Are Mazrim Taim and Galad polarized characters that represent the best of each faction

[Eichhörnchen]

I find that in all the characters of WOT two of the most resolute in their nature are Galad and Taim.

 

 

Galad is fueled by a desire to serve a higher power he considers justice, order and law. Which is why he eventually ended up in the Whitecloaks. He is easily the greatest of the children of House Andor. Elayne and Gawyn both rank somewhat inferior in character, charisma and stature compared to him. Which is a continued source of envious dislike towards Galad from Elayne who probably feels slighted in a form. He also lacks the selfishness, petulant fits and other immature expressions often expressed by his siblings Elayne and Gawyn. Galad represents in his character all the European romantic notions of the enlightened and just ruler.

 

 

Taim on the other hand is the casebook Machiavellian. He serves no justice or higher power. But seems motivated solely at furthering his own power and station in life. He is highly intelligent, cunning and possesses no scruples. He is arguably one of the most intelligent characters in the book. Other main characters who attempt to spar wits with him failed disastrously such as when he made a mockery of Elayne in her own palace after she made the mistake of thinking herself more intelligent and powerful than him; which simply ended in him being amused and even slighting her to such an extreme that he with wordplay outright threatened the young Queen. Taim is a born politician, leader and military general. Taim in this way represents in his character all the rationalist notions of the successful leader.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Taim on the other hand is the casebook Machiavellian. He serves no higher power.

Oh yes he does.

 

He is arguably one of the most intelligent characters in the book

This may be true, but it's not the whole story. His entire success hinges on the fact that Rand, bizarrely enough, completely ignored the Black Tower, despite highly troubling reports and rumors coming from that place. Had Rand and his entourage decided to keep a tighter leash on 500+ half-insane male channellers, Taim's reign would have been over before it began.

[Eichhörnchen]

Taim on the other hand is the casebook Machiavellian. He serves no higher power.

Oh yes he does.

 

He is arguably one of the most intelligent characters in the book

This may be true, but it's not the whole story. His entire success hinges on the fact that Rand, bizarrely enough, completely ignored the Black Tower, despite highly troubling reports and rumors coming from that place. Had Rand and his entourage decided to keep a tighter leash on 500+ half-insane male channellers, Taim's reign would have been over before it began.

 

The first is subjective. It was never shown that he serves anyone. His actions are also to no parties advantage but his own. If he in fact should he be a darkfriend, he would be an incredibly horrible one in that he directly broke a direct command of the DO and seems to be following his own agenda. I don't believe Randland is purely black and white. Simply because you're amoral, manipulative and sociopathic that you're automatically in allegiance to the creature beyond the bore. I believe that Taim is simply a wildcard that is loyal to neither side, dark or light, but his own.

 

Also the 2nd is also an interesting point. Do you find it implausible that Taim would not have raised a new army in the anarchy that was Randland? He is certainly not lacking in the charisma or ambition department.

[Wool-headed lummox]

The first is subjective. It was never shown that he serves anyone. His actions are also to no parties advantage but his own. If he in fact should he be a darkfriend, he would be an incredibly horrible one in that he directly broke a direct command of the DO and seems to be following his own agenda. I don't believe Randland is purely black and white. Simply because you're amoral, manipulative and sociopathic that you're automatically in allegiance to the creature beyond the bore. I believe that Taim is simply a wildcard that is loyal to neither side, dark or light, but his own.

I... I'll just say that most people have known that Mazrim Taim is a Darkfriend since Winter's Heart, and TGS/ToM left very little doubts in this regard. You should read the series, if you haven't done so already.

 

I don't believe Randland is purely black and white.

Sorry, wrong book.

 

 

Also the 2nd is also an interesting point. Do you find it implausible that Taim would not have raised a new army in the anarchy that was Randland? He is certainly not lacking in the charisma or ambition department.

Taim would have been sent to the White Tower and gentled, if it weren't for outside help. As for a new army... well, an army of regular swordsmen is far less impressive than an army of channellers.

[David Selig]

I don't see what so great about Galad honestly. Apart from his looks, he had the charisma of a block of wood. His decision to join the Whitecloaks even though he knew very well they were enemies of Morgase and Andor was mindbogglingly dumb. He was ready to get their whole army dead to try to punish one suspected Darkfriend. He ended up swearing to follow a guy who has killed a bunch of Whitecloaks.

