Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[mcbernier]

My thoughts on the "body switch" thingy. Isn't Moridin they guy who craves oblivion? Doesn't he want to completely cease to exist? So, maybe that's what happened. Maybe Rand helped him, mercifully, into oblivion, and his soul was snipped from the pattern (or something). His body then became "available" to Rand. And wasn't it already established that there was some kind of strange link between Rand and Moridin, so that we don't need to appeal to a warder bond between them to explain Rand switching bodies? If Rand had in that moment the power to kill the DO, this doesn't seem like it would be more difficult. He showed mercy to Moridin by not just killing him, but giving him what he wanted. When the body was emptied, Rand then slipped in. This would help to explain Moridin's arc a bit (that he craved oblivion, and it was finally given to him). 

[9kindsofidiot]

I haven't had the chance to read this whole topic, so I'm sorry if someone has already brought this up. I've been thinking about the body swap and how it might have occurred.

 

With the Horn being sounded at Shayol Ghul, TAR and reality became one. In fact, even before it was sounded from Perrin's perspective we see Rand/Moridin/Nynaeve/Moiraine in TAR and reality from Thom's view confirming the thinness of the Pattern there.

 

I'm not saying the Horn had anything to do with it, but I can't rule it out. In any case, the key is the blending of TAR and reality. With the Bore sealed moments before the swap occurs, this blending should have been receding. This is where I think the Horn was needed to help keep that link until the swap could be completed.

 

We have seen it possible with Slayer when he steps out of TAR into reality he has the opportunity to switch souls. So as Rand climbs out of the Pit the Aiel woman says "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do" (AMOL, pg 892), Rand is performing the soul swapping as she disappears (her form retreated) because Rand is leaving TAR for Moridin's body and vice versa.

[jack of shadows]

as a way of saying goodbye,rand gave his loved one gifts,

he gave lan and nynaeve crowns,tam got a sword,elayne a ter'angreal seed and moiraine

a tar valon coin.

is cadsuane off screen remark about giving aviendha and min jewelry the only place it is

mentioned in the book?did i miss the actual act of giving gifts to them?

by the way,i laughed my head off when cadsuane asked rand if he is going to give her a gift,

and he basically told her to f**k off!!!! hahahaha.

[Pinzarn]

I like to go with the other theory on the forums. That Rand can now touch the true source so does not need Saiden or Saidar.Basically the OP is used to mainipulate the pattern using the 5 elements.If you do not need the tool which is Saidin or Saidar and can directly touch the true source then what is the point of having ability to use OP?

 

My theory is that this is just one of the open ended things that Jordan wanted to end the series with.  I believe that Jordan didn't even have an answer for this.  He just wrote it that way, and we are a left to noodle it.

[Suttree]

aby the way,i laughed my head off when cadsuane asked rand if he is going to give her a gift,

and he basically told her to f**k off!!!! hahahaha.

Yeah hilarious, the person who saved his life, rescued him from being shipped back to Elaida, directed a perfect defense in allowing the taint to be cleansed and whoe actions lead to his epiphany on DM(just to name some of what she has been up to) surely doesn't deserve crap. She has had as back as hard, if not harder than anyone in the story but she was a big "meanie" to to the DR so none of it counts.

[MauricXe]

as a way of saying goodbye,rand gave his loved one gifts,

he gave lan and nynaeve crowns,tam got a sword,elayne a ter'angreal seed and moiraine

a tar valon coin.

is cadsuane off screen remark about giving aviendha and min jewelry the only place it is

mentioned in the book?did i miss the actual act of giving gifts to them?

by the way,i laughed my head off when cadsuane asked rand if he is going to give her a gift,

and he basically told her to f**k off!!!! hahahaha.

 

 

LMAO! funny indeed. 

 

he gave min something? I don't remember that part

[MauricXe]

I haven't had the chance to read this whole topic, so I'm sorry if someone has already brought this up. I've been thinking about the body swap and how it might have occurred.

 

With the Horn being sounded at Shayol Ghul, TAR and reality became one. In fact, even before it was sounded from Perrin's perspective we see Rand/Moridin/Nynaeve/Moiraine in TAR and reality from Thom's view confirming the thinness of the Pattern there.

 

I'm not saying the Horn had anything to do with it, but I can't rule it out. In any case, the key is the blending of TAR and reality. With the Bore sealed moments before the swap occurs, this blending should have been receding. This is where I think the Horn was needed to help keep that link until the swap could be completed.

 

We have seen it possible with Slayer when he steps out of TAR into reality he has the opportunity to switch souls. So as Rand climbs out of the Pit the Aiel woman says "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do" (AMOL, pg 892), Rand is performing the soul swapping as she disappears (her form retreated) because Rand is leaving TAR for Moridin's body and vice versa.

