Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Luckers]

I know Lucks said people are overvaluing strength, but the books harps on it so much. Strength is nearly everything., especially when it's a HUGE difference. Rand at his max power level vs Lanfear wouldn't even be a battle. The other male forsaken know Lanfear is a threat, but are positive they can take her if it comes to it. They're what, 2 levels above her? Why do you think they think that? Perhaps they're fooling themselves, or maybe there's something to it. If Ny was one level above Eggy, I could see the point. But at some point it becomes beating up a kid (Like someone said earlier on). 

 

 

The books show a dance between strength, skill and knowledge. It's the fandom that harps on the value of strength. To display.

 

Eye of the World

 

1. Moiraine v. Aginor = Aginor won [Aginor holds strength, knowledge and skill] - victory results from strength, knowledge and skill.

2. Rand v. Ishamael = Rand won [ishamael holds knowledge and skill. Strength is uncertain due to the influence of the Eye] - victory results from control of the eye and Ishamael's shock that Rand would do what he did.

 

The Great Hunt

 

1. Rand v. Ishamael = Rand won [ishamael hold knowledge, strength and skill]. - victory results from Rand being willing to sacrifice himself.

 

The Dragon Reborn

 

1. Moiraine v. Be'lal = Moiraine won [be'lal holds knowledge, strength and skill]. - victory results from element of surprise and blitzkrieg attack.

2. Rand v. Ishamael = Rand won [ishamael holds knowledge and skill, Rand holds strength due to Callandor] - victory results from strength.

 

The Shadow Rising

 

1. Rand v. Asmodean = Rand won [Asmodean holds knowledge and skill, strength is equal between] - victory results from exhaustion and Lanfear's efforts.

2. Nynaeve v. Moghedien = Nynaeve won [Moghedien holds knowledge and skill, strength is equal between] - victory results from Nynaeve's quick thinking.

 

The Fires of Heaven

 

1. Moiraine v. Lanfear = Moiraine won [Lanfear holds knowledge, strength and skill] - victroy results from Moiraine's prescience and the element of surprise.

2. Rand v. Rahvin = Rand won [Rahvin holds knowledge strength and skill--Nynaeve intervenes] - victory results from Nynaeve's efforts.

 

The Lord of Chaos

 

1. Rand v. Galina an co. = Galina and co. win. [Galina and co. hold strength. The rest is subject to debate] victory results from strength and the element of surprise.

 

Crown of Swords

 

1. Rand v. Sammael = Mashadar won. [sammael holds skill and knowledge. Strength is at this point uncertain. Possibly Rands] victory results from location, Rand's balefire, and the subsequent changes that had on the position of Mashadar.

 

The Path of Daggers

 

No direct channeler fight.

 

Winter's Heart

 

1. Cyndane v. Alivia = Alivia drove Cyndane off, was injured.  [Alivia holds strength, Cyndane holds knowledge and skill. Alivia also held the ter'angreal] - victory undecided.

2. Flinns Circle v. Demandred = Flinn's Circle drove Demandred off.  [Flinn's circle holds strength, Demandred holds skill and knowledge] - victory undecided.

3. Verin's Circle v. Graendal = Verin's Circle drove Graendal off. Kumira was killed. [Graendal holds knowledge and skill. Strength uncertain, but likely in Verin's favour] -victory undecided.

4. Eben's Circle v. Aran'gar = Enen's Circle drove Aran'gar off. Eben was killed. [Aran'gar holds knowledge and skill. Strength uncertain.] - victory undecided.

 

Crossroads of Twilight

 

No significant channeler confrontations.

 

Knife of Dreams

 

1. Rand v. Semirhage = Uncertain judgement. - victory due to Rand's companions, in particular Nynaeve and Cadsuane.

 

The Gathering Storm

 

No signifcant channeler confrontations [Rand and Semirhage were resolved by the True Power]

 

Towers of Midnight

 

No significant channeler confrontations [Egwene and Mesaana were resolved by the Dream]/

 

 

 

In all that, only once does victory result from strength. Only twice is strength even a telling factor in the victory. And only in the Moghedien v. Nynaeve fight was blunt strength even used, and in that fight it was not strength that won the victory, but quick thinking.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I do not. Saying something over and over again does you no favors, to borrow one of your lines If you repeat an opinion often enough, it still does not become fact (about ignoring words.) Along the same line, you could have said that my opinion makes no sense TO YOU. You do not nor ever will decide what makes sense for me or for others. If you really want to do that, go join a priesthood and tell others how to think and interpret words. I believe my opinion makes sense, and again, I apologize if you don't like that. I've explained my position on the issue and what I feel was the main reason for Tal's victory, and others apparently feel similarly.

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

Which highlights the quite obvious inherent flaw in Emily's post. Stop making sense Mr Ares, there is no place for that in this thread. Far easier to just liken someone to a religious zealot if they poke holes in your line of reasoning.

