Book 11 - Rands Eye's

[TimWA]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but I was wondering what people think is wrong with Rand's eyes after taking the fireball to the hand from semirhage that nynaeve can't heal.

[Guest Majsju]

They are damaged by having a fireball explode just a few decimeters in front of them. Exposure to bright light causes the exact symptoms Rand complains about.

 

Nynaeve does not dare to try to Heal them because she does not know exactly what the problem is, and thus any tampering can do more harm, ie Rand going completely blind instead of just being very sensitive to light as he is now.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sweet. Maj used "decimeters" in a regular conversation!

 

I personally think (as I've said elsewhere) that Rand will go completely blind before Tar'mon Gaidon, probably as a result of the damage sustained in this incident. One of Perrin's wolf dreams (in The Shadow Rising, chapter 53 The Price of a Departure) sees Rand as a beggar, with a bandage covering his eyes. Also, the Fisher icon in shah'rah (described by Moridin in the Prologue to The Path of Daggers) is described as having a blindfold or bandage around his eyes.

[Zardi]

I agree with Maj about the injury.

 

However, a bandage indicates something temporary to me: a temporary blindness, perhaps, or an injury that needs to be healed (as Rand has received). Bandages can be removed when the healing is completed and they are no longer needed. I think that if Moridin's Fisher icon were supposed to lead us to believe that Rand would go completely blind, it would show something more permanent...perhaps eyes gouged out or sealed shut.

[RobertAlexWillis]

However, a bandage indicates something temporary to me: a temporary blindness, perhaps, or an injury that needs to be healed (as Rand has received).

 

Well ... I must politely disagree. When people were blind in many pre-industrial societies, wearing a bandage around the eyes was a common practice. Sort of the equivalent of wearing dark glasses, as some blind people in modern times choose to do. The two things that made it into the Fisher icon, the wound in his side and the blindfold/bandage, indicate to me two serious conditions that last at least through the Last Battle.

 

Again, opinion only.

 

edit: changed blond to blind ... lol ... oops

[Mercer]

^ I'll agree with that. The bandage/cloth also provides a much clearer sign that he is/will be blind when looking at the fisher piece and in the wolf dream. If he indeed simply goes blind as opposed to having his eyes removed/destroyed, it can't very well be showed as such on the fisher piece or in the wolf dream.

 

Makes sense with the whole "The Dragon is one with the land" thing too, though that is easily debated other ways as well. Shame as it would be to see after all his sacrifice, I'm guessing we'll have a blind, one handed and One Power-less Rand al'Thor very much alive after Tarmon Gai'don.

[TimWA]

Thanks for the reply Majsju. At fist I initially thought the same as you, a result of the fireball being there. But that seems like definately something that Nynaeve would be able to heal.

 

I think Rands eye problems are something far more serious. I went digging around for when we first start to see something happening with his vision and it deals with when he and moridin crossed balefire bars, one of saidin and one with the True Power. This being the case, Nynaeve does not appear to know anything about the True Power nor conditions that arrise from Saidin colliding with it.

 

I dunno just a thought...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Given the fact that before the fireball blew his hand off, he could see fine, and immediately after that, he had serious problems, I don't really see how it can be anything else. Unless you're claiming that a previous problem simply manifested itself at the exact same time that the fireball blew up? That seems .... very unlikely.

 

Is there a reason that it needs to be more than the effect of having a fireball blow up decimeters (that's so fun) from his face?

[TimWA]

I dont have the book in front of me to check right now but from what I remember (and I definately could not be right on this) it just seemed like the way Nynaeve said it, it seemed like a condition already there.

 

Ok i healed you from the fireball. There is the wound thats bad and your eyes have something wrong with them as well that I am afraid to try and heal.

 

Too bad the books arent online :( Anyone have the passage available?

[Thor]

Again I must ask, before the Samirhage incident, when was the last time Nynaeve delved Rand?

[El Dude]

If you remember in the Eye of the World Mat was temporarily blind by the lightning strike and he wore a scarf around his eyes for a while until the sensitivity (don't know if I spelled that right) went away.

