Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[BlueSun]

I'd like to offer an apology Sultree. I am new here and over-bombastic by nature. Further complicating my full participation is the fact that I am using an iPhone. I live off-the-grid and have no other method, so, yeah: all of this is typed out on a phone.... It is difficult to format and edit. Reading posts thoroughly is grueling. I didn't track the various back and forth's well enough, and got caught in an echo chamber. "Peevish" is a good word for.

 

Again: I'm sorry, Sultree

[papertiger]

Classy move, Blue Sun. People get riled up all the time on boards but rarely have the mettle to admit it.

 

Your point on Egwene's treatment of Nynaeve is still valid, though.

[Suttree]

@BlueSun

 

No worries mate, welcome to DM!

[LewsTherin10]

I believe Peririn makes a comment in the beginning of TSR warning Rand/Mat of Egwene.  He say something to the effect of, "She forgotten where she's come from more than anyone one of us." It stuck with me through the whole series.  She was the only Emond's Field character who almost never thought back to her home and past.  It says a lot about her and always intrigued me.

 

That being said, I like Egwene's character.  She won me over during her captivity in the White Tower and during the Seanchan attack.

[LewsTherin10]

duplicate post

Edited January 19, 2013 by LewsTherin10

[papertiger]

That captivity arc (along with her admission of toh to the Wise Ones and subsequent takeover of the SAS) really got me excited about Egwene. I thought that she, like Rand, had learned to embrace pain and become stronger in spite of it.

 

Then her character took a dive right after the unification plot. It was disappointing to see a character undergo so much without changing for the better. Sure Egwene triumphed, but it's as if she took that triumph as a sign that she was justified in everything she did and was.

 

Her redemption could have been achieved by communicating the anti-balefire weave to Nynaeve or Moiraine via TAR. If the Flame of Tar Valon had been used to Seal the Bore, I would have cheered for Egwene.

[TNine]

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature 

...what

[papertiger]

It was that one character beat that made love Elyas:

 

"I said 'No', girl."

[BlueSun]

 

 

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

...what

tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin

"From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking."

 

Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion.

 

"....bullied him in to the saddle....."

 

It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse..

[Hyronimus]

Hi just general comments...

 

After the first few chapters were I felt we were reading some of egwene's emotions that i thought we had delt with before.

 

Then things got cranking and I enjoyed the battle scenes. I was sad she died, I really saw her (as I believe someone commented) as part of the 4th age.

 

As respectable as her exit was her highest point was getting Tuon to blink on the damane issue(if only a little, man that tuon makes me grind my teath in these conversations)

 

pity that wand is lost though...

[BlueSun]

It was that one character beat that made love Elyas:"I said 'No', girl."

She's nice to Elays until she discovers he cant by manipulated or teach her to talk with wolves. After that, she's pretty aloof. "Nothing to be gained; he is irrelevant."

[Ala Rubra]

She was beaten so badly that she required healing multiple times a day so that she would be able to walk. Maybe not torture, but it was hardly easy. Later, when Egwene was placed in a cell too small to stretch out and beaten multiple times a day was definitely torture, though.

 

And they were trying to force Egwene to bend, which isn't much different from trying to break her. They wanted to do it in a way that wasn't really considered torture, but she definitely pressed the limits of what was allowed there. And then she called Elaida a crazy bitch (paraphrasing) and in the true, subtle fashion that would make any Aes Sedai proud they tried to torture her until she was more complacent.

 

It's nowhere close to torture. Egwene was intentionally breaking the rules, knowing full well the consequences for doing so. Silviana never gave her more punishment than what Egwene had essentially asked for.

[Suttree]

I love the sheer absurdity and audacity of using Egwene sacrificing herself to stop the bad guys as an argument to make her look bad.

 

All you can do is shake your head.

 

 

She was beaten so badly that she required healing multiple times a day so that she would be able to walk. Maybe not torture, but it was hardly easy. Later, when Egwene was placed in a cell too small to stretch out and beaten multiple times a day was definitely torture, though.

 

And they were trying to force Egwene to bend, which isn't much different from trying to break her. They wanted to do it in a way that wasn't really considered torture, but she definitely pressed the limits of what was allowed there. And then she called Elaida a crazy bitch (paraphrasing) and in the true, subtle fashion that would make any Aes Sedai proud they tried to torture her until she was more complacent.

 It's nowhere close to torture. Egwene was intentionally breaking the rules, knowing full well the consequences for doing so. Silviana never gave her more punishment than what Egwene had essentially asked for.      