 

A quote that people should bear in mind when brining up their opinion: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No-one is entitled to be ignorant."

QFT

[Kamin_Majere]

Very True Luckers

Yeah the only "strength" wins we really see in the books come in very different situations than battles (and largely involve Rand)

 

Rand was able to shield and split his weaves dozens of ways in the Stone with Elyane and Egwene

 

Rand was able to shield Verin and Alanna in the Inn after he was bonded with no effort

 

Rand was able to destroy the weaves of the Salidar group when they confronted him in the royal palace and they were 6 linked

 

The problem is that Rand is the uppermost echelon of channeling so its hard to say what anyone is really capable of because there hasn't really been much in the way of channeling battles where the channelers (or what they did with the power) mattered as much as the situation how/where the battles took place. (though we do have moggy vs black ajah, but she has tons of knowledge and years more experience than the black ajah women)

 

The other issue is channeling strength and ability are useless... Its just phrases that have never been defined.  We have phrases in the books that seem to make it look like strength is something that is overwhelming after a certain point (candle vs bonfire, powerful channelers walking over weaker like bugs, etc) but we are never shown anything like this except that the weaker tend to take it as true and act accordingly.  Then are claims of deft weaving, skill, and dexterity and with the exception of just a small number of instances it appears that anyone can do any weave they are strong enough to do, once taught then the weave is doable.

 

I'm going back to the victory belonging to Cads (and i don't even mildly like her) because at least she wouldn't be in this situation.  Because honestly until we can compare Strength X vs Skill Y vs Dexterity N vs Unknown Factors Q,F,T,R, in real numbers this really is kinda silly lol And if this oddity of a death match were to occur it would basically end up how ever the author needed it to in order to carry the story forward.  If things happened as they were supposed to Rand and company would have all likely died at the EotW.

[Nightstrike]

Luckers, some of those "because" were your own misinterpretations, and the rest are not relevant for the OP duel we're talking about.

For instance:

1. Moiraine v. Aginor = Aginor won [Aginor holds strength, knowledge and skill] - victory results from strength, knowledge and skill.

If Moggy/Nynaeve was all about skill and no dexterity, then why would this be about strength and not dexterity? Aginor is a male, and he's not skilled as far as men go. Nynaeve and Egwene are both female, and Aginor didn't duel Moiraine, he just ignored her, swatted her aside and went straight for Rand. It would have been more like a duel if they'd actually tried to kill each other, or at least shield each other. Seems like a bad comparison for a duel between Nynaeve and Egwene, even though we have no proof that Egwene is more skilled as a dueller than Moiraine was at the time (apart from knowing how to invert her weaves, which Nynave's also aware of).

1. Moiraine v. Be'lal = Moiraine won [be'lal holds knowledge, strength and skill]. - victory results from element of surprise and blitzkrieg attack.

Element of surprice was all there was to it. It was no duel.

 

 

Vardarmus posted this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did anyone point of the simple fact that Eggy thinks to herself that she couldn't beat Moggy linked with Romanda and Leiane yet she acknowledged that Ny could solo? I mean, pretty straightforward answer right there. Eggy herself thinks she couldn't do it. (it may have been refuted already, although I'm not sure how) meaning if there was a battle, in her mind she would already be at a disadvantage. 

 

Pretty sure if you asked Nyn if she could take on Moggy before she had to, she'd say no pretty quick. So I don't see your point here... Luckily we have plenty of actual on screen evidence to use instead that shows Eggs is better.

 

 

This is after Ny already beat Moggy. So post beating Moggy, Eggy acknowledges Ny's superiority in battling Forsaken. You don't see the point? If you admit Person A would kick your ass with assistance, while admitting person B could kick person's A's ass solo, you don't think that logically it follows that you're admitting Person B could kick you ass as well? Really? You don't see the connection at all, or are you being sarcastic. 

 

@ Fuzz, Umm A crown of Swords, I just read the chapter, like 10 minutes ago. When Moggy escapes the AS camp.

 

And yea, the whole mastered weaves part of this debate has be thinking.  

Good post.

[Suttree]

@ Vards

 

NIce to see the "mastered" verse "memorized" bit has you thinking, it is an important distinction. As for your claim about Eggy and Moggy just want to make sure you didn't miss this post addresing your claim as some others have seemed to do. It's a solid breakdown on what happens there. Cheers mate.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/77106-combat-skills-egwene-vs-nynaeve-no-tersa-angreal/?p=2690174

[Knivy]

 

 

 

I give more than an even chance for an Egwene win. A duel is hardly going to be a cage match. It involves a lot of tactical manoeuvring (Ref: Rand vs Rahvin). Here, I believe Egwenes' abilities outmatches that of Nynaeve.

The problem with that is that once you make it anything other than a cage match, then there are an infinite amount of variables in involved. Are Lan and Gawyn allowed to fight? Where is it taking place? Do they know they will fight each other?

