words, a significant number of generals should have racked up equivalent experience over their careers, and it is far from impossible for a normal person to be as good as Demandred after so long spent fighting. It adds nothing to Mat, it detracts from Demandred, making him look rather stupid.

[Kahsm]

Just a thought. It's entirely possible Demandred was of the greatest tacticians in the AoL. As you said he was basically book learned and short schooled on it, but everyone was. So that legend just persists through 1000 years of termoil and war. Where Demandred had a bit of an edge is that his war is more like the wars of the AoL with many channelers on each side. Still, given Mat's experience, it's probably amazing Demandred was as good as he was. Really though, he was just reacting fast enough to whatever Mat was doing and using a larger force to do it, and that was mat's plan. Keep Demandred busy in the command tent and not balefiring the Light's army to ribbons.

 

So I'm not disagreeing with your statement, "It adds nothing to Mat, it detracts from Demandred, making him look rather stupid." I'm just suggesting that's probably the way it should be. It's very unlike channeling skill, where we're told the forsaken have unbelievable knowledge of channeling and we rarely see any of it. At least we see it less than we see 3rd Agers discovering stuff 4th Agers didn't know.

[Suttree]

Demandred says no one General could be facing him in such a manner that didn't have "centuries of experience". We know Demandred himself had roughly 10 years of experience with warfare so it really doesn't make any sense.

[NitroS]

Demandred says no one General could be facing him in such a manner that didn't have "centuries of experience". We know Demandred himself had roughly 10 years of experience with warfare so it really doesn't make any sense.

True, but we get similar quotes from forsaken throughout the series such as messana where egwene replies that most of your time was spent in peace or along those lines cant remember the exact quote. Demandred would still be the only General with experience with channelers vs channelers, as the other generals only had experience in the trolloc wars, the aiel war and the random civil wars. Which to be fair defending a city against an aiel attack would probably be alot more simpler then the war of power.

 

@ Mr Ares

 

most of the arguments are point of view and oppinions on whether Demandreds character should change or not to change while you think it doesnt make sense it makes sense to me for it to change and like Moghedian said Shara had changed Demandred. Living in a different culture and surroundings for 2 years could change your perspective, thoughts etc, especially if your pointed out to be the saviour of the sharans which is what Demandred would have been if it wasnt for the Lews therin so he virtually had a dream come true in Shara so the rage towards Lews Therin would have built for taking that away in the age of legends, its all speculated this argument could go on for ever and the bottom line is he changed it was written into the books and all the wishing that his character didnt change wouldnt have changed that and i think it was more enetertaining that we had a powerful forsaken actually doing something no matter how crazy instead of others who wanted a general to sit back not channel and just direct the battle, which doesnt fit the character of a forsaken who is arrogant and believes himself to be the most powerful in the universe. The dark one would have directed him to take part in the battle.

 

Make Demandred not as powerful? i dont see how you want him to act dumb lose the strength as the 2nd most powerful channeler and not link with the 400+ channelers he brought with him and using sakarnan? The strength of channeling was already broken from the beginning early on and was always going to be a problem coming up to the last battle. by robert jordans fight scenes and battles throughout earlier books Demandred should have leveled the lights armies by himself. Elza penfel in a circle with relative weak aes Sedai and Ashaman was able to reduce a cliff by 50ft and kill the forsaken posing as dashiva. If you used that level of power as a guide Demandred with sakarnan and a circle of 72 should have been able to demolish the whole heights by himself and is why they had him using balefire instead of destructive weaves so that the last battle wasnt just about channelers and added depth. Look at Rand he killed 100k trollocs with an angreal.

 

I dont see how Murandy would have been a subtle weapon, the heaviest of the foreshadowing happened in TOM and Amol prologue for Murandy and i think it was extremely clever how it was used as a red herring, but by the end of TOM we already knew Caemlyn was taken over by the trollocs and was already the subtle weapon in the heart as you say. So what would Murandy have achieved that Caemlyn did not for the shadow?

