Ta'veren-ness bugs me

[Agitel]

Maybe we should put a cork in the Jordan vs Sanderson debate in this topic now. Otherwise we risk pages of this.

[Jason Williams]

Maybe we should put a cork in the Jordan vs Sanderson debate in this topic now. Otherwise we risk pages of this.

 

Oops. Sorry, I suppose I should have seen that coming.

[Wool-headed lummox]

The point being David is that it has to be possible in the first place. We know that without question. So yes someone else very well could have received the same reaction, the odds just wouldn't have been as good.

The point is that taverenism makes extremely unlikely probabilities (think one to one billion) come true regardless of the person's knowledge, skills, convictions, personality, or amount of effort invested. A taveren makes a half-hearted suggestion, and the person instantly blurts out their most repressed secrets, because the plot needs them to. What a wonderful power for any well-written character to have, sarcasm.

[Amandera]

Sigh, maybe it's cuz I keep hoping that everything is like Death Note. In that series, everything had rigid, set in stone rules. You CAN do this, you CAN'T do that. Here are the rules, BAM, here ya go.

 

I find it frustrating to read a series where luck helps the maing characters sometimes and doesn't at other times. With no real reason for why their power fails them given.

The way I see it, you are just refusing to accept its rules because ta'veren does have rules and they are not a big secret. Read the books and read the interviews, it's all out there. Or read here if you want the simple outlines.

 

For your questions:

 

1.) Does being Ta'veren control people's minds? Why could Perrin convince the Two Rivers to fight back and not Verin? What about him being Ta'veren alters what he's saying? Or does it mess with the minds of the people he's talking to? In either case, then why doesn't it work on the villains? How come Rand couldn't intimidate Ba'alzamon enough to flee from him back in book 1 or 2 if he's so insanely strong in his Ta'veren-ness?

Ta'veren does not control people's minds. Occasionally you say "screw work, I wanna stay home today". You would do that maybe one time in a hundred under normal circumstances for whatever reasons. With a ta'veren around, if that's what the Pattern needs, it becomes much more likely. It has no control over people's minds.

Why would Ishamael be afraid of a farmboy. Rand has no idea how to channel at that point and Ishamael is strongest a person could be (same as Rand) with a thousand years of experience.

Why doesn't Rand scare him away? Two reasons: A) It would never ever in a million year happen under normal circumstances. B) It is not what the Pattern needs.

 

2.) It's stated that Rand messes with probability just by existing within an area. People fall from insane heights and live wheras other people abruptly trip over their own feet and die. Why doesn't this ever happen to the chosen? To someone like Lanfear? Lanfear could just arrive, trip over her own dress and die.

It happened, literally in the first fight of the series, with Narg the Genius Trolloc. Because, A) It is something that could happen under normal circumstances, being a fight in a narrow space with lots of furnitures to trip over. B) The Pattern needed Rand to live.

Why doesn't it happen to Lanfear? A) She is simply too careful not to trip over her skirts. B) Pattern needs Lanfear.

 

3.) Why do these uncontrolable luck fluctuations ala the kind of stuff I mentioned above even happen anyway? Isn't Ta'veren a system spawned from the Pattern itself to counter the Shadow's grip on the pattern? Why is it so horribly inefficient?

Time is circular. What was once, will be again. The Pattern has a predetermined course it needs to take. The Wheel is the mechanism that controls this course. The course could go wrong due to people's free will, the Dark One or some other reason I can't think of. It is not solely for the Shadow. To maintain the proper course of the Pattern, the Wheel has tools it can use to alter it, ta'veren is one, Heroes of the Horn is another and possibly other things that I don't know of.

How the hell do you figure ta'veren is inefficient? It is seemingly random, yes, because it uses random events to its benefit. It alters chance. It works by what appear to be coincidences. Except there are no coincidences around ta'veren. They are what the Wheel wills.

 

4.) Rand just happened to be in the right place at the right time to overhear details about Salidar. Why doesn't this happen with things like Demandred's or Sammael's armies?

Rand occasionally checks on Callandor. Egwene always has her meetings with her friends in the Heart of the Stone. By coincidence these to event happen at the same time. Why doesn't he learn where Demandred is? Because Demandred never blabbers his plans where Rand is known to frequent. Very unlike the situation with Egwene.

