Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[tromdabomb]

Does anyone here kinda think Egwene treated Gawyn like an annoying pet, rather then a husband?

[TNine]

She is not the equal of the Dragon reborn in anyway (In Egwene's mind I am sure she thought she was) and the Amyrlin Seat is no more the supreme leader in Randland.That age has passed.Egwene realizes that in certain situations like where she understands there is no way the White Tower can keep sole control of objects of Power anymore with the Black Tower in existence,in certain other situations she reverts back to what the Amyrlin Seat WAS but not anymore.

 

She should have requested her superior, the Dragon conduct her wedding.

 

The Dragon is not the god-emperor of everything, able to do whatever he wants and expect everyone to bow to him. That was the entire error of Rand's thinking in the first place. He does not rule over the Amyrlin Seat, and he can't walk into a country and expect everyone to obey. We saw the results of this in TGS. There needs to be checks on Rand, people to say he's wrong. Anyway, its clear that the Amyrlin Seat is still considered the second most powerful person in the Westlands--look at the scenes with the different leaders, where they all come up and bow to Egwene and kiss her ring. Now that the civil war is over, the White Tower is once again becoming as influential as it once was.

 

Beyond that, even if Rand is more powerful than Egwene, that doesn't make him her superior. That's not how power structure works. She's like the Pope of the catholic church--she might not be the most powerful, but when it comes to religious duties she can't be seen answering to anyone.

 

That said, i kinda wish Egwene got Nynaeve to marry them. It would have been nice to see her call back to her roots that way.

Edited January 19, 2013 by TNine

[David Selig]

She should have requested her superior, the Dragon conduct her wedding.

Yeah, what a great idea. Egwene's previous boyfriend conducting her wedding. It wouldn't have been awkward at all. And it's not like Gawyn loathed and wanted to kill Rand for half the series - oh, wait...

[batcaver]

That said, i kinda wish Egwene got Nynaeve to marry them. It would have been nice to see her call back to her roots that way.

 

 

I really like that idea.  It would have been very fitting, I think.  Of course, why not just go ahead and pretend that happened between the books so it won't get in the way of the 800 pages of trolloc slashing we need for the final book...

[XXX]

 

She is not the equal of the Dragon reborn in anyway (In Egwene's mind I am sure she thought she was) and the Amyrlin Seat is no more the supreme leader in Randland.That age has passed.Egwene realizes that in certain situations like where she understands there is no way the White Tower can keep sole control of objects of Power anymore with the Black Tower in existence,in certain other situations she reverts back to what the Amyrlin Seat WAS but not anymore.

 

She should have requested her superior, the Dragon conduct her wedding.

 

The Dragon is not the god-emperor of everything, able to do whatever he wants and expect everyone to bow to him. That was the entire error of Rand's thinking in the first place. He does not rule over the Amyrlin Seat, and he can't walk into a country and expect everyone to obey. We saw the results of this in TGS. There needs to be checks on Rand, people to say he's wrong. Anyway, its clear that the Amyrlin Seat is still considered the second most powerful person in the Westlands--look at the scenes with the different leaders, where they all come up and bow to Egwene and kiss her ring. Now that the civil war is over, the White Tower is once again becoming as influential as it once was.

 

Beyond that, even if Rand is more powerful than Egwene, that doesn't make him her superior. That's not how power structure works. She's like the Pope of the catholic church--she might not be the most powerful, but when it comes to religious duties she can't be seen answering to anyone.

 

That said, i kinda wish Egwene got Nynaeve to marry them. It would have been nice to see her call back to her roots that way.

 

Nope the WHite Tower will never be as powerful as it was in the third age because there are a no of other institutions who are as powerful and cannot be dominated by the White Tower in Randland in the fourth age.

 

If EGwene is the pope,Rand is Jesus. Figure out who is superior.Her power is only due to her position,his power is his very being.

Edited January 19, 2013 by XXX47

[Suttree]

The WT/BT combo will most likely be the prevailing power in Randland and we know where that will be situatued. This is hinted at with the "Great Arvalon" references from the future.

