So if Be'lal is Taim then .......

[Leopoled Boothe]

Which of the following do you think is true? (This post is for those who believe that Be'lal = Taim. Please do not submit arguments as to why Be'lal is not Taim on this thread.)

 

A). Be'lal and Taim were always one and the same. Up until he was killed by Moiraine in Tear he was leading a double life as both High Lord Sammon and as Mazrim Taim (Rember he could Travel so he would have been able to pull it off). After he was killed Be'lal was transmigrated into a random new body and once agian took on the identity of his alter ego Mazrim Taim.

 

B). Be'lal and Taim were origionally seperate entities and had no association with one another. Taim was killed either during or shortly after his escape from the AS and Be'lal was transmigrated into Taim's body because the DO thought that Be'lal could use Taim's high profile identity to the advantage of the Shadow.

 

C. Be'lal and Taim were origionally seperate entities but Taim was a darkfriend in the service of Be'lal (Think about it, one sets up his base of power in Tear and the other needs to get into the impregnable fortress, The Stone of Tear, in order to prove himself. Perhaps Be'lal was planning to have The Stone take a dive to Taim and his army). After Be'lal and Taim were both killed the DO decided in an ironic twist to transmigrate Be'lal into the body of his former servant, perhaps has a constant reminder to Be'lal has his plans with Taim had failed).

 

D) Other (please explain)

[Mercer]

D: Be'lal is not Taim. Taim is Taim.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Be'lal was balefired. Balefire is as final as it gets. Why do you think Be'lal is Taim?

[RobertAlexWillis]

There is no way that Be'lal is Taim. However, in the spirit of the thread, I will say that the closest to plausible is option B. It couldn't be A, because Taim is over 30, and was therefore alive before any Forsaken broke out (meaning he couldn't have been Be'lal all along). I wouldn't buy C because the Dark One would be sacrificing a useful tool in Darkfriend Taim, when the body of any channeler would work fine. So, B is the most likely, in my opinion.

 

As a side note, the Dark One does not transmigrate people into dead bodies, he transmigrates them into bodies that have been turned into essentially living vegetables. Even Shai'tan can't truly bring a dead body back to life, or at least, we haven't seen him do it yet if he can. So, if Taim were killed in his escape, Be'lal (or anyone else) couldn't have been transmigrated into him at all. And if he wasn't killed, the Dark One would be wasting a useful tool.

 

However .... sigh .... how to put it delicately .... its just not there guys, I'm sorry. Taim is Taim. Be'lal is yesterday's ashes.

[Leopoled Boothe]

D: Be'lal is not Taim. Taim is Taim.

 

Sorry' date=' couldn't resist. Be'lal was balefired. Balefire is as final as it gets. Why do you think Be'lal is Taim?[/quote']

 

Actually I don't think that Taim is Be'lal, however, there are some who believe that he is. I was dead set against the idea at first but I must say that they have submitted some compelling arguments that have made me say "Well, Taim probably is not Be'lal but he could be." So while I don't wholeheartedly buy into the Be'lal=Taim theory I am now at least willing to accept the possiblity. For more info on this see the thread on this forum titled "Be'lal."

[Leopoled Boothe]

It couldn't be A, because Taim is over 30, and was therefore alive before any Forsaken broke out.

 

True enough, but High Lord Samon, Lord Brend, Kellie and Jasin Natal were all over 30 as well, at least in apperance. Moreover, Dashiva and Hamila must be in their mid 20's and Selene in her early 20's. So basically every Forsaken alter-ego appears older than they could possibly be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remeber anyone ever mentioning having known Taim since his chidlhood, so just because Taim appears to be over 30 that doesn't mean that he is.

 

 

I wouldn't buy C because the Dark One would be sacrificing a useful tool in Darkfriend Taim, when the body of any channeler would work fine. So, B is the most likely, in my opinion.

