[Regimental Books Discussion] Mat's army vs. Perrin's army

[F Horn of Valere]

This discussion covers all books through The Towers of Midnight. Do NOT post anything from AMoL! (Jea, is the prologue for AMoL included in that ban, or does its pre-release let us talk about it out of the spoiler board?)

 

Mat and Perrin both found themselves army leaders through a unique set of involuntary circumstances; Mat found himself the leader of the Band of the Red Hand, while Perrin found himself Lord of Two Rivers, with an army that snowballed. The discussion question is: For Mat and Perrin, how do their circumstances compare? (Were their situations similar or different?) Also, what are the main differences between the two armies, both tactically and in personnel?

 

 

Regimental Book Discussion

As it is the books that brought us here, it shall be the books that keep us here! Thus, we will be participating in monthly regimental book discussions! Each month, one of the regiments will host a discussion based on the books and the Band of the Red Hand. However, every fourth month, a member of the Senior Staff will begin a discussion on the main Band boards which will encompass either a new topic, or a review of the three topics discussed by each regiment. These discussions can concentrate solely on Mat or other characters that we meet through the Band of the Red Hand, or other battle like circumstances that have effected the Band, but they must have a connection to the Band of the Red Hand in order to be considered a valid Regimental Book Discussion.

Rules:
-In order to gain points in these discussions, you must post at least three thoughtful posts during the month (considered to be the 1st - 25th of each month). You can earn a maximum of 25 points per month by participating in these discussions. 
-Each post can receive up to five points, depending on complexity, thoughtfulness and accuracy, for a maximum of 25 points.
-Points will be awarded by the C-G hosting the regiment with the aid of the MG/UC.
-The discussion must involve the Band of the Red Hand in the Books or be connected to the Band of the Red Hand.

[dicetosser1]

I think they compare in that neither wanted the responsibility. What was surprising to me was that Perrin resisted longer then Mat did. Thought he wouldve been all "its my duty" about it.

 

Where they differed was that Mat originally gained an army by simply trying to save their lives     and dont forget HIS!  in the middle of a battle. Perrin came into a tense situation but not outright Battle and kind of earned his leadership, helped tho by the fact that the Whitecloaks were making him notorious in conflict with what people who knew him knew of him and what they saw or heard him doing. This would have helped make him seem like a strong leader type because he stood up to Bornhald.

 

 

Differences in the armies??  Mats are all soldiers or mercenarys   professionals. Perrins are  farmers. (note that when i think of Perrins army i tend to think of the 2 rivers men    the others are ruled by someone else)

 

Tactically? Perrin doesnt know much tactics just what he has seen in the last couple of years. Mat on the other hand.....enuff said! lol  Mats army has everything   imfantry cavalry and Archers. Perrins is a Archer army. Very Robin hood.

[Davrick]

Thats very true.  When I think about the differences between the two that is how I view them.  Professionals vs. Farmers/Archers.  I would hands down place my bet for Mat's army vs any others save the Seanchan for winning.  Those Dragons are mean. 

[dicetosser1]

He can beat the Seanchan two   he proved that in KoD

[Andrej]

The leadership styles stand out the most to me. Obviously Perrin doesn't have the memories Mat does, and therefore he doesn't take such a big role in the battle planning of his troops. He's more the visual leader, he's got to be seen by his men, while most of the planning and execution is carried out by his armies leaders. Tam with the Two Riversmen, for instance, or Galad with the Whitecloaks.

 

On the other hand, Mat, with all his memories of battles-past is the master tactician. While every army depends on the leadership within the smaller units, I think Mat as a whole takes a much larger part in leading his army; at least when it comes to conflict.

[F Horn of Valere]

Andrej, you beat me to my observation. While neither wanted their roles, they both still feel the weight of responsibility. The main difference is Perrin tends to delegate to his captains, while Mat is extremely hands-on. 

 

Another interesting comparison is in how each Army defies its beloved leader. Perrin's army will do what he says, but they refuse to put away his banner. Mat's army will pretend he was only joking about not being a Lord, not singing Jak o' the Shadows as often, not corrupting Olver, etc... both Perrin and Mat are respected in the heat of battle, but both armies tend to mutineer a bit regarding the unimportant things-- but their mutineering is actually done out of devotion to their commanders!