[Suttree]

Things change of course. The WT/BT combo will most likely be the prevailing power in Randland and we know where that will be situated. This is hinted at with the "Great Arvalon" references from the future.

[XXX]

Not with the Seachan there.At the end of LB the Seachan holds the most territory in Randland and has by far the greatest fighting power of them all.

[papertiger]

That's why Cadsuane is a perfect fit for Amyrlin during the period of transition; she has the authority and also experience with men who can channel.

 

Egwene would have merely perpetuated the divide between the two.

[XXX]

Excepts Cads might drop dead anytime,how will she do a long term transition?

[TNine]

 

Nope the WHite Tower will never be as powerful as it was in the third age because there are a no of other institutions who are as powerful and cannot be dominated by the White Tower in Randland in the fourth age.

Influence can wax and wane. I imagine that, with the upcoming compact, the White Tower will become the de facto center for channelers--especially if it starts to become integrated with the Black Tower.

 

If EGwene is the pope,Rand is Jesus. Figure out who is superior.Her power is only due to her position,his power is his very being.

Wat.

 

 

Edit:

Not with the Seachan there.At the end of LB the Seachan holds the most territory in Randland and has by far the greatest fighting power of them all.

They don't hold that much territory, compared to the rest of the Westlands (and it is likely the Borderlanders will begin to absorb the Blight). Most of the countries that don't belong the Seachan will indubitably side with the White Tower over the Seachan.

 

Military might doesn't matter cause there isn't going to be a war. Mat won't let Tuon break her word, and they have to retake Seacha anyway. In this case, the Amyrlin Seat will have a much better time winning allies, since the Empress would consider it "below" her.

Edited January 19, 2013 by TNine

[Suttree]

Not with the Seachan there.At the end of LB the Seachan holds the most territory in Randland and has by far the greatest fighting power of them all.

We know the Seanchan will have their hands full with reclaiming their own land, that's what the Outriggers were going to be about.

[XXX]

 

 

Nope the WHite Tower will never be as powerful as it was in the third age because there are a no of other institutions who are as powerful and cannot be dominated by the White Tower in Randland in the fourth age.

Influence can wax and wane. I imagine that, with the upcoming compact, the White Tower will become the de facto center for channelers--especially if it starts to become integrated with the Black Tower.

> 

If EGwene is the pope,Rand is Jesus. Figure out who is superior.Her power is only due to her position,his power is his very being.

Wat.

 

 

 

The time of the Wite Tower as a female only organization which is the pre emininent power in Rand land is finished.It will never ever get that power again now that the men can channel.End of story.

 

If the WT has to become the leading power in Randland it will have to integerated with the men but then that is not the WT of the third age.

[XXX]

 

Not with the Seachan there.At the end of LB the Seachan holds the most territory in Randland and has by far the greatest fighting power of them all.

We know the Seanchan will have their hands full with reclaiming their own land, that's what the Outriggers were going to be about.

 

That is immaterial.In Randland they are the most powerful nation today.Sure they will deline eventually as all empires do.But as of the end of the LB,they are sitting pretty.

[TNine]

The time of the Wite Tower as a female only organization which is the pre emininent power in Rand land is finished.It will never ever get that power again now that the men can channel.End of story.

 

If the WT has to become the leading power in Randland it will have to integerated with the men but then that is not the WT of the third age.

 

Your point being...what, exactly? The White Tower is still considered the most influential power in the Westlands. Most of the nations still respect the Tower in the utmost and Cairhien, Andor, Manatherin, and Altara are ruled by an Aes Sedai. They also have strong ties to all of the other channeler groups.

 

The White Tower is probably the most powerful institution outside of the Seachan, and the Amyrlin Seat is probably the most powerful person besides the Empress.

[XXX]

My point being that the White was the single most important insitution in the third age.Is it in the same position in the fourth age?. Absolutely not. Cairhien and Andor are ruled by one AS. Altara is ruled by the Seachan not any AS.

 

The power of the WT in the third age was tht fact tht no other group could use the OP openly. Once that monoploy was broken,the WT was on the way down.