 

How do you fight someone who's Ta'veren? Where's the tension?

You chop his head off, or shoot a giant fireball at him. Why do they fail? Because all our ta'veren are very good fighters. And that has nothing to do with ta'veren. That's competence. If you're going to leave it up to something affected by chance. Like shooting them with arrows from a hundred meters, it is likely to fail. Because ta'veren, in a nutshell, are lucky. It might succeed, but not likely.

 

Forgive me if my tone is a little rough.

[Jason Williams]

So why is it we see or hear of no female Ta'veren?

[Amandera]

We do. There is Mabriam en Shereed.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/mabriam.html

[Benganza]

 

4.) Rand just happened to be in the right place at the right time to overhear details about Salidar. Why doesn't this happen with things like Demandred's or Sammael's armies?

Rand occasionally checks on Callandor. Egwene always has her meetings with her friends in the Heart of the Stone. By coincidence these to event happen at the same time. Why doesn't he learn where Demandred is? Because Demandred never blabbers his plans where Rand is known to frequent. Very unlike the situation with Egwene.

Ta'vereness has a limited range, so this event isn't necessary Ta'veren induced. We know strange things happen when he enters a City but not how far this reaches, probably not much more than half a mile

[EmperorAllspice]

Sigh, maybe it's cuz I keep hoping that everything is like Death Note. In that series, everything had rigid, set in stone rules. You CAN do this, you CAN'T do that. Here are the rules, BAM, here ya go.

 

I find it frustrating to read a series where luck helps the maing characters sometimes and doesn't at other times. With no real reason for why their power fails them given.

The way I see it, you are just refusing to accept its rules because ta'veren does have rules and they are not a big secret. Read the books and read the interviews, it's all out there. Or read here if you want the simple outlines.

 

For your questions:

 

1.) Does being Ta'veren control people's minds? Why could Perrin convince the Two Rivers to fight back and not Verin? What about him being Ta'veren alters what he's saying? Or does it mess with the minds of the people he's talking to? In either case, then why doesn't it work on the villains? How come Rand couldn't intimidate Ba'alzamon enough to flee from him back in book 1 or 2 if he's so insanely strong in his Ta'veren-ness?

Ta'veren does not control people's minds. Occasionally you say "screw work, I wanna stay home today". You would do that maybe one time in a hundred under normal circumstances for whatever reasons. With a ta'veren around, if that's what the Pattern needs, it becomes much more likely. It has no control over people's minds.

Why would Ishamael be afraid of a farmboy. Rand has no idea how to channel at that point and Ishamael is strongest a person could be (same as Rand) with a thousand years of experience.

Why doesn't Rand scare him away? Two reasons: A) It would never ever in a million year happen under normal circumstances. B) It is not what the Pattern needs.

 

2.) It's stated that Rand messes with probability just by existing within an area. People fall from insane heights and live wheras other people abruptly trip over their own feet and die. Why doesn't this ever happen to the chosen? To someone like Lanfear? Lanfear could just arrive, trip over her own dress and die.

It happened, literally in the first fight of the series, with Narg the Genius Trolloc. Because, A) It is something that could happen under normal circumstances, being a fight in a narrow space with lots of furnitures to trip over. B) The Pattern needed Rand to live.

Why doesn't it happen to Lanfear? A) She is simply too careful not to trip over her skirts. B) Pattern needs Lanfear.

 

3.) Why do these uncontrolable luck fluctuations ala the kind of stuff I mentioned above even happen anyway? Isn't Ta'veren a system spawned from the Pattern itself to counter the Shadow's grip on the pattern? Why is it so horribly inefficient?

Time is circular. What was once, will be again. The Pattern has a predetermined course it needs to take. The Wheel is the mechanism that controls this course. The course could go wrong due to people's free will, the Dark One or some other reason I can't think of. It is not solely for the Shadow. To maintain the proper course of the Pattern, the Wheel has tools it can use to alter it, ta'veren is one, Heroes of the Horn is another and possibly other things that I don't know of.

How the hell do you figure ta'veren is inefficient? It is seemingly random, yes, because it uses random events to its benefit. It alters chance. It works by what appear to be coincidences. Except there are no coincidences around ta'veren. They are what the Wheel wills.

 

4.) Rand just happened to be in the right place at the right time to overhear details about Salidar. Why doesn't this happen with things like Demandred's or Sammael's armies?

