Missed Opportunities

[Wool-headed lummox]

Here we share all the things the the Shadow should have tried to accomplish, had the Forsaken any measure of competence. I'll start:

 

 

Mesaana is nested deep within the White Tower. She has the entire Black Ajah to do her bidding. Due to Elaida's incompetence, the White Tower now holds around 250 Aes Sedai in total, around 70 of them are Black Ajah. Additionally, due to Alviarin's competence, the six Ajahs in the WT (some of them numbering no more than a couple dozen members) are at each other's throats, and afraid to spend time in each other's company or in each other's quarters. The Amyrlin is an unstable fool, the Keeper is Black, many Sitters are Black, one in every four Aes Sedai is Black, the Ajahs are divided, and nobody knows what's going on.

 

What does Mesaana do with all of this? Absolutely nothing. She allows Alviarin to be sacked as Keeper when the rebels start the siege. She actually sends Alviarin away on bloody and ashy Tremalking (?!) for a whole month (??!), during which she gets sacked. When Egwene is captured, Mesaana does absolutely nothing with the leader of the rebel Aes Sedai. She fails to anticipate/notice Egwene's rise to prominence among influential AS as the fake novice who has more skill, competence and resolve than most AS. After Egwene is sworn as the new Amyrlin, the BA in the Tower gets rooted/executed, and Mesaana remains in the reunited and Black-free White Tower with a convoluted plot to assassinate Egwene and bring the White Tower under the Shadow's control. NOW SHE WANTS TO ASSASSINATE EGWENE!! NOW SHE'S PLANNING ON SUBJUGATING THE WHITE TOWER!!!

 

What she should have done? Brought in the Myrdraal. Thirteen of them, to be more exact. The Keeper is already Black, so let's Turn the Amyrlin for good measure. Isolate the Sitters, Turn them too. If Turning isn't always a viable option, use Compulsion. The WT leadership is now entirely under the Shadow's control? Keep Turning/compelling Sisters until every single Aes Sedai in Tar Valon is on the Shadow's side. When Egwene is captured, Turn/compel her too and send her back to the rebels with instructions to keep the siege going permanently.

[Suttree]

Mesaana is nested deep within the White Tower. She has the entire Black Ajah to do her bidding. Due to Elaida's incompetence, the White Tower now holds around 250 Aes Sedai in total, around 70 of them are Black Ajah. Additionally, due to Alviarin's competence, the six Ajahs in the WT (some of them numbering no more than a couple dozen members) are at each other's throats, and afraid to spend time in each other's company or in each other's quarters.

 

Curious as to how you reached this number? We know as of LoC that there were 1,000 AS total(1,200 in NS). To your point it was a huge missed opportunity, especially given the fact that Fain's influence was exasperating all the things you mention above. They were ripe for the plucking and probably at there lowest point in history.

[BFG]

^ I assume it's from before the reunification when in general the AS split to 1/3 with the rebels, 1/3 neutral (or out on missions/advisors...) and a 1/3 with Elaida (around 330 each). But in the Tower Elaida is now lacking 50 that she sent to the BT, and 20 odd that went to capture Rand (those that made it back aren't allowed back in the Tower) and it sounds like she sent some extra people to 'kidnap' rulers of Kingdoms - it's not entirely clear if they are directly from the Tower or are the normal advisors, but it rounds to about 250.

 

Not so sure about the BA. I think the BA is around 20% of the Tower, assuming they were split equally between the groups, gives about 70 BA with each group.

 

Definately a missed opportunity.

[Yosarian]

Yeah; that is a huge one.

 

For that matter, even if you don't want to use Compulsion because other Aes Sedi might detect it, the black ajah could easily have just started abusing the heck out of the oath rod. Alviarin could probably have manipulated/pressured/possibly even tortured Elaida into actually swearing on the oath rod to obey Alviarin. That would be totally undetectable. And from there it would be easy to take control of the rest of the sisters in the Tower.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The problem is that the Shadow's influence would be all too plain to see. It would make the rebellion into a crusade to liberate them from the Shadow. They wouldn't listen to Egwene, Aes Sedai are are fallen institution, but they are not completely blind and stupid. Turning would be noticed, enough sisters know about it, and compulsion is easily detected.