[dicetosser1]

I think thats the one thing those 2 have in common and that rand didnt have    they inspired devotion and loyalty in people.

 

One of my fav ironys is that Wil al'Seen still has the Wolfbanner after being told to burn it yet Mat can quiet his entire army just by raising his Ashandarei.  That speaks volumes about their leadership to me.

 

Horn and Andrej  you make me think Perrin is very Carhien or Tairen lord type while Mat is more Borderlander style

[Andrej]

Dice I can see where you're coming from with that comment, not a bad parallel between the two although I think mostly it's just their personality differences. Perrin has always been the more reserved, quiet one while Mat was known for being visible and vocal.

[Jeannaisais]

To be on the safe side, I'm going to assume that all of AMoL is spoiler material so just stick with up to ToM!

[dicetosser1]

you are probably right andrej   i find ity ironic that the one i think of being like Lords is surronded by farmers aqnd the one i think of as full time soldier has a bunch of Lords around him!

[BFG]

He can beat the Seanchan two   he proved that in KoD

 

I'm not so sure it's that straight-forward.  Mat managed to draw the Seanchan out of the pass and successfully used new techniques against them.  But that's not the same as beating the Seanchan altogether. 

 

We also see Ituralde beating the Seanchan (in similar circumstances - ie heavily outnumbered) right up until he's stranded in a stedding waiting to die.  Likewise, Rand and Bashere had success with the Damona Campaign, right up until Bashere was recommending pulling back before they were overwhelmed. 

 

The book evidence (both battles seen and heresay from battles foungth on the Seanchan continent) suggest that it's eminently possible to get early victories over the Seanchan, but eventually their superior numbers and fighting techniques/comman set-up mean that overtime the Seanchan are victorious.  Mat wasn't trying to beat them he was trying to sneak past them and he managed this.  Whether or not he'd have succeeded if he was trying to fight them is a different question and one that wasn't answered.

 

I think thats the one thing those 2 have in common and that rand didnt have    they inspired devotion and loyalty in people.

 

One of my fav ironys is that Wil al'Seen still has the Wolfbanner after being told to burn it yet Mat can quiet his entire army just by raising his Ashandarei.  That speaks volumes about their leadership to me.

 

Horn and Andrej  you make me think Perrin is very Carhien or Tairen lord type while Mat is more Borderlander style

 

Except one difference here is that Mat's never asked his soldiers to do something they really didn't want to do, so their loyalty and ability to take commands hasn't really been tested in the same way.

 

 

 

I'd say the similarities amount to neither asked for it, both reluctantly accepted it, both value regiments other than just the Cavalry (Perrin had Archers and Infantry at 2R, Mat has ridden with Cavalry, but also stood with crossbowmen, pikesmen and out of all the Band values his scouts opinions the most) 

 

I'd say that both relied on their men to create their armies - with Mat, both for the creation (his army decided not him) and exspansion (down to Talmanes, who also figured out how to pay for it).  Perrin accepted the initial 2R army, failed to reject the none 2R folk from the 2R and then it expanded from their.  Of the 2, I'd say Perrin relies more on t'averan hokey-pokey, Mat lucked out with the initial engagements then relied on his memories, Perrin lucked out all the way through (particularly in his Shaido arc).

[lolguy26]

where as mat has the upper hand in battles (his memories) and his battle luck, perrin doesnt have the memories but he(perrin) inspired his army (sort of like Julius Caesar)..

 

but hands down mat would win,  

[Andrej]

you are probably right andrej   i find ity ironic that the one i think of being like Lords is surronded by farmers aqnd the one i think of as full time soldier has a bunch of Lords around him!

I had never really thought of that.

[F Horn of Valere]

where as mat has the upper hand in battles (his memories) and his battle luck, perrin doesnt have the memories but he(perrin) inspired his army (sort of like Julius Caesar)..

 

but hands down mat would win,  

 

I think that would depend on a few factors, mainly what the Elayne and the Aiel think about it. Without canons and channelling, yes, I think Mat's genius would win, but if Elayne did not let him use her canons, and if the Aiel Wise Ones decided that Perrin is justified to fight Mat, the outcome might be different.

[Andrej]

The Dragons belong to the Band.

 

Mat enlisted Aludra in their construction

[dicetosser1]

glares at laffin boy    "stop poking holes in my thoughts!" lol

 

You give Mat a real army     and remember he only had like 10 thousand in KOD   and he beats the Seanchan. Done!   the hardest bit would be the Damane for him but he would just order the women killed quick and quiet if possible. While the Seanchan is good they dont have a head stuffed full of memories about War and the battlefields they were fought on, from mere soldiers to the greatest generals ever. With that advantage and fairly equal number of soldiers he would win.  Give him an army with some channelers   esp ashaman    and 

MAT RULES THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  MMMMWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[F Horn of Valere]

The Dragons belong to the Band.

 

Mat enlisted Aludra in their construction

 

The Dragons belong to Andor and are loaned to the Band. Mat enlisted Aludra, but that is why Elayne agreed to give them exclusive access to Andor's dragons. Remember, she supplied the materials and bell-founders, only on the condition that they belong to Andor.

[Andrej]

Right right, my bust.

 

I should say the patent for the Dragons belongs to the Band then

[BFG]

glares at laffin boy    "stop poking holes in my thoughts!" lol

 

You give Mat a real army     and remember he only had like 10 thousand in KOD   and he beats the Seanchan. Done!   the hardest bit would be the Damane for him but he would just order the women killed quick and quiet if possible. While the Seanchan is good they dont have a head stuffed full of memories about War and the battlefields they were fought on, from mere soldiers to the greatest generals ever. With that advantage and fairly equal number of soldiers he would win.  Give him an army with some channelers   esp ashaman    and 

MAT RULES THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  MMMMWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

(assuming this is directed at me) Think I may need to risk the Bards wrath and change my picture :(

 

Mat would find it extremely difficult to order the women killed, he is from the 2R.  And the equivalent would be they'd only need to kill Mat.

 

Mat's a genius, but the Seanchan have a better army set-up, in many ways it actually seems to be the set-up that Mat is aiming for, many people promoted on merit not titles. 

 

If you listen to the comments of the Great Captains that have fought the Seanchan, they're remarkably consistent, despite the fact they've fought different armies.  They both state that the reason the Seanchan eventually win their battles is because the army adapts, because the army command is staffed with people who think like the Great Captians do.  Now Mat as an individual can out-general them all (I'm not fighting this), but given the nature of the Seanchan, eventually they'd learn how to counter-act the new cross-bows.  Karede(?) had figured out the armies plan from the information he had, even if he guessed the wrong person was in charge (actually Thom was a good guess from the info he had, or thought he had).  Mat accomplished the same as Ituralde and Bashere, he started with a victory, we don't know what would happen if the battle continued.

 

Finally the second army that Mat fought was composed of recruits from Randland, with 1 Seanchan from Seanchanland involved.  The proper Seanchan army have shown themselves willing to retreat when necessary, so are unlikely to fight to the last man.

[F Horn of Valere]

On the flip side, Perrin didn't even need to fight the Seanchan... he just allied with them! Granted, they had a common enemy. I think conversation about either army fighting Seanchan is moot... Mat IS Seanchan, if only by marriage (an incredibly powerful one though), and Perrin is a close friend to the bloody Prince of Ravens, and has respect and admiration from a general on an upswinging career path. Both are too-strongly connected to be fighting the Seanchan anytime soon, and neither has the motivation either, unless the Seanchan tried to invade Andor or the Two Rivers. Or Saldea in Perrin's case.

[F Horn of Valere]

Going down a different route... how do their battle strategies differ?

[Jeannaisais]

I'm honestly just getting to the part of my reread where I could answer that question, but it's been so long I'm going to have to wait until I have reread those various parts (which would involve their initial battle strategies) but I would like to hear others opinions on this matter!!

[F Horn of Valere]

Mat's strategy tends to involve a lot of pincer movements and flankings, in one coordinated movement, with a pinch of luck. Perrin, meanwhile tends to rely on his captains for strategic advice, but for the most part tends to just meet the opposition with sheer determination, with a pinch of Taver'en. Sure, he was coordinated at Malden, but that is an outlier in most of his strategy. Of course, there are other subtleties... but to me, that seems to be his general philosophy.

 

Both also heavily rely on troop loyalty, but both have achieved it through a reluctant acceptance of their roles, and success, either in domestic or battle situations.

[BridMorgan]

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