Elayne's personality

[Viperswhip]

To be fair, it was misworded by Egwene to Elayne. Rand was holding the throne vacant for Elayne yet he had to establish dominance over the various Andoran nobles to do that. Given how long he was there I would have liked him to obtain guarantees from the nobles that they would support Elayne when she returned, and verify that it was Rhavin who had caused splits between Trakand and the various houses.

 

So, she responded in a perfect way, but Egwene screwed that one up.

 

Well, with regards to Perrin, she has never spent maybe more than a minute or two with him. She knows he is Rand's friend, so there is no way she will execute him, but she is testing him because she doesn't know him from a hole in the wall. I suppose she could presume that one of Rand's friends would not try to secede part of her kingdom, but she doesn't know that for sure.

 

They might become friends later, after TG, but they were not at the time.

[David Selig]

They're supposed to be friends and allies. My friend talked to me like that...and they'd be shelved in a hurry.

Since when they are supposed to be friends? Until this point they've didn't have a single scene together in the series. IIRC there is a mention or two that they were in each other's company a few times in the Stone back during TSR, but it really doesn't seem they are more than quite distant acquaintances.

 

And honestly, if I were a head of state and someone has entered my country with a huge army without bothering to ask my permission, I'd say a lot worse than Elayne did to Perrin.

[Leopard]

The problem is, Elayne doesn't really have a negotiable position: Perrin could beat her ass harder than Rand would tap it.

[David Selig]

Nonsense. Elayne could tie him Perrin with Air in a split second and have him at her mercy. She has by far the bigger and better trained army too, and the Kin gave this army a huge advantage in mobility.

[BFG]

In general I agree with the OP, her plotline since reaching Andor hasn't been the most rivoting to me personally, but through the first few books she was my favourite of the Powerpuff Girls, Nyn overtakes her around the time when she marries Lan, but for me, they're both streaks ahead of Eg. Having said that I think Eg's the better leader.

 

As for the Perrin encounter, it annoyed me, but she played it well (based on the information she had, it was the only way she could have played it). We know her opinion on Mat and Perrin isn't great after the Stone, she probably rates Perrin a little higher, based on Eg and Nyns opinion of the two of them, but the last information she's had until the meeting is that he had a massive argument with Rand, was thrown out (under threat of death?) and hasn't been seen since. He turns up with her mother and brother-in-law so that should gain him points - and does.

 

I see little evidence for arrogance or selfishness. She is thoughtless. All in all, I quite like her too.

 

 

 

Nonsense. Elayne could tie him Perrin with Air in a split second and have him at her mercy. She has by far a the bigger and better trained army too, and the Kin gave this army a huge advantage in mobility.

 

Not sure of this - Perrins army has people that went through Dumais Wells, attacked the Shaido, fended off masses of Shadowspawn. Elayne has an army that sat in a siege for a while and likely has experience in border 'skirmishes' - as will some of Perrins. The kin only giver her travelling when one of them remember that they can link (the second ridiculous bargain with the WF), she will, or should, have the healthier army tho.

[Drakkon]

. She is thoughtless.

 

This is why I do not like her. I actually find her to be down right stupid at times. And her oops oh well attitude doesn't help.

[Mr Ares]

Her relationship with Rand is also another thing that irks me. He saves Camelyn, he rules there, he gives it up to her, and she acts like 'DUH! He better'...he's the freaking Dragon. Here is someone who has more political power, and actual power than her...and she still doesn't have respect. I didn't want her to bow and scrape or anything like some kind of subject, but here is someone who is your equal...a level of give and take would be expected yes?

 

The issue of Rand "giving" her Caemlyn is one where the arrogance of her response is completely reasonable. Andorans wouldn't respect or accept a queen who was given the throne by someone else. She would be seen as a puppet and likely would be toppled in short order. The throne was hers by right, and she had to claim it in the usual way in order to be an effective queen.

 

Toppled in short order? LOL. Not likely. Who is going to challenge the Dragon? He had Aiel marching in the streets. Andorman still remember the Aiel. They might have hated a foreigner being the ruler, or the 'man behind the throne' but they couldn't do squat about it.

 

Trying to stay on topic...the situation as it was was that he had the city, he had control, and he made it clear he was keeping the throne for her by his own choice. He didn't have to give it to her. She's lucky he didn't just say, yep, swear allegiance to me as my vassal queen or be destroyed. He's held every other throne. Given all that, I'd think she should have been more humble about the situation, not the 'how dare you presume to take my throne!' sort of attitude.

 

Again, maybe it's a bad example...but it's one in a long list that bother me.