 

The plan wasn't to turn people to the Shadow, it was to keep the good guys at each other's throats.

 

It is the same reason why they didn't just send out masses of Shadowspawn from the start.

 

It is actually a very effective tactic.

 

Look at the Aiel War as they call it, and you will see why the Shadow chose the path of Chaos.

 

As soon as the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall the Wetlanders immediately united with one another, putting aside their differences to fight the common enemy.

 

That was just with the Aiel, if it was the Shadow, they would unite 10000x quicker.

 

The DO doesn't really need that many humans. He feels pretty confident that he can make do with what he has - arrogance perhaps, and a failing definitely. So recruiting isn't number 1 priority. (It is not disdained of course. That's exactly what Taim has been doing. However, they did it at the Black Tower because they could. Most of the Asha'man are unaware and will fight for Taim. It is only Logain's followers who suspect something, and only an Aes Sedai has any idea that it is the Shadow's influence.)

 

Instead, it is much easier to sit back and build your forces for Tarmon Gaidon while your enemy weakens itself by fighting with each other. That's where the Forsaken and Darkfriends come in. They WANT to simply take control and blast the crap out of everyone, but that is against their orders. They are to remain "hidden" and incite chaos amongst the enemy. Make people forget that the Shadow even exists while its servants spread chaos from within.

 

Then, with the enemy broken by itself, and the Shadow's forces totally unscathed, when the DO's prison is weak enough, he strikes.

 

An excellent plan. Of course, the good guys are there to foil that plan. That's what they are in the story for. The DO's plans are not meant to succeed. The main characters are supposed to get around it.

 

As for the Oath Rod tactic, it is possible, but it increases the risk of detection and would be pretty hard to do. the BA hunters didn't exactly have an easy time of it.

[Wool-headed lummox]

The problem is that the Shadow's influence would be all too plain to see

Plain to see for whom? The subjugation isn't something drawn over the course of several months, it would have to be done in a couple of days time. Start with the political leaders and the strongest in the OP, end up controlling/killing everyone else, before anyone that matters is able to notice. How would the rebels know what's going in the WT? Nobody outside of the WT would know.

 

It would make the rebellion into a crusade to liberate them from the Shadow

Obviously, Mesaana's action would have to be counterbalanced by some other Forsaken doing the exact same thing with the rebels. Would have been preferable to start all the way in Salidar, when the rebels are few and disorganized. After that, any subsequent Aes Sedai arriving at Salidar would have been taken and Turned, and by the time rebels arrive at Tar Valon, they are themselves entirely on the Shadow's side.

 

 

An excellent plan.

Aes Sedai fighting one another isn't nearly as excellent as Aes Sedai serving the DO, or at the very least all dead and out of the picture. There's actually nothing excellent about convoluted plots because the more complex and drawn out your plan is, the more likely it is to fall victim to some unforeseen factor. Mesaana and Arangar wasted their time doing little of use in their bases of power, and as a consequence they lost everything. They should have been striving to assume real control over their portions of Aes Sedai. Mesaana wasn't even able to maintain control over Elaida, for Light's sake.

 

The only possible redeeming factor is that we don't really know how exactly the DO is hoping to weaken/destroy his prison. Is he hoping to simply kill off everyone in Randland? Or does negatively affecting the people's mood do the trick? Does balefire play a role in this?

[TNine]

I imagine the easy answer would be that it is harder to turn an Aes Sedai than simply getting a bunch of Myradal and Black Ajah, either by being longer or riskier. And i imagine if you did the Aes Sedai would easily be able to sense it--remember, they can sense nearby shadowspawn, i bet the taint of 13 myradall would stick out like a sore thumb.

