Black Cuendilar

[Bob T Dwarf]

Which leads to the likelihood that the Seals, and their Black/White Aes Sedai symbol require a circle.

[nashdude]

Agreed

[son omerc]

I think what's making this such a difficult question is that up to this point only Elaine and the women have made anything at all related to the power. I don't recall if those copies of the male adam from Tanicho are cuendillar, I don’t think they would be as the links would fuse together much like the harbor chain or the two goblets, but they are black and ter'angreal (Wouldn't the Seals also be a type of ter'angreal as they focused the webs/weaves used to seal the DO's prison?) and I would bet they were probably made by Semhirage or some of the damane from Seanchan. All the ter'angrael, angreal, and objects of cuendillar lying around in Randland don't have a makers mark stating this man or this woman made this item. I would figure that angreal for men were made by men and vice versa, but I don't recall seeing anything stating they are a form of cuendillar, though they do share some similarities i.e. being practically indestructible.

[nashdude]

I would figure that angreal for men were made by men and vice versa...

 

Maybe, maybe not. I think a man could probably use a female angreal in the same way that he can form a circle with one, and vice versa a woman with a male angreal.

 

But just to confuse us even more, what about this? Yall remember the description of the access ter'angreal for the statues? Was one white and one black? Nope... if memory serves, they were both white!

 

Hmmmm...

[son omerc]

I'm not so sure about a man using a female angreal. Sammael had the plain gold ring that Graendal is using, but he never used it. Several times in the series different women, and Rand, are shown to feel an affinity with an angreal, but never one that the other sex uses. Rand even claims after Dumai Wells when his angreal goes missing that unless some woman took it to simply keep it from him then it must have been a man that felt the affinity himself even if he didn't know what it implied.

[Moric]

Concerning the colour of ter'angreal...

 

Remember the broken Access Key in Tanchico? Most probably the Access Keys are NOT made of Cuendillar (they are mentioned (I think by a FS) and thought of NEARLY impossible to destroy (not COMPLETELY impossible as Cuendillar at least SHOULD be, hehe))

The angreal Rand al'Thor looses at the Dumai Wells is green... The angreal Moiraine Damodred carries with her in the Two Rivers is not really white, it has a look of old ivory. Matrim Cauthon's foxhead ter'angreal are made of something looking like silver.

Most *angreal are quite hard to destroy, but most are still POSSIBLE to destroy, ergo: They're not made of cuendillar.

 

Moric of the Singing Wind sept of the Miagoma aiel

[Mardragon]

Yes I think it's pretty certain ter'rangreal can be destroyed (except those made from heartstone if they exist). There have even been a couple of instances when it's happened - the gateway ter'rangreal to the fox's world for example and the key to the statue Sa'angreal for another. Granted massive ammounts of the power were used, but it goes to show. Cuendillar could have taken it and probably become even more powerfull.

 

That being said, I disagree that the seals are not cuendillar. Their brittleness as the seal weakens is probably the only exception where cuendillar can become breakable. This could be due to the amount of power the Dark one is using to attempt to break free (and bear in mind if he's using any power it's likely to be his so called 'true power' which would probably have a different affect on cuendillar than the One Power), or simply the fact that they are a focal point of power. Or it could be another symptom of the general degradation that is entering the world (i.e. the same thing that causes 'holding' weaves to fail and the dead to walk).

[Guest cwestervelt]

The seals are definitely cuendillar. The Aes Sedai in Salidar even test the pieces of the one that Elayne and Nynaeve bring. It was still cuendillar, but somehow fragile at the same time.

[Moric]

Ayup... I agree fully and whole-heartedly.

 

M

[son omerc]

I agree that the Seals are cuendillar. I question if because they are focuses for the webs/weaves to seal the DO's prison that in effect makes them ter'angreal, an object that uses the power to perform some function, or if they don't really use the OP and are focuses in some non-physical(mental) context.