Who would challenge the Dragon? Good point. The series thus far has been full of universal agreement with the idea that Rand wants only the best, and following him without complaint is the best course of action. And yes, Rand held the city - but he didn't hold the country. There is a lot more to Andor than just one city. Further, if the population of Andor did decide to rebel, then what could Rand do? Devote significant resources to killing the people who are meant to be fighting the Last Battle? Ignore it and lose effective control? If the people of Andor decided they'd rather be dead than ruled by the Dragon, then Rand has no effective power over them - he ruled only because he was allowed to rule (it's the nature of power, not just in Rand's case). If Elayne was seen purely as a puppet of Rand's, it would undermine her power. Perhaps she would rule today, and tomorrow, but the day after? She needs to rule in her own right, and it is best to be seen right from the start to be ruling in her own right, as it will prevent problems further down the line. Rand meant well in what he did, but he undermined her position, in a number of ways. If someone makes my job harder, I don't thank them for it. If they do it enough, I give them a dressing down of the like the code of conduct would forbid me from giving anyone here. Elayne had every right to be annoyed at how Rand had handled things, even if he meant well. It really is not a character flaw in her.

 

And it is a bad example of a problem in Elayne, but a good example of the habit people have of criticising her for things that really don't deserve criticism.

 

Perrin why shouldn't I have you executed!? Ummm 'cause I have a massive army here and you're weak from the war of succession, I have ashaman, wise-ones, aiel, and power forged weapons, Rand is counting on me to fight in the last battle and won't be best pleased if you do anything to me...nevermind Saldea, I'm a freaking wolf brother and wolf-dream walker with a big ass maul and I'd like to see you try?

 

They're supposed to be friends and allies. My friend talked to me like that...and they'd be shelved in a hurry.

Aside from them not being friends, and how Perrin does not have a decided advantage in battle (Elayne has more and more experienced troops, channelers of her own [and the Aiel would probably not feel the need to support him, so he has no Wise Ones], he doesn't have Saldaea, so she really doesn't need to mind it, power-forged weapons are not a great advantage, Rand wouldn't be best pleased if he did anything to her either, what with her being his girlfriend and all, as well as a valuable ally, wolfbrotheriness doesn't help here, and nor does being a Dreamwalker all that much, so his biggest advantage is the size of his weapon), let us also bear in mind that this is a pretty terrible response. "You've stolen part of my kingdom and raised an army - why shouldn't I hang you as the traitor you show every sign of being" is a legitimate question for her to ask, but "I'll smack you with a hammer if you try" is basically just might makes right. Perrin would be claiming he has every right to do what he want as long as he has the power to do it. If Elayne responded to that by tying him up with Air and tossing him out the window, then it would be a justified response by the moral standards Perrin himself was espousing. Her threat allowed her to get the measure of the man (and fortunately he's a better man than you would write him as), and set the playing field for their negotiations.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Nonsense. Elayne could tie him Perrin with Air in a split second and have him at her mercy. She has by far the bigger and better trained army too, and the Kin gave this army a huge advantage in mobility.

 

I think you're forgetting A) it's been stated like 10 times that while pregnant she can barely channel at all....so she's at the weakest she's been since about book 1-2 when she's just going to learn how to channel. She had trouble with the tea cup...

 

And B)...what army? She's got the queen's guard in the city and a bunch of mercenaries outside the city walls. IMO her 'army' is NOTHING compared to the force Perrin has mustered. Those merc's... untrustworthy at best, Elayne makes mention of that in the books. Who are they going to follow? The queen, surrounded and fighting a larger army? Or a tav'eren army with casters and power wrote weapons...*hmmmmm*

 

 

I think Elayne (and Morgase before her) acted the part more than had any real power. They are a nation state in decline and clinging to the power of old, negotiating and acting with a force of will like they still are as powerful as they once were. We see the borders shrinking (the West/Two Rivers, Cairhein), and has been stated in the past (the great hunt I think) nations borders shrink as nations can no longer protect their lands they hold, eventually the nations dissolving into nothing.

 

That's where I think the arrogance comes in. Talking without backing, talking without actual power/ability, and demanding things.

 

 

As to Perrin-Elayne...I guess they're not good friends, haven't really been together since Tear...but since she's already talked with Morgase and Galad pre-meeting him...you'd think she'd have a better idea of who she's dealing with, what type of man, and know the situation (which is why I think the argument 'how can she really know if Perrin is telling the truth' argument is so flawed. Morgase and Galad will attest he is not a liar). Again, if it wasn't for Perrin a good chunk of 'her kingdom' would be in ashes. She owes him for protecting 'her realm' if nothing else.

