Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[Sarlic]

Do we learn more details about Taim? Was he always a Darkfriend? Was he the same guy who declared himself a False Dragon? Who trained him, etc? Thanks!

 

Demandred "recruited" him at some point.  But it appears he was the same Taim who declared himself a false Dragon.

[fyodor]

 

Do we learn more details about Taim? Was he always a Darkfriend? Was he the same guy who declared himself a False Dragon? Who trained him, etc? Thanks!

 

Demandred "recruited" him at some point.  But it appears he was the same Taim who declared himself a false Dragon.

 

Thanks! Is there any indication of when this happened-was he a Darkfriend when he declared himself a false dragon or did this happen later?

[Sarlic]

The timeline isn't 100% clear, but the impression (and that's all it is) I got is that it happened prior to Taim declaring himself.

 

Edit: It's worth noting that as I was reading, I was in a frenzy to reach the conclusion, and so was reading quickly.  There's certainly a chance that I've missed some of the more subtle stuff, if it was there!

[MrBlack]

Thanks for the quick response. Disappointing that so much time was spent trying to figure out his alter-ego and it was from some previously unknown prophecy. Had RJ and BS simply RAFOd the answer I would be fine with the Shara thing. But the fact that they said we could have figured it out from the previous books seems a little too much. One other item, someone else on this thread wondered how Bryne was compelled through his dreams even though he was bonded as a warder. Weren't we told early on in the series (by Moraine i think) that the warder bond provides certain advantages including protection/warding of dreams? Am i remembering this incorrectly or is this addressed in AMOL as some new/unknown technique from the AOL?

Did they say that?  I recall Brandon stating that Demandred's alter ego had not made an appearance as of KoD, but that's it.

[dfchang]

i have a queston about moghedien as well.

tuon and egwene made a deal that whoever wants to be collared can be collared and vice versa.

 

so, can moghedien be free, if she choose not to be collared.

 

or will the deal not upheld?

 

either way mogy on a leash, doesn't mean that she never can escape in the future.

so off all the forsaken , at the end she was the only one who survived.

 

 

second question,

why was it good thing that rhuarc died for the future of the aiel?

will there be new chiefs , since they have a new role as peacekeepers.

5 of the chief clans died, who survived?

The deal has not been finalized yet. Tuon and Egwene's covnersation degenerated if you recall. But it is a significant hint toward the direction relations between Seanchan and the rest of the world may go.

 

This of course has interesting repercussions for Elaida and Moghedien. Come to think of it, Liandrin is damane as well and a few other Black Ajah I would think. So yes you could go free . . . AND BE STILLED! If it were a toss up between remaining damane or going free after being stilled, I could see Moggy and Elaida happily serving as damane for life.

 

Also remember that Tuon broached the idea of damane as punishment for dreadlords, Sharan PoW channelers, etc and I think that will be incorporated as well.

 

 

Now to your second question. It's not a good thing that Rhuarc died for the future of the Aiel. Also he didn't die FOR that future. The future was changed when Aviendha changed it and one of the consequences was the death of Rhuarc. In the original viewing, he was alive. He obviously died in the current one.

 

As for clan chiefs, we were never told who specifically lived and who died. The ones who died will obviously need to be replaced but I don't see how a new purpose for the Aiel would demand new Clan Chiefs any more than new Wise Ones. They just have to adapt to the changing times and move forward.

[dfchang]

In retrospect, I am amazed at the sheer amount of stuff they jammed in this book. Little bits of things foreshadowed books ago do make an appearance, albeit briefly.

 

I do wish things were allowed to "breathe" a little more naturally and organically and we had a slightly more full ending.

 

I would have LOVED it if we had gotten more of an actual Epilogue that took us a few years in the future so we could get a glimpse of what the world is like and what some of our favorite characters were up to instead of having to make it up ourselves. The book literally ends with a view of the literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of corpses from the Last Battle.

 

Really??

[fionwe1987]

I would have LOVED it if we had gotten more of an actual Epilogue that took us a few years in the future so we could get a glimpse of what the world is like and what some of our favorite characters were up to instead of having to make it up ourselves. The book literally ends with a view of the literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of corpses from the Last Battle.

 

Really??

I liked that, and I also like RJ's "hook". It is a very fitting way to finish. Stories go on, all the time. They just don't all get written.

 

I do wish we had seen Elayne's reaction to Gawyn and Egwene's death, though. I get it that she wasn't beat up over Rand's "death". But her brother and sister-in-law died the same day she lost her Warder. How the hell is she behaving so coolly? 

[dfchang]

fionwe1987, I'm with you and I understand why they did it this way but there are degrees to this and I think they could have given us a little more without spelling everything out.

 

Your example with Elayne is one perfect illustration of this.