Not really, obviously other people cant be involved but I don't think anyone has ever been talking about solely a 10 feet away stare at each other fight. How about they know they will fight and the location can change.

 

 

I wasnt referring to the 10 feet stare down, but more of a neutral ground fight, but I said it poorly. 

 

But going off your example, Ill develop a little more.

 

They both know about it, so I am assuming it originating at a particular location, but isn't restrained to it.  Either both have no access to that location or they have equal access (you choose).  No outside assistance is allowed, lets say everyone takes a vacation to a mirror world that day, and they take the world's ter'angreal and angreals with them.  Fight to pain? (you decide the goal of the fight)

 

In the situation i present, I would call a draw due to Eggy attempting to draw Nyn to a trap in a different location (access restrictions prevent pre-set traps at the original location), and Nyn not caring enough about the fight to follow.

[Knivy]

Double post, sorry.

[Suttree]

@ Vards

 

NIce to see the "mastered" verse "memorized" bit has you thinking, it is an important distinction. As for your claim about Eggy and Moggy just want to make sure you didn't miss this post addresing your claim as some others have seemed to do. It's a solid breakdown on what happens there. Cheers mate.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/77106-combat-skills-egwene-vs-nynaeve-no-tersa-angreal/?p=2690174

 

@BFG

 

Being able to split flows and fluctuate the strength you put into them is certainly not solely a WF ability. Not sure what would give you that idea?

 

Further I would love to see actual quotes to support your theory that Nyn has shown to be more inventive in "battle situations". AS has been pointed out the fight with the Seanchan is as if not more hectic than a one on one duel. You have to block regular attacks(arrows and the like), you have to divert OP attacks, you have to shield against exploding debris etc, all while lashing out at your attackers. It's not like Eggy was using only fireballs to shoot fish in a barrel. She was splitting her flows and using offensive/defensive weaves with the Seanchan focused on her.

[Nightstrike]

Seanchan don't have a need to practice shielding like Nynaeve and Talaan did. The damane learn from sul'dam, and they aren't the best teachers. Damane aren't allowed to think independantly, which is definitely a disadvantage. Egwene hasn't been seen either being good at or being drilled in duelling. Seanchan blow up things, search for ores, make sky lights, and things like that. I don't think we've heard of them being master duellers.

 

Egwene is bad at Healing, and she could be equally bad at duelling, for all we know.

[BFG]

EDIT: Wall of text

 

Sutt said

 

@ Vards

 

NIce to see the "mastered" verse "memorized" bit has you thinking, it is an important distinction. As for your claim about Eggy and Moggy just want to make sure you didn't miss this post addresing your claim as some others have seemed to do. It's a solid breakdown on what happens there. Cheers mate.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/77106-combat-skills-egwene-vs-nynaeve-no-tersa-angreal/?p=2690174

 

@BFG

 

Being able to split flows and fluctuate the strength you put into them is certainly not solely a WF ability. Not sure what would give you that idea?

 

Further I would love to see actual quotes to support your theory that Nyn has shown to be more inventive in "battle situations". AS has been pointed out the fight with the Seanchan is as if not more hectic than a one on one duel. You have to block regular attacks(arrows and the like), you have to divert OP attacks, you have to shield against exploding debris etc, all while lashing out at your attackers. It's not like Eggy was using only fireballs to shoot fish in a barrel. She was splitting her flows and using offensive/defensive weaves with the Seanchan focused on her.

 

 

I know that splitting flows wasn't something that only WF can do, I was misremembering the scene, (partially due to a debate I've been having with some friends, *shakes fist at friends*) and thought that Talaan was changing the strength of weaves she'd already made, kind of like pulses.  Obviously AS can change the strength that goes into a weave, I thought the WF could modify it after the weave had been made - this isn't the case, so I withdraw that point. 

 

The point I make about ways that people think hasn't changed though.

 

Winter's Heart

"She used your own force against you," Senine din Ryal said bluntly before Nynaeve could speak. "And distraction, again. It is like wrestling, girl. You know how to wrestle."

 

To me (I accept their are alternative interpretations) this reads that Talaan is reminded of wrestling, changes her weaveing style and Nyn can't counter straight away. 

 

On a side, let's make lots of assumptions (feel free to ignore this bit).  They've been channeling non-stop for the last hour.  Let's assume that Talaan spent 30 minutes learning the shield weave (Talaan is talented, so it's probably less time).  That leaves 30 minutes of duelling, assuming each duel takes on average 5 minutes, that's 6 goes.  So dualling the way that Nyn knows, she wins 6 times  "And distraction, again" (again implies more than once - we haven't seen the whole lesson, it seems reasonable to assume it's an entire lesson devoted to shielding).  Talaan changes the style of battle and wins.  Yes, I know this is assumption built on assumption, etc.  I'm not to bothered if you ignore this.

