Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[TristanWebb]

The DO is like a nuclear reactor. When it is working properly you get sweet sweet electricity from it, but when there is a breach it leaks out deadly radiation. Having the DO exist is vital for the pattern to work, otherwise you don't get the negative emotions like greed and anger that are required for the world to advance, but letting him out to touch the world makes these things detrimental. Everything in balance.

 

Though, personally, I really dislike these kinds of morality tales, they are far too cliche and RJ did a pretty good job of distancing WoT from standard fantasy tropes. I would of rather Rand simply not be able to kill the DO rather than choosing to let him live, or perhaps that the DO is a requirement of the pattern and destroying him destroys everything instead of destroying him makes everything less interesting.

[Erdrick]

 

 

 

Frankly, I don't believe in this Hollow nonsense, Rand should have destroyed Shai'tan. Either Shai'tan pulled a fast one or it does not make sense.

 

Evil existed when Shai'tan was locked up. Semirhage was corrupt to the bone according to all the Forsaken, prior to the Bore opening. So they must have had serial killers, murderers, rapists etc back in AoL before the Bore.

 

Creator takes "no part", wouldn't that make the humans "Hollow" as well, since the Light side of the Force is absent???

However, the two antitheses are made up of of pure chaos and evil, and pure order and goodness. Their entities are completely made up of these things. Although the Creator may take no part in human action, he can still be present in the pattern for influence upon human attitude. He did create the Dragon as the pattern's check, remember. Shai'tan's being locked up is different than being destroyed. He can still be comprised of pure evil, but if that is eliminated, then it changes people's personality's, similar to Turning.

That's where I call BS.

 

This ambiguous and ill-defined "inflence" that the Creator seems to always have had, and that the DO seems to have even beyond being "sealed" has never been mentioned before until the end of AMoL. It has no place organically in the rest of the series.

 

Further, what kind of free will is it really when it actually depends on the "influence" of the DO and, presumably but it never was stated, the Creator as well??? That's not free will at all, it's effects of the Creator and DO manifested through people. Silly.

 

Terribly conceived final showdown, and if RJ wrote every letter of it I'd say so again.

I'm right there with you jjp. It's crap juvenile philosophy, made even less credible by a rather glaring in-world counterexample (namely Fain/Mordeth).

[jack of shadows]

@auto,

i don't believe rand is in the world of dreams in the last scene,because in addition

to rand's point of view we also have min's and cadsuane's:

min:"now...aviendha said." "now we make sure that everyone well and truly believes

he is gone."

min nodded,feeling the pulsing throb of the bond in the back of her mind.it grew

stronger each moment.

and another one from cadsuane:"those eyes had confirmed her suspicions".

"no need to keep watching this sham of a funeral ,then."

and a little earlier we have nynaeve's suspicions:

"no,nynaeve thought,studying min and elayne,those three know something i do not.

i'll have to beat it out of them."(so delightfully true to her character hahaha).

in my opinion,rand is alive and well in the real world.

[Jaglover]

I too would have appreciated a more extended epilogue after the length of the series.

 

However I do note that in the only vision of the future we have seen (Aviendha's vision), both her and Elayne are not around mere decades after the last battle.

 

The logical implication is that by then both have reunited with Rand and are living out their lives in peace.

 

The fact that the Aiel are destroyed by the Seanchen in that path of the future would also indicate that despite Rand's abilities (I believe he is not 'burned out' but has access to a higher power) he has no intention of interfering in the world's affairs any longer.

[Auto]

Jack of shadows,

Good points, I guess I can throw that part of my theory out. However I do believe that there is something to the fact that he lit the pipe by imagining that it should be lit, which is exactly how the world of dreams is manipulated. I think that Rand now has a higher understanding of the world and universe which allows him to see that the real world is really just another world of dreams. I guess it's a semantical argument, fact is he can seemingly now manipulate the "real world" the same way that the world of dreams can be manipulated

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

 

 

 

Frankly, I don't believe in this Hollow nonsense, Rand should have destroyed Shai'tan. Either Shai'tan pulled a fast one or it does not make sense.

 

Evil existed when Shai'tan was locked up. Semirhage was corrupt to the bone according to all the Forsaken, prior to the Bore opening. So they must have had serial killers, murderers, rapists etc back in AoL before the Bore.