 

Another thought is that the taint on saiden that existed for 3000 years is what deteriorated the Seals, much as the taint caused the Ways to deteriorate, and that since Rand cleansed saiden the Seals will stop deteriorating. I don't think they or the Ways will improve, just stop getting worse. Although one could claim that the taint shouldn't have affected the white cuendillar half of the Seals. Maybe it's being tied to the black in the Seals is what allowed it to be weakened. I would think that the taint was caused by the True Power.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've said this before.

 

I think the deterioration is a result of the people, and their suspicious, backbiting, "it's all about me" attitudes.

 

The caustic ethic that prevails in the Third Age is what has worn away the cuendillar focuses ( focusi ) for the seals.

[son omerc]

Herid Fel remarked that order ... Can't really remember the rest, but it supported you're idea. He also said that the rubble had to be cleared away before rebuilding, I don't know if that was a reference to the exsisting Seals or to those unorderly masses of people.

 

The Seanchan are an orderly society, and they impose their sense of order on the areas of Randland where they hold sway, so maybe that will be part of their contribution to the story of the Last Battle and the defeat and reimprisonment of the DO. Besides their many battle damane that is.

[Graendals favourite]

There must be some way cuendillar can be destroyed though, of course, since otherwise it would accumulate. We don't have it here, after all. I wonder if Mat's medallion, or if there's a weave that does that, would do something to that effect. Or a stedding?

[son omerc]

Cuendillar that is not an angreal, either ter' or sa', would not have been protected by the Aes Sedai, sent away with the Aiel, and a lot may have been buried in the uphevals or sunken to the bottom of the sea. In fact I seem to recall in an earlier story some fisherman who pulled up a piece of cuendillar in his fishing nets and set off a flurry of treasure hunting. That said, I would think cuendillar that was subsumed into the depths of the earth through plate techtonics might very well be destroyed over several turnings of the Wheel.

[Siswaiaman]

Cuellindar is not supposed to be strong, its INDESTRUCTABLE (with the exception of the Seals).

 

BTW The TP is not that different then the TS. Referances are made of the same flows being used, so it can't be that different, and using the TS on Cuellindar only makes it stronger. Whatever the DO is doing, its not the TP.

[son omerc]

We know that OP/TS directed against it only makes cuendillar stronger. We may infer that TP is similar in its use in that those who can wield OP/TS can also wield TP, but we do not have proof that the two different powers have the exact same effect on objects. In fact one would assume they probably have somewhat different affects as if they affected everything in the same way and were woven the same way they would in fact be so similar they would be the same thing.

 

It is also interesting that cuendiller is known as Heartstone while the DO is sometimes named Heartsbane.

 

As to cuendillar being totally indestructable that information was provided by the same sources that said that Stilling/Gentling could not be Healed and that the taint could not be removed from saidin. Many things taken as fact even in the AoL have been proven false. We don't know if any tests on the effects of TP against cuendillar have been made. While a one time blast may have no effect, a continuous assault over 3000 years may have some effects.

[Siswaiaman]

But its not a continuous assult. The seals have only begun to weaken recently, and either way, the DO would be attacking the seals directly, not the foucus points.

According to descrptions by the forsaken, the 2 are wielded the same. Saying that they being wielded the same could make them more or less the same tisn't true. Water from this hose is not water from that hose, even if it's stll water.

[son omerc]

But its not a continuous assult. The seals have only begun to weaken recently' date=' and either way, the DO would be attacking the seals directly, not the foucus points.[/size']

 

The DO would have been attacking the Weaves/Webs that sealed his prison, IMHO, from the moment they sealed the Bore. I don't see any reason why that attack would not have been continuous since the Bore was sealed 3000 years ago before the Breaking. If the Seals are a physical focus for those same Weaves/Webs then wouldn't an attack on the Weaves/Webs also affect the Seals? If they are connected, much like the female access ter'angreal that was destroyed during the cleansing of saidin when the actual female sa'angreal on Tremalking melted, it is logical to assume an assault against the Weaves/Webs would affect them in a similar way? The Seals are tied to the physical seal on the Bore or breaking the Seals would not affect that Weave/Web.

