Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Tasos Alexiadis]

I think one of the themes of the story was that a good respects the individuality and choices of every single person. A Good God/Creator leaves the running of the world to the world's members.

 

By following Rand's journey in Shayol Ghul, we see him reach the same point--through his spiritual battle with the Dark One. Rand has to respect the people choices to decide and battle for themselves. He cannot save them, they have to choose and save themselves first. Here Rand may be viewed as an anthropomorphism of the Creator (symbolically).

 

That is why he lets go, and that's what I think was Robert Jordan's point in the end, with Rand leaving everyone. He let go. That doesn't conflict with the fact that I think Rand will help people, in small ways, wherever he goes. As Nakomi did.

[Tasos Alexiadis]

 

 

When Elan made the bore, he was the first to touch the True Power, went instantly insane from the effect of the power, and his evil consciousness was imprinted on the True Power in the form of Shai'tan. Both exist together and separate simultaneously, not even fully understanding their interconnectedness.

 

I was just going to mention that Elan Morin didn't make the Bore... Lanfear (Meirin) and Beidomon (or something - someone else will remember his name) did.

Indeed Beidomon is correct. We have already been told by RJ that a number of things in Curtis' theory are incorrect.

Which things? That Moridin touched the True Power first?

[Elan Tedronai]

the way rand sealed the bore is just a little too much for my liking.

 

First of all the TP is the source of the dark one. How can you use the dark one's esence anyway without his permission?

 

Secondly how can saidin and saidar fix the bore?

 

Lanfear drilled a hole through the pattern. the dark one kept it open.

 

so the only way the bore can be closed is if the pattern is healed. I thought using saidin and saidar to heal it doesnt make any sense. Saidin was tried and it got tainted. We know from RJ that if saidar was used in war of power saidar would have been tainted too.

 

it just doesnt make any sense

[wRAR]

the way rand sealed the bore is just a little too much for my liking.

 

First of all the TP is the source of the dark one. How can you use the dark one's esence anyway without his permission?

 

Secondly how can saidin and saidar fix the bore?

 

Lanfear drilled a hole through the pattern. the dark one kept it open.

 

so the only way the bore can be closed is if the pattern is healed. I thought using saidin and saidar to heal it doesnt make any sense. Saidin was tried and it got tainted. We know from RJ that if saidar was used in war of power saidar would have been tainted too.

 

it just doesnt make any sense

TP was used because there was too much of it flowing that the DO couldn't do anything.

OP was used to heal/regrow/reforge the Pattern.

Saidin was tainted (and saidar would) because they touched the DO and now they didn't.

[XXX]

Well there is a line in the ending that the once Rand started to pull the TP from Moridin,the DO tried to stop it but the flow was too high. And Rand kind of pushes the DO back into the bore using his power and then recreated the pattern.Maybe the pattern was working through him at that point with the DO pushed it as that is one of his jobs as tavern.

[Elan Tedronai]

It makes sense for the pattern to be healed when the DO is not around the rupture point to interfere with it. That's what caused the AOL madness. But i dont get the too much cant stop line. I mean if we are to believe the DO is the source of TP then how can he NOT stop it's flow. It's like saying i cant stop water flowing from the tap water because there's too much water coming from it.

[megalomax]

The DO can only win by corrupting him, by convincing the Dragon to break the wheel, something even the DO can't do.

 

Given his strange reality bending of the pattern this theory fits better. Though I fail to see why he needs the Gold if he can will stuff to exist. Oh well we'll never know.

[XXX]

It makes sense for the pattern to be healed when the DO is not around the rupture point to interfere with it. That's what caused the AOL madness. But i dont get the too much cant stop line. I mean if we are to believe the DO is the source of TP then how can he NOT stop it's flow. It's like saying i cant stop water flowing from the tap water because there's too much water coming from it.

 

That depends,for a tap you are correct because the amount of water coming through is restricted by physical dimensions of the tap. If the amount is unrestricted then it could be diffuclt or impossibel depending on conditions.I buy the ending.What I do not buy is how the body swap happened.

[megalomax]

 

 

It makes sense for the pattern to be healed when the DO is not around the rupture point to interfere with it. That's what caused the AOL madness. But i dont get the too much cant stop line. I mean if we are to believe the DO is the source of TP then how can he NOT stop it's flow. It's like saying i cant stop water flowing from the tap water because there's too much water coming from it.

That depends,for a tap you are correct because the amount of water coming through is restricted by physical dimensions of the tap. If the amount is unrestricted then it could be diffuclt or impossibel depending on conditions.I buy the ending.What I do not buy is how the body swap happened.

I'm not sure but Nakomi was the urging someone. Probably, with the DO sealed I think his hold on the dead and swapped souls broke leaving behind the bodies such as Morridin's body. Moirraine kept her gaze on the two and saw light envelope both. We only know someone dragged someone out.

 

They tried healing Rand but they still felt him dying because probably Rand's soul wasn't in the anymore.

[Tasos Alexiadis]

I remember reading the foreshadowing of the body swap in one of Min's visions, as well as in a scene where Rand sees the face of Moridin in his mind and thinks if he can touch him they can merge... or something written to that effect.

[haplo333]

Rand thought of slaying the Dark One would be the wrong choice, however if it had been the true choice, would he have been able to slay him? Or endless war of visions continued until one of them wins?

[shortkut]

I was told to give my theory on the hook/pipe here.

 

From the interview where RJ said he would leave a hook, I always got the impression that the question he left was not something mundane like "is rand using a new power," even that seems to be what lost people think.

 

When Rand and the Dark One are playing simcity, the dark one shows a world where everyone thinks they won but didn't. In these worlds rand could control things by thought and force of will. We are also told that he cannot afford to let himself get drawn into them or they will become real. We also know that in TAR and dreamshards that force of will controls things.

 

Therefore I have two theories about what RJ wanted us to think:

 

1. Rand somehow merged TAR and the waking world to create his own dreamshard where he could imagine the DO sealed and SG blooming and he can light his pipe without the power

2. Rand is trapped in a world the DO won but wants them to think they did. Rand can still use his willpower but doesn't realize why because the DO wants Rand to think he won

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Anybody else love the fact that the "Dark One's" special power is the "TP"? When you think about it, how else could Rand take care of the Dark One without TP? :D

[Nae'blis]

 

 Perhaps I'm wrong but if that is true, why did it allow LTT to seal the bore improperly? 

It's simply the pattern of that age. Both RJ and Herid Fel told us this:

 

LoC Ch. 18

>> "Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

 

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

This is why it was always pretty ridiculous when people claimed that this was actually the "last battle".

 

 

 

Isn't there an innate contradiction between the idea of a Pattern and the concept of choice? So killing the Dark One would rid the Pattern of the ability to choose evil. So what? It already seems like the Pattern does most of the choosing for people anyways. After all, according to Fel, the Pattern had both the Bore and the improper sealing of the Dark One in it's plans. 

 

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction. 

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

 

 

 Perhaps I'm wrong but if that is true, why did it allow LTT to seal the bore improperly? 

It's simply the pattern of that age. Both RJ and Herid Fel told us this:

 

LoC Ch. 18

>>> "Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

lockquote>

 

> 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

This is why it was always pretty ridiculous when people claimed that this was actually the "last battle".

 

 

 

Isn't there an innate contradiction between the idea of a Pattern and the concept of choice? So killing the Dark One would rid the Pattern of the ability to choose evil. So what? It already seems like the Pattern does most of the choosing for people anyways. After all, according to Fel, the Pattern had both the Bore and the improper sealing of the Dark One in it's plans. 

 

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction. 

 

The book is just picking up on an age old question. Ask yourself the same thing in this world. Most people who are born poor stay poor, no matter how hard they work. Much of this world is born to starvation, war, and heartache. So where's the choice? However, many people believe in free will. Maybe, how you approach a problem or look at it is where free will comes in.

[Ninkharsag]

I am struck by how many people are stuck on the lighting of the pipe and the body swap.  Argued to death.  When I think of character arc I think of Rand in the two rivers waiting for Bel Tine and worried about dancing with Egwene.  Now a mere two years later he has climbed and been forced to power, come to terms with his dying, and excepted and faced his fate as a man.  He has experienced failure, torture, love, power, madness, and terrible loss.  He has emerged stronger, balanced, and accepting.  There is a lot of philosophical reasons and basis for this transformation many taken from the great works on enlightenment in our world.  We see many Buddhist, Christian, and Taoist ideals at work in Rand’s transformation from a boy sheering sheep into a man accepting his need to die to save an imperfect world.

 

His arc is epic.  He is a boy who is thrust into something he has been taught to fear his whole life.  He comes to grips with this and through all of the bad things that happen to him he manages to keep in mind the ideals he was raised by Tam to have.  He wants that small town ideal of safety and community to be left for all mankind.  He not only shows up at the last battle he has made the world ready to face it as well.  He became the true darkness and managed to turn around and lead people into the light.  The whole night is darkest before the dawn idea.

 

My biggest complaint on Rands character arc is that he was paralleled as more a hero character in the beginning like Arthur mixed with a little Fisher King and maybe a little bit savior, but in the end he was too much Christ like.  I felt it was a different ending for his person than I was lead to believe. .  He was supposed to be a simple kid who was called on to do an extraordinary thing, now many think he has become the creator himself or is dang close.  I thought he should have just stayed a man, an exceptional one, but not a god or proxy thereof. 

 

While I realize Rand had come so far from where he started I was disappointed we did not see him come a little more full circle.  He started this whole journey with friends; I would have liked to have seen him reconnect with them a little more as a completion of his journey.  They have all done so much and changed a lot since they became separated it would be like relying on strangers to do what you need to save the world.  I felt the connection between the three boys should have been reestablished for all of them not just Mat and Perrin. 

 

Overall Rand’s journey is definably one of the great ones.  It really explores the outer extremes of human loss and error yet able to find the way back and to keep on with life.  We all experience truly awful things and we can do some pretty awful things.  Some people wallow in those miseries and others find a way to work past them and rise from our darkest hours stronger and face what is coming next.  Rand’s arc is paralleled in a way in everyone’s life.  That is what made him a great relatable character that deserved our sympathy and our cheering.

[Ryrin]

While I was happy for Rand that he survived, it was hard for me to see him just ride away from everyone he loved, his father, his 3 women, his friends and children that he knew were to be born.

[megalomax]

the way rand sealed the bore is just a little too much for my liking.

 

First of all the TP is the source of the dark one. How can you use the dark one's esence anyway without his permission?

 

Secondly how can saidin and saidar fix the bore?

 

Lanfear drilled a hole through the pattern. the dark one kept it open.

 

so the only way the bore can be closed is if the pattern is healed. I thought using saidin and saidar to heal it doesnt make any sense. Saidin was tried and it got tainted. We know from RJ that if saidar was used in war of power saidar would have been tainted too.

 

it just doesnt make any sense

i think they used the flaw of Callandor on Morridin. It was Min who found the flaw.

 

Moridin tried using it to draw the TP to which Nynaeve and Moirraine used the flaw to force Moridin into a circle and then Rand joined in.

 

If the DO was able to use his TP to touch saidin and saidar he could have tainted them instead Rand wrapped saidin and saidar with TP drawn from Morridin so the DO couldn't manipulate it easily. The combined TP and OP was describe as pure light (with Morridin as buffer)

[Hondo]

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction. 

 

 

Are you claiming that Lanfear was "forced" to drill into the Bore and that this was the "right direction"?  

[KakitaOCU]

It makes sense for the pattern to be healed when the DO is not around the rupture point to interfere with it. That's what caused the AOL madness. But i dont get the too much cant stop line. I mean if we are to believe the DO is the source of TP then how can he NOT stop it's flow. It's like saying i cant stop water flowing from the tap water because there's too much water coming from it.

 

 

Think of it this way. 

 

Say you need to draw blood from yourself, you can draw a small amount with a needle or a small cut.  At that point you can easily stop the flow.  Which is how I see the DO's giving of his own essence to the chosen.  Thanks to Callandor's amplifier affect it went from a small cut or puncture to opening the vein entirely.  At that point, applying pressure doesn't fully stop the bleeding, not immediately.  It's even possible if that portion of the fight had lasted longer than a minute the DO could have eventually regained control, but in that moment it was too strong a burst to control.

 

If you want to stick the faucent analogy, you have a tap turned on.  Then someone breaks the valve off causing the water to spray.  You can turn it off, but you have to run out and turn it off from another source, you can no longer just turn the knob right there.

