Brandon Sanderson's "Chekov's Gun" from tDR... Maybe?

[DaoineSidhe]

Orban & Furlan. The two Hunter's for the Horn from Chapter 33 in tDR. Don't know if this was already discussed, and had a devil of a time trying to look it up in the forums, so just thought I'd start a new post. I just wanted to say that if anything can be described as a "loaded gun", it is these two, rofl. I don't know that I really want to see them again in the story, but they would be a perfect fit for a "Chekov's gun" scenario.

 

Thoughts? Other opinions?

[spoke]

You cannot include them unless you include their mounts as well, Lion and ???

[herid]

lol, how is this a Chekov's gun? Do they just show up and say "Hi, everybody!"?

[Whizbang]

I'd like to see them show up one day and actually take on 20 Aiel (Shaido) and win, preferrably saving a village just before Perrin gets there.

[DaoineSidhe]

The reason that Orban & Furlan would be considered a "Chekov's gun" is because of the obvious detail that RJ went into describing them, their adventure, etc.  Why are these two characters in this story, and why do we get so much information about them, if they won't end up re-appearing at some point?

 

Chekov's Gun is the idea that all things placed in a story should have been placed there deliberately by the author.  ie, if you put a loaded gun in a scene, it should be used at some point.  There aren't a whole lot of things introduced in chapters 30-40 of tDR that could really fit this possibility after I did a quick re-read of those chapters last night.  If other's have seen things that would qualify as a Chekov's gun, I'd be more than happy to hear them, because well, I don't particularly WANT to see Orban & Furlan again in the story, they are just the only thing that I could see being a "Chekov's gun" from that section of tDR.

[herid]

Two previously introduced characters simply showing up again does not qualify as a Chekov's gun. It has to be a plot device of some sort or some idea that was previously introduced but never developed. E.g. the notion that people can be turned to Dark side by using 13x13 trick. Introduced early on but not used in a number of books. Or the notion that somebody's mindtrap can be broken to turn them into automatons. Introduced in aCoS but not used thus far. Or that one of the Forsaken will turn back to the light (banded about in TDR, ch 36). Something like that. My own idea about this one is that Verin hid the Horn in the Two Rivers after taking it to the Tower. She went to the Two Rivers right after that and it would be a somewhat natural place to stash the Horn given that both Rand and Mat are from there and might come back to the Two Rivers because of the rumors of the trouble there at the time (Perrin shows up instead). Perrin and Faile talk  about this possibility in TDR, ch 35. But there are several other options that have been discussed before. See here for example.

[DaoineSidhe]

Chekov's gun is the idea that you limit what you show the reader (or audience in his case, as Chekov was a playwright) to only be things that have importance to the story. Chekov's gun does not have to show how it will be used, only that something shown must be used. To do otherwise is to muddle a story with too many things of no consequence, causing the reader to become confused, and in the end not be able to follow the author's message.

 

-13x13'ing: Great Chekov's gun idea, which has kind of already been used. We haven't “seen” people being 13x13'ed, but if you don't know that what's going on in the BT right now, well...

 

-Forsaken turning back to light: NOT Chekov's gun. You could say foreshadowing, the foreshadowing used in this instance wouldn't be Chekov's gun, just your normal foreshadowing in the form of conversation

 

-Orban & Furlan: These two “seemingly random” (Chekov's gun states that there should be no random events) hunters for the Horn show up in Perrin's path while they are chasing Rand to Tear. There is no reason to go into their story, or even introduce them to the story, if they don't have some role to play later on in the series.

 

-Varoius characters Rand & Matt met on way to Caemlyn in tEotW: ALL Chekov's guns. Each one has returned at some other point in the story and had impact. Else Grinwell is met later on in the WT by the Wondergirls. The DF they meet in Market Sheran is later hung by the Whitecloaks after being involved in trying to get Morgase out of Amador. The farmer is the first person to see Rand Sedai, and his new effect on the world at large. The other farmer that gives them the ride stands up for Morgase during the riots, and is mentioned by Gawyn in tDR when he meets the Wondergirls. They were introduced early on, and then “fired off” later in the series.

 

-Verin hiding Horn in TR: NOT Chekov's gun. Don't get me wrong, I think the theory has merits, and there are hints to it at various points (which you have made), but this is an instance of your typical foreshadowing, not really a “Chekov's gun” type of event.