[papertiger]

Cadsuane will be fine since the Oaths will no longer be necessary; the Black Tower has no interest in taking them and the AS don't need to worry about DFs anymore. The 4th Age is going to lead to a different view of the OP, as well as different groups of channeled that have no connection to the White Tower.

 

That is why Egwene would have been a poor choice for Amyrlin moving forward; she held to the old notion of subjecting every channeler to the authority of the White Tower: the Kin, the Wise Ones, Windfinders. Cadsuane is more of a realist, not above political maneuvering but ultimately cognizant of the changing nature of her institution and its role in history moving forward.

[MasterAblar]

From what I saw in aMoL, the WT and BT don't seem to be headed to any kind of merging for the moment. There's a small amount of cooperation on the individual level, with Androl and Pevara being the most obvious example, but that's pretty much it. Considering Logain and Androl's thoughts on the whole matter, things look like they're going to remain just as they are for now. And considering how unbalanced everything is already likely to be in the Last Battle's aftermath, that's probably a good thing.

[TNine]

My point being that the White was the single most important insitution in the third age.Is it in the same position in the fourth age?. Absolutely not. Cairhien and Andor are ruled by one AS. Altara is ruled by the Seachan not any AS.

 

The power of the WT in the third age was tht fact tht no other group could use the OP openly. Once that monoploy was broken,the WT was on the way down.

An Aes Sedai rules one third of the Westlands, and they have more pull on the independent factions than any other group. The Aiel have already shown respect for Cads, Nynaeve, and Elayne. Androl (who, as far as i can tell, is the second most influential person in the Black Tower) is bonded to an Aes Sedai, and it is likely those two groups will integrate. Tear and Illian have already shown that they still bow to the will of the Amyrlin Seat, that's why they were at the FoM in the first place. The Windfinders are devoutly opposed to the Seachan. Elayne has a small claim on Saldea, and the Queen of Malkier is another Aes Sedai. The White Tower, right now, is strong. And there's no reason to believe it won't be the center for learning and channeling for the next few hundred years, since the Aiel and Windfinders are likely to maintain their own, separate cultural identity and the Seachan are gonna have a hard time getting that rule.

 

And the future doesn't matter to this discussion, since we are talking about the authority of the Amyrlin Seat right now, not down the line.

 

Edit: "Has influence over" is not the same as "rules". The White Tower doesn't rule the Black Tower, but they are more likely to be able to affect what the Black Tower is doing than any other group, at present.

Edited January 19, 2013 by TNine

[Suttree]

 

 

Not with the Seachan there.At the end of LB the Seachan holds the most territory in Randland and has by far the greatest fighting power of them all.

We know the Seanchan will have their hands full with reclaiming their own land, that's what the Outriggers were going to be about.

 

That is immaterial.In Randland they are the most powerful nation today.Sure they will deline eventually as all empires do.But as of the end of the LB,they are sitting pretty.

Yes totally immaterial that they immediately need to take the majority of their forces right back across the sea and a portion of the lands they control on Rand's continent were in open revolt.  They most certainly are not sitting pretty.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Suttree

[Elan Tedronai]

It's amusing to hear people calling egwene a poor amyrlin. Might cause a black tower conflict eh?

 

Really? Sometimes when i look upon these threads i can only wonder what book i am reading.

 

 

Then it comes to me. It doesnt matter because it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things here. when you are hated you will be hated. Even your positives will be turned against you.

 

In a way it's good egwene went out in a blaze of glory. fitting end to a fitting character. which can't be said about 90% of WOT characters and that includes the dragon reborn

[XXX]

 

My point being that the White was the single most important insitution in the third age.Is it in the same position in the fourth age?. Absolutely not. Cairhien and Andor are ruled by one AS. Altara is ruled by the Seachan not any AS.

 

The power of the WT in the third age was tht fact tht no other group could use the OP openly. Once that monoploy was broken,the WT was on the way down.