 

Neither are perfect analogies, but they make sense to me at least.

[Entretamis]

How and when does the soul transfer actually happen? i dont remember reading it. Who is walking out of the cave carrying who?

 

 

[afranson]

Rand appears to be lacking saidin, but filled with the power of the Creator still.  Will the land heal at his touch, still?  I think it might.  Perhaps that is what required his new appearance, the freedom to heal the land and bring the pattern back in balance.  The DO did a lot of damage before being sealed back up. 

[afranson]

I am struck by how many people are stuck on the lighting of the pipe and the body swap.  Argued to death.  When I think of character arc I think of Rand in the two rivers waiting for Bel Tine and worried about dancing with Egwene.  Now a mere two years later he has climbed and been forced to power, come to terms with his dying, and excepted and faced his fate as a man.  He has experienced failure, torture, love, power, madness, and terrible loss.  He has emerged stronger, balanced, and accepting.  There is a lot of philosophical reasons and basis for this transformation many taken from the great works on enlightenment in our world.  We see many Buddhist, Christian, and Taoist ideals at work in Rand’s transformation from a boy sheering sheep into a man accepting his need to die to save an imperfect world.

 

His arc is epic.  He is a boy who is thrust into something he has been taught to fear his whole life.  He comes to grips with this and through all of the bad things that happen to him he manages to keep in mind the ideals he was raised by Tam to have.  He wants that small town ideal of safety and community to be left for all mankind.  He not only shows up at the last battle he has made the world ready to face it as well.  He became the true darkness and managed to turn around and lead people into the light.  The whole night is darkest before the dawn idea.

 

My biggest complaint on Rands character arc is that he was paralleled as more a hero character in the beginning like Arthur mixed with a little Fisher King and maybe a little bit savior, but in the end he was too much Christ like.  I felt it was a different ending for his person than I was lead to believe. .  He was supposed to be a simple kid who was called on to do an extraordinary thing, now many think he has become the creator himself or is dang close.  I thought he should have just stayed a man, an exceptional one, but not a god or proxy thereof. 

 

While I realize Rand had come so far from where he started I was disappointed we did not see him come a little more full circle.  He started this whole journey with friends; I would have liked to have seen him reconnect with them a little more as a completion of his journey.  They have all done so much and changed a lot since they became separated it would be like relying on strangers to do what you need to save the world.  I felt the connection between the three boys should have been reestablished for all of them not just Mat and Perrin. 

 

Overall Rand’s journey is definably one of the great ones.  It really explores the outer extremes of human loss and error yet able to find the way back and to keep on with life.  We all experience truly awful things and we can do some pretty awful things.  Some people wallow in those miseries and others find a way to work past them and rise from our darkest hours stronger and face what is coming next.  Rand’s arc is paralleled in a way in everyone’s life.  That is what made him a great relatable character that deserved our sympathy and our cheering.

The open ending left it so any and all of these possibilities could occur.  The readers mind determines how life continued for our beloved friends in the Wheel of Time world.

[wRAR]

How and when does the soul transfer actually happen? i dont remember reading it. Who is walking out of the cave carrying who?

We don't know.

[Hondo]

 

How and when does the soul transfer actually happen? i dont remember reading it. Who is walking out of the cave carrying who?

We don't know.

 

We may not know for sure, but there are enough hints to point when the body swap most likely occurred.

 

We know that Rand planned it because of what he told Aliva to do.    Thus unless there was some off-screen moment with Nakomi, we know that it wasn't anything that she planned or that she did without Rand's knowledge.

 

From their own viewpoints, we know that neither Nyn nor Casuanne had anything to do with it.

 

Assuming that they got the knowledge from someone, it might be possible for Avi/Elayne/Aliva to somehow separate Nyn from an inconcious Rand and then pulled the switch.    But from Nyn's POV, this seems unlikely.   Also, do you really think that Nyn would leave an unconcious Rand before she had tried everything that she can think of to save him?

 

That leaves the best possibility for the body switch to have occurred after the Bore was completely closed while Rand was still controlling Moridin through Callendor.    It seems reasonable to suppose that a great deal of power would be required to swap bodies and Rand had that available.    There is nothing that I can think of to argue against it happeneing here.   So, it looks like the best possibility to me.