Rand occasionally checks on Callandor. Egwene always has her meetings with her friends in the Heart of the Stone. By coincidence these to event happen at the same time. Why doesn't he learn where Demandred is? Because Demandred never blabbers his plans where Rand is known to frequent. Very unlike the situation with Egwene.

 

How do you fight someone who's Ta'veren? Where's the tension?

You chop his head off, or shoot a giant fireball at him. Why do they fail? Because all our ta'veren are very good fighters. And that has nothing to do with ta'veren. That's competence. If you're going to leave it up to something affected by chance. Like shooting them with arrows from a hundred meters, it is likely to fail. Because ta'veren, in a nutshell, are lucky. It might succeed, but not likely.

 

Forgive me if my tone is a little rough.

 

I'm just not a fan of the "The Pattern is just using the villains like it's using the main characters" theory. It just adds to the foregone conclusion notion that I dislike so much. I need to think that there's some way that the pattern can fail to right itself and for it to be destroyed. Maybe that goes against what RJ said, but if it helps me enjoy the series, then so be it

[Suttree]

I'm just not a fan of the "The Pattern is just using the villains like it's using the main characters" theory. It just adds to the foregone conclusion notion that I dislike so much. I need to think that there's some way that the pattern can fail to right itself and for it to be destroyed. Maybe that goes against what RJ said, but if it helps me enjoy the series, then so be it

 

You should think that as nowhere is it said the DO can't win/pattern can't be destroyed. It doesn't go against what RJ said in the slightest...

[EmperorAllspice]

But if the Pattern is using the villains, then why is it manipulating them towards events that will bring about the pattern's own destruction? It also means that every action that the Forsaken have taken and come up with has been pre-destined

[Benganza]

The pattern is no omnipotent entity or even sentient, it has a predefined path it follows but how it reaches the goal is random and shaped by the free will of its population . Think of it as a rubber band, you can stretch it a bit and it will eventually return to its original form but stretch it to far and it will rip apart. And the Dark one is outside the pattern and the more he gains his freedom the more he will stretch the pattern.

[driedraspberry]

So why is it we see or hear of no female Ta'veren?

 

Egwene would've been a logical choice. I find it kind of weird that she and Nyn are every bit the super special snowflakes as the trio, born in the same village but not ta'veren. Like what's the point? If the guys have a basis for their super duper specialness the girls might as well.

[EmperorAllspice]

But what are the Forsaken in all this? A chapter called them "Threads woven in Shadow"

 

I tend to think of their threads as being tainted, and therefore immune to direct Ta'veren interferance and control. and gives them the power to move against the Pattern's design.

 

Artur Hawkwing was led to ruin by Ishamael's meddling, and he was meant to reunite the world again. So the pattern failed on that count.

 

All purely speculation on my part, but if I have to put up with any more "This is all going according to the pattern's design" mallarky then I'm gonna end up screaming XD

[Benganza]

The DO seeks to destroy the pattern and needs the Forsaken to achieve his goals since he can't freely interact with the pattern, yet. But he can change some things here and there. Also the goals of the DO and the goals of the Forsaken aren't necessarily the same

 

The Wheel creates the pattern and spins out Ta'veren and heroes to correct flaws in the system which could lead to it's destruction. Mess to much with the pattern and it will unravel. Which almost happened in the AoL when both sides used bale fire to eradicate whole cities so they stopped. If the Wheel would rip out all threads which are corrupted by the DO, the pattern would unravel. If the Wheel would create a volcano under every Trolloc army, the pattern would unravel etc.

 

And as you have seen with Hawkwing it can fail.

[Amandera]

I'm just not a fan of the "The Pattern is just using the villains like it's using the main characters" theory. It just adds to the foregone conclusion notion that I dislike so much. I need to think that there's some way that the pattern can fail to right itself and for it to be destroyed. Maybe that goes against what RJ said, but if it helps me enjoy the series, then so be it

It's hardly a theory. All the creation is part of the Pattern. Everyone and everything has a role in it.

 

Once again, ta'veren can fail. Lews Therin was ta'veren. How would you describe War of the Power and the Breaking? A victory, defeat or draw? On one hand civilization goes from a utopia to a world constantly plagued by war and famine, on the other the entire creation is saved from destruction. There are levels of victory for both sides

.