 

Creator takes "no part", wouldn't that make the humans "Hollow" as well, since the Light side of the Force is absent???

However, the two antitheses are made up of of pure chaos and evil, and pure order and goodness. Their entities are completely made up of these things. Although the Creator may take no part in human action, he can still be present in the pattern for influence upon human attitude. He did create the Dragon as the pattern's check, remember. Shai'tan's being locked up is different than being destroyed. He can still be comprised of pure evil, but if that is eliminated, then it changes people's personality's, similar to Turning.

That's where I call BS.

 

This ambiguous and ill-defined "inflence" that the Creator seems to always have had, and that the DO seems to have even beyond being "sealed" has never been mentioned before until the end of AMoL. It has no place organically in the rest of the series.

 

Further, what kind of free will is it really when it actually depends on the "influence" of the DO and, presumably but it never was stated, the Creator as well??? That's not free will at all, it's effects of the Creator and DO manifested through people. Silly.

 

Terribly conceived final showdown, and if RJ wrote every letter of it I'd say so again.

 

It is important to acknowledge that the fantastical Wheel of Time Universe is fundamentally different from our own. It is a universe that was expressly created by an original deity who formed a co-deity to manage it with him. That is an intensely spiritual universe. The idea that the human "free will" is somehow reliant on a struggle between the two deities isn't so strange in that universe. I suppose you could have some sort of "free will" that required the raw input of both the DO and Creator's energy. Maybe not.  Anyway, it's actually harder to prove free will in a purely materialistic universe with no deity. Everything would be completely mathematically determined by the initial state of things in an atheistic universe.

 

There is really only one huge problem with Rand's opinion that that DO is necessary for free will. The problem is Padan Fain. He was supposed to be a purely human evil, independent of the DO. It is very difficult to reconcile that with a dualistic universe. In fact, it seems to be evidence that the DO is unnecessary. I guess the author could explain it away by stating that Padan Fain's evil could not exist without the DO, even though the DO could not control him. Maybe?

[Suttree]

It is important to acknowledge that the fantastical Wheel of Time Universe if fundamentally different from our own. It is a universe that was expressly created by an original deity who formed a co-deity to manage it with him.

There is nothing anywhere to suggest the DO was made by the Creator. In fact that contradicts what RJ has told us.

 

As for Fain:

 

Interview: Nov 21st, 2009

Driving Mr. Sanderson - Matt Hatch

Matt Hatch

Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"...

 

Brandon Sanderson

He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get...

 

Matt Hatch

..previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

 

Brandon Sanderson

...Yeah...

 

Matt Hatch

...before he went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it [...] He originally was good. He did not...he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than...there are other evils things that are old in a similar way...

 

Matt Hatch

...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

 

Brandon Sanderson

He did.

 

Matt Hatch

He found one or multiple?

 

Brandon Sanderson

He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into...when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

 

Matt Hatch

Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

 

MATT HATCH

[Hah—Maybe I should have asked if Mordeth was under the influence of the Finns...or at the very least if they were one of the powers he found in his quest... ]

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

 

It is important to acknowledge that the fantastical Wheel of Time Universe if fundamentally different from our own. It is a universe that was expressly created by an original deity who formed a co-deity to manage it with him.

There is nothing anywhere to suggest the DO was made by the Creator. In fact that contradicts what RJ has told us.

 

According to the WoT Wiki, the Creator made the Dark One. http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Creator

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

It is important to acknowledge that the fantastical Wheel of Time Universe if fundamentally different from our own. It is a universe that was expressly created by an original deity who formed a co-deity to manage it with him.

There is nothing anywhere to suggest the DO was made by the Creator. In fact that contradicts what RJ has told us.

According to the WoT Wiki, the Creator made the Dark One. http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Creator

The Wiki is not and has never been an accepted source. Far too many mistakes and assumptions, so unless they cite their own source for the info it really doesn't mean much.

 

The closest we have to an answer on this is:

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

I'm guessing RJ would have mentioned it here don't you think?

 

Edit: The wiki doesn't say that.

Wiki

It is unclear if The Creator also created the Dark One;

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

I stand corrected, Suttree. I think the general theme of my post is still sound, despite the unfortunate error regarding the Dark One's origin.

[jjp]

Wow, great info Suttree. So now we have Brandon actually saying there is evil not directly related to the DO.

 

I am just going to give up trying to make sense of this.

