Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

[Mkelly157]

My hopes have been dashed....but cheers for the info

[mb]

in Memory of Light Prologue, Moridin tells the other Forsaken to put behind grudges.  Did he mean grudges with each other or grudges with anyone?

[Cosmic Champion]

Interview: Feb 22nd, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - J. Dauro (Verbatim)

Question

What happens next? Somebody please tell me.

Brandon Sanderson

Well I can tell you a few things actually. The sequel trilogy that he was writing, he left us two sentences. One is, Mat is dicing in a gutter somewhere. And the other is Perrin is on a boat traveling to Seanchan thinking about how he's got to go kill a friend.

.

CRIPES! 

 

No rest for the weary I guess. Perrin just can't seem to get some peace. Poor guy.

 

Which does bring to mind a 'simple question' that I have--  Does he not get to keep his 'Wolfdream Traveling in the Flesh' skill that he finally learned in aMoL? After all, it was not tied directly to his Ta'verenness.

 

So why would Perrin be on a boat, since he has a much better way of getting around just like Slayer did?

.

[Orderofolde]

Remember though, if the tower hadn't split, it would have interfered with Rand. The Tairens and Carhienen were restless under Rand without very much prompting, a whole tower would've made that 10 times worse. Suian probably would've fallen without Mesaana

She was too clever for that, the Black Ajah and two forsaken running around the tower kind of had to force the issue through lies, half-truths, suggestions of wrongdoing, and actual murder, and let's not forget just how many sitters that voted were Black Ajah in a prime moment some were gone from the tower and others not informed who would have probably been upset but stilling and pulling her down wouldn't have been in it.

[EmperorAllspice]

Okay. So we see in AMOL that Graendal can compulse people in their dreams.

 

Why couldn't Mog do this to Nyn in book 5 when chasing her? I thought distance didn't matter in TAR and wherever she was in the real world wouldn't matter in the world of dreams?

 

I thought Mog was meant to be the most skilled user of TAR out of the Forsaken. Please don't tell me Sanderson is taking that honour away from Mog.

[Sabio]

Yes and no.  You saw when Mog was captured she had no idea how to free herself in the world of dreams.  Just because one thinks they are skilled doesn't mean they are, she depended on channeling, and once she couldn't  channel she was helpless.  You still have to know where they are, I don't think you can simply think take me to so and so then poof you are there.  You still have to find their dreams, you notice Gren when she was invading dreams still was near the tent.  She knew where all the great captain would be so that helped.  Slayer was more skilled then any of the Forsaken and he couldn't simply find Perin. 

[mb]

the root of compulsion is actually compel, not compulse.

 

denying the adam's existence might have been a better technique for Moghedien than Compulsion.

attempting any weave against a telaranrhiod-created thing (or against the thing's creator) seems to be the same as accepting the thing's existence.

As far as I recall, Moghedien did not attempt any technique.

[EmperorAllspice]

but it wasn't just Mog who said that she was the most skilled in TAR out of the Forsaken. It was Birgitte too.

 

She was able to identify that people were spying on her while not looking at them, not show any outward appearance that she was aware of being observed, then managed to follow Nyn and Birgitte when they shifted away. All the while Birgitte said that Mog hadn't moved once during all of that. She also managed to full bodily rip someone out of TAR and completely alter people's forms (like turning Birgitte into a child in seconds) whilst not even being there in the flesh. Mog has some genuine skills.

 

Even Egwene didn't know how to just nullify stuff until Perrin showed her how.

 

... sorry. I get defensive about Moghedien. It seems like no one ever says anything good about her skills on here.

[Sabio]

But again a lot of Mog's skill in TAR had to do with her using the power, and not because she necessarily knew how to manipulate TAR.  When she got collared she immedietly accepted it, had she truly been a master of TAR she could of simply of made it vanished.  People like Slayer or Perin could run circles around what the forsaken could do in TAR.  Egwene was another for a long time who assumed channeling meant power and skill in TAR.  Its IMO a flaw with Aes Sedai, they assume that channeling meant skill.  Mog like the rest still needed to channel if they wished to enter or leave TAR in the flesh, they didn't know Slayers trick for willing himself in or out.  Slayer for one seemed contemptuous of most of the Forsaken's skill in TAR.  But again there are limits, Mog simply couldn't think of Nyn and appear there, she needed to have an idea of where Nyn was first, hence the need to make an ambush Nyn would fall for. 