 

Here's a little snippet from http://www.fuelyourwriting.com/bang-using-avoiding-chekhovs-gun/ on Chekhov's gun, and it versus foreshadowing:

 

Chekhov’s Gun occasionally gets referred to as foreshadowing, which isn’t strictly true. Foreshadowing would relate to things that are mentioned so that when you reach your big reveal, the reader is surprised, but not totally shocked beyond belief since you’ve given them tiny clues along the way. This becomes apparent when the reader goes back and reads for a second time – suddenly your little clues become obvious, and the reader wonders why they didn’t get the twist the first time around. Psycho or The Sixth Sense would be good examples of this.

[Suttree]

Sorry Daoine, those characters most certainly do not fit a Checkovs Gun scenario. They've served their purpose and we will not see them again.

[herid]

Chekov's gun is the idea that you limit what you show the reader (or audience in his case, as Chekov was a playwright) to only be things that have importance to the story.

correct, but what idea is exactly being fulfilled by simply showing two previously introduced characters? Both Orban and Furlan had a clearly defined purpose which they fulfilled already. we don't need to see them ever again.

Chekov's gun does not have to show how it will be used, only that something shown must be used. To do otherwise is to muddle a story with too many things of no consequence, causing the reader to become confused, and in the end not be able to follow the author's message.

 

-13x13'ing: Great Chekov's gun idea, which has kind of already been used. We haven't “seen” people being 13x13'ed, but if you don't know that what's going on in the BT right now, well...

of course I know what's going on in the BT but you made this thread on a non-spoiler board so I didn't want to go into that. and BS said explicitly that this is NOT about 13x13 as I quoted in the link I gave you. This was just an example.

 

-Forsaken turning back to light: NOT Chekov's gun. You could say foreshadowing, the foreshadowing used in this instance wouldn't be Chekov's gun, just your normal foreshadowing in the form of conversation

yes, I know a difference between a foreshadowing and a Chekov's gun and you are right that   this is not a Chekov's gun in a strict sense but it fits a LOT better than the notion that two previously introduced characters who served their purpose are a Chekov's gun. BS need not  strictly adhere to the pure concept of a Chekov's gun here.

 

-Orban & Furlan: These two “seemingly random” (Chekov's gun states that there should be no random events) hunters for the Horn show up in Perrin's path while they are chasing Rand to Tear. There is no reason to go into their story, or even introduce them to the story, if they don't have some role to play later on in the series.

Orban and Furlan played a clear role when they showed up. They were needed to introduce Gaul and Faile and make Faile decide to trail after Perrin. They are not needed for anything else.

-Varoius characters Rand & Matt met on way to Caemlyn in tEotW: ALL Chekov's guns. Each one has returned at some other point in the story and had impact.

 

NO. Most of these characters already served their purpose in tEoTW. Bartim, Master Kinch, Eazil Forney, Jak, Strom. None of these guys are Chekov's guns. We don't ever need to see them again and most likely won't. We didn't have to see Almen Bunt either. It was a nice touch to bring him back but not at all necessary. Same for Paitr Conel. Both of them performed rather clear functions in tEoTW and didn't have to come back.

 

I should add that your idea is particularly unlikely because we are talking about Brandon Sanderson here. He rather clearly doesn't care about most of the minor characters introduced by RJ. He dropped huge numbers of them without any explanation in favor of extremely annoying and far too numerous fan tributes, each and every one of whom would qualify as a Chekov's gun according to your interpretation of the notion. Both tGS and ToM (and also what little we saw of AMOL)  are stuffed with a multitude of very minor new characters who fleet in and out of the books without any apparent need for them to be there, never to be seen again.

[DaoineSidhe]

Most of these characters did already serve their purpose.  They were "fired" already, as it were, when they made their re-appearances.  A Chekov's gun doesn't have to keep re-appearing, it only has to be "fired" at some point after it was shown.  I should have clarified that, because I didn't mean to imply that they would be coming back, but were past examples of Chekov's guns.  And each one in their own way added important bits to the story.  They all added to the narrative about how ta'veren change and affect people's lives.

 

I'm not saying that Orban & Furlan WILL 100% be the Chekov's gun.  However, when I re-read those chapters with Chekov's gun in my head, they stuck out the most as being "out of place" in the story, which would make them a candidate for a Chekov's gun.  To me, Orban & Furlan were given way too much background and description for them to have "fulfilled their purpose" in introducing Gaul and Faile.  Those two could have been introduced in a very similar manner and just as well without them.  Are they minor characters?  Of course, and that is somewhat the point.  They are minor characters, but look at the attention Robert Jordan pays to them, the details and time he spends on their characters who are very minor.  This type of highlighting of seemingly innocuous objects, things, people, is usually a key component of Chekov's gun usages.

