Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[papertiger]

That was quite the post (#263), Luckers!

 

It really makes me think more about the love interest that was sandwiched into his arc. This seemed OOC to me but now I can see that BS was merely using it to retroactively heighten his characterization of Demandred. The idea that Demandred is torn between running off with some Sharan noble lady is laughable when you think about it.

[Tha Spider]

People here are explaining Dem's own down fall.  Yes he saw Rand as LTT and not Rand, but at the same time we know Dem knows that LTT can't bare to watch friends/family die on the battle field without helping (If I had the book with me now I'd quote it and give you the page number but I don't).  By that logic alone Dem should have come to the conclusion that LTT wasn't there.  He was killing so many people, so many of friends, Egwene and Hurin etc, that Dem should have realized Rand wasn't there.  To me this made Dem look stupid.  He knew the prophecies of that land and of those people and that Rand's blood had to be split on SG.  So after so many days of killing LTT's friends/family and LTT still not showing up, why would he not at least try to figure out exactly whats going on?  Try to make a gateway to SG? Try to send someone to SG?  Just doesn't make sense to me.  He has lived 3000 years and yet he has the wisdom of a 15 year old who just wants to beat some kid up for being cooler than him and winning over the girl.  

[woomia]

Remember, a good chunk of those 3000 years were spent in a dreamless sleep.

[Sabio]

People here are explaining Dem's own down fall.  Yes he saw Rand as LTT and not Rand, but at the same time we know Dem knows that LTT can't bare to watch friends/family die on the battle field without helping (If I had the book with me now I'd quote it and give you the page number but I don't).  By that logic alone Dem should have come to the conclusion that LTT wasn't there.  He was killing so many people, so many of friends, Egwene and Hurin etc, that Dem should have realized Rand wasn't there.  To me this made Dem look stupid.  He knew the prophecies of that land and of those people and that Rand's blood had to be split on SG.  So after so many days of killing LTT's friends/family and LTT still not showing up, why would he not at least try to figure out exactly whats going on?  Try to make a gateway to SG? Try to send someone to SG?  Just doesn't make sense to me.  He has lived 3000 years and yet he has the wisdom of a 15 year old who just wants to beat some kid up for being cooler than him and winning over the girl.  

Well its not like Grendel or anyone came from SG and told him Rand was up there.  We aslo don't know what Moridins orders for Dem were.  It was quite possible Dem was told say with the armies.  You notice Mog didn't go running to SG either.  Agian LTT was arrogant and wnated the limelight.  DEM is  thinking in terms of LTT not Rand and couldn't fathom LTT not hogging the glory and leaving the armies to someone else.  It was actually Mat doing so good with the army that had Dem convinced LTT was there.  Since only LTT in his mind could be so good. Had the armies of light been doing horrible Dem would of known for sure LTT was somewhere else.

[morkhon]

Remember, a good chunk of those 3000 years were spent in a dreamless sleep.

 

Indeed. Ishamael's insanity is a lot more realistic, as he spent so much time being around, affecting the world, constantly channeling, that slowly the degradation makes sense. Dem has been awake basically since the series started. Actually, less. And then the few viewpoints we see of him he's rather cold, calculating, strategic, intelligent. And then completely loses his mind in the last battle. It makes no sense.

 

As far as those saying he couldn't discern Rand from LTT and that LTT would want all the glory of winning the battle. Come on, like there's no glory in defeating the DO? That's the important battle. Dem acted like an utterly foolish general putting himself in harm's way. Winning the battle became secondary to serving his ego. A sign of an atrocious general. You win the battle. The victors write the history anyway.

[Sabio]

 

Remember, a good chunk of those 3000 years were spent in a dreamless sleep.

 

Indeed. Ishamael's insanity is a lot more realistic, as he spent so much time being around, affecting the world, constantly channeling, that slowly the degradation makes sense. Dem has been awake basically since the series started. Actually, less. And then the few viewpoints we see of him he's rather cold, calculating, strategic, intelligent. And then completely loses his mind in the last battle. It makes no sense.

 

As far as those saying he couldn't discern Rand from LTT and that LTT would want all the glory of winning the battle. Come on, like there's no glory in defeating the DO? That's the important battle. Dem acted like an utterly foolish general putting himself in harm's way. Winning the battle became secondary to serving his ego. A sign of an atrocious general. You win the battle. The victors write the history anyway.

Blame Mat, again it was Mat doing such a good job the had Dem convinced RTT was there.

[Elan Tedronai]

Demandred travels to shayol ghul and waits there for his most hated enemy

 

Rand walks into the pit of doom clutching callandor surrounded by nynaeve and moraine

 

He suddenly stops and sees a shadowy figure at the end of the darkness.