 

Although I agree that Eg could do this, their's nothing in the text to show that she would think this way - she has no wrestling background either (and the change in tactics inspired by the wrestling allowed Talaan to win - the ability to do it was due to her dexterity, but the mindset came from 'street smarts').  As I said, she may have picked up a way of thinking from the Aiel that's advantageous, but I can't think of any textual proof that the Aiel way of thinking has done anything to change her weaves - the test she has in the Tower suggests it hasn't, when she was tested on normal weaves the sister didn't wonder or remark that her weaving was different to that of the way the Tower does stuff.  This means that Eg and Nyn are back to the same mindset, within this mindset of duelling Nyn has more experience, having actually duelled.

 

 

Nyns innovation in battle like situations:

 

The Dragon Reborn

 

She had just stepped into the room, yet it seemed she had been meeting that stare for hours. "I'll take no more of this," she growled, and unleashed a flow of Fire.
   Flames burst out of all three Myrddraal, sprouting in every direction, and they shrieked like splintered bones jamming a meatgrinder. Yet she had forgotten she was not alone, that Elayne and Nynaeve were with her. Even as the flames consumed the Halfmen, the very air seemed suddenly to push them together in midair, crushing them into a ball of fire and blackness that grew smaller and smaller. Their screams dug at Egwene's spine, and something shot out from Nynaeve's hands – a thin bar of white light that made noonday sun seem dark, a bar of fire that made molten metal seem cold, connecting her hands to the Myrddraal. And they ceased to exist as if they had never been. Nynaeve gave a startled jump, and the glow around her vanished.
   "What... what was that?" Elayne asked.
   Nynaeve shook her head; she looked as stunned as Elayne sounded. "I don't know. I... I was so angry, so afraid, at what they wanted to... I do not know what it was."
   Balefire, Egwene thought. She did not know how she knew, but she was certain of it.

 

Nyn invents balefire in a battle

 

ToM

"You're too experienced to have been given this test," Egwene explained. "In a way, what happened is proof that you deserved the shawl when I granted it to you. You performed each of the weaves expertly, with speed and skill. I particularly liked the way you used 'useless' weaves, on occasion, to attack the things you saw."

 

Two things here, first Egs observation that she used the useless weaves in new ways is also innovative.  Second you're going to have to decide - either Nyn practiced the weaves and that's why she was able to perform each 'expertly, with speed and skill', or simple memory for Nynaeve is enough to enable her to do this.  Based on other quotes about her 'heavy hand' I'm choosing the first.

 

Eg's battle skill:

 

Excerpts from tGS

Each faceless Seanchan that Egwene struck down seemed to be Renna in her mind's eye. Egwene stood at an open hole in the side of the White Tower, wind pulling at her white dress, tugging at her hair, howling as if in accompaniment to her rage.

 

With that level of wind, there's no chance an arrow or projectile weapon is going to hit her, when fired from a distance.  She's also partially shielded by the walls of the Tower.

 

She blasted to'raken after to'raken from the air. They were much less maneuverable than their smaller cousins. She must have felled a dozen by now, and her actions had drawn the attention of those outside. The attack below was breaking off, the entire raid focusing on Egwene. The novices fought Seanchan raiding parties on the stairs, forcing them back. To'raken winged about in the air, swooping around the Tower, trying to take Egwene with shields or blasts of fire. Smaller raken darted through the air, crossbowmen on their backs launching bolts at her.

 

Their's nothing complicated about this.  (I've even included the bit with your counter - that the raid focused on Eg)

 

Shield after shield came to sever her from the source, but they were like the hands of children trying to stem the roaring flow of a waterfall. With this much power, she could not be stopped save by a full circle, and the Seanchan didn't use circles; the a'dam prevented it.

The attackers prepared weaves to strike her down, but each time Egwene struck first, either deflecting the balls of fire with a blast of air or simply bringing down the to'raken who carried the women trying to kill her.

 

She doesn't have to defend against a shield, as they can't possibly sever her whatever they try.  Again, this isn't complicated weaving. 

 

She formed a ball of fire in each hand, blasting another beast from the sky as it swooped too close.

 

Throughout the entire sequence Eg uses fire and air, in big powerful, broad, uncomplicated strikes.

 

The novices fought Seanchan raiding parties on the stairs, forcing them back.

 

She doesn't have to worry about her back, the novices are guarding it, she only has to focus on what's going on in front of her.

 

Don't get me wrong, what Eg does is impressive, she wields a lot of Power for a very long time, she keeps calm under extreme pressure, she exerts her authority on Sisters and novices.  The level of Power she controls is impressive (and in no way do I mean this as faint praise).  Her ability to keep track of so many elements during the battle is also impressive.  But it's in no way innovative or complicated weaving (in terms of the actual weaves used - the weaves are straightforward, the number she uses are impressive).  I'm not, nor did I ever mean to say (and I don't remember saying it) that it was an easy fight.

 

So perhaps you can provide examples of Egs innovative weaving while under pressure? 