[jack of shadows]

@jjp,

"so now we have brandon sanderson actually saying there is evil not directly related to the do."

you must have known for a long time that not all the evil in randland is connected to the dark one.

the people of aridhol fought shadow with different kind of shadow.

rand's unhealing wounds is a manifestation of the war between shadar logoth and the do.

damer flinn told the aes sedai that the wounds in rand's body seen to fight each other.

well,unless you're being sarcastic and i'm pushing at an open door hahaha.

my sincere apologies if that's the case.

[shortkut]

Wow, great info Suttree. So now we have Brandon actually saying there is evil not directly related to the DO.

 

I am just going to give up trying to make sense of this.

do you not realize that indirectly related is still related?

[jjp]

Sure, but if the "source" is all from the DO, as is put forth at the end of AMoL, then is that not as directly related as you can get?

 

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

The fact that this was so hyped up by Rand telling everyone how he was going to kill the DO is what grates, because the reason he decided not to is something that not only has never been touched on previously, we've had plenty of reason to believe otherwise.

 

I'm not upset at the idea, but at the total disconnect between that idea and everything that came before it.

 

Turns out the Creator didn't even create free will, and nobody has it without help from the DO. Which means it isn't really free will if it depends on influence from outside sources.

 

Rand in VOG rediscovered "love" and THAT was the crux of the setup - the DO offered none and Moridin as foil had none. The free will thing didn't fit the dynamic that was being laid out at all.

 

When you think about it now, Moridin was right. They are all pawns, and any "choices" they think they have are only fueled by nebulous "influence" from the DO and presumably the Creator.

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

Sure, but if the "source" is all from the DO, as is put forth at the end of AMoL, then is that not as directly related as you can get?

 

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

The fact that this was so hyped up by Rand telling everyone how he was going to kill the DO is what grates, because the reason he decided not to is something that not only has never been touched on previously, we've had plenty of reason to believe otherwise.

 

I'm not upset at the idea, but at the total disconnect between that idea and everything that came before it.

 

Turns out the Creator didn't even create free will, and nobody has it without help from the DO. Which means it isn't really free will if it depends on influence from outside sources.

 

Rand in VOG rediscovered "love" and THAT was the crux of the setup - the DO offered none and Moridin as foil had none. The free will thing didn't fit the dynamic that was being laid out at all.

 

When you think about it now, Moridin was right. They are all pawns, and any "choices" they think they have are only fueled by nebulous "influence" from the DO and presumably the Creator.

 

The sad thing is that free will is probably impossible in our universe because everything is either (A) mathematically determined by the initial state of the Universe, or (B) the result of random quantum fluctuations. Neither one of those things seems like the sort of "free will" to choose that people talk about. The people in Rand's universe might have more "free will" than we do unless there is some sort of religious force that changes the equation. Free will seems to require a deity.

[jack of shadows]

@jjp,

"rand in vog rediscovered "love" and that was the crux of the set up-the do offered none

and moridin as foil had none".

hear hear.

you summed one of the most amazing scenes in the wheel of time series up beautifully.kudos!!!

omnia vincit amor,cliche or not,love is a very powerful motive,and i'm glad rand rediscovered it

before the last battle.(well it took him long enough!)

those small scenes when rand gave presents to his loved ones really touched my heart.

[Agitel]

Sure, but if the "source" is all from the DO, as is put forth at the end of AMoL, then is that not as directly related as you can get?

 

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

The fact that this was so hyped up by Rand telling everyone how he was going to kill the DO is what grates, because the reason he decided not to is something that not only has never been touched on previously, we've had plenty of reason to believe otherwise.

 

I'm not upset at the idea, but at the total disconnect between that idea and everything that came before it.

 

Turns out the Creator didn't even create free will, and nobody has it without help from the DO. Which means it isn't really free will if it depends on influence from outside sources.

 

Rand in VOG rediscovered "love" and THAT was the crux of the setup - the DO offered none and Moridin as foil had none. The free will thing didn't fit the dynamic that was being laid out at all.

 

When you think about it now, Moridin was right. They are all pawns, and any "choices" they think they have are only fueled by nebulous "influence" from the DO and presumably the Creator.

 

The whole thing fits thematically with the rest of the series, especially with Perrin's inner struggle over the necessity of violence and the Tinkers. It fits with the whole theme of balance that's been present in every arc and stretched throughout the series. There's no disconnect.