 

The shouting thing while i think was over the top can be explained as my 8 or so reasons stated above to think Lews Therin is on the battle field and the fact that Demandred thinks the shadow is going to win the last battle this is the last chance hes going to ever have to fight Lews Therin so from a logical point of view what would the best way be to get Lews Therin to come at you? I would attack the one he loves (elayne) and increase my voice with the power and then taunt lews therin to come at me and prove yourself, which is why he started demolishing the armies as he knows loss of life effects lews therin.

[Mr Ares]

 

Demandred says no one General could be facing him in such a manner that didn't have "centuries of experience". We know Demandred himself had roughly 10 years of experience with warfare so it really doesn't make any sense.

True, but we get similar quotes from forsaken throughout the series such as messana where egwene replies that most of your time was spent in peace or along those lines cant remember the exact quote. Demandred would still be the only General with experience with channelers vs channelers, as the other generals only had experience in the trolloc wars, the aiel war and the random civil wars. Which to be fair defending a city against an aiel attack would probably be alot more simpler then the war of power.

The problem lies in how it is portrayed - Demandred has a lot of experience of warfare, and probably more experience with large armies and with channelers in war than his opposites. Him thinking that the generals of today would never have commanded forces this big, which was a rare thing even in the AoL, makes sense. Him thinking that his single decade of experience could only possibly be matched by someone who has been doing it for hundreds of years is absurd.

@ Mr Ares

 

most of the arguments are point of view and oppinions on whether Demandreds character should change or not to change while you think it doesnt make sense it makes sense to me for it to change and like Moghedian said Shara had changed Demandred. Living in a different culture and surroundings for 2 years could change your perspective, thoughts etc, especially if your pointed out to be the saviour of the sharans which is what Demandred would have been if it wasnt for the Lews therin so he virtually had a dream come true in Shara so the rage towards Lews Therin would have built for taking that away in the age of legends, its all speculated this argument could go on for ever and the bottom line is he changed it was written into the books and all the wishing that his character didnt change wouldnt have changed that and i think it was more enetertaining that we had a powerful forsaken actually doing something no matter how crazy instead of others who wanted a general to sit back not channel and just direct the battle, which doesnt fit the character of a forsaken who is arrogant and believes himself to be the most powerful in the universe. The dark one would have directed him to take part in the battle.

It is true that wishing this book had been written properly won't change the reality of what we got, but so what? If we tried applying that to everything, then we'd never be ale to debate. And the problem with Demandred isn't that he changed, it's that the change happens for no reason. Look at the name of the thread: Demandred's Arc. Unfortunately, a good chunk of his arc is missing - we have a before and and after, but we don't see how or why he got from the one to the other, so it doesn't read as character development, it reads as character derailment. Now, you can invent to your hearts content, but it isn't in the book, and it should have been. If it was in River of Souls and got cut, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. If it wasn't in their to begin with, then Harriet wasn't doing her job properly, and nor was Brandon. The out of character elements should have been picked up on and explained. They weren't.

Make Demandred not as powerful? i dont see how you want him to act dumb lose the strength as the 2nd most powerful channeler and not link with the 400+ channelers he brought with him and using sakarnan?

Actually, making him dumb is the very opposite of what I suggested. (I must mention the fact that when people think to argue with me without properly reading my posts it seldom ends well for them.) He was dumb already. When you make a character too powerful, it is difficult to kill them plausibly (or explain why they don't just solve all the problems immediately). A lot of the time this is dealt with by having them act stupidly, such as in Demandred's case. Making him not as powerful means that you don't have to make use of contrived stupidity to kill him - if he didn't have Sakarnen, if someone broke through to his command tent while his circle were busy elsewhere and he was directing the battle, if he was too busy fighting to use the OP (and he was not the second strongest channeler, by the way) it could be done. It has to be handled very carefully. If it isn't, you end up with a stupid villain who doesn't make use of the tools he has available and dies.

The strength of channeling was already broken from the beginning early on and was always going to be a problem coming up to the last battle. by robert jordans fight scenes and battles throughout earlier books Demandred should have leveled the lights armies by himself. Elza penfel in a circle with relative weak aes Sedai and Ashaman was able to reduce a cliff by 50ft and kill the forsaken posing as dashiva. If you used that level of power as a guide Demandred with sakarnan and a circle of 72 should have been able to demolish the whole heights by himself and is why they had him using balefire instead of destructive weaves so that the last battle wasnt just about channelers and added depth. Look at Rand he killed 100k trollocs with an angreal.