[V1zharan]

I disagree with him going blind, he is maimed enough, having one hand and having a madman trying to seize the power, which is the cause of his lost hand, he goes to seize the power and LTT tries taking it and the result is not getting it at all/getting it too late. I just dont see RJ making him blind, 1-handed, and having a madman trying to take over his mind.(No where does it say LTT is trying to take over, but he seems to be gaining strength in Rand's head, such as trying to take the power, and almost succeeding, so I see it as a gradual attempt to take over Rand.)

 

~V1zharan~

[Zardi]

Well ... I must politely disagree. When people were blind in many pre-industrial societies, wearing a bandage around the eyes was a common practice. Sort of the equivalent of wearing dark glasses, as some blind people in modern times choose to do. The two things that made it into the Fisher icon, the wound in his side and the blindfold/bandage, indicate to me two serious conditions that last at least through the Last Battle.

 

Again, opinion only.

Why would Rand go completely blind? I looked up several kinds of eye injuries caused by bright light, and the severity can vary quite a bit, from a temporary effect lasting only minutes, to a permanent loss of vision. In none of the sources did it say that these conditions actually get worse, however. If you find one saying otherwise, please let me know.

 

Rand has enough wrong with him already without adding complete, permanent blindness to the list. We've only got one book left to go, and Rand has to be fit enough to fight the Last Battle before the end of it. How can he be, if he ends up completely blind? I realize that in the real world, blind people learn to adapt. However, even if Rand could adapt well enough to fight with the OP using only his other four senses, there is not time in one book for him to do so. Unless Luckers is right and Rand gets Moridin's body before TG, then Rand needs to start getting better -- or at least fail to get a lot worse -- both physically and emotionally.

 

Also only opinion, I suppose, but mine makes more sense to me ;) As always, we'll have to RAFO. Don't you love it?

 

Again I must ask, before the Samirhage incident, when was the last time Nynaeve delved Rand?

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. We know from Rand's point of view that his vision was fine before Semirhage's attack.

 

Ok i healed you from the fireball. There is the wound thats bad and your eyes have something wrong with them as well that I am afraid to try and heal.

Nynaeve did not heal Rand from the fireball. All she did was close the wound on Rand's arm, which was only one injury caused by the fireball. She did not do whole body healing.

 

I went digging around for when we first start to see something happening with his vision and it deals with when he and moridin crossed balefire bars, one of saidin and one with the True Power.

That's a separate issue, because Rand and Moridin catching glimpses of each other is not a vision problem as such.

 

Edit: TimWA, here is the passage.

Ignoring the turmoil, Nynaeve gathered her skirts in bloodied hands and hurried to Rand. "Oh, Rand," she said when she saw his arm, "I'm so sorry. I....I'll do what I can, but I can't fix it the way it was." Her eyes were filled with anguish.

 

Wordlessly, he held out his left arm. It throbbed with agony. Strangely, he could still feel his hand. It seemed he should be able to make a fist with the fingers that were no longer there. His goose bumps intensified as she drew more deeply on saidar, the tendrils of smoke vanished from his cuff, and she gripped his arm above the wrist. His entire arm began tingling, and the pain drained away. Slowly, blackened skin was replaced by smooth skin that seemed to ooze down until it covered the small lump that had been the base of his hand. It was a miraculous thing to see. The scarlet-and-gold scaled dragon grew back, too, as much as it could, ending in a bit of golden mane. He could still feel the whole hand.

 

"I'm so sorry," Nynaeve said again. "Let me delve you for any other injuries." She asked, but did not wait, of course. She reached up to cup his head between her hands, and a chill ran through him. "There's something wrong with your eyes," she said with a frown. "I'm afraid to try fixing that without studying on it. The smallest mistake could blind you. How well can you see? How many fingers am I holding up?"

 

"Two. I can see fine," he lied. The black flecks were gone, but everything still seemed seen through water, and he wanted to squint against a sun that appeared to glare ten times brighter than it had. The old wounds in his side were knotted with pain.