But if the Pattern is using the villains, then why is it manipulating them towards events that will bring about the pattern's own destruction? It also means that every action that the Forsaken have taken and come up with has been pre-destined

See here for Fate vs Free Will. It is not spoiler-free:

http://13depository....ng-pattern.html

 

But what are the Forsaken in all this? A chapter called them "Threads woven in Shadow"

 

I tend to think of their threads as being tainted, and therefore immune to direct Ta'veren interferance and control. and gives them the power to move against the Pattern's design.

Their threads are same as others. And I doubt they are given protection against ta'veren. Then again, DO has control over the Pattern when he can touch it, so it's possible

[EmperorAllspice]

I'm just not a fan of the "The Pattern is just using the villains like it's using the main characters" theory. It just adds to the foregone conclusion notion that I dislike so much. I need to think that there's some way that the pattern can fail to right itself and for it to be destroyed. Maybe that goes against what RJ said, but if it helps me enjoy the series, then so be it

It's hardly a theory. All the creation is part of the Pattern. Everyone and everything has a role in it.

 

Once again, ta'veren can fail. Lews Therin was ta'veren. How would you describe War of the Power and the Breaking? A victory, defeat or draw? On one hand civilization goes from a utopia to a world constantly plagued by war and famine, on the other the entire creation is saved from destruction. There are levels of victory for both sides

.

But if the Pattern is using the villains, then why is it manipulating them towards events that will bring about the pattern's own destruction? It also means that every action that the Forsaken have taken and come up with has been pre-destined

See here for Fate vs Free Will. It is not spoiler-free:

http://13depository....ng-pattern.html

 

But what are the Forsaken in all this? A chapter called them "Threads woven in Shadow"

 

I tend to think of their threads as being tainted, and therefore immune to direct Ta'veren interferance and control. and gives them the power to move against the Pattern's design.

Their threads are same as others. And I doubt they are given protection against ta'veren. Then again, DO has control over the Pattern when he can touch it, so it's possible

 

Then that means that there's no point in reading since everything is pre-determined. The villains will win when the pattern wants them to win and they'll lose when the pattern wants them to lose.

 

THAT is the thing I despie

[Suttree]

Then that means that there's no point in reading since everything is pre-determined.

 

Sigh.

 

You need to stop brushing explanation after explanation aside just so you can hold to a flawed perspective. It really is just willful ignorance at this point.

[Amandera]

Then that means that there's no point in reading since everything is pre-determined. The villains will win when the pattern wants them to win and they'll lose when the pattern wants them to lose.

 

THAT is the thing I despie

The main threat is the DO, which is outside of Pattern who wants to break it. He is the villain. He won in the past, it just never was the ultimate victory which is Pattern broken. I have no problem the universe being destroyed is no easy thing.

 

I don't understand the "there is no point reading" part. If you enjoy it, you read it, if not, you don't. Everything being pre-determined has nothing to do with it for me, since I don't know how it is pre-determined.

 

You seem to be looking for someone to make you enjoy the series. No one is going to be able do that.

 

My advice, read all the books. Then make up your mind if the series is one you'd recommend your friends and do re-reads. You are not even halfway through. If you can't bring yourself continue, then stop.

 

And keep this in mind: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=94#21

[Thrasymachus]

Of course it's pre-determined. Every bit of the plot and character development was pre-determined by the author. When the book's finally printed, it's not like the final pages change based on what you're reading now. Ta'veren just hangs a lampshade on the concept of "main characters" in the first place. You don't refuse to read other fantasy because you know that the final pages are immutable, you read it because you don't know what's in those pages. Ta'veren doesn't reveal anything that's going to happen, and it doesn't diminish any suspense, because it doesn't really do anything, at least not anything that doesn't already happen in every other fantasy novel. All it does is draw attention to the fact that these guys are "special" in a way that other fantasy novels typically don't, and it does it specifically to diminish the levels of suspension of disbelief needed to appreciate what happens to the main characters. In a way, Isam's summaries are quite apropos. Ta'veren just means "main character." Identifying to the main characters the fact that they are main characters doesn't diminish the tension and difficulties they have to face, if anything, it exacerbates them. Much of the books revolve around the three main characters trying to revolt against the fact that they are the main characters.

