Taimandred -- the Switcheroo

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

maybe I'm just simple and unoriginal' date=' but I never saw Taim as anyone else but Taim.[/quote']

 

Maybe.

[SBoydW]

I'm the first to admit that "it's the simple things in life" that matter. :)

[Graendals favourite]

I'm in the boat to say Taim-Demandred similarity was an intentional red herring, that is, one of many in the series.

 

It would serve the purpose of giving us info on Demandred while not giving it, at the same time. We would know something of what he is doing while being blinded to seeing what that is, because we misinterpret the info. So while we concentrate on looking at Taim being Demandred, he sneaks up on us unnoticed. There's at least two things that might fit in with LoC, with Demandred completely independent of Taim. One, that he has gained control of Murandy, and the other that he has drawn most of the Borderlander forces south out of the Borderlands. He could even have done both, I'd say easily enough. Or perhaps it would be something else.

 

Or then, the herring would serve to blind us to something else. As in NS, that's how invisibility works :) . (Besides, I'm wondering whether Sora Grady might have been Graendal, in reality. RJ's focusing on her eyes seemed somehow strong.)

[Thor]

I support the red herring. :lol:

 

But anyways, RJ said so, so it is.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Whether anything Taim did (pre-WH) HAD to have been done by Dem is a matter of (considerably controversial) opinion obviously.

 

Well ... that particular part doesn't seem to be open to interpretation. There is nothing in any of the books that Taim did that had to be done by Demandred, thus proving that they are one and the same. There are several things done by Taim that could have been done by Demandred, if we didn't have an external statement saying they're not the same, but nothing that had to be Demandred, or they would be the same.

 

As to the rest, you're completely right that we don't have any proof that RJ didn't change his mind. I just don't think he did. But my opinion is hardly proof ... its just an indication of high probability. 8)

[cannon]

My little suspicion is that the author changed his mind. And it's not something we will ever know for sure. RJ would certainly never admit it' date=' if it were true, for which I can't blame him. And it's not something that can probably ever be proved or disproved satisfactorily from what's in the book.[/quote']

 

How convenient for you and your theory. You simply say that the author changed his mind in mid-story, deliberately, and merely because people had figured him out. And this theory can never be disproven because its essentially a one-way he-said, she-said.

 

(Not really mad or anything, and I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm just amused that you would go to such great lengths and get upset for no good reason.)

 

Personally, I was a HUGE Taimandred supporter. Even after Winter's Heart, I was still in favor of it, coming up with reasons for why he didn't recognize Flynn.

 

But once RJ said flat-out that it wasn't true, I gave up the ghost and looked at where I went wrong. It's pretty obvious that he was set up as a red herring, and I disagree completely with your argument that it was done poorly. Frankly, we have no way of knowing that yet.

 

You talk about how in other novels when you figure out it was a red herring, you can go back and see where you went wrong. The problem I have with your example is that in these stories, you already know the truth, so its easy to see where you were mislead.

 

We don't know the truth about Taim yet, so we can't say with any certainty whether it was good misdirection or bad.

 

Personally, I think he's a DF minion, or possibly a new Chosen. And with that in mind, those passages make sense, and you can easily see where you were mislead to believe it was Demandred, and mislead well. It is mentioned early that Demandred likes to work by proxy, and so having Taim under his thumb works perfectly for that, and you can see easily where the Taimandred theorists would overlook that evidence because they liked their idea better.

 

Just a couple quick notes...

 

The thing with Bashere not recognizing him immediately always bugged me too.

 

The ultimate reason why Taimandred could NOT work, and NEVER did is:

 

1) Rand would recognize him immediately. He has recognized EVERY other forsaken (who wasn't reborn) instantly.

 

2) It's been said over and over that Mask of Mirrors doesn't work well if you're constantly moving, and I doubt he could keep it up for so long, and besides:

 

3) NONE of the forsaken who assumed other names and accumulated power did so under the disquise of someone people already knew. They all came out of nowhere, made up identities, and rose quickly to their power. But they never did so in disguise (using the Mask of Mirrors). Even Mesaana has been pretending to be an Aes Sedai longed removed from the tower, but there's strong evidence to suggest she's not in disguise.