 

That proved to be the wrong choice, as both women's leashes unlocked, twisting lines of Air unclasping them with dexterous speed. Just a heartbeat after that, one of the women in red and blue disappeared in a flash of lightning while the other was set upon by tongues of flame, like striking serpents.

 

Just read through again and found this.  To me this is the most skillful (or perhaps intricate is a better word instead of skillful) weaving (dexterous speed, striking serpents) that she shows in the entire sequence, but this is having caught the raiders by surprise - yes they knew she was there, but were still reacting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Additionally:

Thrusting her head and the lantern into "Marigan's" tiny tent, she found it empty. The blankets that made up the pallet on the ground lay in a sprawl, tossed aside by someone in a hurry. 

And what if she had still been here?

she wondered. With the necklace off, and maybe whoever freed her? Shivering, she withdrew slowly. Moghedien had good reason to dislike her, very personally, and

the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all,

was in Ebou Dar

.

Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing

; even had a sister felt her channel, there would be nothing remarkable in that. Worse, Moghedien might not have killed her. And no one would have known anything until they found the pair of them gone.

Fionwe explains the bit of bold - and i have no problems with that interpretation, but completely ignores the bit in blue.  Fionwe also states that Eg isn't at her full potential, but I always thought that she was at or near her potential after Falme, as a result of being forced. 

Path of Daggers

She [Elayne] had grown accustomed to knowing that only Nynaeve and the Forsaken were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha’s, matched Egwene’s.

 

 

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

[Emily_Sedai]

 

What about my question? Would Nyn's awesome fire skills have been the reason for her victory in my hypothetical situation?

I mean, is that even relevant? We can make all the hypothetical situations we want, but it doesn't really mean anything. All we have to go off of is the text, which clearly shows that Nynaeve despite her attempts at being dextrous and clever was outwitted, outplayed, and ultimately defeated. 

 

 

 

Definetly agree with all of this, going back to what I said about Talaan... She won by out scheming Nyn. Outwit, outlast, outplay.

So i'm a little unclear as to your argument in general. Are you saying that Nynaeve would win in a duel? I'm too lazy to read through 18 pages of posts to find your original stance, but it seems from the last few pages that you are a staunch defender of Nynaeve at least with regards to her dexterity and skill, however, here you claim that Nynaeve lost because she was outwitted. Shouldn't intelligence and creativity be a part of this consideration also? As Thrasymachus said, it may not matter if Nynaeve is so much stronger or even if she is as dextrous as Egwene (she doesn't seem to me to be as dextrous) when Egwene would come up with a clever plan of attack and slip through Nynaeve's defenses and shield her. 

 

Well, my general argument Fuzz was that the example of the Tal vs. Nyn duel was a bad example for showing that dexterity with weaves is enough to bridge the difference in strength between Egween and Nyn.  That was pretty much all that I said, despite all of the pages that discuss it. 

 

My hypothetical was to try to get people to view it in a different way.  Basically, I said that if Nyn had won the duel by using a tricky fire weave to startle Talaan into screwing up, would you attribute her victory to her skill with fire.  I personally don’t believe so, and that the victory came with using a clever ploy.  This is why I feel that attributing Tal’s victories over Nyn to dexterity is not quite correct, and a poor example of showing that dexterity can overcome the strength power between Nyn and Egween. 

 

I actually haven't said who would win the duel, just my thoughts on this particular scene and its use in the discussion. 

[Suttree]

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

Wow, BFG...very solid post all around. This one is going to take a while and you make some solid points. Don't have a ton of time to dive in and search but innovative under pressure has been shown already in thread. I would say her splitting the weaves and "juggling" which is said to be as difficult as real life juggling(much like Talaan would need to be equally dexterous to pull of op "wrestling") while being beaten and under the muddling influence of forkroot fits the bill.

 

Edit: As an aside I think you severely understimate the chaos and different things one must defend against in the Seanchan fight even if one doesn't need to worry about shielding.

[Emily_Sedai]

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I do not. Saying something over and over again does you no favors, to borrow one of your lines If you repeat an opinion often enough, it still does not become fact (about ignoring words.) Along the same line, you could have said that my opinion makes no sense TO YOU. You do not nor ever will decide what makes sense for me or for others. If you really want to do that, go join a priesthood and tell others how to think and interpret words. I believe my opinion makes sense, and again, I apologize if you don't like that. I've explained my position on the issue and what I feel was the main reason for Tal's victory, and others apparently feel similarly.

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

Which highlights the quite obvious inherent flaw in Emily's post. Stop making sense Mr Ares, there is no place for that in this thread. Far easier to just liken someone to a religious zealot if they poke holes in your line of reasoning.

 

A quote that people should bear in mind when brining up their opinion: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No-one is entitled to be ignorant."

QFT

 

 

Again, you make the same mistake that if you somehow declare 'It makes no sense!,' then *whom*, it doesn't.  Just because you view something that way, does not make it so.  For the love of light. 