--from KoD, pages 644-645

 

Nynaeve then goes on to try healing the never-healing wounds, but of course fails.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why would Rand go completely blind? I looked up several kinds of eye injuries caused by bright light, and the severity can vary quite a bit, from a temporary effect lasting only minutes, to a permanent loss of vision. In none of the sources did it say that these conditions actually get worse, however. If you find one saying otherwise, please let me know.

 

I think you're forgetting that a fireball is not just bright light, it is also intense heat and explosive pressure. Just one of the things that can be caused by this is angle-recession glaucoma, caused when an increase in IOP (interocular pressure, that is, pressure within the eyeball) causes damage to the optic nerve.

 

from: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/angle_recession_glaucoma/article_em.htm

 

Glaucoma is usually high pressure inside the eye that damages the optic nerve and can result in permanent vision loss. Not all 3 criteria (that is, high pressure inside the eye, optic nerve damage, and vision loss) are required to diagnose glaucoma; however, a diagnosis of glaucoma is often determined when all 3 criteria are present.

 

Angle recession glaucoma is a type of traumatic glaucoma. It is classified as a traumatic, secondary open-angle glaucoma. This means that the open-angle glaucoma occurs due to a specific cause, in this case a traumatic event. Angle recession, with or without a diagnosis of glaucoma, commonly results after the eye experiences blunt trauma.

 

Explosive compression is equivalent to blunt trauma in enclosed liquid mediums (like an eyeball). Its not the bright light, but the explosive force that may well have permanently damaged Rand's eyes. And glaucoma is hardly the only form of damage that could have been done.

 

Also, there is the more grim possibility that Nynaeve will try to Heal him after studying it a bit, screw up, and blind him herself, as she feared she might. That would certainly happen if Jordan let GRRM at the manuscript .... :D .

 

Unless Luckers is right and Rand gets Moridin's body before TG, then Rand needs to start getting better -- or at least fail to get a lot worse -- both physically and emotionally.

 

Thats assuming he's going to make it through Tarmon Gai'don. Last I heard its going to kill him.

 

Again I must ask, before the Samirhage incident, when was the last time Nynaeve delved Rand?

 

Zardi is right, that it doesn't matter, because Rand's own POV says his vision is fine, but for reference, it is in the Tear, just before they enter the Stone and talk to Darlin. This takes place in Chapter 21, Within the Stone, and it is the last Rand POV chapter before the encounter with Semirhage. So, as far as Rand's POVs are concerned, Nynaeve checked him almost immediately before this incident, and mentioned nothing about his eyes.

 

As far as "Rand's had enough, poor guy, this can't go wrong too ..." ... sorry guys, its gonna get worse before it gets better, for the simple reason that the story hasn't climaxed yet. If the eyes weren't going to be an issue, why the prophecies about the blindfold all the way back to book one? How does the memory of the blindfold make it through an entire cycle of the Wheel to be on the Fisher shah'rah piece if its just temporary? As far as the level of importance in the icon, the eye problem is given the same level of attention as the wound in his side.

 

I really, really think Rand is going blind.

[Zardi]

Thats assuming he's going to make it through Tarmon Gai'don. Last I heard its going to kill him.

Bah. I said nothing about what will happen after Tarmon Gai'don. I said that he has to be fit enough to fight and win the Last Battle, not be alive and healthy afterwards.

 

I did not know that an injury could cause glaucoma, so what you say is a possibility. In the real world, "of those eyes with angle recession, very few (reportedly 0-20%) develop glaucoma." With the imagery of the fisher piece, Rand's chances are probably higher than that :P However, I still have to come back to: how can he fight TG if he's blind? I think that if Rand does go blind, then the body swap must also occur, because I can't see Rand fighting the last battle in his condition. If you can see him doing it, then please share your theory as to how.