 

 

I like this theory

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

he didn't give anything to Bashere or Rhuarc either.... at least that we know. He only gave things to incredibly close friends and lovers. It has nothing to do with being a meanie.

[Hagazussa]

I have not had the time to read the entire thread just wanted to jump in with a few opinions and questions. I like that Rand did not kill the Dark One and I do get the reasoning. In a way the Dark One and the Creator are personifications of the concepts of good and evil, creation and destruction, killing one means then removing that aspect from the world which would get rid of people's free will. The way I understand it the Dark One is not just an evil God, and get rid of him people can still choose to murder, hurt and betray one another, in a way the Dark One is the personification of evil so killing him would remove evil from the world so no one would have those impulses anymore. I think it was a good way to do it and it fit the dualistic nature of the setting. Also if Rand had killed the Dark One that means he would not have returned, there would not have been a new second age and a new third age and the cycle would have stopped, now that might have been a good outcome over all, but symbolically it would not have fit with the story I think.

 

One thing I did sort of not like is how Rand at the end do not resolve his love life, I would have preferred it if he had ended up with all three of his women and the ending there feels a bit like all those 80's and 90's TV series which have characters who almost end up in gay relationships but the producers do not dare to completely go there, but then he do decide he would be with whoever actually did follow him so I guess this ending is not to bad.

 

I really love how at the end the series felt like it had come full cycle, that was very well written and evoked allot of emotions, it was a great ending and made the story feel very complete. I can completely see Rand choosing to just wanted off into obscurity once his task was done and just spend his days wandering the world, the ending felt like allot off the negative things that he had become had been washed away and he was back to being this good hearted, adventurous, farm kid who just wanted the simple pleasures of life and to live simply and well, he very much was back to where he started but with allot more experience and wisdom, and that did feel like a good way to end his story.

 

Now one thing I do not get is why would Rand not be able to channel after the body swap? Channeling ability follows the soul and every other character who have gotten a new body have kept their abilities so why not Rand. Also why would Rand just be relieved that he can not channel anymore, I get that he have always seen his abilities as a burden but so would about every male channeler for the last 3000 years that have not stopped them from being devastated if they lost those abilities. Now I do get that Rand is a bit of a special case, he have that strange, unexplained ability as we see he use to light his pipe and in many ways he have become a Deity in the flesh, but still even if he is relieved that he no longer have the burden of leadership or a destiny which I get, why would he not feel any loss over his channeling abilities?

[Suttree]

he didn't give anything to Bashere or Rhuarc either.... at least that we know. He only gave things to incredibly close friends and lovers. It has nothing to do with being a meanie.

It was just a joke pointed at who are biased towards Cads. Not a serious reply...I've actually seen it repeatedly stated that Cadsuane never did anything for him and always was out for herself believe it or not.

[shortkut]

 rescued him from being shipped back to Elaida.

when was he being shipped back besides the DW incident?  i don't recall Cads being involved in that, but i only started my pre aMoL reread at KoD so i could be misremembering

[Erdrick]

I just want to toss in my opinion that I was disappointed with the whole Rand not killing the DO, and the crap philosophy behind it. Not having a positive source of evil (periodically threatening all of existence) does not preclude having evil exist as a lacking or imperfection (e.g. degrees of darkness as the relative absence of light, not having a positive existence of its own; ignorance as the absence of knowledge; cruelty resulting from a lack of empathy or some mental disorder; etc). Satan does not have to exist for this world to have "evil" people.

 

And as a within-text contradiction to the DO free world that Rand spun, didn't Mordeth/Fain create an evil independent of the DO. I was really looking forward to the breaking of the wheel, and this being the tale of the unique point where cyclical time broke free to a linear progression full of open possibilities and potential. Oh well, it's RJ's story and not mine, so I should just be grateful for the ride.
 

[9kindsofidiot]

 

I haven't had the chance to read this whole topic, so I'm sorry if someone has already brought this up. I've been thinking about the body swap and how it might have occurred.

 

With the Horn being sounded at Shayol Ghul, TAR and reality became one. In fact, even before it was sounded from Perrin's perspective we see Rand/Moridin/Nynaeve/Moiraine in TAR and reality from Thom's view confirming the thinness of the Pattern there.

 

I'm not saying the Horn had anything to do with it, but I can't rule it out. In any case, the key is the blending of TAR and reality. With the Bore sealed moments before the swap occurs, this blending should have been receding. This is where I think the Horn was needed to help keep that link until the swap could be completed.

 

We have seen it possible with Slayer when he steps out of TAR into reality he has the opportunity to switch souls. So as Rand climbs out of the Pit the Aiel woman says "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do" (AMOL, pg 892), Rand is performing the soul swapping as she disappears (her form retreated) because Rand is leaving TAR for Moridin's body and vice versa.

 

 

I like this theory

 

Thanks! I've had a few more thoughts.

 

There is still the question of how Rand knows how to do it. But I've done more research and found where Perrin figures out how to duplicate how Slayer jumps between TAR and reality (page 615). All Perrin has to do is "awaken" to return to reality. It is likely LTT would have known that half of it. And Rand possibly figured out the body swap part through the Aelfinn question and the link between him and Moridin. His whispering about that very question indicates he was definitely thinking about it at that time.

 

To put it simly, he has to awaken his soul from Moridin's side of the link. I have a feeling the "Shouting" and Rand feeling heavy is a clue to all of this.

 

I also think this provides more evidence, albeit circumstantial, for the Aiel woman (Nakomi) to be the Creator's proxy. There is some indication her visit to Aviendha in TOM happened in TAR (channeling without the True Souce, disappearing without sound). And the wording "her form retreated" and not "she walked away" at the end suggests that scene was in TAR as well.

 

Also, with Rand performing the body swap, it can be stated more definitely that the Creator took no action in the world. All he/she did was coach Rand and Aviendha and they both figured out the rest.

[Suttree]

 

 rescued him from being shipped back to Elaida.

when was he being shipped back besides the DW incident?  i don't recall Cads being involved in that, but i only started my pre aMoL reread at KoD so i could be misremembering

When he was captured and in the dungeons in Far Madding during Winters Heart. Aleis and the Hall of Counsels planned to send him to Elaida.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

 

he didn't give anything to Bashere or Rhuarc either.... at least that we know. He only gave things to incredibly close friends and lovers. It has nothing to do with being a meanie.

It was just a joke pointed at who are biased towards Cads. Not a serious reply...I've actually seen it repeatedly stated that Cadsuane never did anything for him and always was out for herself believe it or not.

 

I'm not a Cads fan but she did for him for sure. I just think she's a hypocrite. But, she most certainly did what she thought was necessary - whether right or wrong - to see him ready to defeat the DO.

[Hagazussa]

I just want to toss in my opinion that I was disappointed with the whole

Rand not killing the DO, and the crap philosophy behind it. Not having a

positive source of evil (periodically threatening all of existence)

does not preclude having evil exist as a lacking or imperfection (e.g.

degrees of darkness as the relative absence of light, not having a

positive existence of its own; ignorance as the absence of knowledge;

cruelty resulting from a lack of empathy or some mental disorder; etc).

Satan does not have to exist for this world to have "evil" people.

 

Okey here is where metaphysics comes into the picture. Now yes with the Dark One dead that would not prevent someone from going over the edge and ending up killing someone, or accidents or general bad things to happen, however the way I understand it evil in the Wheel of Time is the Shadow, the Dark One is a personification of said evil. Think of it in terms of the ancient Egyptian Gods, they where personifications of a given principle. Maat was the personification of balance and justice, she was not just a Deity that represented these qualities, she is these quality so no Maat, no justice and no balance. In Wheel of Time evil is the Dark One so if he dies then while someone could go insane and kill someone and you could hurt someone out of ignorance or by accident, the option to choose evil is gone.

 

Now do I agree with this, no, I do not believe in an absolute good and an absolute evil I think these concepts are constructs of the individual mind according to the morality we follow, however you have to look at it in the context of this fictional world where there are ultimate good vs ultimate evil, and as such if you kill the personification of ultimate evil you kill evil itself. Now if the Dark One died then  no one would be able to choose to kill their brother to inherit his fortune, they would no longer be able to choose to leave a starving child alone on the street, for the concept would no longer exist. It would be as if someone removed the concept dance from reality, no one would discover dance, no one would do it, no one would think about it, the concept just would not exist.

[Jtric]

 

Ok, more about the pipe finish here. I know Sanderson has said RJ didn't explain how Rand lit the pipe at the end of the book, and I accept that, but I was wondering if Rand did anything himself at all. Is it possible Elayne or Aviendha feel his desire for a smoke and light his pipe with the one power?

I truly hope this is not the case, but I haven't seen anything saying otherwise. I would hope Sanderson could at least clarify this possibility unless I'm missing something.

Jtric

 

The bond does not work like that.They cannot sense that he needs a light unless he was absolutely panicked about the need for a light!!

 

The double bond on the other hand I think can work telepathically.

I was thinking the telepathic bond situation, but I just didn't want the possibility that Rand was dependant on his wives in such a way. Plus, the fact that hey were looking at him after the pipe was lit made me think it was connected somehow.

 

Jtric

[MauricXe]

 

 

 

To put it simly, he has to awaken his soul from Moridin's side of the link. I have a feeling the "Shouting" and Rand feeling heavy is a clue to all of this.

 

 

what exactly is the shouting for?

 

The feeling heavy bit is good because the body Rand carried was heavy.

[cyribis]

My thoughts: 1. I agree with the decision to reforge the bore. The whole book gave too much emphasis on "turning" a person into darkness, as if there's something missing in their eyes. One side of the equation is lost-that person had absolutely no access to the good side at all. A person will always have choice to act for good or evil; but a "turned" person doesn't have that option anymore. In Rand's vision of the world without the DO, he saw the same emptiness in the eyes of Elayne, and realized that if he killed the DO, it's as if he "turned" everyone alive to Good instead of the dark, choice being removed from the equation. 2. I was completely satisfied with how Rand left without telling anyone. He knows that the 3 know he'a alive. Cadsuand knowing is also appropriater, since she's the one who insisted that Rand should also believe that he's going to survive. Nynaeve will eventually figure it out (there's no chance of her giving up on that questions since it's hinted already that he's gonna go after the 3 girls until she finds out the truth), and thus so will Lan. Maybe somewhere along the line, even Tam and Moiraine (hey, he thought she was dead for a long while. payback's a bitch). As much as possible, Rand must let the rest of the world believe that he's dead. As buddhatanker pointed out, aside from Rand's personal reason of finally being free to explore and live his life, he also has to make sure that the Dragon's Peace is maintained. The moment the world knows he lives, they could consider the contract void, since the one thing that Rand offered as the consideration was not actually given: his life. 3. The lit pipe: creator powers or just an ability to shift the pattern? Either way, it's very powerful. And I like that he has it after all he went through. 4. And yes, I also think that by the start of the prologue, it was already Rand in Moridin's body carrying Rand's body with Moridin's dying soul inside. Hence the vagueness of the scene. And Flinn said that they "found them together", and he was only speculating when he said that "Rand must have carried him out of the pit." It was only the grey haired Aiel (Nakomi?) who actually saw Rand/Moridin coming otu of the pit. Obviously, I loved every part and arc of aMoL. Perfect ending, though, sadly, it IS an ending.

 

I think this is the closest to a summation of how I felt after reading that anyone has posted. I completely agree with reforging the bore, casting the DO away from the torn fabric and then sealing it anew. At first, I was a little sad to see Rand ride off into the sunset - but it's abundantly clear that Avienda, Elayne and Min (as well as Cadsuane) know he's alive. It's up to our imaginations when or if they reunite and experience a simpler life together. As for the body swap I also agree that it happened before we see Rand in Moridin's body carrying out Moridin in Rand's body as he's exiting the cave. I think that Nakomi's presence there either assists with the final step of the transition or perhaps just to say "yep - you're doing it right!" Lighting the impossible pipe as Rand rides away - I actually enjoyed that a good bit. He's seen how the universe works, wielded - not just separate elements of the OP, but the Light itself in reforging reality. After all of that, I tend to think that he can just will the Pattern to help him when needed. 

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

My thoughts on the "body switch" thingy. Isn't Moridin they guy who craves oblivion? Doesn't he want to completely cease to exist? So, maybe that's what happened. Maybe Rand helped him, mercifully, into oblivion, and his soul was snipped from the pattern (or something). His body then became "available" to Rand. And wasn't it already established that there was some kind of strange link between Rand and Moridin, so that we don't need to appeal to a warder bond between them to explain Rand switching bodies? If Rand had in that moment the power to kill the DO, this doesn't seem like it would be more difficult. He showed mercy to Moridin by not just killing him, but giving him what he wanted. When the body was emptied, Rand then slipped in. This would help to explain Moridin's arc a bit (that he craved oblivion, and it was finally given to him). 

I don't think just because Rand's body died with Moridin in it means that he was neccessarily snipped from the Pattern.

[9kindsofidiot]

 

 

 

 

To put it simly, he has to awaken his soul from Moridin's side of the link. I have a feeling the "Shouting" and Rand feeling heavy is a clue to all of this.

 

 

what exactly is the shouting for?

 

The feeling heavy bit is good because the body Rand carried was heavy.

 

The Shouting may be Rand willing himself to awaken or him and Moridin fighting for control of the only usable body left to both of them. Feeling heavy would be Rand settling into Moridin's body or coming out of TAR and into reality. Or both.

[Pinzarn]

I just skimmed the 22 pages, but here is a simple question:

 

Did Rand give to Tam "Justice"?

[Suttree]

I just skimmed the 22 pages, but here is a simple question:

 

Did Rand give to Tam "Justice"?

No, that was Laman's sword that was given to Rand by Avi.

[MauricXe]

 

I just skimmed the 22 pages, but here is a simple question:

 

Did Rand give to Tam "Justice"?

No, that was Laman's sword that was given to Rand by Avi.

 

I thought Rand wore Laman's sword inside the Pitt?

[Suttree]

 

 

I just skimmed the 22 pages, but here is a simple question:

 

Did Rand give to Tam "Justice"?

No, that was Laman's sword that was given to Rand by Avi.

 

I thought Rand wore Laman's sword inside the Pitt?

That was "justice".