Ta'veren-ness bugs me

[EmperorAllspice]

I can buy the villains being protected from Ta'veren-ness to an extent because of their connection to the dark one, that's fine.

 

But my issue with your weighted dice analogy is that therein STILL lies an element of arbitrariness. Because you're introducing luck into a story that has to be written by a person. Unless RJ rolled a weighted die and used it's results to write the story (Really, I want to know if he ever did that. Genuinely curious) then all the events of the story are still being controlled by him. When the story needs something bad to happen to Rand, something bad happens to him. Whenever something good needs to happen to Rand, something good happens to him. but I can't forget about these contrivances because the story is ramming it down my throat that it's happening because he's Ta'veren. It's not letting me distance myself from the knowledge that I'm reading a story.

[Agitel]

I can buy the villains being protected from Ta'veren-ness to an extent because of their connection to the dark one, that's fine.

 

But my issue with your weighted dice analogy is that therein STILL lies an element of arbitrariness. Because you're introducing luck into a story that has to be written by a person. Unless RJ rolled a weighted die and used it's results to write the story (Really, I want to know if he ever did that. Genuinely curious) then all the events of the story are still being controlled by him. When the story needs something bad to happen to Rand, something bad happens to him. Whenever something good needs to happen to Rand, something good happens to him. but I can't forget about these contrivances because the story is ramming it down my throat that it's happening because he's Ta'veren. It's not letting me distance myself from the knowledge that I'm reading a story.

 

Well, you know the rest of your post applies to any story. It's the matter of you being unable to distance yourself from "knowing" it's a novel. I'm not entirely sure whether there's a cure for that. The only thing that comes to mind is to say what I've already said but may not be apparent at this point in the series: this is all taken into account as more than a contrivance within the series as a whole. But I suppose that may not be enough for you.

[EmperorAllspice]

I can buy the villains being protected from Ta'veren-ness to an extent because of their connection to the dark one, that's fine.

 

But my issue with your weighted dice analogy is that therein STILL lies an element of arbitrariness. Because you're introducing luck into a story that has to be written by a person. Unless RJ rolled a weighted die and used it's results to write the story (Really, I want to know if he ever did that. Genuinely curious) then all the events of the story are still being controlled by him. When the story needs something bad to happen to Rand, something bad happens to him. Whenever something good needs to happen to Rand, something good happens to him. but I can't forget about these contrivances because the story is ramming it down my throat that it's happening because he's Ta'veren. It's not letting me distance myself from the knowledge that I'm reading a story.

 

Well, you know the rest of your post applies to any story. It's the matter of you being unable to distance yourself from "knowing" it's a novel. I'm not entirely sure whether there's a cure for that. The only thing that comes to mind is to say what I've already said but may not be apparent at this point in the series: this is all taken into account as more than a contrivance within the series as a whole. But I suppose that may not be enough for you.

 

But I can distance myself with almost every other series imaginable. Most series don't try to justify the protagonist's luck by drawing attention to it constantly. If you want to draw attention to it, that's fine. But if you make a system out of it, then I want a complete series of rules, restrictions, and laws laid out in front of me.

 

I compare to The One Power. Channeling in this series has a hard system of rules and restrictions that I can draw upon.

[TNine]

but that't it. I can suspend my disbelief that far. I do it all the time. By adding in this explanation it just leads me bback to my point. There's no tension and the system seems very vague in how it works. I go back to those 4 questions in my first post.

 

I don't buy that the villains can possibly win. The heroes are unstoppable because IN-UNIVERSE reality is shifting to help them and it just seems pointlessly arbitrary when it doesn't help them.

They are protected to an extent, but they are not invincible. The Pattern will protect them but the Dark One operates outside the Pattern, and anything he affects within the Pattern will distort the Pattern.

 

Luck does not make you invincible. Myraddhal are also supernaturally lucky (except when they are fighting Ta'veren). They can't be downed by a stray arrow, they will almost always escape by the hair of their teeth--when there is that much room to escape. Put them in an inescapable situation--or a near inescapable situation--and they'll die.

 

It's not much different than other archetypal fantasy books when you think about it--the only difference is that it is better explained in Wheel of Time. And you still don't know where the Pattern will take them. Rand won't die, but anything short of that is still fair game.

[EmperorAllspice]

It's not much different than other archetypal fantasy books when you think about it--the only difference is that it is better explained in Wheel of Time.