 

And the way you phrase it, you keep implying that the Dark One and the Creator are pulling the strings from outside the Pattern.

[Cybertrolloc]

The sad thing is that free will is probably impossible in our universe

because everything is either (A) mathematically determined by the

initial state of the Universe, or (B) the result of random quantum

fluctuations. Neither one of those things seems like the sort of "free

will" to choose that people talk about. The people in Rand's universe

might have more "free will" than we do unless there is some sort of

religious force that changes the equation. Free will seems to require a

deity.

Sure, if you restrict yourself to early 20th century science (or earlier, which WoT does). These are of course open questions, but a model that doesn't allow free will for us would probably be horribly flawed in other ways too.

[jjp]

 

Sure, but if the "source" is all from the DO, as is put forth at the end of AMoL, then is that not as directly related as you can get?

 

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

The fact that this was so hyped up by Rand telling everyone how he was going to kill the DO is what grates, because the reason he decided not to is something that not only has never been touched on previously, we've had plenty of reason to believe otherwise.

 

I'm not upset at the idea, but at the total disconnect between that idea and everything that came before it.

 

Turns out the Creator didn't even create free will, and nobody has it without help from the DO. Which means it isn't really free will if it depends on influence from outside sources.

 

Rand in VOG rediscovered "love" and THAT was the crux of the setup - the DO offered none and Moridin as foil had none. The free will thing didn't fit the dynamic that was being laid out at all.

 

When you think about it now, Moridin was right. They are all pawns, and any "choices" they think they have are only fueled by nebulous "influence" from the DO and presumably the Creator.

 

The whole thing fits thematically with the rest of the series, especially with Perrin's inner struggle over the necessity of violence and the Tinkers. It fits with the whole theme of balance that's been present in every arc and stretched throughout the series. There's no disconnect.

 

And the way you phrase it, you keep implying that the Dark One and the Creator are pulling the strings from outside the Pattern.

 

Well, to your first point, it there was a big reveal at the end of the book that the DO had a wife and the Creator had a wife, and they both like to crochet, and that it was actually a struggle between the wives of the DO and the Creator who were in a battle of knitting the Pattern together, THAT would fit "thematically" with the theme of "balance" in the series. Just because something follows an established theme doesn't mean that it makes any kind of sense with the in-story universe as it's previously been described.

 

And to your second point, I'm phrasing it that way because that's exactly what is revealed in AMoL. Rand let the DO live because the DO somehow projects "evil" into the souls of every person. If the DO dies, as we saw, this element of evil is removed and people aren't able to choose their fates, and in a sense become "Turned" for the Light.

 

How would you explain that without the DO having influence over people's choices from outside the Pattern?

[jack of shadows]

@jjp,

as a matter of curiosity,let's just say that you are going to rewrite the last battle

between the dark one and rand,what would you do differently?

[Erdrick]

Consider the following (2003) quote from RJ, discussing the struggle between Light and Shadow:
"This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it."
Here's where I agree with Ishamael's logic: if there is some finite possibility of the DO achieving ultimate victory, then (unless there is also a possible ultimate victory for the Light) sooner or later the DO will win. Unless the world can be shifted off this axle of endless repetition, the DO will eventually succeed in his goal of unraveling all that is, was and will be.

I like the way RJ mixes in things from different cultures and traditions. Some cultures have a cyclic view of time, interestingly, often with their goal being eventual liberation from that endless cycle (cf "moksha" or "nibbana"). Other cultures have a more linear sense of time, where progress and possibilities are as open as we can make them. There have been countless turnings of the Wheel of Time. The particular one I was hoping we were reading about is that unique and final turning, where the Wheel is hopped off its axle and transitions into a more linear progression of time. I enjoyed this final book, but cannot escape a mild sense of "here we go again" hopelessness at the end.

Scrap all that nonsense about needing evil to have some form of positive existence for people to have free will. You can have all degrees of relative darkness (which is just the relative absence of light) without needing the existence of an evil deity bent on erasing all of existence. People have different levels of honor, courage, integrity, knowledge, etc. You do not need a "Satan" type figure for people to have misplaced values, be self-centered, power-seeking, cruel, or have various other mental deficiencies. You can even keep the more fantasy genre type evil forces, like the powers Mordeth discovered that were an evil independent of the DO.