 

'Lord of the morning i have been waiting for you. In steps demandred into the murky light clutching sarkanen as he eyes his former friend in utter disdain.

 

Unknown to the former friends, moridin watches the unfolding action with a deepening smile...

 

 

sigh

 

instead i get a forsaken of fearsome reputation bitchslapped by a warder. a freakin warder

[Vambram]

Instead, we got Demandred being confronted by Lan who was the very best of the best blademasters in all of the WOT series.

 

 

A ter`angreal protected Lan directly from weaves, and thus the supremely powerful Demandred was forced to rely upon something else besides the One Power.

 

I completely and thoroughly enjoyed that scene.

[Suttree]

Yes because Demandred hadn't already figured out the flaws with the amulet!? He knew indirect weaves worked against Lan and didn't follow up on it. It requires a huge suspension of disbelief. Not to mention how pulp fantasy cheesy the three consecutive attacks on the "level boss" were. Just lazy plot work all around.

[Vambram]

Demandred tried to follow up with indirect weaves against Lan. However, Lan was more than good enough to avoid almost all of those indirect weave attacks.

 

I concede that the plot work might have been lazy. However, the scenes were still very good, and I shouted after Lan killed Demandred.... and I cried tears of joy when Lan managed to be able to survive. His survival was key in inspiring Rand to NOT give up against the Dark One.

[Suttree]

Yes I'm aware he tried to throw rocks at him... which was exactly what he did in the other fights. It requires a suspension of disbelief in that he would certainly try to do more with indirect weaves.

[Finnssss22]

Yes I'm aware he tried to throw rocks at him... which was exactly what he did in the other fights. It requires a suspension of disbelief in that he would certainly try to do more with indirect weaves.

 

I don't think you have "suspend" belief in that case. You just need to believe that Lan is so good that Demandred has to use all of his focus on his sword play to deal with him.

[Suttree]

 

Yes I'm aware he tried to throw rocks at him... which was exactly what he did in the other fights. It requires a suspension of disbelief in that he would certainly try to do more with indirect weaves.

 

I don't think you have "suspend" belief in that case. You just need to believe that Lan is so good that Demandred has to use all of his focus on his sword play to deal with him.

Wait what? We already saw him channel during the fight.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Yes I'm aware he tried to throw rocks at him... which was exactly what he did in the other fights. It requires a suspension of disbelief in that he would certainly try to do more with indirect weaves.

 

I don't think you have "suspend" belief in that case. You just need to believe that Lan is so good that Demandred has to use all of his focus on his sword play to deal with him.

Wait what? We already saw him channel during the fight.

 

And during that time Lan was pressing him. It wasn't until Demandred seemed to devout everything into his sword play that he was able to press Lan.

I thought that was pretty explicitly relayed in the fight.

 

 

aMoL-37:

Demandred was still fresh. The Forsaken stopped talking and engrossed

himself in the duel. He also stopped using the One Power, focused only on

his swordplay. He did not grin as he took the advantage. He did not seem

like a man who grinned very often.

 

 

Previous to this, Demandred was becoming flustered trying to hold off Lan's attacks while also trying to use the One Power to throw things at Lan.

 

 

aMoL-37

As he flowed into his next sword form, Lan brought his weapon up

across his chest and stepped backward. A stone the size of a man’s head

passed directly in front of him. Lan flowed forward, arm moving into his

next form as another stone flew under his arm, tugging wind with it. Lan

raised his sword and flowed around the path of a third stone, which missed

him by a thumb’s width, rippling his clothing.

Demandred blocked Lan’s attack, but he breathed hoarsely. “Who are

you?” Demandred whispered again.

[Cirin]

I never really was all that interested in Demandred, so I didn't particularly care if he came off looking like a raging loony (which he did in some cases, in other cases not as much)... but I do agree that it seemed kind of out of place.  I felt the three duels was a bit much also.  Two, I could see.  One fails, so another follows up... but three?  Seriously do his guards do anything?  Even with the foxhead medallion, they've already established within the book that it doesn't protect against, say, a lightning bolt (which killed Mat in book 5) or the mountain getting blown up, or the air around you heated to a million degrees.  A rock?  Just throw a fireball at him, geez....

 

I would've actually preferred if Galad killed him, if they were going the sword fight route.  Since Galad had been made out to be the perfect swordsman, it would've made sense, and even if Galad died in the process, that would simply fit his mythic archetype, since the perfect knight Galahad himself died after finding the Holy Grail.  Tacking on the sword fight with Lan just seemed a bit excessive.  Don't get me wrong, I like Lan, I think he's epic... but I would have thought that whether he killed Demandred or not.  Killing a Forsaken doesn't necessarily earn Lan coolness points, since he's already maxed out through a number of other factors.