 

Since you liked my relating you to a religious zealot:  if interpretation and opinion is so clear cut, why are people still arguing over one of the most read and most studied books in history, the bible.  Why is there no clear cut 'the bible says this, so do this.'  Why is there such a difference between sects of Christianity? 

 

I have degrees too.  I whole bunch of them in truth, and have taken many classes in various universities dealing with written works and other forms of information.  So far as my experience goes, most professors don't care about your position as well as it is reasoned out.  Person A and person B in the class may reach different conclussions based on the same text, it doesn't mean either is 'wrong.'  It's up for others to decide which opinion that they feel has a stronger basis, it is not person A to go tell person B that their interpretation is wrong and has no worth. 

 

Frankly, since this is still being discussed by myself and others, I don't think that you can call it clear cut all that much.  If you really want to make that claim, knock yourself out. 

 

To add a bit of honesty also, I didn't liken you to a religious zealot.  I said that if you want to help people decide their opinions and tell them how to think, then you might want to try a career as a priest.  That is how you are acting every time you say that an opinion has no weight/makes no sense just because you say so.

[Suttree]

blah, blah, blah

Whole bunch of defensive words to avoid the obvious point and flaw in your thiniking...

 Mr Ares

 

 

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

 

 

So far as my experience goes, most professors don't care about your position as well as it is reasoned out.

 

The bolded beng key and I would change that to "well reasoned out". See the problem now?

 

Lighten up Emily, the debate is all in good fun.

 

Edit: Lastly nothing about the dexterity is still being discussed. Even those such as BFG(if you want to point me to somene else that says what Talaan did does not take dexterity feel free to show me what I missed)  that see the wrestling angle agree it would take dexterity to actually make it happen. Dexterity that Nyn could not keep up with. Your own example backed you into a corner here.

[BFG]

 

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

Wow, BFG...very solid post all around. This one is going to take a while and you make some solid points. Don't have a ton of time to dive in and search but innovative under pressure has been shown already in thread. I would say her splitting the weaves and "juggling" which is said to be as difficult as real life juggling(much like Talaan would need to be equally dexterous to pull of op "wrestling") while being beaten and under the muddling influence of forkroot fits the bill.

 

Edit: As an aside I think you severely understimate the chaos and different things one must defend against in the Seanchan fight even if one doesn't need to worry about shielding.

 

*does a little jig*

 

Your edit - is why I struggle to shift Nyns experience with duelling to a large combat situation, but it also works the other way, as duels and big battles use different skills, being good at one doesn't mean you'll be good at another.  I think we may mean different things by innovative - I think of it as being inventing something new, using something in a new way.  The juggling and the fact she thinks it's almost (or as) difficult as juggling with your hands, implies to me it's something she's practiced and goes towards dexterity and skill as opposed to innovation - I may be drawing a fine line that the word doesn't merit, but that's the distinction I've been making. 

 

Additionally, although forkroot does make you sleepy - the dose has been limited so that she doesn't fall asleep, and at this stage she certainly hasn't been taking enough to develop any immunity - even if that's possible - BUT her head is clearer than it has been for weeks, because her headaches have disappeared - in text these are made a much bigger deal of than the effects of forkroot.  As I said, Eg is dextrous, I'm not arguing with that.

 

EDIT:

BFG said:

Don't get me wrong, what Eg does is impressive, she wields a lot of Power for a very long time, she keeps calm under extreme pressure, she exerts her authority on Sisters and novices.  The level of Power she controls is impressive (and in no way do I mean this as faint praise).  Her ability to keep track of so many elements during the battle is also impressive

[Emily_Sedai]

 

blah, blah, blah

Whole bunch of defensive words to avoid the obvious point and flaw in your thiniking...

 Mr Ares

 

 

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

 

 

So far as my experience goes, most professors don't care about your position as well as it is reasoned out.

 

The bolded beng key and I would change that to "well reasoned out". See the problem now?

 

Lighten up Emily, the debate is all in good fun.

 

Edit: Lastly nothing about the dexterity is still being discussed. Even those such as BFG(if you want to point me to somene else that says what Talaan did does not take dexterity feel free to show me what I missed)  that see the wrestling angle agree it would take dexterity to actually make it happen. Dexterity that Nyn could not keep up with. Your own example backed you into a corner here.

 

 

Alrighty, I decree that your reasoning makes no sense.  You might think it makes sense to you, but I have decided that it does not.  Ha ha.  That would be the flaw in Mr. Ares assertion.  I can see a world built upon that right now..  a child sitting in a classroom learing that in our main math system, 2 + 2 = 4.  The child tenatively holds up her hand and says "Ms. Teacher, that doesn't make any sense!'  The children all around her say the same thing.  It doesn't make any sense!  The teacher explains why it does, but the children all say at once: 'just because it makes sense to you, doesn't make it so!' 

 

Oy vey. 

 

Interestingly, I don't believe I said that dexterity had nothing to do with it.  I said that it wasn't the major factor.  I give up on your skills with understanding the difference.  When you're down to correcting typos to be dismissive, then I'm pretty much done.  I apologize for writing posts at work and writing quickly, as I'm down to only an ipad at home and don't like typing out long paragraphs on it.   

[Durinax]

 

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

Wow, BFG...very solid post all around. This one is going to take a while and you make some solid points. Don't have a ton of time to dive in and search but innovative under pressure has been shown already in thread. I would say her splitting the weaves and "juggling" which is said to be as difficult as real life juggling(much like Talaan would need to be equally dexterous to pull of op "wrestling") while being beaten and under the muddling influence of forkroot fits the bill.

 

Edit: As an aside I think you severely understimate the chaos and different things one must defend against in the Seanchan fight even if one doesn't need to worry about shielding.

 

I dont think that the 'juggling weaves' bit fits under the proper form of pressure that we are relating too. That is all pressure from the inside that she is trying to do something to prove it type deal.

 

Being innovative while being under the pressure of fighting for your life is much different and much more important. Which she has not shown any inventiveness at, although arguably during the ToM Mesaana fight she did show some, but I attribute that more to Perrin flat out showing her that the mind is the best weapon than to inventiveness on her part.

[Suttree]

I'll give you this, your example made me chuckle for all that it has no bearing on the topic. Points for that.

 

Interestingly, I don't believe I said that dexterity had nothing to do with it.  I said that it wasn't the major factor. 

You're making this way too easy...

 

 

 

I guess I don't view her two victories as a matter of dexterity, but rather a victory of tactics.

 

Would you like me to pull a few more along those lines? Don't try to start hedging now by trying to slip in that "nothing to do with it".

 

Lastly I had no idea that was a typo on your part, that isn't the point I was making. No need to get "snippy".  Oh wait...my mistake, that's what you accused Fionwe of. =)

 

Edit: Again, all in good fun. Please be clear that I'm saying all of this with a smile on my face.

[BFG]

 

 

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

Wow, BFG...very solid post all around. This one is going to take a while and you make some solid points. Don't have a ton of time to dive in and search but innovative under pressure has been shown already in thread. I would say her splitting the weaves and "juggling" which is said to be as difficult as real life juggling(much like Talaan would need to be equally dexterous to pull of op "wrestling") while being beaten and under the muddling influence of forkroot fits the bill.

 

Edit: As an aside I think you severely understimate the chaos and different things one must defend against in the Seanchan fight even if one doesn't need to worry about shielding.

 

I dont think that the 'juggling weaves' bit fits under the proper form of pressure that we are relating too. That is all pressure from the inside that she is trying to do something to prove it type deal.

 

Being innovative while being under the pressure of fighting for your life is much different and much more important. Which she has not shown any inventiveness at, although arguably during the ToM Mesaana fight she did show some, but I attribute that more to Perrin flat out showing her that the mind is the best weapon than to inventiveness on her part.

 

 

This, I debated including the TAR stuff, but as you said that's about the mind, much more than anything else.

 

(Doesn't detract from the skill she shows)

[Emily_Sedai]

I'll give you this, your example made me chuckle for all that it has no bearing on the topic. Points for that.

 

Interestingly, I don't believe I said that dexterity had nothing to do with it.  I said that it wasn't the major factor. 

You're making this way too easy...

 

 

 

I guess I don't view her two victories as a matter of dexterity, but rather a victory of tactics.

 

Would you like me to pull a few more along those lines? Don't try to start hedging now by trying to slip in that "nothing to do with it".

 

Lastly I had no idea that was a typo on your part, that isn't the point I was making. No need to get "snippy".  Oh wait...my mistake, that's what you accused Fionwe of. =)

 

Edit: Again, all in good fun. Please be clear that I'm saying all of this with a smile on my face.

 

The quote said that I didn't view dexterity as the reason for her victory, I never said it wasn't a factor. 

 

You should have kept reading that same post...  the third paragraph:

 

"I personally think that dexterity matters, but not so much as to counter Nyn's power advantage... To me, a direct attack by Nyn straight on would always win by a weaker channeler, as I'm not sure there is a counter to it. If there was, I think Mog would have used it during the 1v1 battle (ie, once they were locked in.)" 

 

My position has pretty much been the same.  The major factor in Tal's victories were the tactics, and not dexterity.  In my hypothetical, the fire Nyn uses would be a factor in her victory, but not the major reason for it. 

 

To give another logic lesson:  I don't view the US victory in WWII as a matter of the people's desire to serve their country, but rather of the US manufacturing capabilities. 

 

From this line, would you draw the conclussion that I think the people's desire to serve their country played no part in the US winning WWII? 

 

Geesh, I feel like I'm writing out an 8th grade standardized test right now.     