Sigh.

 

TGS

 

"The cell is narrow enough for me to touch opposite walls at once," Egwene said. "And isn't very long, either. When I lie down, I have to bend my knees to fit. I can't stand, since the ceiling is so low it makes me stoop, and I can't sit without pain, for they no longer Heal me between beatings....

 

She closed her eyes, then opened them to blackness. Her body suddenly exploded with pain, her backside pounded raw from the strap, her arms and legs cramped from being forced to lie curled in the small room. It smelled of old straw and mold, and she knew that if her nose hadn't been used to it, she would have smelled the stench of her own unwashed body as well. She stifled a groan—there were women outside, guarding her and maintaining her shield. She wouldn't let them hear her offer complaint, not even in the form of a groan.

 

She sat up, wearing the same novice dress that she'd worn to Elaida's dinner party. The sleeves of the dress were stiff with dried blood, and this cracked as she moved, scraping against her skin. She was parched; they never gave her enough water. But she did not complain. No yells, no cries, no begging. She forced herself to sit up despite the pain, smiling to herself at how it felt. She crossed her legs, then leaned back and—one by one—stretched the muscles in her arms. Then she stood and stooped over, stretching her back and shoulders. Finally, she lay down on her back and stretched her legs up into the air, cringing as they complained. She needed to remain limber. Pain was nothing. Nothing at all compared with the danger the White Tower was in...

The words, repeated in her head, helped stave off the panic at considering yet another day within this cell. What would she have done without the nightly dreams to keep her sane? Again, she thought of poor Rand, locked away. She and he shared something now. A kinship beyond a common childhood in the Two Rivers. They had both suffered Elaida's punishments. And it hadn't broken either of them.

 

There was nothing to do but wait. Around noon, they would open the doors and drag her out to be beaten. It wouldn't be Silviana who did the punishing. Giving the beatings was seen as a reward, compensation to the Red sisters for having to spend all day sitting in the dungeons guarding her.

 

After the beating, Egwene would go back in the cell and be given a bowl of tasteless gruel. Day after day it was the same.

Oh look empathy towards Rand as well. Imagine that.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Suttree

[TNine]

 

 

 

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

...what

 

 

tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin

"From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking."

 

Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion.

 

"....bullied him in to the saddle....."

 

It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse..

Yeah, okay then.

 

Egwene had to force Perrin into the saddle because he was insistent on bearing more of the load than he should. On the converse, Perrin was also forcing Egwene into the saddle. That blade cuts both ways.

 

The complaint about Bela is, as far as i can tell, not even mentioned in the book, and doesn't become an issue (Bela is never the reason they are moving too slowly). So even if that complaint is in the book, it doesn't hold water.

 

How in the holy hell this scene can be used as proof that Egwene is a self-involved narcissist is absolutely  mindblowing. I really don't know what to say.

It's nowhere close to torture. Egwene was intentionally breaking the rules, knowing full well the consequences for doing so. Silviana never gave her more punishment than what Egwene had essentially asked for.

 

The same argument could be made for the Seachan and the damane. As long as a damane does its duty, it should not be punished.

 

 

I'm not going to get into a semantic argument over the word "torture". Those never end well. Fine, Silviana didn't torture Egwene, just spent a few weeks attempting to beat her into submission multiple times a day. Happy?

Edited January 19, 2013 by Barid Bel Medar
language

[batcaver]

The girls were really bratty in first few books, but that's what allowed them to evolve as the books went on.  Egwene and Nynaeve were almost insufferable for me pretty much until somewhere in TSR.  One thing Jordan was very good at was creating infuriating characters.  Sometimes I could get so pissed at them that I overlooked their good qualities.  They were very much like real human beings in that regard.  I remember when I was reading somewhere in the middle of the series for the first time and suddenly realized that I no longer hated Nynaeve.  Her transition was subtle and it really won me over in spite of myself.  I have my suspicions that some people that hate Egwene are still holding on to a certain instance of her and are not looking at the bigger picture.  It certainly would've been easier to do that if her character had been given the regard in AMoL that she deserved, but still, she doesn't deserve all the hate.

 

I always had a soft spot for her even aside from her character development, just because I really loved the Seanchan/White Tower attack scene and because she's the only character that hates Tuon as much as I do.

Edited January 19, 2013 by batcaver

[BlueSun]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

...what

 

 

 

tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin

"From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking."

 

Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion.

 

"....bullied him in to the saddle....."

 

It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse..

 

 

 

 

Yeah, okay then.