 

This may be a bit off subject but I don't think it even has to be the body of a channeler. Aran'gar's body was certainly not preset to channel Saiden yet Bathamel seems to manage just fine

 

 

As a side note, the Dark One does not transmigrate people into dead bodies, he transmigrates them into bodies that have been turned into essentially living vegetables. Even Shai'tan can't truly bring a dead body back to life, or at least, we haven't seen him do it yet if he can. So, if Taim were killed in his escape, Be'lal (or anyone else) couldn't have been transmigrated into him at all. And if he wasn't killed, the Dark One would be wasting a useful tool.

 

Can you provide a sourse on this? I always assumed that the DO had to get ahold of the body within 3 days of its death. They always use the phase "Dead for 3 days" so I assumed that the body was still somewhat viable within three days of death. Still well beyond AS healing capabilities. But for Shai'tan? Who knows?

 

However .... sigh .... how to put it delicately .... its just not there guys, I'm sorry. Taim is Taim. Be'lal is yesterday's ashes.

 

Yes, let me clarify my stance on this issue. For the most part I agree that Taim probably is just Taim. However, the Be'lal = Taim crowd have put forth some compelling arguments so my postion has shifted from "No way in hell is Taim Be'lal" to "Taim probably is not Be'lal but I supose there is a slim chance he may be." My intent in posting this thread was to pick the branis of the Be'lal=Taim crowd a little more.

[TimWA]

Demandred = Mazrim Taim

 

Be'lal = toasted part of the pattern.

[Trib4l]

You just lit a fire - a bonfire, dude.

 

Taimandred is NOT true. For the 5,000,000,000th time, RJ has confirmed that TAIM IS NOT DEMANDRED.

[Thorum]

That was denied by the Creator himself. So: Taim is NOT Demandred.

[Guest Majsju]

Ok, while I am totally opposed to the idea that Taim is anyone other than Taim, and that Be'lal somehow got brought back despite having been balefired, there are a few oddities here that needs my attention :D

 

It couldn't be A, because Taim is over 30, and was therefore alive before any Forsaken broke out

 

Wrong, Taim is in his mid- to late-20s. Rand made a kistake about Taims age when they first met, because Taim had been running for his life with Bashere and the Saldean army closing in on him. So he was dirty, tired and all that stuff that made him look older than he is.

 

True enough, but High Lord Samon, Lord Brend, Kellie and Jasin Natal were all over 30 as well, at least in apperance. Moreover, Dashiva and Hamila must be in their mid 20's and Selene in her early 20's. So basically every Forsaken alter-ego appears older than they could possibly be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remeber anyone ever mentioning having known Taim since his chidlhood, so just because Taim appears to be over 30 that doesn't mean that he is.

 

Dashiva looked very old, while no age was ever mentioned I'd say he was at least in his 50s. Halima could be anything between early 20s and early- to mid 30s. Selene appeared as a young woman because lanfear used Mask of Mirrors, as we saw in TSR when she revelaed her true appearance to Rand.

 

As for lord Brend, Samon and Natael, those were the forsakens own appearances, so them looking older than 30 is no problem at all. Kellie was again Lanfear using Mask of Mirrors, so she could look however she wanted.

 

This may be a bit off subject but I don't think it even has to be the body of a channeler. Aran'gar's body was certainly not preset to channel Saiden yet Bathamel seems to manage just fin

 

I am pretty sure the body used in the recycling must be able to channel. As we see when the 'Gars are introduced, there is need for suitable bodies, and considering that Osan'gar/Dashiva got a body that was close to useless for anything more physical than walking straight forward, the required suitability almost must be ability to channel. That Aran'gar still channels Saidin despite the sexchange rather implies that the ability to channel is not specified to Saidin or Saidiar, just channeling in general, and then the soul decides which it will be.