Elza was in a circle with Callandor. So the third most powerful male sa'angreal, an Asha'man and two AS were able to take the top off a hill. That's a hell of a detail to leave out. As for the strength of channeling, yes, it was always powerful. So what? Oh, right, it means that Demandred should have been able to use it, but instead he forgot. Balefire is a destructive weave, by the way. Just thought you might want to bear that in mind. Yes, Demandred should have been able to level the heights, and he spent a fair bit of time throwing out destructive weaves that killed thousands at a time - so why didn't he level the heights? Reducing the strength and numbers of channelers didn't add depth, it created problems. The channelers should have been occupied fighting other channelers, and thus unable to devote too much effort to slaughtering the troops. Instead, most of them decided that they would be better off staying at home during the LB. That presumably includes several thousand Ayyad as well, as well as plenty of the Shadow's other channelers. So as much time is spent slaughtering troops, but the conflict has been scaled down.

 

I dont see how Murandy would have been a subtle weapon, the heaviest of the foreshadowing happened in TOM and Amol prologue for Murandy and i think it was extremely clever how it was used as a red herring, but by the end of TOM we already knew Caemlyn was taken over by the trollocs and was already the subtle weapon in the heart as you say. So what would Murandy have achieved that Caemlyn did not for the shadow?

Murandy doesn't have the same numerical power as Shara - Shara is a very overt weapon. The point of Murandy as a weapon is that it is stealthy, subtle, a dagger next to the heart that you don't see coming, as opposed to the Sharan hammer blow you do. Again, read my posts (or just look up the definition of subtle). Taking over Caemlyn was the very opposite of a subtle weapon - it was a horde of Trollocs smashing a city. Compulsion on the Great Captains was a subtle weapon - they made mistakes that were individually minor, but which added up to a catastrophe and which few would see coming. Have Murandy do the same - the Murandians are in the wrong place, the Murandians leave a flank open, the Murandians are in the way. It's the same with Weiramon - he gives every impression of incompetence, but his failures are calculated, his stupidity a mask. Roedran himself was using the same trick, appearing stupid and dissolute, but actually competent. There was subtle foreshadowing for Murandy in books 8 and 9 - yes, it was explained, but it would have worked as well by being a Chosen taking over there. The question is not what Murandy would have achieved that Caemlyn didn't, but what it could achieve that the Compulsion of the Captains didn't? The idea is not to overwhelm your enemy with numbers, but to use Murandy to create a weak point, and throw your strength at those weakest points and break them.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Demandred says no one General could be facing him in such a manner that didn't have "centuries of experience". We know Demandred himself had roughly 10 years of experience with warfare so it really doesn't make any sense.

 

I'd argue that Demandred's 10 years of AOL last battle experience is the same as another general's 30 years in a relatively peaceful land with no channelers experience. He would have marshalled darkfriends, men, and channelers to battle far superior armies - technologically and in size - than any seen in the 3rd age. However, having experience with the less technological armies of the third age may have screwed with his knowledge.

 

As for the why didn't he just level the forces of light as he has a super sarangreal and a circle of 72 question? Well... that's a good question. I would have liked to have seen how RJ handled this for both sides. Because, basically each side has an almost unlimited supply of nukes. How do you plan a battle when the other side has tactical nukes they can set off repeatedly? I think this was an inherent flaw in the story. Using large circles to destroy should have been likened to using Balefire in its destructive force on the pattern... or something like that.

 

Edit - i meant shadowspawn, not darkfriends in the first paragraph.

[Suttree]

@canu

 

The statement is still flat out wrong. Demandred never had "centuries" of experience with warfare so not sure why he uses that as the benchmark.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

@canu

 

The statement is still flat out wrong. Demandred never had "centuries" of experience with warfare so not sure why he uses that as the benchmark.

 

It's a hyperbolic statement by a megalomaniac with a three thousand year old grudge. It's like a tough guy talking crap before a fight and saying "You could chop of my leg and I'd still kick your ass." That's the way I read it.