 

Also, keep in mind, the Shadow has tried to break the White Tower before and failed. The Trolloc Wars and Hawking's siege both failed to bring down the tower through force. This time, they wanted the Aes Sedai at each other's necks instead of helping Rand or breaking the influence of the Shadow. The rebels and loyalists would have remained at war until TG actually came, and their help would have been very late, meanwhile Rand has had as many troubles with Aes Sedai as he has had help. Taking down the Aes Sedai would pose the serious risk of exposing the Black Ajah and giving the Aes Sedai something to unite against. I imagine that it would have been the backup plan. When they noticed that Egwene was actually unifying the tower, they started to try to bring her around--Alviarin, Laras, Sheriam, Moria--but after the Seachan raid things escalated too quickly. More importantly, Verin and Egwene were able to more or less destroy the Black Ajah full out before Messana or Arangar had time to change their plans, which is something the forsaken definitely couldn't foresee.

 

While trying to turn the entire Tower to the shadow isn't a bad idea, it could have easily resulted in the Tower being united and ready to face Tarmon Gaidon, which is something that the Shadow most definitely didn't want.

 

Off-topic a little: Does anyone else get the impression that Laras is a darkfriend? Releasing Siuan, trying to release Egwene, spying on Nynaeve and Elayne--seems suspicious.

[Morden]

To be honest the only thing that doesnt make sense to me is that Mesaana ignores the Sa'angrael and Angrael stockroom. When EVERY single forsaken we see moans and contemplates what they could do with one. Yes the rooms were warded, but honestly if she could not get past that then she was incompetent. The chances are the wards were on the door, she could have done an Egwene and Travelled inside it, grabbed the stuff she wanted then left and she would literally be the most powerful woman alive with that little white wand...

 

Hell she could have done that and then travelled outside and blown the tower to shreds while almost all the aes sedai were in their beds... or better yet she could have used a mask of mirrors to implicate the rebels in attacking the tower thus causing an almost unrepairable split, because the tower would assume the rebels were black for being able to attack without being threatened. And the rebels would deny it thus in the towers eyes lying. This would cause war not just a token war but true sister killing sister warfare. That and only that would have shattered the Aes Sedai.

 

She was a fool trying to play manipulator when she should have been running the office block, btw part of the reason she didnt help Alviarin was because she ignored Mesaana about not pushing Elaida too hard with all the punishment. Mesaana wanted her orders followed without any additional fuss because she knew it would cause trouble.

[fuzz1717]

To be honest the only thing that doesnt make sense to me is that Mesaana ignores the Sa'angrael and Angrael stockroom. When EVERY single forsaken we see moans and contemplates what they could do with one. Yes the rooms were warded, but honestly if she could not get past that then she was incompetent. The chances are the wards were on the door, she could have done an Egwene and Travelled inside it, grabbed the stuff she wanted then left and she would literally be the most powerful woman alive with that little white wand...

 

+1. Mesaana really missed some big opportunities, both to become Nae'blis and to destroy the WT.

 

I suppose another obvious one should be the fact that Rand should have been killed, probably along with Mat and Perrin, very early in the series. It seems that Ishmael knew that the three of them were very important, so couldn't he have just traveled in, killed everyone in the Two Rivers, and left? Or if he's going for subtle, whenever in Rand, Mat, or Perrin were found by DFs or Shadowspawn, (which was quite frequently), he could have personally dealt with them and ended it all right then and there. He was the most powerful channeler alive (right now he's probably second to Rand), and so killing off three inexperienced boys, an AS who was easily beaten by either Aginor or Balthemael (both of whom are weaker than Ishy), a Warder of no great significance, a juggler, and some other baggage would have been a joke. But no, he decides not to, and tries to let his army of shadowspawn do everything. Even if he wasn't fully free in book 1 (which I can't remember if he was or not), he could have just as well early in book 2. Or he could have just not sucked at Falme and actually channeled, maybe binding Rand's arms or something clever like that rather than fighting with a staff.

 

I can think of a bunch more, but to just make a quick list:

 

Elayne should have been killed straight off when she was captured.

Bel'lal should have channeled to kill Rand.

Lanfear should have compulsed Rand straight away.

Semirhage should have killed Rand straight away, or Traveled straight away with him.