 

Can you provide a sourse on this? I always assumed that the DO had to get ahold of the body within 3 days of its death. They always use the phase "Dead for 3 days" so I assumed that the body was still somewhat viable

 

There is no source for it. However, the "three days dead" saying is something connected to Nynaeve and her desire to Heal anything. Needless to say, Nynaeve is not in any way involved in the process of recycling dead forsaken.

 

Taimandred is NOT true. For the 5,000,000,000th time, RJ has confirmed that TAIM IS NOT DEMANDRED.

 

Thank you :D

[Leopoled Boothe]

Dashiva looked very old, while no age was ever mentioned I'd say he was at least in his 50s. Halima could be anything between early 20s and early- to mid 30s. Selene appeared as a young woman because lanfear used Mask of Mirrors, as we saw in TSR when she revelaed her true appearance to Rand.

 

As for lord Brend, Samon and Natael, those were the forsakens own appearances, so them looking older than 30 is no problem at all. Kellie was again Lanfear using Mask of Mirrors, so she could look however she wanted.

 

Well Maji while I appriciate the corrections, all of this is beside the point. The point is that Taim could be Be'lal using a Mask of Mirrors and therefore like Lanfear he could look however he wants. Thus Taim appearing to be over 30 (or in his mid 20' as the case may be) proves nothing.

 

I am pretty sure the body used in the recycling must be able to channel. As we see when the 'Gars are introduced, there is need for suitable bodies, and considering that Osan'gar/Dashiva got a body that was close to useless for anything more physical than walking straight forward, the required suitability almost must be ability to channel. That Aran'gar still channels Saidin despite the sexchange rather implies that the ability to channel is not specified to Saidin or Saidiar, just channeling in general, and then the soul decides which it will be.

 

I'm not convinced. My personal opinion is that a "Suitable Body" means one that cam be made to function again. For example the body cannot be long dead and decayed nor can it have any limbs hacked off, any major organs damaged or be otherwise seriously mutulated.

 

To further the argument that the body has nothing to do with a persons ability to channel consider that with the exception of Cyndane each recycled Forsaken has the same stregngh in the power in his new body as he did in his origional. Moreover, channelers who enter TAR (not in the flesh) have the same abiltiy to channel as they do in the waking world. This implyes that the body does not hinder the soul's ability the channel in any way.

[Gentled Ben]

I'm not convinced. My personal opinion is that a "Suitable Body" means one that cam be made to function again.

RJ has stated that the ability to channel is the result of a genetic recessive gene, and therefore, it's a physical factor. Finding a suitable body means finding one that's alive and can channel.

 

To further the argument that the body has nothing to do with a persons ability to channel consider that with the exception of Cyndane each recycled Forsaken has the same stregngh in the power in his new body as he did in his origional.

 

That's probably why the DO had such difficulty finding suitable bodies. Finding two healthy male bodies that can channel...challenging. Finding two that can channel with the abilties of Aginor and Balthamel... nigh on impossible, considering the success of the Red ajah over the milleniums. Remember, he already had to come up with one for Ishamael. We don't know for certain what happened to Lanfear, so we can really only speculate as to why she's weaker as Cyndane, but as her circumstances are unique (having been tossed abruptly into another dimension where channeling is forbidden by the inhabitants while channeling at her full capacity through an angreal), and her new channeling ability (that is, less-than what it was before) is also unique, we might reasonably surmise that there's a correlation between the circumstances of her demise and her current ability to channel. Also, she really screwed up; the others that were transmigrated were destroyed in the DO's good graces, but Lanfear was a loose cannon playing her own game the whole way. Maybe the DO puposefully cut her down to size.

 

Of course, now that I've put this down on paper, so to speak, it occurs to me that perhaps, strength in the power is determined by the soul, rather than the body, as Balthamel was surely stronger than all but the strongest female channelers. I've read statements to the effect that the Forsaken weren't necessarily more than middling in strength for their Age, and I think there's some possible credibility to that, yet in Ishamael and Lanfear, we know that we are dealing with channelers of the greatest known strengths, and in the case of Balthamel, the Guide states that the reason he held his teaching position despite his temper and debauchery was his remarkable strength in the power.