 

Taim is a similar case. Given how incredibly dumb Rand has been in dealing with him, gifting him total control over the Asha'men and letting him without any supervision, he should've turned everyone there into Darkfriend by now. He only looks reasonably competent because his fellow evil characters are such buffoons.

[Suttree]

The first is subjective. It was never shown that he serves anyone. His actions are also to no parties advantage but his own. If he in fact should he be a darkfriend, he would be an incredibly horrible one in that he directly broke a direct command of the DO and seems to be following his own agenda.

 

Have you read ToM? How can there be any doubt who he serves? "Let The Lord of chaos rule", forsaken sigils on the property, Shayol Gol rock at the BT, a dream spike on loan from Moridin and as of ToM it's obvious he has been turning people and that takes mydraal.

 

Won't say anything else but you really should read the AMoL advance materials.

[Suttree]

The first is subjective. It was never shown that he serves anyone. His actions are also to no parties advantage but his own. If he in fact should he be a darkfriend, he would be an incredibly horrible one in that he directly broke a direct command of the DO and seems to be following his own agenda.

 

Have you read ToM? How can there be any doubt who he serves? "Let The Lord of chaos rule", forsaken sigils on the property, Shayol Gol rock at the BT, a dream spike on loan from Moridin and as of ToM it's obvious he has been turning people and that takes myddraal.

 

Won't say anything else but you really should read the AMoL advance materials.

[TootThatHorn]

I can't view Galad as charismatic at all. If he were a real person in our world I would have described him as a semi sociopathic fanatic, given that his standards for right and wrong are TOO strong, and obviously violence is not an answer that is out of the question. Although I do find it funny that as steadfast to his principles as he has been described, his character has drifted away from that a little after dealing with Perrin in ToM, nor would I assume Berelain to be a character he would go after.

 

As far as Taim, enough was said about him, but for all the adjectives descibing him, I would label him more ragingly arrogant than anything else. Do like his character though, I'm looking forward to reading more of him.

[Yosarian]

I don't see what so great about Galad honestly. Apart from his looks, he had the charisma of a block of wood. His decision to join the Whitecloaks even though he knew very well they were enemies of Morgase and Andor was mindbogglingly dumb. He was ready to get their whole army dead to try to punish one suspected Darkfriend.

 

He was ready to risk his army to fight against an army that he believed was led by a darkfriend. Isn't that what the good guys are supposed to do? His attitude was basically "well, we have to either fight his army now or fight him at the Last Battle, either way if he's a darkfriend he's the enemy".

 

Of course he was wrong about Perrin being a darkfriend, but he was actually willing to listen to evidence to convince him that he was wrong about it.

[David Selig]

I don't see what so great about Galad honestly. Apart from his looks, he had the charisma of a block of wood. His decision to join the Whitecloaks even though he knew very well they were enemies of Morgase and Andor was mindbogglingly dumb. He was ready to get their whole army dead to try to punish one suspected Darkfriend.

 

He was ready to risk his army to fight against an army that he believed was led by a darkfriend. Isn't that what the good guys are supposed to do? His attitude was basically "well, we have to either fight his army now or fight him at the Last Battle, either way if he's a darkfriend he's the enemy".

 

Of course he was wrong about Perrin being a darkfriend, but he was actually willing to listen to evidence to convince him that he was wrong about it.

No, the good guys are supposed to not get thousands killed just so they can punish a single Darkfriend. Besides, given that Perrin had the larger army, chances are he would get away anyway if there was a battle between his army and Galad's, and thousands would've died for nothing.

 

Besides, there was no evidence Perrin's army was made of Darkfriends, so why would Galad expect to fight them in the Last Battle? I don't recall him thinking this.

[wcbrooks]

I find that in all the characters of WOT two of the most resolute in their nature are Galad and Taim.

 

 

Galad is fueled by a desire to serve a higher power he considers justice, order and law. Which is why he eventually ended up in the Whitecloaks. He is easily the greatest of the children of House Andor. Elayne and Gawyn both rank somewhat inferior in character, charisma and stature compared to him. Which is a continued source of envious dislike towards Galad from Elayne who probably feels slighted in a form. He also lacks the selfishness, petulant fits and other immature expressions often expressed by his siblings Elayne and Gawyn. Galad represents in his character all the European romantic notions of the enlightened and just ruler.