 

Basically, it all boils down to the Forsaken/ DFs are extremely cocky, and their arrogance screws them over when things really matter.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The problem with this is that you assume it is easy to turn people to the Shadow.

 

From all indications it is an extremely hard process that takes time and effort. They don't simply churn out 13x13 people every 10 minutes. Until we know more about the process, it is impossible to tell though. It may well be that easy, and it is a mistake, but all indications point to it being time consuming and difficult.

 

 

These are supposed to be depicting real people who haven't the benefit of reading the books nor dissecting them at their leisure. It is easy to sit and play armchair quarterback as they say, in "reality", it is not so simple.

 

Having said that, I agree that the Forsaken have been incompetent in many situations. Their arrogance and pride are their biggest failings.

 

I agree Mesaana didn't fully capitalize on her position in the Tower, I just think what you suggest is impractical if not impossible. She should have consolidated her power over Elaida, definitely. That was a failure. She should have had some control over the Hall, another failure.

 

However, it is good to remember her successes as well. She managed to fully break the White Tower, something that hasn't been done in 3000 years of history. She managed to capture Rand and turn him against Aes Sedai until his VoG moment. (I believe his escape was planned just as his capture was)

 

I believe that some of the other Forsaken did whinge about the sa'angreal thing, but she said that it was impossible to do, because of the wardings in place. Yeah, she probably could have stolen them, but it would have been extremely dangerous and she would have lost her position in the White Tower.

 

As for Balthamael, I totally agree. I hope to hell that Egwene has been put under some compulsion, because Aran'gar was almost completely useless in the Rebel camp. The only thing she managed to do was make the Aes Sedai suspicious about Asha'man, something that hardly needed helping, and gave Egwene a few headaches, blocking her ability to Dream - which is fair enough, but not if it is the ONLY thing you are going to achieve.

 

On a side note: Be'lal wanted Callandor. He needed Rand to break the wardings (because only the Dragon could take it). Channelling with Rand wielding Callandor would have been extremely stupid, like Ishamael proved. Be'lal actually played it pretty well keeping Rand focused on swords instead of the sledgehammer sa'angreal he could use to crush him with.

 

Also, he was only killed because Moiraine sneaked up on him and balefired him.

[Yosarian]

It seems that Ishmael knew that the three of them were very important, so couldn't he have just traveled in, killed everyone in the Two Rivers, and left? Or if he's going for subtle, whenever in Rand, Mat, or Perrin were found by DFs or Shadowspawn, (which was quite frequently), he could have personally dealt with them and ended it all right then and there.

 

I think at this point Ishmael didn't want to kill the Dragon Reborn, he wanted to turn him to the shadow. That was his goal, and what he did with all the dreams. He only actually tried to kill Rand as a last resort after he had given up on that.

 

There were someone ordering the darkfriends/trollocs to kill the three boys, but I'm guessing it wasn't Ishy. Might have been the blach ajah aes sedi, since they knew about the foretelling of the Dragon's rebirth as well as Moraine did.

 

On a different note, one of the missed opportunities that really bugs me is when Moggy used compulsion on Nyv/Elayne but then just took it off and left them alone. She said something about leaving them alive so she could use them later, but why not put a stronger compulsion on them right then? Why leave two powerful, dangerous channlers wandering free and let them keep trying to kill black aes sedi? All she had to do was use compulsion to say "Stop worrying about the black ajah, and stay in this inn and wait until I have time to come back for you."

[TristanWebb]

I would of rather Sammael killed in the stone than Be'lal though. Be'lal has my favorite backstory of the Forsaken and I wish it had of been used more effectively. I guess Moggy and him were just too close and she has a bigger part to play.

[Byzantine279]

I am fairly certain that Ishy has never wanted Rand dead, not even during the cleansing, which accounts for him surviving everything he has and Ishy not simply balefiring the entirety of the Two Rivers from the instant he knew the DR was somewhere around there (which, I should mention, would have been my plan. Sorry to pull a Rand at Natrim's Burrow, but some strategies are just effective).