[EmperorAllspice]

But again a lot of Mog's skill in TAR had to do with her using the power, and not because she necessarily knew how to manipulate TAR.  When she got collared she immedietly accepted it, had she truly been a master of TAR she could of simply of made it vanished.  People like Slayer or Perin could run circles around what the forsaken could do in TAR.  Egwene was another for a long time who assumed channeling meant power and skill in TAR.  Its IMO a flaw with Aes Sedai, they assume that channeling meant skill.  Mog like the rest still needed to channel if they wished to enter or leave TAR in the flesh, they didn't know Slayers trick for willing himself in or out.  Slayer for one seemed contemptuous of most of the Forsaken's skill in TAR.  But again there are limits, Mog simply couldn't think of Nyn and appear there, she needed to have an idea of where Nyn was first, hence the need to make an ambush Nyn would fall for. 

 

Well, yeah. But that's merely another type of mastery. Forsaken in general are limited by their AoL ways. It's how Nyn beat her the first time after all. Took advantage of the fact that she relied on channeling. I think it'd be unfair to not call Mog a master of TAR though when she was the best at the art as defined by the time. and that wasn't my point at all. My point is that Mog is meant to be the best TAR user "out of the Forsaken." She could do things that Lanfear couldn't apparently.

 

Also, Mog did larger scale things that I haven't seen anyone else do in TAR. Like how she manipulated the entirety of TAR around Egwene to try and trap her in her own fantasies. All while remaining utterly undetected. And she ripped a hero out of TAR.

 

I think her losing to the A'dam was her letting her fear take over rather than Mog lacking in ability. Egwene also had to overcome her fear in order to make the A'dam lose it's power over her. it isn't something you will away with logic.

 

Also, Slayer actually compliments some of the fForsaken and says that they actually are skilled in TAR.

[EmperorAllspice]

Question. Moghedien fails to learn about the Dream Ter'angreal in TSR because Elayne and Nynaeve didn't tell her about them because her questions weren't specific.

 

WAs Mog meant to have screwed up there? I thought her specialty was subterfuge and she was actually good at it? How did she screw that up? Or is the implication meant to be that Elayne and Nynaeve used willpower while being compelled to resist Mog's commands in the only way they knew how (via being uberly Aes Sedai specific about the word choice) and had they been normal victims of compulsion they would've told Mog about everything anyway?

[Elsalvador]

I always kind thought this was a little bit of a loophole.

[Sabio]

Yeah its one of those they answered the question asked, had she posted the question in a different way they might of told about the dream ter'angreal.  For Mog she asked the question she felt covered everything, but as we have seen with other compulsion it doesn't leave room for independent thought to they answer exactly how they are asked.  An example might be if you ask how many angreal you have, you answer how many you have.  You don't have the capability to think does she mean ter'angreal also.

[EmperorAllspice]

So was Demandred behind all of the Shadow's maneuvers in the final battle?

 

Like was he the one who ordered Graendal to mess with the 4 Great Captains?

[Barid Bel Medar]

We don't exactly know, but it appears so. Moridin and the DO left the battle under Demandred's control. In the prologue, Moghedien was ordered to do what he said, and with Graendal recently fallen from grace, I'd say she was in a similar position.

 

The remaining Forsaken who took part in the battle - Moghedien and M'Hael - were under Demandred's command, it stands to reason that Graendal was as well.

 

I'd say Demandred came up with the strategy, he seems to have directed most of the movements. I can't see Graendal doing what she was doing willingly, nor Moghedien, and neither Moridin or the DO seemed too interested in the physical battle. I think it was more of a distraction for them than anything else, so they left it to Demandred. 

 

Graendal might be bold it enough to suggest it, but the precision and subtlety of the plan which eluded Lan and even Mat until it was almost too late is an indication of someone who was an extremely good commander, and Demandred is the only one at that point good enough in terms of war (Graendal is subtle, but she wasn't that good commanding a battlefield). 

 

So we don't know who first thought up "Hey, let's get Graendal to mess with the Great Captains", it could have been any of them, but I think it is safe to say that Demandred told Graendal what to make the Great Captains do.

[EmperorAllspice]

Okay, so Demandred is literally destroying everything with his badassery. Someone want to chime in with exactly how he was getting his ass beat by a CIRCLE OF THREE in Winter's Heart?

 

This is especially galling since Rand was going toe to toe with a circle of 13 which included Taim in AMoL earlier and Taim is meant to be really strong too.

 

I get that Rand is stronger than Demandred but I thought he was only a bit stronger. Like, Aginor and Ishamael were the only people stronger in the OP than Dem on Team Shadow and he was capable of doing stuff like holding Gateways open.