 

Asmodean tells Rand that men are stronger in the power to about the same extent that they are stronger than women physically, with about the same number of exceptions, so if Balthamel was strong enough to be remarkable for his strength, and channeling strength has to do with the physical body (note: strength in power, not ability to channel), then Halima would be a most remarkable woman, indeed. I think that's unlikely, so strength must be a function of the soul. Which has nothing, of course, to do with this ridiculous Belal=Taim theory, although Belal = Taim is a fun topic to speculate on, but only within the realm of "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if..."

[Asgard Thorin]

Option E: Taim and Bel'al were separate entities but after Bel'al was corpus-defunct, thanks to our favorite Aes Sedai, Taim was Luc-ified/Bel'al was Isam-ified

[Asgard Thorin]

Can you provide a sourse on this? I always assumed that the DO had to get ahold of the body within 3 days of its death. They always use the phase "Dead for 3 days" so I assumed that the body was still somewhat viable

 

There is no source for it. However, the "three days dead" saying is something connected to Nynaeve and her desire to Heal anything. Needless to say, Nynaeve is not in any way involved in the process of recycling dead forsaken.

 

I think the three days dead is just an English expression that the author did not decide to re-word.

[Cybertrolloc]

I'm not convinced. My personal opinion is that a "Suitable Body" means one that cam be made to function again. For example the body cannot be long dead and decayed nor can it have any limbs hacked off' date=' any major organs damaged or be otherwise seriously mutulated.[/quote']

I'm reminded of Dem in the LoC prologue: raids into the Borderlands have stopped so there's few captives to make Myrdraal swords with. Only Beth and Aginor have been ressed at this point (presumably, but I'd hate to have Ishy and Lanfear running around off camera for months). Maybe they keep a fridge full of suitable bodies for transmigration though :shock: Maybe from the Gray Men (and making gray man is probably part of the transmigration process too, but we don't know how that's done either)?

 

It's problematic to have to find a channeling capable body to work with: Myrdraal can sense the power being used (SH being unique in that he can tell Saidar from Saidin according to him), but I don't see a way to detect channelers outside of the ways females can sense other Saidar users (and 2 out of the 4 ressed--assuming Lanfear is, but I'm ok with that one--are men).

 

Of the available options, I find B the best for any Taim is not Taim idea. Or at least I can't think of a reason why Taim couldn't have been who he said he was for the parts before he was freed sometime during tDR/tSR.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Option E: Taim and Bel'al were separate entities but after Bel'al was corpus-defunct, thanks to our favorite Aes Sedai, Taim was Luc-ified/Bel'al was Isam-ified

 

I'm hoping that was a joke ... but if not:

 

Luc and Isam are mentioned in the Dark Prophecy left on the wall of the prison in Fal Dara in The Great Hunt, before we even knew who Be'lal was. The merging of those two took place years before, when Luc, at the urging of Gitara Moroso, went into the Blight (where Isam had been since the Fall of Malkier). Both Taim and Be'lal are completely unrelated to Slayer.

 

Taim is Taim. Be'lal is deceased, toast, gone the way of the dodo, he cashed in his chips, he bought the farm, he checked out, he's croaked, he's done like dinner, he passed the end of the line, he gave up the ghost, he kicked the bucket, he's passed on, he snuffed it, he got whacked, nixed, exed, taken out, in short, he's D-E-D dead.

[Jonn]

Hate to be mean but..

 

NO ONE comes back from balefire.

 

So actually, no, Taim cannot be Be'lal in any hypothetical sense whatsoever.

 

Now, as for any possible way Be'lal being Taim...I'm not that nuts. You're on your own in deciding how that works. :roll:

 

That's too creative for me.