 

After re-reading the chapters again, though, I do have to agree that your theory is a good candidate for the Chekov's gun as well, Herid.  It is mentioned multiple times in a short period of time, highlighting this idea that would have it fit Chekov's gun usage.  The Horn being in what used to be Manetheren is a hair-brained idea, but its mentioned multiple times for SOME reason...

 

For the 13x13'ing, I wans't saying it was the Chekov's gun BS referred to in his quote, only that it was A Chekov's gun in the literary sense.  Again, I should have clarified, and sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

 

It is quite possible that BS wasn't using Chekov's gun in the literal sense, but until I have evidence otherwise, why would I assume differently?

[Charlz Guybon]

Chapter 30 - Mat and the Dark One's Own Luck

Chapter 31 - Thom says some of the Red Ajah still remember him

Chapter 32 - We have the suspicious Captain, and Rand's dreams of friends trying to kill him.

Chapter 33 - First sign of the Darkhounds

Chapter 34 - Gaul cites Aiel prophecy (We will be changed, and find again what was ours, and was lost)

Chapter 37 - A ton of dreams by Egwene

 

I think 30, 33 or 34  is most likely. Probably the Darkhounds, we keep seeing that huge pack and hearing how many there were in the Trolloc Wars, so I'm sure we'll see them in the last book.

[Arran]

In Lee Butler's spoiler-free review of AMoL, she gives a reaction to certain sections of the book. In one, she says something along the lines of "I didn't expect that, I haven't seen ______ since tGH?!"

If anybody or anything fits the Chekov's gun criteria, I think it's something or someone from tGH.

[herid]

I think this thread should be moved to the AMOL forum and merged with this one which is active right now. It's getting kind of awkward discussing the subject here as it concerns AMOL predictions.

The idea from that thread is the following

 

in TDR, Ch 39 Egwene thinks this about Shara:

 

Much of Cairhien’s wealth had been built on the trade in ivory and perfumes and spices and, most of all, silk, from the lands beyond the Waste. ... According to Verin, not only had Cairhien’s trade across the Waste ended with the war, but those Cairhienin who ventured into the Waste now vanished. Verin claimed they were said to be “sold as animals” in the lands beyond the Waste, but not even she understood how a man or a woman could be sold.

 I don't think we've seen anybody yet  who's been sold into slavery in Shara and it would be a decent Chekov's gun if such a person does show up.

 

 

@Arran The Chekov's gun we are discussing is something that has been first mentioned in TDR ch 30-40, not from tGH.

 

 

It is quite possible that BS wasn't using Chekov's gun in the literal sense, but until I have evidence otherwise, why would I assume differently?

Mostly because there are really very few things in those chapters that would qualify as a Chekov's gun in a strict sense and also because BS has been known to be loose with terminology concerning foreshadowing, especially on twitter which is where this is coming from.

 

@Charlz Guybon  Most of these have been suggested before but BS said that the Chekov's gun in question is not a very big one which should disqualify some of your suggestions.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Now, to fire a gun that has been sitting on the mantle since the middle (chapters 30-40) of book 3.

TEREZ

 

Now THAT is a good clue. (The Mat one was not incredibly surprising, but this one will be fun.)

TEREZ

 

Want to discuss @BrandSanderson's latest A Memory of Light clue? It's a good one!

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Theoryland thread on what I just posted: http://www.theorylan...read.php?t=6057 Thanks @Terez27.

BEN KLUGE

 

Has anyone got close yet:) ?

TEREZ

 

Pfft, we've barely started yet.

BEN KLUGE

 

I know—but once we have got started the odds of possibly getting an answer drop from very low to zero.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Ha. I already flirt with giving away too much. I doubt you'll pull anything more from me for a while.

4TH AGE

 

I'm sure with how conscious you are of us examining your every word you checked, so are you SURE it's in those chapters?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

99% sure.

TEREZ

 

Would you at least confirm you're not talking about 13-13? You referenced that as a Chekhov's Gun before Towers of Midnight...

TEREZ

 

...and so the association is hard to shake. But it was introduced in The Dragon Reborn 22 and of course already showed up in Towers of Midnight.

TEREZ

 

And technically, you could be referring to that since we didn't actually see the turning. And 99%. :( ... ;)

BRANDON SANDERSON (5 OCTOBER)

 

Mat is so much fun to write. The trick, which is hard, is to get the right mix of humor & awesome. One without the other just isn't Mat.

TEREZ

 

Ahh, confirmation. And good luck with Mat. ;)

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Not sure what I'm confirming, but okay. On the thing I tweeted before, it's obviously NOT 13x13. It is cool, but smaller than that.