 

 

And the #1 thing that bothers the HELL out of me about her...it's the apocalypse The last battle. They're fighting for the very survival of the world. People are gathering armies and marching to the last battle...and she's working out marriage contracts and trying to conquer other nations. Mat comes to her with desperate need for cannons to help even the odds against the Trollocs to save lives and hopefully win the battle...and she's negotiating what happens to them after the war. Even Eggy with all her faults is focused on the TG, rallying the AS and pointing people in the right direction. Everyone is rallying, and working to get to the blight...Elayne's involved in herself and her power.

 

Time to put the resources of Andor to work. She should be (or Birgitte or a proxy/general) marching to battle with everything that can be spared. All the resources of the kingdom put forward to winning the battle.

 

Aside from the Seanchan...Andor is the only place not in full out war against the Dark One.

[BFG]

^ I can't fault Elayne for planning for victory after the TG. The Seanchan are a real threat, and if the Kin do establish there then Andor is suddenly going to be a real target of interest for them.

 

EDIT: At this stage she knows that Mat has married the Seanchan Empress, it's entirely reasonable (and important) that she prevents the Seanchan from gaining these weapons.

[Suttree]

And B)...what army? She's got the queen's guard in the city and a bunch of mercenaries outside the city walls. IMO her 'army' is NOTHING compared to the force Perrin has mustered. Those merc's... untrustworthy at best, Elayne makes mention of that in the books. Who are they going to follow? The queen, surrounded and fighting a larger army? Or a tav'eren army with casters and power wrote weapons...*hmmmmm*

 

What are you on about? She has all of the forces the nobles can rally at this point. 250,000 men in total, the single largest army in Randland. You are taking as if the succession is still going on. Elayne has the far more powerful force and the better trained one(Perrin has peasants with some battle experience backed up by peasants with zero battle experience, with 1,900 soldies from Mayene and Ghealdean sprinkled in). As for her channeling being pregnant doesn't make her anymore "weak" than before. She just has trouble grasping the source some times.

 

Also quickly to touch on Rand "giving" her the throne the books make very clear what would have happened had Elayne said she was excepting it from him.

 

TPoD

She stopped at the foot of the dais, looking up. "I’ve been hearing for two days that you were alive, but I didn’t really believe it until now. You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?"

"I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man." Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. "How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If Elayne had said that yes I am she would have not had Dyelin's, or the rest of the High Seats support and Rand would have found himself fighting a far bigger war than the succession. The sentiment with both the nobles and the country was very anti-DR at the time(the nobles had vowed to come against him should he stay and the countryside was grumbling about marching on Caemlyn). It is one that he would eventually win but it would be an utterly pyhrric victory and a disaster on the eve of TG. We also must note he was in no position to "give" her anything. Yes he liberated Caemlyn and served as regent for a time but he did not hold the country nor did he rule there. Andor was never his to give.

 

Lastly let's put to bed this nonsense about the "death threat" while negotiating. It was a bargaining ploy and one she was in the right to use. As Mr Ares said...

 

let us also bear in mind that this is a pretty terrible response. "You've stolen part of my kingdom and raised an army - why shouldn't I hang you as the traitor you show every sign of being" is a legitimate question for her to ask, but "I'll smack you with a hammer if you try" is basically just might makes right. Perrin would be claiming he has every right to do what he want as long as he has the power to do it.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Personally, my anger for Elayne's attitude makes me almost want to cheer for the Dark One to beat Rand/Perrin/Mat/Moraine/Egwene/Nynaeve and all the armies.

 

I would love to see Andor then..."I have so much land and power and ...oh."

 

 

...almost.

 

 

 

I honestly really don't understand why anyone likes or defends her. Of all the characters in the series she's the one who's grown the least. Mid series she was growing and evolving and making bold choices to help her friends and do what was right...but since she got back to her kingdom...she's regressed...

[Jak o' the Shadows]

 

What are you on about? She has all of the forces the nobles can rally at this point. 250,000 men in total, the single largest army in Randland. You are taking as if the succession is still going on.

 

I'm talking like houses were weakened by the war....like...people died. Yeah weird I know.

[Suttree]

What are you on about? She has all of the forces the nobles can rally at this point. 250,000 men in total, the single largest army in Randland. You are taking as if the succession is still going on.

 

I'm talking like houses were weakened by the war....like...people died. Yeah weird I know.

 

In reality very few people died and those from a minimal number of houses. Not sure what your point is considering Elayne has the far superior numbers?

 

Edit: To touch on channelers, which you claimed Perrin has more of for some odd reason. This from the WotFaq Military Round Up:

 

There are about one hundred and twenty five channellers helping Elayne and none bound by the Three Oaths (Knife of Dreams, House on Full Moon Street).