 

Also factor in that even if Demandred WAS weaker than this circle, Lanfear was able to fight someone stronger than her using superior channeling skill and managed to burn that woman's arm to cinders. You'd think if there's anything Demandred has in spades it's channeling skill.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Okay, so Demandred is literally destroying everything with his badassery. Someone want to chime in with exactly how he was getting his ass beat by a CIRCLE OF THREE in Winter's Heart?

 

 

None of the Forsaken really wanted to be there, but were forced to go by Moridin and the DO. (Mesaana we see gets punished for not turning up).

 

We see from his PoV that Demandred wasn't overly interested in being there. We see that Moghedien basically just sits there and watches.Similarly, Aginor - who gets his poor unfortunate soul blasted - also isn't keen on being there. 

 

Basically, only Lanfear - who is pretty insanely intent on killing Rand - really tries. The Taint being gone doesn't particularly affect their personal ambitions. 

 

Demandred, while he wants Rand dead, is willing to wait for a better opportunity at the time. So basically, he goes along with it until he runs into Damer and co, then gets fed up and goes home. 

 

None of them were doing their best when they could flee and wait until their own plans had come to fruition. Considering what Demandred had planned - a bunch of channelers and a badass sa'angreal - it's not likely that he'd risk his life to kill Rand right away. I think if it came down to it, and it was a battle of life and death, the outcome would have been much different. 

 

It's also worth noting that the amount of the OP Rand was using could destroy the world if the Forsaken made one wrong move. None of them were overly keen to mess it up and blow everything up. The defenders had it easier, protecting Rand. It would be like trying to disarm an atomic bomb by hand for the Forsaken. Not an appealing prospect. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Also this has been in my head since I read Winter's Heart. Rand cleansed ALL of Saidin and the implication seemed to be that he literally rung all of Saidin through Shadar Logoth. That means that the one power is finite.

 

So, does that mean that, if one constructed enough choedan kals and linked ALL of them together, one could hold the entirety of the True Source inside them? If that happened would that have the same effect on the rest of the world that being in a stedding would have? And it would drive every other channeler not a part of the circle to despair and suicide eventually?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also this has been in my head since I read Winter's Heart. Rand cleansed ALL of Saidin and the implication seemed to be that he literally rung all of Saidin through Shadar Logoth. That means that the one power is finite.

 

So, does that mean that, if one constructed enough choedan kals and linked ALL of them together, one could hold the entirety of the True Source inside them? If that happened would that have the same effect on the rest of the world that being in a stedding would have? And it would drive every other channeler not a part of the circle to despair and suicide eventually?

 

1. Yes, the power is finite, but it's almost impossible to hold ALL of it. It would need at least 10 - probably more - Chodean Kals to hold it all. However, if they did manage it, then yes, technically they could hold the entire source. 

 

I doubt that it could be held for any extended period. Rand and Nynaeve nearly died after a few hours. With a full circle, it may be easier, but I doubt they could last much longer than a few days and even if they did, the men would go mad and the circles would probably be broken or they'd have to get new ones, tainting people anyway. 

 

2. Regarding the Taint, once you have touched the tainted Saidin, you are doomed to go mad or waste away, even if you never touched it again. It is theorized that using the power speeds up the tainting, but eventually - even if it took 50 years - the Taint would kill any man who had ever touched the Tainted Power. 

[EmperorAllspice]

and last thing.

 

What WAS the point of the eye of the world? in retrospect.

 

Was it simply a hiding place for the Horn of Valere? I can't see how useful a well of Saidin would be for the forces of darkness given that the DO can offer protection from the Taint anyway. They mention that it holds enough power to break the seals on the DO's prison or reforge them but I have no idea what the hell that means given how the Eye never seemed to have any control over how much a channeler could hold or what they could do with it.

 

Hm, technically, couldn't it have been used to keep a bunch of men from going insane? Like a reverse stedding. Say, if they could stay near the Eye they could draw enough from it to stave off channeling withdrawl but then put it back into the Eye when they were done with it to keep it from getting tainted in the Source.

[Barid Bel Medar]

and last thing.

 

What WAS the point of the eye of the world? in retrospect.

 

Was it simply a hiding place for the Horn of Valere? I can't see how useful a well of Saidin would be for the forces of darkness given that the DO can offer protection from the Taint anyway. They mention that it holds enough power to break the seals on the DO's prison or reforge them but I have no idea what the hell that means given how the Eye never seemed to have any control over how much a channeler could hold or what they could do with it.

 

Hm, technically, couldn't it have been used to keep a bunch of men from going insane? Like a reverse stedding. Say, if they could stay near the Eye they could draw enough from it to stave off channeling withdrawl but then put it back into the Eye when they were done with it to keep it from getting tainted in the Source.

 

I think that the Eye was simply a place to protect the Horn and store clean OP. The people who created it believed that it was going to be needed, so they protected it well. 