An Aes Sedai rules one third of the Westlands, and they have more pull on the independent factions than any other group. The Aiel have already shown respect for Cads, Nynaeve, and Elayne. Androl (who, as far as i can tell, is the second most influential person in the Black Tower) is bonded to an Aes Sedai, and it is likely those two groups will integrate. Tear and Illian have already shown that they still bow to the will of the Amyrlin Seat, that's why they were at the FoM in the first place. The Windfinders are devoutly opposed to the Seachan. Elayne has a small claim on Saldea, and the Queen of Malkier is another Aes Sedai. The White Tower, right now, is strong. And there's no reason to believe it won't be the center for learning and channeling for the next few hundred years, since the Aiel and Windfinders are likely to maintain their own, separate cultural identity and the Seachan are gonna have a hard time getting that rule.

 

And the future doesn't matter to this discussion, since we are talking about the authority of the Amyrlin Seat right now, not down the line.

 

Edit: "Has influence over" is not the same as "rules". The White Tower doesn't rule the Black Tower, but they are more likely to be able to affect what the Black Tower is doing than any other group, at present.

 

 

However you spin it. Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin had more power over Randlands than Egwene as Amyrlin.Cads will have even less power than Egwene had in her small tenure.It is a downward spiral. The female domination of Randland is over. The Dragon ended it.

 

Tear and Illian were at FOM against Rand's plan for the seals not to follow the WT.

 

If the Amyrlin Seat expects every ruler in Randland to kiss her ring now she has another thing coming.That age is over.

Edited January 20, 2013 by XXX47

[TNine]

However you spin it. Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin had more power over Randlands than Egwene as Amyrlin.Cads will have even less power than Egwene had in her small tenure.It is a downward spiral. The female domination of Randland is over. The Dragon ended it.

Egwene was in power for, what, two months? During that time she was able to call upon several monarchs to come to her. Whereas before, channeling was illegal in Tear and being Aes Sedai was illegal in Amadacia, now the Tower has multiple countries at their command. The only way they've lost influence is by losing Aes Sedai (they're down to like 200 sisters now), and that applies to pretty much every power base right now.

 

 

Tear and Illian were at FOM against Rand's plan for the seals not to follow the WT.

They went at Egwene's urging to support Egwene's opinion, with Egwene providing them with transportation to and from. And once Egwene agreed with Rand, they agreed almost immediately. They may not be answering directly to Egwene, but that suggests a certain amount of influence, no?

 

 

If the Amyrlin Seat expects every ruler in Randland to kiss her ring now she has another thing coming.That age is over.

Somebody better tell every ruler in Randland this, since in the meeting in the FoM we see most of them come up to Egwene and kiss her ring:

[Darlin] hesitated, then dismounted and came forward, bowing his head and kissing the ring. “The Light illumine you, Mother.”

 

...

 

[Gregorian] didn’t wait for Egwene to prod him; he swung from his horse and seized her hand, executing a flourishing bow and a kiss to the ring.

 

...

 

The other rulers allowed Egwene to enter before them.

Doesn't exactly scream disrespect.

[XXX]

EVERY ruler in Randland USED to kiss the Amyrlin's ring.The biggest ruler in Randland now is the Seachan,they consider the Amyrlin an animal not even human.

 

YOu seems to not understand difference between "every" and "some".And not understand difference between being the "ultimate power" and "one of the powers".

Edited January 20, 2013 by XXX47

[TNine]

Every ruler in Randland USED to kiss the Amyrlin's ring.

As of AMOL, they are still doing it, so...

 

The biggest ruler in Randland is the Seachan,they consider the Amyrlin an animal not even human.

The Seachan have absolute control of several nations--but very little outside of that. The Aiel hate them, the White Tower hates them, Illian hates them, Arad Doman hates them, the Seafolk hate them, Elayne's supernation hates them, etc.

 

And if you want to talk about the largest nation, that goes to Elayne, who control Ghealdean, Manatherin, Andor, and Cairhien, as compared to Tarabon, Amadacia, and Altara. And before you say anything, yes that is more land and more people than the Seachan.

 

 

YOu seems to not understand difference between every and some.And not understand difference between ultimate power and one of the powers.

I don't even understand what you are saying here.