 

I still don't see how an explanation makes it BETTER. Light, can people stop saying this. I don't get it! In other series, the luck is a non-issue. For me, it's a non-issue. Things happen, cuz that's how the story unfolds. The story doesn't expect me to believe that the main characters are superhumanly lucky.

 

GOd, I feel like I'm being ganged up on

[TNine]

It's not much different than other archetypal fantasy books when you think about it--the only difference is that it is better explained in Wheel of Time.

 

I still don't see how an explanation makes it BETTER. Light, can people stop saying this. I don't get it! In other series, the luck is a non-issue. For me, it's a non-issue. Things happen, cuz that's how the story unfolds. The story doesn't expect me to believe that the main characters are superhumanly lucky.

 

GOd, I feel like I'm being ganged up on

It's meta. Kinda an observation on how protagonists work in fantasy, and sometimes how it works in real life too. In WoT, the universe itself is weaving stories, and the ta'veren are the protagonists of those stories. In a way, it is like Discworld in that respect--the story gets told again and again, and the players have little choice in the matter. Except in WoT it is much less powerful and much more serious.

 

Better? I don't know about better. It's a part of the book. You can disagree with some of the base tenets of the universe and still enjoy the story--i hate the idea that time travels in a wheel and i still enjoyed the books.

[mbuehner]

One of the major, if not THE major, themes of the book is fate, and what that means. We see all types of different prophecy, some appear to be absolutely determinative, others perhaps not. Ta'veren is an exploration of this (much like reading a history of somebody like Napoleon and wondering how on earth he got to where he was, from where he started. If it was fiction it would be absurd). Its fine, I suppose, to dislike this exploration. But its more of saying you dislike the subject matter rather than saying it is badly written. Jordan deliberately decided to explore this, its not pulled out of a hat as a tool to tell the story he wants to tell, it IS the story he wanted to tell.

[EmperorAllspice]

The problem is that I read a story because I want the villains to be competent. Hard for them to be competent when reality is bending to help the main characters and only doesn't help them when it's convenient to the plot.

 

You saying it's possible to completely block the term "Ta'veren" from my brain and ignore every instance of it's use in the story?

 

The idea is that it's possible for the Dark One to win. How when he's up against forces like the Ta'veren?

[mbuehner]

The problem is that I read a story because I want the villains to be competent. Hard for them to be competent when reality is bending to help the main characters and only doesn't help them when it's convenient to the plot.

 

You saying it's possible to completely block the term "Ta'veren" from my brain and ignore every instance of it's use in the story?

 

The idea is that it's possible for the Dark One to win. How when he's up against forces like the Ta'veren?

 

It becomes pretty apparent that the DO is only marginally interested in having competent underlings. That's not how the Last Battle is going to go down, and a big part of the subtext of of the books is that both sides are increasingly distracted by issues that arent going to affect the Last Battle. If that's not the story you wanted, that's understandable. But its really a question of taste. There are a million books out there about this hero vs that bad guy and who will prevail in the end (spoiler alert- the Hero will). I think Jordan is exploring something bigger and in my opinion more interesting. A lot will depend on how the series ends, obviously.

[Morden]

To put it nicely, if they were not Ta'veren they would not have survived a month out of the Two Rivers. It may be hard to believe at times but you seem to be forgetting that the Chosen are all pound for pound incredibly powerful, sneaky and nasty. They use compulsion freely which is a forcible method of controlling people. Ta'veren can allow the light side to have people who gather for them for whatever reason makes sense to them.

 

It's an interesting plot method, sometimes overly strong but it is better than a lot of the alternatives and actually allows the author to play on this and make their enemies far more dangerous.

 

It isnt like the whole basis of the novels are set around it though, Arthur Hawking united all of randland because of how strongly Ta'veren he was, it allowed him to turn enemies into allies, to win the battles he needed...

 

Even in our own history there have been incredibly charismatic and effective leaders who do the extraordinary and have such a massive impact on the world, Alexander the Great, Temujin, Atilla the Hun... it goes on throughout our whole history. And most of them end up having amazing luck for a while but all in all it doesnt always end well for them. Whats to say that they were not nexus points(Ta'veren equivelent) as well?

[Morden]

The problem is that I read a story because I want the villains to be competent. Hard for them to be competent when reality is bending to help the main characters and only doesn't help them when it's convenient to the plot.