 

I don't think there was any 'correct' use for it. It was simply a power source that could be used for anything. Like a weapons cache.

 

2. Not sure if that would work. I don't know if the person could use the clean saidin from the first moment they channeled. I think it may be that they can't control it and automatically touch the Tainted Saidin, then later they can use other sources like wells and such. However, if it is possible, then that may have been an option, although I doubt the creators meant for it to be used like that, or they would have told people 3000 years ago to do so. 

 

Ultimately - and you'll probably like this - I think that the power of the Eye was a huge let down from all the things that the power COULD have done, because Rand didn't know what to do, and used it for something relatively useless (it pushed back the Blight a year or so, but that's a big step down from re-sealing the Bore.) All these different people had all these ideas of what it could be used for, then Rand goes ahead and kinda wastes it. 

[Sabio]

Also have to remember at the cleansing Dem wasn't using his secpter.  At the last battle he had the 2nd most powerful weapon created for a man and he appeared in a full circle.  Both which made him basically unstoppable.  At the cleaning he was basically on his own.  There didn't seem to be any plan between the forsaken they just showed up by themselves and tried doing everything on their own.  Had they coordinated their actions they might of fared better.   There was extra incentive for the men to put a top to it because as it was pointed out if the taint was cleansed then the men wouldn't need the DO's special protection anymore so it might call into question their loyaltyand (forgot who) thought about how more then one forsaken had been killed by the DO on just the smallest hint of possible disloyalty    Dem was going to make an effort because he knew it was in his best interest to stop this but he wasn't going to get himself killed if it seemed impossible. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Also have to remember at the cleansing Dem wasn't using his secpter.  At the last battle he had the 2nd most powerful weapon created for a man and he appeared in a full circle.  Both which made him basically unstoppable.  At the cleaning he was basically on his own.  There didn't seem to be any plan between the forsaken they just showed up by themselves and tried doing everything on their own.  Had they coordinated their actions they might of fared better.   There was extra incentive for the men to put a top to it because as it was pointed out if the taint was cleansed then the men wouldn't need the DO's special protection anymore so it might call into question their loyaltyand (forgot who) thought about how more then one forsaken had been killed by the DO on just the smallest hint of possible disloyalty    Dem was going to make an effort because he knew it was in his best interest to stop this but he wasn't going to get himself killed if it seemed impossible. 

And you didn't get my point

 

Rand ON HIS OWN was able to fend off a circle of 13 including Taim. Let that sink in.

 

Demandred couldn't take on a circle of 3? I don't care what anyone says. That is a load of garbage. He was one fo the strongest and skilled men they had. Especially insulting since Graendal could take on a circle of 4.

 

Rand in book 6 when he was nowhere near his peak strength was almost confident he could take on a circle of 7 as long as he had an angreal that didn't seem all that powerful as it made him only just stronger than Rahvin.

 

No, losing to a circle of 3. Someone as skilled and powerful as Demandred is is inexcusable. Especially since you're trying to tell me that he was giving it his all. I swear you always seem like you dont' WANT me to like any of the Forsaken.

 

(angrily growls and tries to calm down)

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

= Dem was going to make an effort because he knew it was in his best interest to stop this but he wasn't going to get himself killed if it seemed impossible. 

 

No, losing to a circle of 3. Someone as skilled and powerful as Demandred is is inexcusable. Especially since you're trying to tell me that he was giving it his all. I swear you always seem like you dont' WANT me to like any of the Forsaken.

 

(angrily growls and tries to calm down)

 

I think that you may want to do that

 

My own post certainly made it clear that Demandred was NOT giving it his all. Sabio also points out that Demandred wasn't going to risk himself too much. 

 

As I - and I believe also Sabio (correct me if I'm wrong Sabio) said, Demandred had to go and put in a nominal effort - which is why he didn't just completely ignore it or flee right away - but he wasn't really serious. 

 

Rand's battles have always been do-or-die, he pushes himself to the extreme limit. Demandred's aMoL stuff is literally at the end of the world. It's do-or-die for him there. The Cleansing on the other hand, wasn't something Demandred or any of the others wanted. If not for the fact they'd be punished or suspected as a traitor, I doubt they would have gone at all.  

 

Demandred didn't really 'lose'. He just wasn't interested in fighting seriously for something he didn't really care about. It's true enough that he couldn't easily sweep them away, and that he'd have to actually try if he wanted to defeat Damer's group, but he wasn't interested. If he was, in all likelihood he would have won. 

[EmperorAllspice]

it might also help if I knew how strong Damer was meant to be compared to the other Asha'man.