 

So, jack of shadows, you ask for an alternate ending...how about this: Rand figures out how to effectively "kill" the DO. Due to unique circumstances of this turning of the Wheel, Rand is in a position to permanently sever the DO from the pattern, say by knocking the Wheel of Time off its axle and leaving the DO in the dust (so to speak). Time marches on, and there will always be a struggle between right and wrong, but the future is now open wide to patterns of endless possibilities.

 

Reread the following excerpt from TGH (chapter 15):
"I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin...This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold."
This is what I was hoping for. Once again I found myself agreeing with Ishamael.
 

[jjp]

@jjp,

as a matter of curiosity,let's just say that you are going to rewrite the last battle

between the dark one and rand,what would you do differently?

I have no idea. It's not my story, not my world. I was anticipating the end game since even before Herid Fel became a piece of the puzzle. Heck since the prologue to TEoTW all those years ago, I was waiting to see how it would play out... all of Rand's encounters with Baalzamon, thinking it was over in tGH.... I was eating it up.

 

No clue how I would write the epic showdown for the whole series. I guess one thing I do know is that I would make sure that it would be able to, if not live up to the hype, at least stand up to cursory examination.

[jjp]

So, jack of shadows, you ask for an alternate ending...how about this: Rand figures out how to effectively "kill" the DO. Due to unique circumstances of this turning of the Wheel, Rand is in a position to permanently sever the DO from the pattern, say by knocking the Wheel of Time off its axle and leaving the DO in the dust (so to speak). Time marches on, and there will always be a struggle between right and wrong, but the future is now open wide to patterns of endless possibilities.

 

Reread the following excerpt from TGH (chapter 15):

"I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin...This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold."

This is what I was hoping for. Once again I found myself agreeing with Ishamael.

 

That is what I originally thought would happen (Rand kills/defeats DO, breaks Wheel and time becomes linear and the world sinks or swims on its own, shaped how people and - Ogier!! - would have it be shaped)... and I was lucky enough to ask RJ about it. He shot it down at the time which only increased my curiosity.

 

I honestly would be amazed if he wrote Rand and DO's encounter. I can handle continuity errors or out-of-character portrayals, etc. But this was too big to bungle imo.

[TristanWebb]

It doesn't fit thematically with WoT unless you force it though. The balance in WoT isn't about a blend of good and evil, it is about opposite forces pushing down on each side of the scales. Saidin and Saidar are equal but cannot touch. Men and women always at odds. A man unhurt after falling out of a 3rd story window countered by one who dies by catching his scarf on a nail. On average there is a balance but all specific events are strongly one or the other. From that point of view, the idea that the DO is needed to make all people behave like people is completely out of sync with the rest of the story.

 

As for rewriting, I would of had Rand attempting to kill the DO and the DO himself sealing the prison rather than being killed, willing to wait for another turning for a chance at freedom. That fits with the balanced but opposite theme. Rand willing to sacrifice himself to save the world, the DO not willing to do the same for freedom.

[Erdrick]

BenevolentCow, your post actually highlights for me one of the primary sources of that feeling of hopelessness that I've been having trouble getting my finger on. Your post helped me realize that it's not just the cyclic repetition that bothers me, but also that sense of "balance" like there can only be so much good in the world. What's the point of doing good deeds if that just means the pattern will eventually "balance" it out by making something crappy happen to someone else down the line.

Thematically, WoT is about blending and merging various aspects of our present world. Wouldn't the scenario I presented in my previous post do just that? Remember, in those cyclic world views (like in Hinduism or Buddhism) the ultimate goal is to break free from that cycle ("moksha" and "mukti" translate as "liberation" and "release", while "nibbana" means "extinguishing"). So, rather than being the tale of just one more turning of the Wheel, why not have it about the unique turning where the WoT universe breaks free from the confines of pointless repetition and so-called balance.

To say that does not fit thematically doesn't make sense to me. It's like reading a book where the heroes lose (or draw) over and over again, but when they finally triumph at the end, you say "hey, that doesn't fit thematically!" The alternate ending I suggested (in response to jack of shadows) would work well with what Ishamael said in TGH, that I quoted at the bottom of my previous post. Not only would that have been brilliant foreshadowing, but it also fits perfectly with the theme of predictions coming true, but not always in the way the speaker intends. I'll quote him again here:

 

"I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin...This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold."