Padan Fain (Full Spoilers)

[Guest Brandon.]

 

 

 

 

you are dealing with a god opposite to the creator. you cannot kill him. fain rand nobody can

 

The first is shown to be true. The second doesn't necessarily follow, and it contradicts the books.

 

contradicts how? the dark one just touched the world in aol and caused so damage. what do u think he will be able to do fully free? you cannot kill him. the amount of balefire needed to fry him will finish the entire world.

 

 

If I were to kill the darkone, I would have done it just like Rand sealed the bore.. Channeling his own energy back it him.

[Guest Entreri]

 

The Creator can be killed just like Shai'tan.   

 

What would it require? Saidin and Saidar by themselves may not be sufficient...Look what happened when saidin was used against Shai'tan.

 

Saidin+Saidar+TP of Shai'tan or Creator = Death of either entity.  At the end, Rand was wielding more Power than he was at the Cleansing or even Dragonmount and it burned him out.  Also the fact that it appears he was also drawing "all" of the TP via Moridin. 

 

 

You are confused.

 

saidin was not used against shaitan. saidin was used to close the bore on the dark one's prison. In the act of shutting of the boe, the dark one response was to taint saidin once it came into contact with him.

 

saidin and saidar used together during aol would mean both sides get tainted.

 

callandor is not more powerful than coedan kal. The male kal by itself dawrfs all the power that can be handled by callandor. Let alone the female version.

 

The power it takes to destoy shaitan would result in the destruction of the world. Basically impossible.

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is rand could not face down taim in a circle of 13 equipped with an agreal and yet he can kill a God?

Saidin and Saidar were coated with the TP, combination of which would have destroyed Shai'tan.  We don't know if TP by itself is sufficient to destroy Shai'tan.  We know that saidin/saidar and TP are enough. 

 

Given that Callandor has no buffer, there is no upper limit. Rand was drawing a titanic amount of the TP as well, possibly most of what Shai'tan could wield.

 

Logain PoV, page 886 of AMOL: "He stopped. That beam of light to the north...channeling like none he'd ever felt before, not even at the cleansing. Such power."

This is Brandon emphasing the unparalled amount of POWER that is being wielded by Rand.

 

My guess is that Rand was wielding enough saidin to destroy the world in 1 blow, possibly even greater amount of the TP. 

[PhoenixUK]

fain played a vital role in ACOS - his attack on rand led to Damer flinn sealing the Shadow wound and Fain's wound together where they fought each other, and this is prob how rand figured out how to cleanse saidin. After that, he killed the rogue asha'man - and then nothing. I'm not sure what else he could have done in the books tbh. Maybe killed one of the forsaken at a vital moment? Perhaps save rand from demandred? that would have been amusing. both obsessed with being the one to kill rand, and then ultimately saving rand by killing each other. would have made fain a true wild card, as RJ mentioned him being, something totally new and never seen before in prevous iterations of the WHeel. 

 

I do like the idea mentioned earlier, that he was a failsafe to kill Rand, should rand have gone totally mad. 

[Agitel]

I don't mind what Fain's arc amounted to. I mind how it was handled. With more time, Fain could have felt like more of a threat. It would have been nice to believe for one moment that it was possible Fain could screw everything up. But it just ended so quickly in one big "Brandon Avalanche."

[Suttree]

 

I don't mind what Fain's arc amounted to. I mind how it was handled. With more time, Fain could have felt like more of a threat. It would have been nice to believe for one moment that it was possible Fain could screw everything up. But it just ended so quickly in one big "Brandon Avalanche."

Indeed. It was just very poor execution. No need to set up the cliff hanger in ToM and showcase a big change only to have Fain end as he did in AMoL.

[Entreri]

Fain needed a longer build up and his wrecking of the Dark and Light forces should have been more detailed. 

 

The T-1000 Darkhounds were raping the Light forces prior to Fain...If only we had a pit, I would love to see a gholam vs. T-1000.

 

 

 

Shai'tan proved weak and pathetic in the end, Rand only had to close his hand to annihilate it.

[threadnecromancer]

fain played a vital role in ACOS - his attack on rand led to Damer flinn sealing the Shadow wound and Fain's wound together where they fought each other, and this is prob how rand figured out how to cleanse saidin. After that, he killed the rogue asha'man - and then nothing. I'm not sure what else he could have done in the books tbh. Maybe killed one of the forsaken at a vital moment? Perhaps save rand from demandred? that would have been amusing. both obsessed with being the one to kill rand, and then ultimately saving rand by killing each other. would have made fain a true wild card, as RJ mentioned him being, something totally new and never seen before in prevous iterations of the WHeel. 

 

I do like the idea mentioned earlier, that he was a failsafe to kill Rand, should rand have gone totally mad. 

I doubt he was a failsafe (but I do think Demandred was, which would have been cool if it had happened), Mordeth-Fain had sidestepped the Pattern, that is what made him so fascinating but unfortunately nothing came of it. If this is what Jordan envisioned for him the character should have been killed off after wounding Rand outside Carhien, he never did anything afterwards but waste some space. His appearance in Towers was impressive and he definitely seemed to be moving in an interesting direction but then he just dies pathetically. I still wonder where his power came from though, Mordeth clearly was not just the end result of hatred and fear like Moiraine implied but he was not channeling anything either.

[jedman67]

He was one of the greatest villians of all time in any form of media (Darth Vader so forth level), far greater than Shai'tan, Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear and the rest, unique. 

 

Only a few had expectations he would replace Shai'tan, however one would think he woud have a better showing.  What was the point of building up such a character for 13 books?

He wasn't the greatest - his treatment of Myrdraal and trollocs shows his hatred for shaitan. He was nowhere near the level of the Forsaken; Graendal would have balefired him for stealing cookies, and semhirage would have used the OP to replace Fain's blood with that of a Fade or somesuch. It's said that Semhirage tortured all the inhabitants of an entire city to death just to see which combinations of pain and torture were the most efficient and agonizing. Demandred leveled an entire city out of hatred for LTT, and all the forsaken have done much beyond the every day villainy you see in the books. The difference is that Fain's evil is seen "onscreen" while the crimes of the others are merely mentioned.

The forsaken would not bother nailing a fade to the wall; they would simply be obliterated - burned, bf'd you name it. After all, Fades are a dime a'dozen, and they are required to obey the Forsaken and dreadlords. 

Although nailing a Fade to the wall is pretty awesome!

[Guest Everyan]

I think Shaisam was the pattern's replacement for the DO if Rand decided to kill Shaitan.  I just finished another listen through of A Memory of Light and noticed that Shaisam was killed After Rand choose to let Shaitan live and just fix the bore.  I think the pattern's purpose for Shaisam was a backup Dark One.  Since Rand choose not to kill Shaitan and just repair the bore, the Pattern didn't need a replacement DO so Shaisam was no longer needed. 

 

If I remember correctly, Shaisam mentioned he wasnt reborn yet, he needed "a place to infest, a place where the barrier between worlds was thin."  This is just a theory but I think if Rand did decide to kill the DO, Shaisam would have made his way into the cavern where he would have encountered The Dragon about to close the bore and after a confrontation, end up imprisoned in it and replacing the DO.  Hell maybe in the next third age of this hypothetical scenario Shaitan will manifest itself like Shaisam did and end up getting killed by the "Matt" of that era because "Rand" decided not to kill the DO (Shaisam).

[threadnecromancer]

more about the importance of Fain, apparently he set the trap with the flies in the Great Hunt was Fain:  "Robert Jordan

This scene where Rand sees the same thing over and over again was actually Fain's doing, a trap devised by him to put Rand in a time loop forever."

 

I had always assumed it was a Bubble of Evil, I am kin of curious what that time loop means though, was that literal?

 

[threadnecromancer]

It is a pity we did not get to see any more of that.

[clutzyninja]

I think Shaisam was the pattern's replacement for the DO if Rand decided to kill Shaitan.  I just finished another listen through of A Memory of Light and noticed that Shaisam was killed After Rand choose to let Shaitan live and just fix the bore.  I think the pattern's purpose for Shaisam was a backup Dark One.  Since Rand choose not to kill Shaitan and just repair the bore, the Pattern didn't need a replacement DO so Shaisam was no longer needed. 

 

If I remember correctly, Shaisam mentioned he wasnt reborn yet, he needed "a place to infest, a place where the barrier between worlds was thin."  This is just a theory but I think if Rand did decide to kill the DO, Shaisam would have made his way into the cavern where he would have encountered The Dragon about to close the bore and after a confrontation, end up imprisoned in it and replacing the DO.  Hell maybe in the next third age of this hypothetical scenario Shaitan will manifest itself like Shaisam did and end up getting killed by the "Matt" of that era because "Rand" decided not to kill the DO (Shaisam).

interesting theory

[TheSociopath]

I am currently on my fourth re-read of the series, though I haven't studied any author quotes. In regards to the question of whether the DO and the Creator are killable, I believe that in AMoL it says that when Rand held the DO, ready to kill him, he could see the truth behind all of its statements. Since the DO commented on his vision of the world with the DO dead, wouldn't that mean he could see the definitive answer? 

Consequently, building on the previous comments of the epilogue, if he couldn't have actually killed the DO, wouldn't that have been mentioned in his reflections?