[Master of the Blades]

You have it all worng folks

 

Be'lal = Be'la

[SBoydW]

You have it all worng folks

 

Be'lal = Be'la

 

How could we have missed it!!! :shock: Be'lal is Bela! He was doubling as a horse!!! That was one way to get close to Rand. And everyone is wondering what happened to Bela... she is no more... balefire... Bela we will miss thee. :cry:

[V1zharan]

Taim is Taim. Be'lal is deceased, toast, gone the way of the dodo, he cashed in his chips, he bought the farm, he checked out, he's croaked, he's done like dinner, he passed the end of the line, he gave up the ghost, he kicked the bucket, he's passed on, he snuffed it, he got whacked, nixed, exed, taken out, in short, he's D-E-D dead.

 

While I will admit it was slightly amusing seeing how many ways you can say he is dead, finding a bunch of ways to say he is dead doesn't make your argument any stronger. I say Taim is Taim, and that if he had been anyone it would have been Damandred(sp?), but he isn't, so Taim is Taim. So I am not taking sides here, just had to point out that reiterating your point that much doesn't help your argument, and if anything just hurts it.

 

btw, people, lets use this thread for its intended purpose, it says right in the starting post that this is not for people who just want to say Taim is not anyone else, its for peoples theories, so, if I may twist the saying a bit, "If you don't have anything on topic to say, don't say anything at all."

 

~V1zharan~

[RobertAlexWillis]

While I will admit it was slightly amusing seeing how many ways you can say he is dead, finding a bunch of ways to say he is dead doesn't make your argument any stronger.

 

While thats true, it also doesn't take anything away from my argument, which I had already made in previous posts on this thread. So, since I didn't feel like repeating myself again, I just chose to be funny.

 

btw, people, lets use this thread for its intended purpose, it says right in the starting post that this is not for people who just want to say Taim is not anyone else, its for peoples theories, so, if I may twist the saying a bit, "If you don't have anything on topic to say, don't say anything at all."

 

Do you mean, for example, like pointing out to someone that making a joke doesn't strengthen an argument that they had already made? 'Cause I think someone did that .... :twisted:

[Asgard Thorin]

I'm not saying Slayer is Be'lal Taim. I am saying that the same thing happened to Be'lal Taim that happened to Slayer. Sheesh!!!!!

[stoneface]

I don't think we can conclude anything. Three topics: (1) What is the fate of Be'lel after Moiraine hit him with balefire in the middle of a crowd in the Heart of the Stone? (2) Who or what is Mazrim Taim in LoC and onward? (3) Is there a connection between the two?

 

NO ONE comes back from balefire.

 

All references in the text that I found regard Rahvin, who was obliterated (several hours back since Mat and the others are alive) by balefire. No mention of Be'lal by the DO in LoC prologue, or in Demandred's instructions to the others (in the text). Any source to quote on whether the amount of balefire does or does not affect the ability of the DO to bring back a Forsaken? Moiraine's balefire (tDR) was a small blast to destroy the target in a crowd, while Rand hit Rahvin with as much balefire as he could create because he wanted the time reversal effect (FoH). Despite the balefire, Be'lal available at RJ's option.

 

Taim is Taim.

 

Why would a Saldaean shave??? Was Davram Basheare's inability to recognize Mazrim Taim just due to removing the beard? Saldaeans do tend to have hooked noses, but the men always have beards. If Taim had shaved to evade detection before joining Rand, why did he not regrow the beard? Why all the references that make him sound like one of the Forsaken? "Taim is Taim" doesn't explain it.

 

This post is for those who believe that Be'lal = Taim.

 

If that is the case, then I would say that Be'lal was transmigrated into a new body and brought out during LoC, which clearly had the first two come out; I couldn't say whether the body originally belonged to Taim or to some other Saldaean and Be'lal is posing as Taim (Davram's observation indicates the latter). No need for the original Taim to have been a DF. The apparent Taim's tactical lockstep with Demandred could be explained by Demandred holding Be'lal's reins in some fashion. This is not proof, but I see it as a possibility.