[stoneface]

All the evidence indicating that Taim is not Taim (Davram's non-recognition, Taim's AoL/Forsaken prejudices and expressions, LTT and his "Kill him! Kill him now! Kill him!" rant, etc.) don't say anything about who Taim really is. How idd he get the AoL mindset? I would start the original Forsaken and eliminate the impossible. All the women are out (cannot use saidin), as is Rahvin (the DO stated that he could not bring Rahvin back, and I will take the Father of Lies at his word on this one - gag!). Ditto Asmodean. Most others are not probable, but I saw one interesting topic. Keep the discussion of each other possibility separate, and try this link (So if Be'lal is Taim......). Not definitive, but a good argument.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9604

 

and http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9469

 

The "Taim is Taim" topic is explored in http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4050 and other places.

 

As for the red herring, I could not miss in LoC, A New Arrival (p. 76 hardback) something as obvious as LTT's response on seeing Mazrim Taim of "Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors.... Demandred especially. I should have killed him." Looking at it again, that rant could be taken either specific to Demandred (or Sammael, but he is otherwise accounted for) or in general against the Forsaken. (LTT did have the opportunity to kill them instead of trapping them, but for whatever reason trapped them in the patch. Presumably because it was easier at the time.)

 

Meanwhile, I appreciate the pointer on the Flynn thing in WH; I will look for it. [/i]

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

cannon,

 

You presume that I think RJ changed his mind because the fans "were on to him." That was never my opinion at all, just your inference.

 

Obviously, my "theory" is not provable, as I've SAID MANY TIMES. I'm just throwing it out there. For old times' sake. For S&G. You are allowed to disagree with it. That is permissable. Then we will both have opinions and the world will be balanced once more.

 

It's true that looking back on Taim's actions, once we know who/what he truly is, may shed light on the subject. We shall see many months from now.

 

Regarding your points about why Taimandred would never work (why I should point out the fallacies is... beyond me, since it makes no difference, but anyhow):

 

1) He didn't recognize Asmodean, who was undisguised. It's unclear whether he recognized Lanfear, b/c she told him who she was before she unveiled her true appearance. He gives no appearance of recognizing Be'lal (even though an idiot should have known who he was!)... but I'm going by memory with that one, as I don't have TDR on hand. He never recognized Ishy, though it's unclear if he would have recognized him in that form. Sammael's face was provided courtesy of LTT's memory I believe. None of the EotW party, including Rand, cottoned on to Aginor or Balthy--not that you can blame them there. Rahvin he recognized. I don't think he'd met any of the others in true form at the time Taim appeared on site. So unless I'm missing something... that's ONE of the Forsaken he miraculously recognized on site.

 

2) I never theorized that he was using Mask of Mirrors. Many of the other Forsaken males didn't: Be'lal, Sammael, Ishy (?), Asmodean, or even Aginor/Balthy. Dem's appearance, as described, was nigh on identical, and you can almost believe Dem is arrogant enough to just show up with his real face and expect that LTT would not recognize. Or possibly a small twisting of Mask, which is easier to maintain (as stated by Elayne) without giveaway. Lanfear was certainly able enough to keep up her Keille disguise without incident for many weeks in the Waste.

 

3) Yes. Although, not all of the Forsaken decided to quickly rise to the upper eschelon of nobility. Those whose ploys were to stay close to a particular main character, like Moghedian or Lanfear or the 'gars, used disguises (except Halima, who would have no need of a disguise) and backstory (granted not taking over their nom de plume's life and identity that we know of, they likely made it up out of the blue).

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

stoneface,

 

I think the LTT ravings anytime Taim was near, or just thought of, were one of the more debatable aspects of the Taimandred theory. LTT is clearly mad, so he could just be randomly raving--though it seems unlikely as it's too consistent and too often about the Forsaken (with Dem and Sammael forefront). Or he could be responding to the similarity of himself/Dem and Rand/Taim. Or it could just be that Taim is a random channeler who looks notably like Dem and that just sets LTT off.

 

I always thought there were even more suspicious hints that we were given.

 

But it doesn't matter. RJ has waved his pen and made it not so. So here we are...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oooh ... things got a bit snippy in here :D

 

You guys do know that Wynne is not trying to prove that Taim should be Demandred right? I think she was sort of just ... venting.

 

Relax ... we all know that we can't prove Jordan's motives, and we all know Taim isn't actually Demandred.

[SBoydW]

Oooh ... things got a bit snippy in here

 

You guys do know that Wynne is not trying to prove that Taim should be Demandred right? I think she was sort of just ... venting.

 

Relax ... we all know that we can't prove Jordan's motives, and we all know Taim isn't actually Demandred.