 

 

According to descrptions by the forsaken' date=' the 2(OP and TP) are wielded the same. Saying that they being wielded the same could make them more or less the same tisn't true. Water from this hose is not water from that hose, even if it's stll water.[/size']

 

Gasoline can be sprayed through the same hose and it is not water, so how does the fact that both are liquid support your argument? My point was that if they are wielded exactly the same, perform exactly the same, and affect everything the same then they would be in effect the same thing. Yes I know that men and women are supposed to be able to both wield the TP, but if they use their respective male or female Weavings/Webs then they are really no better off than using saidin/saidar. We know from when Rand channeled saidar through Nynaeve that it didn't form as saidin would, even though in the end it did the same thing. What definite proof do we have that TP works exactly like saidin? If it does does that mean it doesn't work like saidar?

[son omerc]

I meant to cover this in the last post but forgot.

 

All we know for certain is that only recently have the Seals weakened enough to allow the DO to influence Randland. We don't know how strong the sealing Web was to begin with, nor if it has been a continual gradual weakening or a sudden thing. We have only recently seen the Seals turn up and no study was really made of them until they began breaking.

[Guest cwestervelt]

But we do know that for 3000 years or whatever, the seals remained as solid as cuendillar should be. Then, after just a few months additional time, they are breaking and the pieces can be crumbled by hand. This would indicate that whatever the cause is, it was a recent occurance. That doesn't meen that the Dark One wasn't trying all the time. Just that he only recently found something that would work. If he had anything to do with the current state of them that is.

[son omerc]

We don't know how strong or weak the Seals have been over the last 3000 years because they have been lost. One was recently found in Tanicho by the Wonder Girls, Taim brought in one from Saldea, one was found by Bail Domon, and so on and etcetera. Lost means they haven't been studied. They could have been weakened slowly or just in the last few years.

 

Personally I think it has been a gradual weakening, but not because of the taint alone. I feel that Ishamael has undermined the order of Randland with his comings every 1000 years. He sent the Trollocs ravening south and destroyed the Ten Nations (The Second Covenant), he turned Hawkwing against the White Tower and sent a portion of Hawkwing’s empire across the ocean, supposedly sealing two dooms. This loss of order allowed the Webs to weaken and the taint from the DO further weakened the Webs until at present when Ishamael returns it is all in place to finally free the DO.

[son omerc]

Guess I should do more research. From the BWB pg 46, "Most references to the seals concern the seven palm-sized discs marked on top with the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, half dead black and half purest white with the two halves seperated by a sinuous line."

 

So the cuendillar is not really black, it is just black on top. Doesn't answer the question of how they can make it black on top, but it makes it clear that it is not half white cuendillar and half black cuendillar.

 

Then we have "The discs themselves are ter'angreal made of cuendillar,...".

 

That answers that.

 

And finally, "...considering the link between the physical discs and the actual seals,..".

 

There is a link and they were not simply mental focal points. Although the BWB later states that they were hidden away to keep the male Aes Sedai madmen who were breaking the world from finding them. If they are cuendillar why hide them? Is it because a man could see the knotted webs and unravel them?

 

One final point, the article does state that the seals were made before "the Fateful Concord", so women and men were probably both involved.

[dreago]

I agree that women make white and men make black Cuendillar. Anyone ever wonder what the wall at the black tower is made of?

[algspkr]

elayne didn' rediscover anything' date=' she just copied pre-existing ter'angreals.

 

now if she makes a new one out of her own ideas, that'd be cool.[/quote']

 

She has made at least three. Two are discs that make the user appear blurry, and sick to their stomach. The third is another disc, but it makes the user invisible.

 

There have been hints at others, but they seem to be mostly failures.

[mike]

vaccine=jenner

 

there isn't a recipe for black&white cuendillar as it has to be relearned just like everything else.