 

 

I do not think Galad was fueled by a desire to serve a higher power - I think his right and wrong philosophy played a big part in his chosing the Whitecloaks especially with the Chaos and his missing sister and friends. Charisma I do not think he has due not people liking his nature. He also does have one immature trait/expression that is of tattling - running off to his mum or whoever is in charge and telling on them for doing something wrong.

Between him and his siblings it is normal to carry on these feelings into early adulthood, as they still assume the other are still like that.

[Yosarian]

Besides, there was no evidence Perrin's army was made of Darkfriends, so why would Galad expect to fight them in the Last Battle? I don't recall him thinking this.

 

It is right there in the book. Towers of Midnight, page 175

 

He'd wanted to see Aybara himself, and he was glad he had. Those eyes...they were almost a condemnation by themselves. And Aybara had reacted to the mention of the murdered Whitecloaks, stiffening. Beyond that, there was the talk his people gave of him in alliance with the Seanchan and having with him men who could channel.

Yes, this Aybara was a dangerous man. Galad had been worried about committing his forces to fighting here, but the Light would see him through it. Better to defeat this Aybara now, then to wait and face him at the Last Battle. As quickly as that, he made his decision. The right decision. They would fight.

 

No, the good guys are supposed to not get thousands killed just so they can punish a single Darkfriend. Besides, given that Perrin had the larger army, chances are he would get away anyway if there was a battle between his army and Galad's, and thousands would've died for nothing.

 

A darkfriend and his army. Is it ok to fight an army that is following Sammuel?

 

Anyway, the second part is a bad argument. Do you blame Lan for attacking a larger army in ToM? In most fantasy novels, if you're not willing to fight a against long odds, to fight a larger army when the odds are against you, then you might as well stay in bed.

 

Again, the only thing Galad is guilty of here is coming to the wrong conclusions with incomplete information, and everyone does that. The key is that he was willing to change his mind upon new evidence, which makes him a more reasonable person then most of the characters in the series

[BFG]

I'm going to throw in, in defence of Galad (much to my surprise).

 

In terms of charisma - he clearly has the ability to make people deadly loyal to him personally, otherwise his men would never have overthrown the WC to rescue him. His view of the world as right or wrong, and to put that above personal priorities, while antagonising to most people is going to appeal to a set group of people. He's actually written perfectly as a cult leader.

 

Also I agree that his dealings with Perrin spoke well of him. Unlike every other WC there he was willing to give Perrin a trial, despite the fact that as far as they're concerned his eyes mark him out as shadowspawn - since the AS reacted to Elyas in similar fashion, it's hardly an outlandish conclusion to make especially when you don't know the person involved.

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

Personally I see Galad as Colin Powell, someone that parrots the beliefs of someone in higher power that he believes. But ToM made me change my opinion (slightly, but still it holds to my original thought). He thought the WC idealology was right, but then realized he would need the AS "witches" to help at the LB.

 

Taim on the other hand, I believed was a DF from the start. Yes, I thought he was Demandred for a while(who didnt?) but know I know him for what he is, it makes his POVS and appearances that much more dramatic. He is self-serving in a way but still serving a higher calling.

[avernite]

Galad actually argues the true Children philosophy allows working with the Aes Sedai (it only says that the One Power can corrupt, as all power can), the whole idea just morphed over time (as tends to happen) into 'Aes Sedai are all corrupt'.

 

Galad, I'd say, is the pure 'Lawful Good' character. Were he an angel with perfect information his unerring way of following what is right would be perfect. He has some imperfect information, and so he thought to fight Perrin when he shouldn't, but in essence he seems one of the few people Rand could have relied on. Old Galad would hesitate to sacrifice his wife to save the world, would hesitate to sacrifice his siblings to save the world, but he WOULD do it. And sacrificing himself he would not doubt one second.

[Danjaman]

Agree absolutely with the OP. I think the big thing is that Galad treats his friends and enemies (Perrin, Questioners) with the respect they're due - and that's what makes him such a just character. Taim really is the exact opposite, he treats everyone (Elayne, Rand, his own Asha'man) horribly.