 

You saying it's possible to completely block the term "Ta'veren" from my brain and ignore every instance of it's use in the story?

 

The idea is that it's possible for the Dark One to win. How when he's up against forces like the Ta'veren?

 

Ta'veren also makes them easier to track, the dark side can find them because of their very nature. The funny thing is and what I dont see you seeing or mentioning is that even with Ta'veren giving them a boost, most of the time they survive by the skin of their teeth. Without it they could not survive. No ifs, no buts, done deal.

[TNine]

...who told you that the story is good because the villains are competent? Ishy and the DO are competent, and often the Forsaken can manage in-house pretty well, but they are often so busy squabbling and in-fighting and too full of themselves to be an actual threat. They serve their purpose in creating problems, but they don't really pose a huge threat on their own.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

...who told you that the story is good because the villains are competent? Ishy and the DO are competent, and often the Forsaken can manage in-house pretty well, but they are often so busy squabbling and in-fighting and too full of themselves to be an actual threat. They serve their purpose in creating problems, but they don't really pose a huge threat on their own.

 

 

My friend did... this is his favourite series of all time. OF ALL TIME. He's memorized the books back to front and he recomended it to me because he said the heroes aren't overly awesome and the villains are super awesome, competent and intelligent... :(

[EmperorAllspice]

The heroes in every other fantasy series ever made didn't survive by being Ta'veren. Yes, from a meta perspective they were lucky, but most of the time they win through the use of their brains, their ingenuity, and their skills. Also, the threat usually scales with them. So that by the time the hero is trained and powerful, then he's up against villains on par with him. Before then, other characters protect the hero from the stronger threats (which Moiraine and Lan do in book 1)

[Suttree]

but that't it. I can suspend my disbelief that far. I do it all the time. By adding in this explanation it just leads me bback to my point. There's no tension and the system seems very vague in how it works. I go back to those 4 questions in my first post.

 

I don't buy that the villains can possibly win. The heroes are unstoppable because IN-UNIVERSE reality is shifting to help them and it just seems pointlessly arbitrary when it doesn't help them.

 

I honestly can't think of a single fantasy novel where I thought the villains could win. Their defeat is inevitable in every book out there. All that changes is the price the good side may have to pay to achieve it.

 

There are a few...

 

The Sundering Duology by Jaqueline Carey for one. Joe Abercrombie also does something similar in the First Law Trilogy.

[EmperorAllspice]

This bothers me so much because I can't quit this series no matter how much I want to.

 

I care too much about the characters and what's going on. But Ta'veren-ness and the lack of competent villainy is pissing me off so much. I'm just trying to find some way to reconcile it all in my own mind so I can gain SOME kind of enjoyment from this series. Since I'm stuck with it

[Morden]

The heroes in every other fantasy series ever made didn't survive by being Ta'veren. Yes, from a meta perspective they were lucky, but most of the time they win through the use of their brains, their ingenuity, and their skills. Also, the threat usually scales with them. So that by the time the hero is trained and powerful, then he's up against villains on par with him. Before then, other characters protect the hero from the stronger threats (which Moiraine and Lan do in book 1)

 

Ta'veren doesnt stop them from dying any more of any less than a hero in any other book. The simple fact of it is its a plot device thats more honest than most. Instead of saying "Oh he survived because.." its "oh he survived because he's Ta'veren.."

 

Myself I think most of the forsaken are incompetent, but so are most of the light, selfishness, arrogance and plain stupidity are rampant.

 

Truth is in almost every book the only reason the evil side doesnt win is because it is inept or stupid, otherwise it wouldnt be grand enough for the reader to think that the hero overcame such a great enemy. But why is it that the bad guys just dont kill them straight off the bat? and not let them get powerful when its obvious they are going to be a pain...

 

Its one of those things you either accept and move on, or abandon the series and hope you can find one which makes more sense to you. Myself i generally ignore the Ta'veren stuff because to me the only reason they will have any chance at all is because of that.

[EmperorAllspice]

Villains are my life. Villains are the crux of why I started reading this series and what my friend reccomended it to me on.

 

... I can't quit. I'm too invested. I've quit EVERY series I've tried reading.. I WON'T quit this one. I just need to think of some way to get enjoyment out of the villains

[Agitel]

The problem is that I read a story because I want the villains to be competent. Hard for them to be competent when reality is bending to help the main characters and only doesn't help them when it's convenient to the plot.