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Sutt, no idea where you're getitng YOUR numbers from, and how you know 'not a lot of people died'...maybe we're reading different books but I remember the battle for Camlyn being won at the 11th hour after a major battle. That battle included basically all the powerful houses and their troops (referenced by the scene where the old guy is in charge of the estate/land 'cause everyone else is off fighting the war of succession).

 

You don't have a siege for days and battle in front of the gates without some serious bloodshed.

 

Elayne also makes note of how she can barely keep law and order with her forces spread as thin as they are (and so many refugees in the city)...hence why she's hiring merc bands in the first place.

 

 

I don't have the books in front of me, but my memory seems to recall Morgase? Berelain? A wise one? Someone is commenting on the size, skill, and armaments of Perrin's army. Been awhile since I went through how that army is built but he's pulled a lot of pieces from a lot of places with a Monarch and the WhiteCloaks bolstering his force. I can't recall just how many Aiel (and possible former Gaishan) he got after the whole Faile-Shaido thing. Nor how many dragonsworn he's picked up along the way. In my mind it was around the 100k mark...but I am not sure where I got that number from. Could be high, could be low.

[David Selig]

Nonsense. Elayne could tie him Perrin with Air in a split second and have him at her mercy. She has by far the bigger and better trained army too, and the Kin gave this army a huge advantage in mobility.

 

I think you're forgetting A) it's been stated like 10 times that while pregnant she can barely channel at all....so she's at the weakest she's been since about book 1-2 when she's just going to learn how to channel. She had trouble with the tea cup...

Wrong. What has been stated plenty of times is that she has troubles only with the initial embracing of saidar. Once she's done this (which was clearly the case during the meeting), she can channel as strong as ever. We've seen her open large gateways and incinerate people while pregnant.

 

And B)...what army? She's got the queen's guard in the city and a bunch of mercenaries outside the city walls. IMO her 'army' is NOTHING compared to the force Perrin has mustered

What the...

 

The six Houses who stayed out of the Succession War had mobilised force of about 60 000 which were right near Caemlyn at the end of Kod and are Elayne's now that she's accepted as Queen (read Elayne's last chapter in KoD if you don't believe me). Elayne herself had something like 15 000 at the end of the war, many others somewhere on the way to the capital and must've arrived by now. Most of Arymilla's forces are hers now, and the whole of Andor continues to gets mobilised in the period since then. She has thousands of experienced professional soldiers from Queen's Guard.

 

And the #1 thing that bothers the HELL out of me about her...it's the apocalypse The last battle. They're fighting for the very survival of the world. People are gathering armies and marching to the last battle...and she's working out marriage contracts and trying to conquer other nations. Mat comes to her with desperate need for cannons to help even the odds against the Trollocs to save lives and hopefully win the battle...and she's negotiating what happens to them after the war. Even Eggy with all her faults is focused on the TG, rallying the AS and pointing people in the right direction. Everyone is rallying, and working to get to the blight...Elayne's involved in herself and her power.

 

Time to put the resources of Andor to work. She should be (or Birgitte or a proxy/general) marching to battle with everything that can be spared. All the resources of the kingdom put forward to winning the battle.

 

Aside from the Seanchan...Andor is the only place not in full out war against the Dark One.

Andor is mobilising and preparing full time for the Last battle and Elayne is leading this effort on this all the time. Taking over Cairhien helps with this too, since it ends the political instability and the power vacuum there. Same for the Perrin deal. The less internal distractions, the better.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Went and tried to find some info on army size...not sure how accurate this is...but here is what they have to report (they report Perrin's army as smaller than I had in my head (unless you count the refugees as being fully trained soldiers), but so too do they have Andor vs. what you said Sutt) http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/136

 

 

Andor

The heart of Andor’s army is the Queen’s Guard, but Rahvin’s creation of the White Lion and decimation of those loyal to Morgase greatly weakened this unit. However, as we saw in Knife of Dreams, many of the old Queen’s Guard soldier loyal to Trakand and Andor are on their way to Caemlyn. Andor’s current Captain General is the legendary Hero of the Horn Birgitte Silver Bow. Gawyn Trakand, First Prince of the Sword, will probably be prevented by events from returning to Andor. However, Matrim Cauthon and his army have Travelled there.

The state of the Succession and the siege of Caemlyn triggered most Andoran houses into mobilizing their forces, thus leading to a highly militarized state. Therefore Elayne’s success in claiming the throne has in effect unified most of Andor’s strength, and the army is prepared for action.