 

Egwene had to force Perrin into the saddle because he was insistent on bearing more of the load than he should. On the converse, Perrin was also forcing Egwene into the saddle. That blade cuts both ways.

 

The complaint about Bela is, as far as i can tell, not even mentioned in the book, and doesn't become an issue (Bela is never the reason they are moving too slowly). So even if that complaint is in the book, it doesn't hold water.

 

How in the holy hell this scene can be used as proof that Egwene is a self-involved narcissist is absolutely  mindblowing. I really don't know what to say.

I just read that part: (pp333-4) where does it say Perrin was insistant on bearing more of the load? It doesn't. It's Perrin's POV and his over riding concern is his physical size and the strain on the horse. Yes, he says this to Egwene. No, she doesn't care. it is a legitimate concern, given they have a looooooong way to go to reach Caemlyn. Whether Bela is slow or quick is irrelevant. She was concerned about making him do what she wanted.

 

She is a self involved narcissist because she repeats behavior like this over and over and over. I posted this because somebody claimed letting Perrin ride was an act of altruism when it is clearly not. Sorry....

Edited January 19, 2013 by Barid Bel Medar
quote edit

[Hyronimus]

she's the only character that hates Tuon as much as I do

 

Even Rand caved on the Damene issue more then i would like. Egwene fulfilled the real need I had for for someone to truely refute Tuons self assumed right.

[Tha Spider]

Something I'd like to point out is that the Aes Sedai didn't seem to really care that Egwene died.  Ya they were planning a huge memorial for her and what not but like the day after the last battle they're already trying to twist Cadsuane's arm to get her to do it.  Like yo the last battle just ended.  And we won.  Lets take a couple days off from politicking and shit and lets just relax a little. 

[Guest DragonWhiskey]

I was never a huge fan of Egwene. I only really enjoyed her in TGS and maybe the first 2 or 3 books. But I thought her end was very well done. It was the leader of the black tower vs the leader of the white tower. Both raised to their positions in LOC. the final confrontation was inevitable. I know a lot of people thought Logain would take out Taim, but I was always on the Egwene bandwagon. I loved the balefire=dark. so the light had to balance it out thing. It fit in perfectly with the themes in the rest of the series. I think she went out well and I teared up when she died.. That being said. I wasn't shocked that she died. Someone big had to die and you couldn't kill the big 3 and nynaeve was with rand the whole time, so she was the only one of the original two rivers folk who could actually die. Didn't care for her and suspected it might happen, but her death still hit me hard. I kept hoping she would come back

[Barid Bel Medar]

Guys, this is not about whether Egwene is a good person or not. If it isn't relevant to her actions in aMoL, it should be taken to the nearest designated swamp, which you can find here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/78310-question-about-egwene-from-someone-only-on-book-5/

 

I'll quote yoniy0's post on the thread as to the reasons behind this: 

 

 

 

Japboix, I think the replies to this thread alone tell you the entire story. We have a standing rule that Egwene can only be discussed in this manner in a dedicated thread, because arguments about her have derailed many a thread (which tells you all you need to know, that there are passionate advocates for both opinions).

 

Since we don't currently have an active thread about Egwene, feel free to use this one to your hearts' content, everyone. Just do Japboix a favor and don't mention any spoilers, and don't let it devolve into a shouting match either, okay?

 

 

Soon enough you will get a aMoL spoiler thread where you can judge her character's merits and flaws, but for now, I would appreciate it if this topic was not derailed by Egwene love/hate. Many people here would like to discuss the particulars of Egwene's role in aMoL. 

[Ala Rubra]

The same argument could be made for the Seachan and the damane. As long as a damane does its duty, it should not be punished.

 

The difference is that Egwene could have left the WT at any time to return to the rebels. She choose to stay, so she choose to submit to their rules or be punished for it.

[XXX]

 

So bottom line - she did it because she was losing everything she valued most (power and influence) so death was welcome. Any good that came out of it was just gravy.

There are numerous quotes throughout the book that show her drive for power was for the greater good Lil and aimed towards helping the world at the LB(there are multiple quotes of that nature). I know you don't like her but you can surely see that. It's not as if she was on a power trip to for some insidious purpose.

 

You are of course welcome to your interpretation in the above when she took out everyone but her helping heal the pattern and then helping Rand make the right decision which pushed him to overcome the DO pretty calls it into question.

 

Rand heard his fathers voice in his head right before Egwene's, I think it is more logical that he is hearing things in his head than that Egwene can speak after death.How exactly can she do that BTW?