 

Though, I fail to see why a male channeler didn't get near the WT and Balefire the bottom half of it. The entire tower would collapse, specifically have collapsed earlier, and you would take out a large number of channelers in one go, without them ever having a chance to detect or stop you. (Presumably warn the Black Ajah first, so they "happen" to be away). After all, at this point they knew no way to detect a male channeler, and simply put one could walk right up to them and they would never know until far, far too late. The only reason channelers have been found is because of the taint. Further, it wouldn't need to be a large amount of balefire, just a series of bursts to cut through the main supports, a simple angreal should easily do it, and wouldn't be needed if the Forsaken could manage to work together for 5 minutes.

[Shaidar]

Wool-headed lummox, I agree completely.

 

In the most general sense, the "lord of chaos" strategy is a dud. Yes, with a lot of tinkering you can get people to be at each other's throats, but these can be consistently reversed all the time (e.g. Egwene united the WT; Galad consolidates the Whitecloaks; Elayne sorts out Andor). What's more as soon as the Trolloc hordes start pouring south pretty much every Lightsider will band together anyway. It's a self-defeating strategy.

 

What would I have done in Ishy's/Moridin's place?

 

(1) Ordered them to gather up the angreal and sa'angreal. The WT might have been hard to break into (but who am I kidding... almost a quarter of them are Black Ajah anyway, it would be a piece of cake). The Tear stocks have no guardians at all. Then have them Travel from city to city leveling the place. If they are all linked with some BA members making up thirteen, and with the help of angreal and sa'angreal, pretty much the entirety of Randland urban civilization can be wiped out in as little as one day. (That is why I said the OP is implausibly overpowered in the other thread).

 

(2) Converted everybody in the WT to the Dark Side. How? Easy. Get BA task forces, abduct sisters one by one to the Blight for 13x13, bring them back to WT. By the time the AS realize they are screwed they will be screwed. As per how Lummox describes.

 

(3) No urban settlements remain. After a week of concerted Forsaken strikes, all the Blight fortresses are reduced. There is no leadership. With a BA-controlled WT not to mention the other Dreadlords, Forsaken with angreal/sa'angreal, tons of Trollocs, it's all over. Simple and brutal but effective. That is more than anything why the excessive politicking of WoT makes me yawn; it would all be redundant were the bad guys plausible i.e. had more than 2 working neurons between the lot of them.

[BFG]

Although I agree with most of the statements above about ineffectiveness, I keep coming back to Verins statement in tGS (to paraphrase)

 

That the war isn't being played out in the way he [Rand] thinks.

 

I'm not sure what the statement means, but I think the wars and stuff are actually secondary. I've recently read a book called the Last Good Man, which is based on a legend that their are 26(? - it was a while ago) Good Men who save the world, because they're alive and are 'good'. If this translates across then the Shadow don't win by destroying Randland, they win by destroying Rand (which until Veins of Gold they were doing).

 

I don't know how this will work out long term, but I think up until VoG everything the Forsaken did was aimed primarily at destroying Rand as a person, with secondary measures set up as back up.

[Yosarian]

Eh, I don't think the Forsaken could just go on the offensive by themselves the way you mean. Yeah, they're powerful, but they're not more powerful then the entire white tower, or all the Aiel wise ones together, ect. It was made pretty clear that a circle of a dozen or so Aes Sedi can take down any forsaken without breaking a sweat, and there's almost a thousand of them alone compared to a dozen forsaken. "Frontal offensive" doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me. The Forsaken are strong, but they're not *that* strong compared to other channelers, and there's not many of them. .And sure, they might be able to get some angreal, but so might their enemies (in fact, they will probably end up with more). Frontal assault against the entire world would be a fast way to to end the war, but probably not in their favor.

 

Besides, I think they're hoping to rule the world, not just level it. Well, except Ishy/Morodin, but he seems to be playing a totally different game anyway.

 

Also, why should they risk themselves like that anyway? They know the Dark One is breaking free, and they're sure that he's going to win this time. Their goal here is honestly less "let's take over the world" and more "everyone try and look busy, the boss is coming".