Before the major battle for Caemlyn, Elayne had slightly over twenty thousand men in Caemlyn (Queen’s Guard included) ( Knife of Dreams, To Keep the Bargain and Nine Out of Ten). Yet this was far from all the strength her house and those of her five supporters could lend her; the siege had kept many of her people away from the city. On the other hand, now that the siege is over the rest of her supporters will be free to join her, thus we could expect to see a noticeable increase in size of her original supporter’s forces. Speculation: final numbers for the first six houses to support her should reach over forty thousand, in addition to near ten thousand Queen’s Guards and mercenary companies.

Arathelle, Luan, Abelle, Aemlyn, Pelivar, and Ellorien have close to sixty thousand men between them—although many of these will be drafted village folk who are under trained, inexperienced and lack proper arms and armor (Knife of Dreams, A Bronze Bear, The Importance of Dyelin). Of these six, five are pledged to support Elayne and Ellorien has pledged to send her troops to the Last Battle with the other Andoran troops (Knife of Dreams,The Importance of Dyelin). Lir, Karind, and Sylvase should have fifteen or twenty thousand men left (considering casualties and those taken by Jarid). Arymilla’s, Naean’s and Elenia/Jarid’s forces are currently reduced and unreliable; although Elayne’s coronation should put an end to the fighting.

On a good day Andor could field up to one hundred and thirty to a hundred and fifty thousand men—Queen’s Guard, mercenaries, and noble’s armsmen, and regular draftees many of whom will be elderly or inexperienced and half trained. In Knife of Dreams, The Importance of Dyelin, Elayne said that if they gathered all of Andor’s strength (not all of which are pledged to Elayne yet) they couldnearly match the Borderlanders’ numbers (two hundred thousand) but two thirds of their forces would be under-trained.

There are about one hundred and twenty five channellers helping Elayne and none bound by the Three Oaths (Knife of Dreams, House on Full Moon Street).

 

edit: Perrin's army. I guess I got that 100k from the refugees who are being trained....IF they were all now capable at fighting, then his force is close to matching everything Andor has...

 

 

Perrin’s Army

It consists of three to four thousand Two Rivers bowmen (Knife of Dreams, The Last Knot), close to nine hundred Mayener Winged Guards (The Path of Daggers, A Simple Country Woman), and close to a thousand Ghealdan Lancers (Winter’s Heart, The Scent of Madness). There were some Aiel Maidens, six Wise Ones, three Aes Sedai, and two Asha’man with Perrin. At least some of the Aiel with Perrin apparently left this group to join the clans in Arad Doman (and are probably now in Tear). A hundred thousand refugees are also with Perrin.

Galad and his forces have met up with Perrin (The Gathering Storm, A Promise to Lews Therin) and may have joined him. In The Gathering Storm, Scents Unknown, Perrin was camped near the Jehennah Road.

There used to be close to twenty thousand vagabonds armed with a variety of weapons ( Knife of Dreams, The Last Knot) in the Prophet’s Army, but the battle with the Shaido reduced their numbers considerably: According to Tylee:

“Masema’s men held to the point of suicide—most of them are dead or dying…”

-

Knife of Dreams,

Outside the Gates

 

Masema left with less than one hundred of his bodyguard and they were all killed by Faile and her group (The Gathering Storm,Prologue).

[Suttree]

Sutt, no idea where you're getitng YOUR numbers from, and how you know 'not a lot of people died'...maybe we're reading different books but I remember the battle for Camlyn being won at the 11th hour after a major battle. That battle included basically all the powerful houses and their troops (referenced by the scene where the old guy is in charge of the estate/land 'cause everyone else is off fighting the war of succession).

 

Not sure what books you are reading then and I suggest you go back and do a reread. Why on earth would you think that every one of the High Seats was fighting against Elayne when many were sitting it out or not even present? Arymilia only had three other houses with her fighting that war, the rest were sitting it out. Further are you forgetting how many troops from the houses Elayne had were trying to reach the capital but couldn't make it in time? That is why she was forced to use mercenaries in the first place. Something she no longer needs to do.

 

You can read up on Andor's forces here in an article which is widely thought to be conservative in it's estimates.

 

http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/136

 

Note this...

 

In Knife of Dreams, The Importance of Dyelin, Elayne said that if they gathered all of Andor’s strength (not all of which are pledged to Elayne yet*but they are now) they could nearly match the Borderlanders’ numbers (two hundred thousand)

 

Those numbers could match all of the borderland armies combined and is far larger than Perrin's.

[Viperswhip]

I like how this evolved into a Perrin v. Elayne showdown battle royale winner takes all discussion lol. Well, I am happy to partake in what ifs, AMoL is not so close that I don't have some spare time. So let's go.