 

At least it answered a question I had over a decade ago which is what happens when you snap a bond but then the original death was reversed?

 

I was thinking about Lan's reaction to Moiraine but Elayne's to Birgitte answered that questions just as well.

 

As for Elayne since we are FORCED to speculate, I would say this. She is bonded to Rand and via him to two other "near sisters." Maybe the bond protects somewhat from the pain of the bond snapping? Also while it DOES hurt, she has the advantage of rationally knowing Birgitte is happy and doing well and not really dead.

 

Finally, we aren't really given any insight into her head by this point. Events are moving so fast and Rand after all has to be dealt with that she may not even have been able to process Gawyn and Egwene's death yet. She may be grieving but we don't get a chance to see it.

 

[GuyangMao]

fionwe1987, I'm with you and I understand why they did it this way but there are degrees to this and I think they could have given us a little more without spelling everything out. Your example with Elayne is one perfect illustration of this. At least it answered a question I had over a decade ago which is what happens when you snap a bond but then the original death was reversed? I was thinking about Lan's reaction to Moiraine but Elayne's to Birgitte answered that questions just as well. As for Elayne since we are FORCED to speculate, I would say this. She is bonded to Rand and via him to two other "near sisters." Maybe the bond protects somewhat from the pain of the bond snapping? Also while it DOES hurt, she has the advantage of rationally knowing Birgitte is happy and doing well and not really dead. Finally, we aren't really given any insight into her head by this point. Events are moving so fast and Rand after all has to be dealt with that she may not even have been able to process Gawyn and Egwene's death yet. She may be grieving but we don't get a chance to see it.

 

A lot of the Warder death reactions are either delayed in narrative or off-screen.  I wouldn't have worried about it.  It's the Aes Sedai death Warder's reaction that's more immediate.

[sleepinghour]

It's also possible that Nynaeve or Flinn has figured out how to Heal the pain from a broken Warder band. It's one of the questions I would have liked to see answered in AMoL. In ACoS, Nynaeve noticed "something odd" when she Delved Lan, and we know her Delving has improved a lot since. Both she and Flinn wanted to try Healing Daigian from the pain, but they never even got to try since Daigian refused to be Healed. In Elayne's case, she knows Birgitte lives on in some way, so there's no reason for her to carry the pain if she doesn't have to.

[sleepinghour]

Nynaeve, Egwene, Logain and Cadsuane were now members of the Forsaken, Turned to the Shadow against their will. -AMoL ch 37

 

This should have been used as a Memory. Tor passed up an excellent opportunity to troll fandom.

[lilltempest]

I've seen a lot of talk about most of the characters, but virtually nothing about Nynaeve. So she's basically a non-entity in the book? Egwene, Elayne, and Avi get to take out bad guys and be heroes but Nyn is just a waste of space for the entire novel except for a tagalong with Rand at SG?

[dfchang]

I've seen a lot of talk about most of the characters, but virtually nothing about Nynaeve. So she's basically a non-entity in the book? Egwene, Elayne, and Avi get to take out bad guys and be heroes but Nyn is just a waste of space for the entire novel except for a tagalong with Rand at SG?

Well let's not get carried away. She DOES Heal Talmanes.

[dfchang]

 

 

Nynaeve, Egwene, Logain and Cadsuane were now members of the Forsaken, Turned to the Shadow against their will. -AMoL ch 37

 

This should have been used as a Memory. Tor passed up an excellent opportunity to troll fandom.

That would have been hilarious. They did do a variation of it though. Remember "The Blight had taken the Two Rivers"??

[KakitaOCU]

Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha are loose to move about as they need and fight where they will. Nynaeve is tied to Rand for this battle. It's not truly surprising that she does less. That said, it doesn't diminish her, she cured Taint Induced Madness, she healed Stilling. She's already a legend and will go on to be even greater as she truly comes into her power and gains the rest of her life as an Aes Sedai to do more.

[lilltempest]

 

I've seen a lot of talk about most of the characters, but virtually nothing about Nynaeve. So she's basically a non-entity in the book? Egwene, Elayne, and Avi get to take out bad guys and be heroes but Nyn is just a waste of space for the entire novel except for a tagalong with Rand at SG?

Well let's not get carried away. She DOES Heal Talmanes.

LOL. So, as I said, she was completely worthless. How sad. I had hopes she'd be able to shine during TG and stand up to people who needed it...and maybe take one of the  Forsaken down. Instead, Egwene takes down two of them and Avi ends up with one as a personal slave while Nyn apparently sits offscreen with her thumb up her ass. I guess the Nyn haters were right, after all...she's a worthless sack of crap.

[lilltempest]

Double post...delete please

[KakitaOCU]

Except I really don't see how what she did as useless. Not to mention her use is in the full scope of her actions, not what she does in the last book.