 

You saying it's possible to completely block the term "Ta'veren" from my brain and ignore every instance of it's use in the story?

 

The idea is that it's possible for the Dark One to win. How when he's up against forces like the Ta'veren?

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

Villains are my life. Villains are the crux of why I started reading this series and what my friend reccomended it to me on.

 

... I can't quit. I'm too invested. I've quit EVERY series I've tried reading.. I WON'T quit this one. I just need to think of some way to get enjoyment out of the villains

 

There's a good list of things the villains have/will accomplish. We just can't talk about them yet without spoiling anything.

[Suttree]

The problem is that I read a story because I want the villains to be competent. Hard for them to be competent when reality is bending to help the main characters and only doesn't help them when it's convenient to the plot.

 

You saying it's possible to completely block the term "Ta'veren" from my brain and ignore every instance of it's use in the story?

 

The idea is that it's possible for the Dark One to win. How when he's up against forces like the Ta'veren?

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

The DO is not fighting the war the light side thinks he is. Further he has beaten Ta'veren many times in the past such as when he turned Rand's soul to serve him in past life times. The DO has won, he has just never won an "ultimate victory" yet. If you don't mind some fairly minor spoilers check this quote from RJ out. It sums up where things sit as of KoD quite nicely.

 

RJ

Interview: Sep 25th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: DUMB EVIL?

Robert Jordan

 

The Forsaken are a group of power hungry people who don't like one another and vie with one another for power as much as they vie with the forces of the Light. Much like the internal politicking in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. But look at the situation in the world as it actually stands, from the White Tower divided to crop failures caused by a too-long winter and a too-long summer and people fleeing their farms because the Dragon Reborn has broken all bonds, meaning still less food, and that spoiling at a fearsome rate, from chaos in Arad Doman to a large part of the Borderland armies out of position, from the arrival of the Seanchan focusing too many eyes on them instead of the Shadow to the strongest single nation, Andor, riven by civil war in all but name and Tear split by open warfare, from.... Well, take your pick. There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought. The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don't even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he's wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He's still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he's ready to unveil his surprises. You didn't think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn't ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That's your only chance.

 

 

 

Didn't mention this earlier but you need to take everything Wool Headed Lummox says with a grain of salt. He has been on a campaign to convince everyone how terrible the story is and as such has an inherently skewed perspective for all that he is clever with the way he goes about it.

[EmperorAllspice]

The problem is that I read a story because I want the villains to be competent. Hard for them to be competent when reality is bending to help the main characters and only doesn't help them when it's convenient to the plot.

 

You saying it's possible to completely block the term "Ta'veren" from my brain and ignore every instance of it's use in the story?

 

The idea is that it's possible for the Dark One to win. How when he's up against forces like the Ta'veren?

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

The DO is not fighting the war the light side thinks he is. Further he has beaten Ta'veren many times in the past such as when he turned Rand's soul to serve him in past life times. The DO has won, he has just never won an "ultimate victory" yet. If you don't mind some fairly minor spoilers check this quote from RJ out. It sums up where things sit as of KoD quite nicely.

 

RJ

Interview: Sep 25th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: DUMB EVIL?

Robert Jordan

 

The Forsaken are a group of power hungry people who don't like one another and vie with one another for power as much as they vie with the forces of the Light. Much like the internal politicking in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. But look at the situation in the world as it actually stands, from the White Tower divided to crop failures caused by a too-long winter and a too-long summer and people fleeing their farms because the Dragon Reborn has broken all bonds, meaning still less food, and that spoiling at a fearsome rate, from chaos in Arad Doman to a large part of the Borderland armies out of position, from the arrival of the Seanchan focusing too many eyes on them instead of the Shadow to the strongest single nation, Andor, riven by civil war in all but name and Tear split by open warfare, from.... Well, take your pick. There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought. The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don't even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he's wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He's still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he's ready to unveil his surprises. You didn't think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn't ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That's your only chance.

 

 

 

Didn't mention this earlier but you need to take everything Wool Headed Lummox says with a grain of salt. He has been on a campaign to convince everyone how terrible the story is and as such has an inherently skewed perspective for all that he is clever with the way he goes about it.