 

Perrin beats Elayne, but Perrin is an invading army. None of the other nobles want to secede, they want Andor, complete. So, any problems Elayne had with the other nobles gets shelved until Perrin is out of the way. That's how they used the Borderlander army.

 

To be clear, the Kin would not participate other than in a healing capacity, so I guess Elayne wins on that. The Wise Ones, out, the Ashaman, out, none of them are getting involved, The Aeil, other than Gaul are sworn to Rand, you are not getting them either. Berelaine is out, so there go her guardsmen. Maybe Alliandre or whatever her name is stays the course, maybe.

 

So you have the Two Rivers folks, fighting other Andormen. I just don't see it working out for Perrin.

 

On another note, Rand held Andor, make no mistake, Andormen are Andormen, Perrin is the only one we have seen that came close to a secession like plot. Rand had a couple hundred thousand Aeil camped outside (can't be much in the way of plants left out there with all the Aiel then Mercs). So, nobody was going to be trying to oust him. Then there is the fact that, I think most of the general citizenry around the land, really believe that he is the Dragon Reborn. That may make them wet their pants, but they aren't going to oppose him to any degree that leads to combat. We haven't seen that anywhere yet.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

not sure viper. I made a comment that Perrin's army was larger than Elayne's so maybe she shouldn't be so quick to take the position of power and condensend.

 

turns out she may have more troops in her kingdom than perrin has next to her capital city. that means she has every right to talk the talk...

 

 

 

Sutt, no idea where you're getitng YOUR numbers from, and how you know 'not a lot of people died'...maybe we're reading different books but I remember the battle for Camlyn being won at the 11th hour after a major battle. That battle included basically all the powerful houses and their troops (referenced by the scene where the old guy is in charge of the estate/land 'cause everyone else is off fighting the war of succession).

 

Not sure what books you are reading then and I suggest you go back and do a reread. Why on earth would you think that every one of the High Seats was fighting against Elayne when many were sitting it out or not even present? Arymilia only had three other houses with her fighting that war, the rest were sitting it out. Further are you forgetting how many troops from the houses Elayne had were trying to reach the capital but couldn't make it in time? That is why she was forced to use mercenaries in the first place. Something she no longer needs to do.

 

You can read up on Andor's forces here in an article which is widely thought to be conservative in it's estimates.

 

http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/136

 

Note this...

 

In Knife of Dreams, The Importance of Dyelin, Elayne said that if they gathered all of Andor’s strength (not all of which are pledged to Elayne yet*but they are now) they could nearly match the Borderlanders’ numbers (two hundred thousand)

 

Those numbers could match all of the borderland armies combined and is far larger than Perrin's.

 

Behind the times...already linked that. So you are right Andor's full force (probably scattered all over hell) is larger than Perrin's army camped in one place....again, assuming you count the mercs, which I don't as their loyalty is in serious question.

 

The number are not completely beside the point, so I guess Elayne shouldn't have to be 'submissive' to Perrin...but she sure as **** better respect the fact that he has army that at least rivals everything she has. Sorry my number argument was off in one case where she displayed her condescending attitude, doesn't change my overall impression of her and her attitude

 

 

PS. If you want to point out facts....Andor does not have the largest army in Randland. Rand controls the largest army.

[Suttree]

On another note, Rand held Andor, make no mistake, Andormen are Andormen, Perrin is the only one we have seen that came close to a secession like plot.

 

No he didn't, he was "Regent" in Caemlyn for a short time. That is far from holding the entire country.

 

Rand had a couple hundred thousand Aeil camped outside (can't be much in the way of plants left out there with all the Aiel then Mercs). So, nobody was going to be trying to oust him. Then there is the fact that, I think most of the general citizenry around the land, really believe that he is the Dragon Reborn. That may make them wet their pants, but they aren't going to oppose him to any degree that leads to combat.

 

First want to note that the Aiel forces with Bashere were no where near 200,000. Also I provided the quote above with the nobles vowing to drive him out. We also have the same from the citizenry...

 

TPoD

’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway."

 

TPoD

In Andor, he was blamed for everything bad that happened for the last two or three years, including stillbirths and broken legs, infestations of grasshoppers, two-headed calves, and three-legged chickens. And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor. Not what she had hoped to hear, not a bit of it. But she heard it all again and again. It was not a pleasant journey at all. It was one long lesson in one of Lini’s favorite sayings. It isn’t the stone you see that trips you on your nose.

 

Make no mistake, had the nobles who vowed to come against him done so, they would have had the entire country behind them. Now as I said above Rand would almost certainly win, but it would have been a phyrric victory and a disaster on the eve of TG.