 

As Egwene said back in TOM, this is the woman who has defeated and captured a forsaken, the woman who helped cleanse the taint from Saidin. This is a woman who healed a madness that was thought uncurable, that restored the ability to channel when it was supposed to be impossible. She married the king of Malkier and she's going to go forward and restore an entire kingdom. That's not even counting that she's most likely going to end up another Cadsuane in terms of legend status.

 

To demean her because in this one book her only major action is helping Ran stop the end of the universe is hardly fair.

[Sarlic]

 

 

I've seen a lot of talk about most of the characters, but virtually nothing about Nynaeve. So she's basically a non-entity in the book? Egwene, Elayne, and Avi get to take out bad guys and be heroes but Nyn is just a waste of space for the entire novel except for a tagalong with Rand at SG?

Well let's not get carried away. She DOES Heal Talmanes.

LOL. So, as I said, she was completely worthless. How sad. I had hopes she'd be able to shine during TG and stand up to people who needed it...and maybe take one of the  Forsaken down. Instead, Egwene takes down two of them and Avi ends up with one as a personal slave while Nyn apparently sits offscreen with her thumb up her ass. I guess the Nyn haters were right, after all...she's a worthless sack of crap.

 

 

I'm disappointed she didn't have more screen time, but she's *far* from worthless.  She, with Moiraine and Rand, were instrumental in the sealing of the Bore.  The problem, likely, is the time variance between what's happening in the Pit of Doom, outside in Thankan'dar, and down and Merrilor.  Only a day or two passes for Rand & Co, while a time is moving much more quickly outside.  A shame we didn't see her more.

 

How much time *did* pass in this book, actually?  A few days?  Now that we have a complete telling of the story, I think we need to look back at the series as a whole.  I guess she *did* get a lot of screen time.

 

 

But here's another question.  The Bore is sealed with the new Power that Rand used (combining saidin, saidar, and the True Power.)  Apparently Rand has access to some kind of new Power (since he could light his pipe by merely thinking of the flame.)  Was it the same thing?

 

Additionally, Rand, essentially, came to the realization that humanity *needs* a Dark One (as evidenced by the reality he created with Shai'tan dead.)  The Dark One existed to make humanity stronger, etc (at least that's what I got from it.)  So does that mean, then, the Wheel is merely turning and the Dark One will break free again at some point? 

 

I didn't get the sense that he would be sealed away for good.

[sleepinghour]

I've seen a lot of talk about most of the characters, but virtually nothing about Nynaeve. So she's basically a non-entity in the book? Egwene, Elayne, and Avi get to take out bad guys and be heroes but Nyn is just a waste of space for the entire novel except for a tagalong with Rand at SG?

 

I wouldn't say that, but unfortunately there are very few Nynaeve POVs in the book. What we do see of her is usually through someone else's eyes. She and Moiraine have to stay at Rand's side nearly the whole time, so they don't get to fight any Forsaken on their own.

 

While they're at Shayol Ghul, Nynaeve finds a dying Alanna there and manages to keep her alive long enough to release Rand from the bond. She doesn't have access to the Power at that point (Rand's in control of the link), so she has to sew Alanna's wounds up in almost pitch darkness and use herbs to bring her back to consciousness. Moridin had been counting on Rand to go into a Warder death rage from Alanna's death, which would probably have ruined everything. And she and Moiraine do play a very important role at SG, but I think that part's better unspoiled. All main characters are in their own way absolutely crucial to the Light's victory.

 

Towards the end, Loial notices that both Nynaeve and Lan are wearing crowns, though we don't find out much about what's going on with Malkier. All things considered, I think Nynaeve got one of the happiest endings. Egwene died, Elayne lost Birgitte and Gawyn, and Aviendha was left crippled by her injuries.

[lilltempest]

Except I really don't see how what she did as useless. Not to mention her use is in the full scope of her actions, not what she does in the last book. As Egwene said back in TOM, this is the woman who has defeated and captured a forsaken, the woman who helped cleanse the taint from Saidin. This is a woman who healed a madness that was thought uncurable, that restored the ability to channel when it was supposed to be impossible. She married the king of Malkier and she's going to go forward and restore an entire kingdom. That's not even counting that she's most likely going to end up another Cadsuane in terms of legend status. To demean her because in this one book her only major action is helping Ran stop the end of the universe is hardly fair.

 

I am just disappointed. Nyn is, by far, my favorite female character and she has been relegated to third or fourth tier status among the characters. Rand, from what I've read on here, apparently does absolutely nothing until the end of the book, so why is Nyn sitting around with her thumb up her butt? Hell, for that matter, why isn't Rand doing some fighting as well? Fionwe, on another board, stated that the only ones channeling consistently are Egwene and Aviendha, which means Rand and Nyn (and even Moiraine) are doing basically nothing while Egwene personally fights the Last Battle on her own. That makes no sense. Nyn is a strong channeler and, given a chance, she can kick some serious ass, but she isn't used at all in this book. So yeah, she has done some great things in past books but she serves no purpose in Tarmon Gai'don. While others are getting to become legends, she's not even window dressing because she's flat out invisible.