 

party pooper :P

[cannon]

Wynne Jessal,

 

You make some excellent counterpoints to my argument. I had honestly forgotten about Asmodean not being recognized, and the whole Lanfear/Keille disguised.

 

As for Ishmael, I would agree that if he has no eyes and flame in his mouth, it's unlikely he would be recognized. And as for Aginor and Bathamel, I think we have to give them some slack there because at that point he didn't even know he was the Dragon, let along have LTT's memories.

 

I suppose that argument could work for Be'lal as well, but I don't seem to recall him having any recognition trouble with him. Of course, all I remember is Be'lal showing up and Moiraine blasting the heck out of him.

 

As for other forsaken, the 'gars, Moridin, Cyndane should all be off the hook for being reborn.

 

However, he did recognized Rahvin, Sammael, and Semirhage right away. Now you mentioned Sammael coming from LTT's memories, but since I consider Rand and LTT to be the same person, that makes no difference. The memories and images of the forsaken are ALL coming from LTT.

 

So by my count, we have:

 

- 3 he recognized (Sam, Rahvin, Semirhage)

- 3 he can be forgiven for not recognizing (Ishy, Ag, Bath)

- Be'lal is questionable

- Asmo he didn't recognize

- 3 he hasn't seen (Grendael, Mesaana, Moghedien)

 

I left Lanfear out because she was showing up early and kinda messing with his head. Plus I don't remember exactly when he figured out it was Lanfear, and if he figured it out or was told.

 

Lastly, I left out Demandred because obviously the whole discussion was about whether or not he would recognize him based on what's happened with the others.

 

So overall, it looks to me like he started picking up on who was who on or around the 5th book, with Rahvin as a definite. Since that, the other two he's come across he identified on site. Whether that means he would have recognized Demandred as Taim at the time makes me think that he would have.

 

Of course, the point about small changes using the Mask of Mirrors and how that's easier to hold is a good argument. And the descriptions ARE very close. So I suppose I have to agree with you that it was not out of the realm of possibility that Demandred was posing as Taim using minor changes in his appearance with the MoM as to not give himself away. I withdraw my previous argument.

 

However, my original argument still stands:

 

We can't know whether or not it was a well executed or poorly executed red herring until we have the entire truth of the matter.

[algspkr]

I am just finishing Lord of Chaos and was considering this question during the Taim sceens and I must say that Taim shows a concern for Rand's mental well being that seems unlike Demondread, as well as giving up the seal.

[johnnysd]

I KNOW that Jordan has come out and plainly said Taim is not Demandred. I am not sure if I actually believe him. And I am still not sure how the beginning and end of LOC make ANY sense unless Taim is Demandred.

[DocBean]

Anyone that has said that they've reread the books before WH and never thought Taim could be Demandred isn't really reading the books very deeply.

For me it was obvious that Taim was Demandred and I was so proud of myself for catching it right away. then it all went to hell.

 

....or did it.

 

Dem. didn't recognize Flynn, biggest shocker for me.

What else?

 

Where does RJ say Taim is not Demandred?

this is all anyone has ever been able to show me:

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. (Maniacal laughter from the shadows!)

 

hmmmm.

 

i'm still thinking he's not Taim; however, I would not be shocked at all if Taim and Demandred are in fact the same person, and too many bloggers and forum discussions have clouded everything RJ has said.

 

it all comes down to Demandred at the Cleansing.

 

I'm starting to agree with Wynn, RJ changed his mind on us.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Where does RJ say Taim is not Demandred?

this is all anyone has ever been able to show me:

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. (Maniacal laughter from the shadows!)

 

Why does anyone have to show you anything else? That is RJ saying that Taim is not Demandred.

 

And please, please don't go the "what if he's not posing, what if he always was Taim?" route. That's ludicrous, because Taim was active in the world before Demandred was free. So if Demandred is Taim now, then it is, by definition, a pose, and therefore disqualified by this statement.

 

Given the amount of advance planning evident from TEoTW on, it seems very unlikely that Jordan would need to change something this prominent in the story. There is nothing that Taim did that has to have been done by Demandred.

[SBoydW]

I'm starting to agree with Wynn, RJ changed his mind on us.

 

Wether he did or not, Demandred is not, and has never been Taim.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Wether he did or not' date=' Demandred is not, and has never been Taim.[/quote']

 

I agree with that, because we have no choice. But that's not what I was debating. I was debating the "whether he did or not" part.