 

The number are not completely beside the point, so I guess Elayne shouldn't have to be 'submissive' to Perrin...but she sure as **** better respect the fact that he has army that at least rivals everything she has. Sorry my number argument was off in one case where she displayed her condescending attitude, doesn't change my overall impression of her and her attitude

 

 

PS. If you want to point out facts....Andor does not have the largest army in Randland. Rand controls the largest army.

 

But that is just the thing, it doesn't rival what she has. Not in the slightest, why would you think that every one of those refugees is a male of fighting age(they of course are not, at a guess Perrins army may have 70,000 if we are being generous. Out of that only 5,900 have battle experience, the vast majority being totally untrained civilians. This is against Andor's 200,000).

 

As for Rand's army yes, if you combine everything he has under his control it is quite impressive but that is rather beside the point. I was referring to individual nations when I said Andor has the largest.

 

Lastly back to Elayne's attitude just about every example you gave has been shot down by David, Mr Ares or myself. It seems as if you are holding to a very biased view on this one.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

OK suttree....lets pretend that Perrin doesn't have 120,000ish troops. Lets say Elayne does have 200,000ish troops (although you didn't link the full paragraph and the context DOES make a difference..."The Importance of Dyelin, Elayne said that if they gathered (ie. they are NOT all gathered) all of Andor’s strength (not all of which are pledged to Elayne yet) they could nearly match the Borderlanders’ numbers (two hundred thousand) but two thirds of their forces would be under-trained.)...and lets say that those are not 'rival' numbers/armies...

 

Does that mean she shouldn't respect him? She's knows he's an ally of the Dragon Reborn, she knows he has an army that is marching to war...and she takes that moment to discuss him raising the banner? I don't know. It's not meant to be the hard-rock case of why she's 'that personality'. It's an example of where her priorities are and what's important to her.

 

Now maybe you along with other people like the idea of her solidifying her rule so she can tend with the Seanchan post war. I'm in the you need to win the war first camp and that's why lots of her actions since taking the throne really bother me. I pin that on her personality. I pin that 'my kingdom first' attitude as being short sighted and selfish. If you disagree with that point, then we clearly have differing views and you probably like Elayne and her personality, you relate or at least understand her and her responsibilities to her nation. I see it as the good of Randland trumps all and she needs to be solely focused on that. Perrin and the Two Rivers is one example of a problem that could be dealt with IF they win TG.

[Suttree]

OK suttree....lets pretend that Perrin doesn't have 120,000ish troops. Lets say Elayne does have 200,000ish troops (although you didn't link the full paragraph and the context DOES make a difference..."The Importance of Dyelin, Elayne said that if they gathered (ie. they are NOT all gathered) all of Andor’s strength (not all of which are pledged to Elayne yet) they could nearly match the Borderlanders’ numbers (two hundred thousand) but two thirds of their forces would be under-trained.)

 

Ermm that was from KoD. The article clearly states that has changed as Andor readies for TG.

 

The state of the Succession and the siege of Caemlyn triggered most Andoran houses into mobilizing their forces, thus leading to a highly militarized state. Therefore Elayne’s success in claiming the throne has in effect unified most of Andor’s strength, and the army is prepared for action.

 

Also what 120,000 troops? How would you possibly reach that number. Not all of the refugees are men of fighting age and aside from that he only has 5,900 regular troops. Not to mention it doesn't matter that part of Elayne's levies are under-trained as whatever the number of refugees is that actually can fight(50-70,000 if we are very generous) has ZERO training. So not only does she have the advantage in numbers she has the better trained army by far. Elayne's 200,000 as it says above nearly matches ALL of the borderland nations combined.

 

Does that mean she shouldn't respect him? She's knows he's an ally of the Dragon Reborn, she knows he has an army that is marching to war...and she takes that moment to discuss him raising the banner? I don't know. It's not meant to be the hard-rock case of why she's 'that personality'. It's an example of where her priorities are and what's important to her.

 

Now maybe you along with other people like the idea of her solidifying her rule so she can tend with the Seanchan post war. I'm in the you need to win the war first camp and that's why lots of her actions since taking the throne really bother me. I pin that on her personality. I pin that 'my kingdom first' attitude as being short sighted and selfish. If you disagree with that point, then we clearly have differing views and you probably like Elayne and her personality, you relate or at least understand her and her responsibilities to her nation. I see it as the good of Rand land trumps all and she needs to be solely focused on that. Perrin and the Two Rivers is one example of a problem that could be dealt with IF they win TG.

 

Her priorities as are obvious is solidifying Andor and Cairehin to be ready for TG. She could not do that with two split countries. It is at the front of her thoughts and she reminds the nobles of this....