[EmperorAllspice]

Of course it's pre-determined. Every bit of the plot and character development was pre-determined by the author. When the book's finally printed, it's not like the final pages change based on what you're reading now. Ta'veren just hangs a lampshade on the concept of "main characters" in the first place. You don't refuse to read other fantasy because you know that the final pages are immutable, you read it because you don't know what's in those pages. Ta'veren doesn't reveal anything that's going to happen, and it doesn't diminish any suspense, because it doesn't really do anything, at least not anything that doesn't already happen in every other fantasy novel. All it does is draw attention to the fact that these guys are "special" in a way that other fantasy novels typically don't, and it does it specifically to diminish the levels of suspension of disbelief needed to appreciate what happens to the main characters. In a way, Isam's summaries are quite apropos. Ta'veren just means "main character." Identifying to the main characters the fact that they are main characters doesn't diminish the tension and difficulties they have to face, if anything, it exacerbates them. Much of the books revolve around the three main characters trying to revolt against the fact that they are the main characters.

 

I'm gonna hit the next person who uses this excuse, I swear to light XD

 

@Cem I care about the characters to the point where I don't want to quit, but I find it hard to have fun sometimes.

 

I want the villains to be competent. Hard for me to think of them as smart and cunning when all of their actions have already been taken into account by the pattern.

 

I can find ways around it, it just invlolves me not believing that everything is pre-determined.

[Amandera]

Alright, this has gotten ridiculuous.

 

1) Competence has absolutely nothing to do with fate.

2) Fate is a HUGE theme in this series, you can't just ignore it, you can't find ways around it.

3) You are making a lot of false assumptions about the world of Wheel of Time, and you are refusing to listen when people explain to you where you're wrong.

 

I'm saying this once again. Finish the books, read EWoT, 13th Depository, the interview database and WoT Wikia.

[Agitel]

Hard for me to think of them as smart and cunning when all of their actions have already been taken into account by the pattern.

 

I can find ways around it, it just invlolves me not believing that everything is pre-determined.

 

Nothing is pre-determined. The Wheel attemps to weave a general Pattern for an Age, but nothing is exactly the same and it doesn't have a strong influence on individual threads aside from ta'veren. The Wheel doesn't know the future. Think of it as a comple machine trying to extrapolate what will happen given the information it knows, but it doesn't know the future. It attempts to compensate based on the feedback it's given. The Forsaken are threads in the Pattern. Because of that, the Wheel gets some feedback from them and events around them can be affected by ta'veren to a degree (though I'm guessing that feedback and influence is blunted by their association with the Shadow...). However, the Wheel does not control their actions, nor is it able to predict them, nor are they acting in a pre-determined way.

[EmperorAllspice]

I don't understand people when they say I'm wrong. I don't get the points they're making.

 

The thing about Fate is that it makes it seem like Evil has no chance of winning since all of their actions are predestine by the Pattern

 

but then you say that the Dark One is outside the pattern and can touch it, but his minions ARE part of the pattern. Why would the pattern allow Team Shadow to ever succeed in any way unless the Dark One's touch can protect them from unknowingly following their predestined fates?

 

I keep feeling like I'm being confusing to people but I'm really not trying to be. I'm TRYING to understand people, but the explanations I hear are oftentimes contradictory

[EmperorAllspice]

Hard for me to think of them as smart and cunning when all of their actions have already been taken into account by the pattern.

 

I can find ways around it, it just invlolves me not believing that everything is pre-determined.

 

Nothing is pre-determined. The Wheel attemps to weave a general Pattern for an Age, but nothing is exactly the same and it doesn't have a strong influence on individual threads aside from ta'veren. The Wheel doesn't know the future. Think of it as a comple machine trying to extrapolate what will happen given the information it knows, but it doesn't know the future. It attempts to compensate based on the feedback it's given. The Forsaken are threads in the Pattern. Because of that, the Wheel gets some feedback from them and events around them can be affected by ta'veren to a degree (though I'm guessing that feedback and influence is blunted by their association with the Shadow...). However, the Wheel does not control their actions, nor is it able to predict them, nor are they acting in a pre-determined way.

 

See, now that's better.

[Dagon Thyne]

Basically, if something is possible, they make the odds of it happening go WAY up.

 

This can cause bad things, such as a person slip and break his neck and die, when he normally would not, or good things, such as the number of people getting married when Rand passes through villages.