[XXX]

She noted that she had to sign it because no one stood above the Amyrlin Seat. This is likely because, you know, nobody stands above the Amyrlin Seat. A few people might be argued to be equals (Empress of the Seachan, the Dragon Reborn, the M'Hael) but she is a woman to whom kings and queens bow.

 

She is not the equal of the Dragon reborn in anyway (In Egwene's mind I am sure she thought she was) and the Amyrlin Seat is no more the supreme leader in Randland.That age has passed.Egwene realizes that in certain situations like where she understands there is no way the White Tower can keep sole control of objects of Power anymore with the Black Tower in existence,in certain other situations she reverts back to what the Amyrlin Seat WAS but not anymore.

 

She should have requested her superior, the Dragon conduct her wedding.

[Sightblinder'sMinder]

Eh, Egwene was a hit and miss through the book. 

 

Her death was heroic and truly fitting end to a great woman. 

 

However, she was all over the place in the rest of the book, you couldn't determine what she was going to do or say, she was so inconsistent. Her research and words to Elayne about the Seals were totally thrown out the window in the Dragon's Farce. 

 

Her and Rand both were so ridiculous in that scene, she changed completely and acted like a total idiot, all her development thrown out the window. First she goes in and intends to have the White Tower in control of the Last Battle (inconsistent in itself) then when Rand says the Amyrlin is no good to lead, she doesn't say a thing. Not to mention that bloody farce of a paragraph when she suggests Rand takes the "safe" option and gets saidin tainted again! Of course, she is not doing what Rand says, but there is no way I am buying Egwene would suggest that, no matter the reasons. Since when has she ever shirked from a difficult task. Rand's reaction to it was similarly ridiculous, but at least understandable in the slightest, it was so out of character that it almost seemed like a reasonable conclusion for Rand. 

 

Her meeting with Tuon was good for her, but it made Tuon out to be a total idiot - which she is most definitely not, whatever else you may call her. Egwene was awesome, but unfortunately it required replacing Tuon with Mesaana. 

 

I was angry that Gawyn did that too her, she deserved so much more, and while she did hold the world together, dying well, perhaps it was even needed to keep the world alive, it was annoying nonetheless, that Gawyn practically killed her. 

 

Then the random flip with the Seals was ridiculous. It reminds me off the cliche of a villain "righting all their wrongs" on their deathbed. It was good that she came to the conclusion, but poorly done. She should have slowly changed her mind, seeing the horrors of the Last Battle, and the balefire, slowly realise that it was necessary. 

 

So while I admire her heroic end, and her as a character, the inconsistencies really  took away from her death, I SHOULD have felt more sorrow, but it was just so strange that I can only do it in hindsight. 

 

I agree. I never found Egwene to be a very compelling character, so perhaps I'm biased, but she really was all over the map in AMoL. The whole thing with the Seals seemed so out of place to me. She'd learned all these important lessons throughout the series, only to forget them all for the Last Battle. 

 

Also, it was my hope that she'd kill Demandred after he recognized her for Ilyena's reincarnation. I suppose it made sense for her to kill Taim (i.e. White Tower vs. Black Tower) but I was expecting something a little bigger than that; something that would reveal her larger role in the Pattern. 

 

But, with that being said, I actually thought her ending was well written. I suppose she did end up with a much larger role than simply killing one of the Forsaken. She became the Flame of Tar Valon itself; the living embodiment of the Aes Sedai. That was a nice touch. And, now we know why they call it the Crystal Throne. 

 

Yet, now we'll never know who Ilyena was, or if she was even reincarnated into the current cycle. I always had a feeling she was Egwene (rather than Elayne). It would make sense. She's the first one to witness Rand's salvation atop Dragonmount, and when Rand shows Lanfear his love for his wives, Ilyena and Elayne are two different people. I had thought that perhaps, subconsciously, Rand knew that Egwene was Ilyena, and by letting her go her own way, he was "saving" her from himself. 

 

Of course, we'll never know now. That's a question that will go unanswered throughout the ages. But, it sounds good to me, so why not? 

Edited January 19, 2013 by Sightblinder'sMinder

[XXX]

 

 

 

Perrin didn't want to ride; he told her so and she insisted and wore him down..... Not altruistic: further proof of her horrible nature

...what

tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin

"From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking."

 

Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion.

 

"....bullied him in to the saddle....."

 

It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse..

 

It is simple she wanted to be the equal of Perrin.If Perrin could walks so could she immaterial that Perrin is much much stronger than her. This trait manifests itself all over the series.Comes across as peevishness.