 

It also irks me that, apparently, Logain is shown to be nothing but a worthless sack of crap as well, and weak and wimpy on top of it. He gets captured by Taim, and has to be rescued, then gets the crap kicked out of him by Demandred. I suppose his glory is leading the BT while everyone laughs at him behind his back for being a huge wussy boy, lol. And there goes my second favorite male character down the tubes! Oh well, at least Rand survives. Too bad he's still bonded to all three of those damned women, though. He should have severed the bonds and run off with Min.

[KakitaOCU]

Sarlic, that's the central theme of the series. That everything's a cycle that repeats.

 

Speculation is that Rand has sealed the bore like it was never there, but Egwene's actions left a new "thinness" in the pattern that will allow the bore to be created anew when the next Age of Legends comes along. By then people will have forgotten the DO exists and make the same mistakes Lanfear did to start the whole mess.

[lilltempest]

 

I've seen a lot of talk about most of the characters, but virtually nothing about Nynaeve. So she's basically a non-entity in the book? Egwene, Elayne, and Avi get to take out bad guys and be heroes but Nyn is just a waste of space for the entire novel except for a tagalong with Rand at SG?

 

I wouldn't say that, but unfortunately there are very few Nynaeve POVs in the book. What we do see of her is usually through someone else's eyes. She and Moiraine have to stay at Rand's side nearly the whole time, so they don't get to fight any Forsaken on their own.

 

While they're at Shayol Ghul, Nynaeve finds a dying Alanna there and manages to keep her alive long enough to release Rand from the bond. She doesn't have access to the Power at that point (Rand's in control of the link), so she has to sew Alanna's wounds up in almost pitch darkness and use herbs to bring her back to consciousness. Moridin had been counting on Rand to go into a Warder death rage from Alanna's death, which would probably have ruined everything. And she and Moiraine do play a very important role at SG, but I think that part's better unspoiled. All main characters are in their own way absolutely crucial to the Light's victory.

 

Towards the end, Loial notices that both Nynaeve and Lan are wearing crowns, though we don't find out much about what's going on with Malkier. All things considered, I think Nynaeve got one of the happiest endings. Egwene died, Elayne lost Birgitte and Gawyn, and Aviendha was left crippled by her injuries.

 

Oh, I'm thrilled she and Lan survive. I was pretty convinced that Lan would die and she would be miserable while Egwene lived happily ever after (with Gawyn, her little slave) rubbing her nose in the dirt to ram home the point that she is Nyn's superior. So I'm thrilled with that part.

 

It seems fitting that Nyn has to rely on her skills with herbs and such at the end, too. And YES!! Rand gets to control the link. That is pure awesomeness, so much better than him just being used up by some woman controlling the link. How'd they get to that point? Especially when even Rand seemed convinced that he would have to submit to a circle and be used while a woman channeled.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Sarlic, that's the central theme of the series. That everything's a cycle that repeats. Speculation is that Rand has sealed the bore like it was never there, but Egwene's actions left a new "thinness" in the pattern that will allow the bore to be created anew when the next Age of Legends comes along. By then people will have forgotten the DO exists and make the same mistakes Lanfear did to start the whole mess.

Could it be said that there is something similar to the role reversal -although not exact - between this Last Battle and the Age of Legends? Then, Lews Therin was blamed for failing to seal the DO properly, allowing for his counterstrike and the Breaking? Is it true that this time it was Egwene - a female Aes Sedai - whose actions caused a sealing to be imperfect? Though as I understood from earlier posts, her actions were necessary for Light's survival, similarly to LTT's actions before.

[Zefram]

A lot of Asha'man in BT got 13x13 to DF, are any of Two Rivers men/boys got affected. I remember that Taim (on orders from Rand) went there and collected a LOT of male channelers (I believe Logain in WH complained that he scrubbed the town clean including pots). And I remember many of them were too young to get noticed enough to be converted (14)and Taim concentrated mostly on most powerful and visible Asha'man and then followed by Logain's allies. But I would think that both Taim and Demandred would want to convert some of Two Rivers men just to get to Rand. Any mention of that in aMoL?

 

Also, somebody on this post mentioned that those who were forcefully converted to DF weren't reversed by end of book, does it mean one of my favorites - Tarna and others are still DF and allowed to run free?

 

I wonder how those who were forcefully converted to DF would survive in this new world were DO is just a memory, would they be just uncontrollably evil people?