 

KoD

“Tarmon Gai’don is coming soon, Ellorien,” Elayne said. “You won’t be able to remain on your estates then.”

Ellorien paused, looking over her shoulder. “When Tarmon Gai’don comes, Traemane rides for the Last Battle, and we ride behind the Lion of Andor.” Thunder boomed as she strode out of the Grand Hall with her serving woman at her heels.

 

It is much the same as Eggy needing to unify the WT. Lastly you can not fault a Queen for looking to her countries best interests should they survive. In this case she is doing both, exactly as she should.

 

With Perrin she had a major issue on her hands. She has only recently come to power so what happens with the other nobles if she seems to reward someone for rebelling against the throne? You would have seen the other nobles drifting away quick had that been the case. She not only handled that situation deftly but did so in the only manner she could. She is Queen and it is her job to act as she did. Perhaps you just don't like the politics of it all? The reality is we have seen her put aside her political aspirations for the good of the world a number of times. She already has saved it once with the Bowl of Winds storyline when she just as easily could have only focused on Andor.

[Aulduron]

Oh, for the love of the Light, people! She was never going to behead Perrin. She simply learned to speak his language, by being blunt with him. Perrin don't play no Game of Houses.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Oh I dont' mind the politics, in fact the WT politics especially the Salidar/WT AS split was really interesting to me.

 

 

Rand already controls Cairehin...he 'intends it for Elayne' but there is no NEED to have them under her thumb in order to fight. I see it was using the situation to her advantage. They'll be fighting TG already, now they'll do it under her banner. That's what she wants. She just wants to control them and call the shots and reclaim what is 'rightfully hers'. You said 'like Eggy and the WT'...well that's not a fair comparison. In the WT there is hostility amongst themselves to the point where they are not fighting the right war. They just finished their civil war. Comparing Andor nobles to other Andor nobles with tension from the succession war IS a fair comparison to the WT....but not Cairehin and Andor. Cairehin and Andor...are not fighting. They both have the same enemy. They have history...but who doesn't? Hello Tear & Illian. They shelved that for TG...

 

 

I hardly think a one off line about TG to a snotty noble as a retort for them 'hiding away' accurately displays her actions and intent. The bulk of all her text is about Andor, Andor politics, Andor gaining strength, Andor interests, armies to fight for Andor and has been for the last couple books. The war of succession I get. After that, I do not. She's the ONLY monarch who is still focused on her nation. Other monarchs have picked up and left with their armies. They seem to understand the severity of the situation (again the Seanchan being an exception to the rule).

 

 

You make reasonable arguments for why she's doing what she's doing and if this was mid-story I might cut her some slack in this regard. But it's not. Her timing is suspect....I feel like....she's racketeering Profiting off the circumstances off the war. (here is the 'use the band to take Cairehin' argument...and if memory serves she says 'use the band' word for word) I have never liked how she talks to people (people may have a case for her not being friends with Perrin having spent little to no time with him...but that can not be said about Mat who she does know and owe). I dislike her decisions and actions in a variety of circumstances as being childish. People say foolish decisions, someone said 'immature'...I think 'immature' hits closer to the mark.

 

 

 

I don't know. People hate Egwene too. Up until she 'reunited the tower' and became 'Amyrlin in truth', I really liked Eggy. She's sort of regressed. I hated Nynaeve until she married Lan, then she changed and now she's great. Elayne, I liked in the early books even when she was being a bit pompous because I pictured her as being smoking hot. But since she's gone back to Andor there are a series of comments, and decisions that bother me. Characters evolve and change. There are examples of them being good and bad, good decisions and poor.

 

On the whole, as the plot lines are at right now, with where the characters are at right now...Elayne is the character I hate reading about the most. By far. And it's due to those decisions/comments/personality.

 

(PS. Thanks for the debate, but this is me signing off. I don't care for Elayne, came to post that...got too involved in this thread...getting the ol'blood pressure up and I need to step back. I don't really care if everyone else loves her or not. I don't. My reasons make sense to me, even if I don't explain them very well, or you don't read things the same way I do. Subjective reading/interpretation and all that. Glad you guys like her...this cat...does not.)

[Viperswhip]

Okay, thanks Sut, I may have overestimated Rand's position by quite a bit.

 

If Elayne was in trouble, the way she has been lately, she would have definitely tried to align the Black Tower even more strongly with Andor by getting them involved. We know Taim wouldn't check with Rand before sending some of his cronies to cause chaos. A war between Perrin and Elayne would only serve the Shadow, and killing Perrin after chewing up tons of troops on both sides is exactly what the the DO would want. I think no matter what Perrin loses then, even if Elayne is left with a skeletal army at the end and of no use in TG.