 

 

 

[Suttree]

I did read that last part, which has nothing to do with what you said earlier in concerning Talaan/Nyn fight. You said the two victories were not "a matter of dexterity" and were talking about Egewene with that second part. Now you have been backtracking with this "nothing to do with it" bit. Further as was noted earlier this direct strike quick win is a fabrication on your part as shown by the Moir/Merean fight.

Geesh, I feel like I'm writing out an 8th grade standardized test right now.     

Lol...I went to UCSB so the above sounds about right! Us UC grads aren't really known for our smarts like Narg.

[Emily_Sedai]

I did read that last part, which has nothing to do with what you said earlier in concerning Talaan/Nyn fight. You said the two victories were not "a matter of dexterity" and were talking about Egewene with that second part. Now you have been backtracking with this "nothing to do with it" bit. Further as was noted earlier this direct strike quick win is a fabrication on your part as shown by the Moir/Merean fight.

 

 

Geesh, I feel like I'm writing out an 8th grade standardized test right now.     

 

Lol...I went to UCSB so the above sounds about right! Us UC grads aren't really known for our smarts like Narg.

So you acknowledge that the conclusion you drew from my sentence was wrong by the logical argument i made. Care to try to find another one where I said dexterity had nothing to do with it?

 

On a happy note since I saw another missed conclusion, my line about 8th grade standardized test had to do with the nature of sentence I wrote out to highlight my point. You usually see things like that on standardized tests, and had nothing to do with you.

 

Cheers.

[Suttree]

 

I did read that last part, which has nothing to do with what you said earlier in concerning Talaan/Nyn fight. You said the two victories were not "a matter of dexterity" and were talking about Egewene with that second part. Now you have been backtracking with this "nothing to do with it" bit. Further as was noted earlier this direct strike quick win is a fabrication on your part as shown by the Moir/Merean fight.

 

Geesh, I feel like I'm writing out an 8th grade standardized test right now.     

Lol...I went to UCSB so the above sounds about right! Us UC grads aren't really known for our smarts like Narg.

So you acknowledge that the conclusion you drew from my sentence was wrong by the logical argument i made. Care to try to find another one where I said dexterity had nothing to do with it?

 

On a happy note since I saw another missed conclusion, my line about 8th grade standardized test had to do with the nature of sentence I wrote out to highlight my point. You usually see things like that on standardized tests, and had nothing to do with you.

 

Cheers.

 

Whatever makes you feel better at night Emily. 

 

Ironically with all your talk of conclusions you seem to be way too trigger happy such as with the "typo" and claiming I thought you meant the "8th grade" example had something to do with me. I was making a joke exclaiming that would be the right level(assumed the lol was a give away) I didn't think you were taking a dig at me in the slightest. It's been fun!

 

Now that you have admitted dexterity was a factor in the victory can we get back to the topic at hand. According to your own thoughts Talaan had more dexterity to "wrestle" with and was quicker thinking and more adaptable. So the question to your mind is does Eggy have enough strength to do the same?

[Emily_Sedai]

I was pretty amused all told, especially with Mr. a's assertion about sense. Have to admit that all I saw with that was The Star Wars prequels and Anakin saying that all people should be made to agree. That seems to fall along the same lines of all people should think the same, and always draw the same conclusions. We can get right on that a soon as we standardize brains and life experiences. Rofl

 

 

[Durinax]

 

 

 

So Suttree :)

 

Can you explain the bit above in blow

Can you provide examples of Eg's innovative weaving under pressure - important, as it's harder to defend against something you've never seen before (imagine Eg and Nyn were fighting the first time Nyn discovered balefire?  We have nothing to say she couldn't come up with something equally nasty again in another situation)

Wow, BFG...very solid post all around. This one is going to take a while and you make some solid points. Don't have a ton of time to dive in and search but innovative under pressure has been shown already in thread. I would say her splitting the weaves and "juggling" which is said to be as difficult as real life juggling(much like Talaan would need to be equally dexterous to pull of op "wrestling") while being beaten and under the muddling influence of forkroot fits the bill.

 

Edit: As an aside I think you severely understimate the chaos and different things one must defend against in the Seanchan fight even if one doesn't need to worry about shielding.

 

I dont think that the 'juggling weaves' bit fits under the proper form of pressure that we are relating too. That is all pressure from the inside that she is trying to do something to prove it type deal.

 

Being innovative while being under the pressure of fighting for your life is much different and much more important. Which she has not shown any inventiveness at, although arguably during the ToM Mesaana fight she did show some, but I attribute that more to Perrin flat out showing her that the mind is the best weapon than to inventiveness on her part.

 

 

This, I debated including the TAR stuff, but as you said that's about the mind, much more than anything else.

 

(Doesn't detract from the skill she shows)

 

I actually dislike how that played out, it just seemed contrived with how she reacted the entire series to Adam, with her nightmares and such about it, then she gets one put on and in 3.2 seconds she is over it.