 

Also, Rand would not need to be completely blind in order for his loss of vision to severely hamper his effectiveness as a channeler. He is not very specific about what he can and can't see: he correctly identifies people he sees, but these are people he is familiar with, or people he saw directly before the incident, so he knows more obvious things...like what color clothes they are wearing...that help him make identifications. He does say that everything "seemed seen through water." If I correctly remember the last time I was in a pool without goggles, my vision was extremely hazy under water, very similar to (or worse than) my vision now if I'm not wearing glasses. Even if Rand's vision does not deteriorate further, he could be left with such poor distance vision that he is as good as blind, as far as channeling is concerned. I mean, if I'm not wearing my glasses or contacts, and if someone is standing a distance from me with clothes that roughly match their surroundings, then I can't even tell that someone is standing there, much less be able to identify them. Rand's vision now could be worse than my uncorrected vision, leaving him useless for such things as One Power battles, yet without leaving him completely blind.

 

I'm...not sure if that helps my case or hurts it, but I thought I'd throw it out there nonetheless.

[Kaznen]

Of course when something is dreamed and/or foretold it ALWAYS happens EXACTLY like the dream and/foretelling depicted it.

 

I think Rand vision problem could be simplyly solved by a trip to his favorite lensmaker. The guy put him in a dark room with this thing in front of his face....

 

*click*

"beter, or worse?"

*click*

[Thor]

Again I must ask' date=' before the Samirhage incident, when was the last time Nynaeve delved Rand?[/quote']

 

You do realize that whatever is wrong with his eye, it must have happened between the fireball and the last time Nynaeve delved him right?

 

So why is no one even bothering with my question?

 

You are just throwing wild guesses, why not try to eliminate some?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You do realize that whatever is wrong with his eye, it must have happened between the fireball and the last time Nynaeve delved him right?

 

So why is no one even bothering with my question?

 

Um, I answered it Thor ... right here:

 

 

This takes place in Chapter 21, Within the Stone, and it is the last Rand POV chapter before the encounter with Semirhage. So, as far as Rand's POVs are concerned, Nynaeve checked him almost immediately before this incident, and mentioned nothing about his eyes.

 

 

Now then ...

 

for Zardi:

 

I did not know that an injury could cause glaucoma, so what you say is a possibility. In the real world, "of those eyes with angle recession, very few (reportedly 0-20%) develop glaucoma."

 

While thats true, glaucoma is only one possibility of several, and being ta'veren doesn't always work in Rand's favor. Also, I would imagine that in the real world, people who have fireballs explode right next to their face hard enough to blow their hand off might fall into that 20%.

 

However, I still have to come back to: how can he fight TG if he's blind? I think that if Rand does go blind, then the body swap must also occur, because I can't see Rand fighting the last battle in his condition. If you can see him doing it, then please share your theory as to how.

 

I don't think Rand is going to personally do much of the fighting at Tarmon Gai'don. Thats why he's gathered armies and Asha'man, thats why he needs Perrin and Mat and Egwene and all the rest. If he were going to go in healthy, Choedan Kal in his fist, he could personally mop the floor with the armies of the Shadow, he wouldn't need anyone else. With just the male Choedan Kal he could sneeze and kill a million Trollocs, wave his hand and smash all the Forsaken in an instant.

 

I think whatever Rand does at the Last Battle will be something only he can do (not something any channeler with the same Power could do), and that it will cost him the last strength in his beaten down, almost broken body and spirit. I personally think he's going to have to die, go into the Dark One's prison, and hold him there while the Pattern (using Mat and Perrin's ta'veren strength) heals the Bore behind him. He doesn't need a body for that. Its not his strength in the Power on the slopes of Shayol Ghul that saves everyone, its his blood. His death is the key to his victory. So going in beat up isn't a problem.

 

note: edited for clarity

[Thor]

Sorry, I missed that. :(

 

Then there is no question, it is definitely the fireball effect that's damaged his eyes.