My first thought was that this refers to the Aiel prophecy from ch 34 implying that the Aiel returning to the Way of the Leaf. I'm sure this will happen but it doesn't qualify as being smaller that 13x13 turning IMO. Same with Mat's luck possibly being connected to the DO (ch 30) or Lanfear going back to the Light (ch 36).

Some smaller things that I think might be it apart from the Horn idea and from the slaves from Shara showing up.

• in ch 31 Thom tells the story of Mara and three foolish kings. Perhaps it means that one of the countries in Randlands will get rid of its king altogether and become a democracy. Not likely IMO.
• in ch 32 Thom jokes that Mat should "try telling the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks he should marry the Amyrlin Seat.” Even less likely but who knows. Gawyn will probably die, Berelain might die too and Egwene and Galad did like each other at one point.
• Egwene's dream in ch 37 about Perrin stepping willingly over the edge of a towering cliff while saying, “It must be done. I must learn to fly before I reach the bottom.” This one is quite vague and might have already happened but perhaps not.
• in ch 37 Egwene also had several dreams about herself and the Seanchan. This hasn't happened yet but definitely will.
• Egwene and Elayne possibly becoming first sisters (hinted at in ch 38). Very unlikely especially since Elayne is pregnant.
• Nynaeve jokes in ch 39 about the Heart of the Stone crumbling to dust. Might happen during the LB.

Most of these are not Chekov's guns in a strict sense but as I said, I don't want to discount them on that account.

[yoniy0]

herid, I don't think we need spoilers here, and the thread about Shara appears to have run its course.

 

However, if Daoine agrees, I'll take this thread to the spoiler board and merge them.

[DaoineSidhe]

If people would prefer to put it on the spoiler board, that's fine, although I don't know that any aMoL spoilers will be discussed in topic. However, as this is speculation abot aMoL, I understand the reasoning for moving, especially as someone else started a checkhovs gun topic there too. I will leave the decision to the moderators on which board this topic belongs in.

[DaoineSidhe]

@Herid:

 

Your other possibilities about the Chekov's guns:

 

-I agree about the Aiel turning back to the Way of the Leaf.  I think it has good merits as a theory, but as you said, that would be way bigger than 13x13'ing I think.

 

-Agree with Thom's Mara & 3 Foolish Kings 100%

 

-Has merits as you've pointed out, but I would definitely cringe if it occurred.  Otherwise agree

 

-Perrin Stepping over the edge.  I think this was probably Perrin's training in TAR, or possibly his rescue of Rand at Dumai's Wells, but if it isn't, is a real possibility

 

-Seanchan & Egwene working together:  Seems like this would be more important than 13x13'ing to me as well.  This would be a HUGE turning point in Egwene's character, and also possibly whatever Seanchan character it is that works with her.

 

-Egwene & Elayne becomming first sisters:  100% agree

 

-Heart of Stone crumbling to dust:  Is possible, I suppose, but talk about a really obscure & meaningless Chekov's gun...  I'd be disappointed with this.

 

Some other possibilities I've thought of, even if I do still really like the Orban & Furlan theory ;-P

 

-Mat playing the role of an assassin. From when he deals with the DFs on the boat from Tar Valon to Aringill & the captain's comments about him at that point

 

-Pulling people from their own normal sleep dreams into a part of TAR under someone elses' control.  Ishamael does this with some DFs while Perrin is prowling TAR with Hopper, and while we know it can be done, haven't really seen this really used to effect yet.

 

-Perrin possibly channeling.  I really don't like the idea of Perrin channeling, but when he tell's Moiraine about the wolf dream, for some reason she decides to go on at length about how Perrin doesn't need to worry about suddenly starting to channel.

[herid]

 

 

-Pulling people from their own normal sleep dreams into a part of TAR under someone elses' control.  Ishamael does this with some DFs while Perrin is prowling TAR with Hopper, and while we know it can be done, haven't really seen this really used to effect yet.

Ishy used it already in that scene so I don't think that qualifies.

 

-Perrin possibly channeling.  I really don't like the idea of Perrin channeling, but when he tell's Moiraine about the wolf dream, for some reason she decides to go on at length about how Perrin doesn't need to worry about suddenly starting to channel.

I really don't think we need to worry about that.

[DaoineSidhe]

I really don't think we need to worry about that.

I tend to agree, but when I re-read that section, it seemed really strange how Moiraine spends all this time talking about Perrin and channeling together.  If I were going to bet on one of the bigger characters starting to channel all of a sudden, I'd definitely go with Thom.