 

So basically, The Shadow is winning because they've decimated the world AROUND the Ta'veren. They didn't need to go for them directly, just eat at the world around them. and the Dark One cares little for the Forsaken he loses, since they've served their purpose of bringing yet more chaos to the world through their various scheming

[Suttree]

So basically, The Shadow is winning because they've decimated the world AROUND the Ta'veren. They didn't need to go for them directly, just eat at the world around them. and the Dark One cares little for the Forsaken he loses, since they've served their purpose of bringing yet more chaos to the world through their various scheming

 

Partially but he is very much focused on Rand as well but that would give away too much. Just keep reading, I have just described one way the DO has beat Ta'veren in the past. We know Ishamael single handedly destroyed Hawkwing(one of the strongest ta'veren ever) and his empire. This war is not being fought how the light thinks. Just killing Rand would not necessarily guarantee a victory for the DO. It is far more complicated than that.

 

Also you need to let go of this flawed perspective of how being a ta'veren works. It is not some total invincibility card as people like Agitel have explained in this thread.

[Agitel]

The problem is that I read a story because I want the villains to be competent. Hard for them to be competent when reality is bending to help the main characters and only doesn't help them when it's convenient to the plot.

 

You saying it's possible to completely block the term "Ta'veren" from my brain and ignore every instance of it's use in the story?

 

The idea is that it's possible for the Dark One to win. How when he's up against forces like the Ta'veren?

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

The DO is not fighting the war the light side thinks he is. Further he has beaten Ta'veren many times in the past such as when he turned Rand's soul to serve him in past life times. The DO has won, he has just never won an "ultimate victory" yet. If you don't mind some fairly minor spoilers check this quote from RJ out. It sums up where things sit as of KoD quite nicely.

 

RJ

Interview: Sep 25th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: DUMB EVIL?

Robert Jordan

 

The Forsaken are a group of power hungry people who don't like one another and vie with one another for power as much as they vie with the forces of the Light. Much like the internal politicking in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. But look at the situation in the world as it actually stands, from the White Tower divided to crop failures caused by a too-long winter and a too-long summer and people fleeing their farms because the Dragon Reborn has broken all bonds, meaning still less food, and that spoiling at a fearsome rate, from chaos in Arad Doman to a large part of the Borderland armies out of position, from the arrival of the Seanchan focusing too many eyes on them instead of the Shadow to the strongest single nation, Andor, riven by civil war in all but name and Tear split by open warfare, from.... Well, take your pick. There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought. The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don't even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he's wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He's still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he's ready to unveil his surprises. You didn't think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn't ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That's your only chance.

 

 

 

Didn't mention this earlier but you need to take everything Wool Headed Lummox says with a grain of salt. He has been on a campaign to convince everyone how terrible the story is and as such has an inherently skewed perspective for all that he is clever with the way he goes about it.

 

So basically, The Shadow is winning because they've decimated the world AROUND the Ta'veren. They didn't need to go for them directly, just eat at the world around them. and the Dark One cares little for the Forsaken he loses, since they've served their purpose of bringing yet more chaos to the world through their various scheming

 

Something like that. They can't be everywhere at once. That's not the all of the Shadow's plan insofar as we understand it after thirteen books (there may be a few surprises left come the final one!), but I don't want to spoil everything. Suffice it to say, the chaos isn't the end in itself (though that it is useful), but a means.

 

You asked about Fain earlier. We don't know the full extent of his abilities, but there are some things we know that explain why he can, for example, capture and torture a Myrdraal. You haven't gotten far enough where we can fully discuss the why just yet. Another thing RJ told us about Fain is that he's become an anomaly. He's outside the Pattern, meaning that the Wheel doesn't account for him or what he does, that the Wheel is blind to him.

[EmperorAllspice]

If a Ta'veren falls to the shadow, then do they stop being Ta'veren? I thought that Ta'veren were the champions of the Pattern. I doubt the pattern would want to give power to someone out to destroy it.

 

Also, Was Hawkwing a failed Ta'veren? I doubt his empire was MEANT to collapse. and I know he was influenced by Ishy.

 

I'm not a fan of Fain, sad to say. He's an unwanted third side to the conflict and I don't know what I want from him.

[Agitel]

If a Ta'veren falls to the shadow, then do they stop being Ta'veren? I thought that Ta'veren were the champions of the Pattern.

 

We don't entirely know just yet. We do know that people aren't born ta'veren, and that they aren't necessarily ta'veren for the entirety of their lives. Your question may come up at some point. There's not sufficient knowledge to speculate on what would happen with having read only up to Lord of Chaos (at least, I don't think so).