 

If they were going to do three duels, I think the third should have been against Mat.  Mat was the other commanding general, had decided from the get-go he wanted to avoid Demandred, and had previously beaten Gawyn and Galad (at the same time) in combat.  It would have nicely wrapped up the recurring theme of Mat getting dragged into fights he doesn't want to be in (because Demandred would seek Mat out, not the other way around) and add another incident wherein a farmer with a stick trumps the invincible blademaster.  Since Mat already has his foxhead medallion, it would also remove the kind of odd exchange whereby the copy he gave to Galad is somehow passed along to Lan.

 

Anyway, like I said, I don't particularly care that Lan killed him, but just felt I would have enjoyed it more had it gone my way.    As for Demandred's character, though, I do agree he came off as sort of the final boss-type villain... even if it was in this book, I would've preferred even one chapter from his point of view making some plans... at least indicating where he found Sarkanen, if nothing else...

[Entreri]

I greatly enjoyed Demandred getting bitch slapped by Lan. He is not a mere Warder, he is only the greatest warrior and blademaster EVER. 

 

With that foxhead type ter'angreal, he can become a gholam like killing machine, how wonderful.  It was also most enjoyable to see much death and destruction in AMOL. 

 

And the way Lanfear died, fantastic, as Ishamael and LTT have stated, she thinks too highly of herself and her abilities/capabilities.

[Suttree]

Finnnsss you still haven't explained in the slightest why he would have used the same basic trick over and over when he could channel instead of just dealing with it in a more efficient manner. It requires a suspension of disbelief IMO. You've worked out a way that one of the greatest channelers from the AoL couldn't come up with anything else besides throwing rocks and that's fine if it works for you. I just can't see it and yes again the "boss level" situation is lazy plotwork which is that far larger issue. All the more disappointing given the great things Brandon did with the character.

[Finnssss22]

Finnnsss you still haven't explained in the slightest why he would have used the same basic trick over and over when he could channel instead of just dealing with it in a more efficient manner. It requires a suspension of disbelief IMO. You've worked out a way that one of the greatest channelers from the AoL couldn't come up with anything else besides throwing rocks and that's fine if it works for you. I just can't see it and yes again the "boss level" situation is lazy plotwork which is that far larger issue. All the more disappointing given the great things Brandon did with the character.

 

Overconfidence. You heard him, he didn't believe anyone of this age could possibly best him and he had already dispatched 2 others by this point.

At the end of the day, it was a fault in every one of the Forsaken.

 

Honestly, if you pressed me, I would say it was more unbelievable how Moiraine took out Be'lal than how Lan took out Demandred.

Know what I'm saying.

[Entreri]

Throwing rocks worked against Galad and Gawyn and he did not think highly of blademasters in this Age. He could have defeated Galad and Gawyn in unison.

 

Demandred learned his mistake too late...although he did state that Lan is LTT. 

 

In this type of fast paced fight, very little time to think of other indirect weaves, thinking too long = death.  This is like someone with a gun attacking you and you are thinking where to shoot this person = your death. 

 

The fight lasted at most a minute, Lan had to end it ASAP,  due to being exhausted (1 day of straight fighting, repeated healings, half healed injuries etc). 

[Suttree]

As I said, if it works for you all good Finnnssss. Again though just make the ground move to drop him or any of the other hundreds of things he could have easily done. Reducing a channeler from the AoL to throwing pebbles is pretty lame IMO. Saying he was too pressed to channel is a cop out.

[Entreri]

All the high level fighters, every move is by instinct, after 1000's of hours of practice.  In a sword fight of this caliber forget it.  Demandred had a fraction of second to react and attack.  

[Vambram]

All the high level fighters, every move is by instinct, after 1000's of hours of practice.  In a sword fight of this caliber forget it.  Demandred had a fraction of second to react and attack.  

+1

[Finnssss22]

As I said, if it works for you all good Finnnssss. Again though just make the ground move to drop him or any of the other hundreds of things he could have easily done. Reducing a channeler from the AoL to throwing pebbles is pretty lame IMO. Saying he was too pressed to channel is a cop out.

 

Heh, like I said, it's more than Be'lal did before he was Baelfired and he wasn't being pressed at all

[Cirin]

I can see both sides.  On the one hand, split second actions and muscle memory are a part of swordplay.  On the other hand, he had been channeling far longer than he had been a swordsman, and snapping out weaves should have come as involuntarily as any sword maneuver.  True, the medallion would have protected Lan from many of them, but you'd think that a swordsman from the Age of Legends, who is also one of the most powerful channelers of his day, would have made the One Power a natural part of his swordplay... I mean, if he thought he was fighting Llews Therin, would he really have done things the same way?  Just a sword and some rocks, like Darth Vader?

[Cirin]

Bah... double post.