[Mercer]

Seems to me most who argue against Rand going blind do so because they don't want him to go blind

 

I don't either, but I think it seems pretty damn likely at this point. One wolfdream, one curious, mysterious foreshadow-ish gamepiece, and now a fireball to the eyes. Linked with the fact that RJ seems to love maiming him...

[V1zharan]

I don't think Rand is going to personally do much of the fighting at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I disagree, he's the bloody Dragon Reborn. Not only does he have to fight the Dark One(which I guess might be debatable), but just being him he's gonna have to fight. But going over to the blind side for a moment...haha, this is great. Some asha'man or aes sedai leading him through Shayol Goul(sp?) cause he cant see on his own, carefully steering him around the masses of trollocs and myddral(sp?) and who knows what else.

 

~V1zharan~

[Thor]

He'll be bloody alright. :lol:

[Mercer]

I don't think Rand is going to personally do much of the fighting at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I disagree' date=' he's the bloody Dragon Reborn. Not only does he have to fight the Dark One(which I guess might be debatable), but just being him he's gonna have to fight. But going over to the blind side for a moment...haha, this is great. Some asha'man or aes sedai leading him through Shayol Goul(sp?) cause he cant see on his own, carefully steering him around the masses of trollocs and myddral(sp?) and who knows what else.

 

~V1zharan~[/quote']

I actually gave a good chuckle at that, and quite like the idea. A blinded and maimed Rand being led through heaps of Trollocs and Myrddrral towards Shayol Ghul. God knows sight probably won't have much to do with combating (though I'm in the dark [no pun intended] as to actually *how* he will combat the DO) the Dark One, I think it has to come down to Rand at the end.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But going over to the blind side for a moment...haha, this is great. Some asha'man or aes sedai leading him through Shayol Goul(sp?) cause he cant see on his own, carefully steering him around the masses of trollocs and myddral(sp?) and who knows what else.

 

Actually, I sort of picture Min in that role. And I seriously think thats how its going to go down.

 

Not only does he have to fight the Dark One(which I guess might be debatable), but just being him he's gonna have to fight.

 

Actually, as the Dragon Reborn, he has two duties:

 

Unite the nations to fight Tarmon Gai'don, and

 

Do whatever it takes to reimprison the Dark One.

 

Neither of those involves personal fighting on a grand dramatic scale in the physical sense. The only reason Rand needed to be able to fight is to keep himself alive long enough to do the other, more important things. Mat is a better war-leader than he is now for a physical battle, and Perrin can cover whatever fighting needs to be done in Tel'aran'rhiod, if it comes to that. The Asha'man and Aes Sedai can do the channeling that needs to be done in battle. Rand isn't going to Tarmon Gai'don to fight, he's going in order to die.

 

Lets examine the Aelfinn's answer to his question. The question had two parts, and so did the answer.

 

Rand's question: How can I win the Last Battle(part 1) and survive (part 2)?

 

The Answer: The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die.

 

The first part is how to win the Last Battle. "The north and the east must be as one." Rand must unite nations of the east and the north, and if you look at what he's conquered, all he needs now are the borderlanders. "The west and the south must be as one." The Seanchan have kindly taken care of that for him. "The two must be as one." What's his last move before Tarmon Gai'don? Binding the Nine Moons to serve him. Unifying the two major coalitions of nations to fight the Last Battle. Thats how to win. Unite the nations, not go in, Power blazing.

 

The second part, how he can personally survive, is talking about his personal battle with the Dark One, and to win that, in order to survive, he has to die. Thats going to be Rand's part in Tarmon Gai'don. I say again, he's not going in order to fight, he's going in order to die.

 

If there is going to be some impressive male channeling battle-wise at Tarmon Gai'don, its likely to come from Logain and Narishma. Logain has glory coming, and Narishma has Callandor, and a way to safely use it.

 

Don't misunderstand me, Rand's battle with the Dark One is pivotal, vital to the victory. But he doesn't need a strong body to die in. Sacrificial heroes do not always approach their final heroic sacrifice in heroic shape.

[The Dalai Lamo]

Strange that nobody mentioned the title of the last book: A Memory of Light...