[Shaidar]

@Yosarian,

 

That is why Traveling is so ridiculously overpowered. Fact is, a few of the Forsaken with a few angreal and some BA sisters to bump them up to the Magical Thirteen ARE more powerful than the entirety of a WT or Wise Ones who do not have Traveling.

 

We're not speaking of frontal assaults BTW. Just Mongol like strike-and-retreat's against population centers that will transform the entirety of Randland into a barbarian, decivilized wasteland within a couple of months.

 

As regards destroying the world, they have immortality anyway. They will be able to rebuild. Slaves can be bred from human survivors. Etc.

[Yosarian]

@Yosarian,

 

That is why Traveling is so ridiculously overpowered. Fact is, a few of the Forsaken with a few angreal and some BA sisters to bump them up to the Magical Thirteen ARE more powerful than the entirety of a WT or Wise Ones who do not have Traveling.

 

Neah.

 

Remember, first time you do traveling somewhere where an Aes Sedi can see you, then the Aes Sedi all have traveling. There are Aes Sedi in every major population center. And while you're wandering the streets blasting with waves of fire, one guy with a crossbow hiding behind a rock and you're dead.

 

The twelve Forsaken are probably equal in power to, say, fifty to a hundred Aes Sedi, at most. Remember, Mogy=Nyv in strength. Nyv is the strongest Aes Sedi, but she's only maybe twice as strong as average. The stronger Forsaken might equal, say, 4 aes sedi. There are a THOUSAND Aes Sedi.

 

Also; all the Forsaken working in a circle? Never going to happen. In order to work in a circle like that, you have to trust enough to put total control of yourself and your Power into the hands of someone else; once you give someone control of a circle, they can do whatever they want with your power and you can't stop them. Whichever Forsaken was given control of that circle would end up mind-raping and controlling the rest of them forever, and they all know it.

 

We're not speaking of frontal assaults BTW. Just Mongol like strike-and-retreat's against population centers that will transform the entirety of Randland into a barbarian, decivilized wasteland within a couple of months.

 

Unlikely to work. You might be able to take out one or two, but after that, there will be a thosand Aes Sedi, five hundred wise ones, several dozen sea folk, and who knows who else just waiting for you when you hit the next city, and they will obliterate you. They will probably have more

 

Plus, they don't NEED to do something that risky. Before Rand started knocking off Forsaken, the Forsaken ruled Tear, Illian, and Andor, a darkfriend was in charge of the Senchean forerunners, and they had influence in the White Tower, over the Whitecloaks, and even in the Borderlands. They were taking over the world just fine, without wrecking it in the process. Why would they feel the need to do something so risky and potentially suicidal as a frontal assault when it's so much easier to just take over?

 

And, of course, after Rand started picking them off, it was too late.

[BFG]

@Yosarion - just two things i disagree with you on.

 

For AS to get travelling from Forsaken they'd have to be there when they made the weave, reading residues is a Talant that not many seem to have, so it wouldn't be that easy for the AS to get the knowledge from them, since the Forsaken just need to check their's no female Channeler around them when they make the weave.

 

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt - she's probably stronger now. Strengthwise I think she's now stronger than Moggy.

 

EDIT to add - the strength of the Forsaken kind of does and doesn't matter - 13 AS can shield anyone, no matter how weak they are, or how strong the other person is - BUT most cities, south of Borderlands only seem to have one AS their permanently, plus others that are passing through - unlikely to reach 13 at any given moment. Also 1 on 1 the Forsaken could overpower most AS without much effort. Without travelling the AS won't be able to react quickly enough to ensure all AS go around in groups of 13, and even that wouldn't be guaranteed if one of your 13 was BA and refused to link.

 

EDIT EDIT - Voras wand was used in the beginning of tDR not tGH

[Yosarian]

@Yosarion - just two things i disagree with you on.

 

For AS to get travelling from Forsaken they'd have to be there when they made the weave, reading residues is a Talant that not many seem to have, so it wouldn't be that easy for the AS to get the knowledge from them, since the Forsaken just need to check their's no female Channeler around them when they make the weave.

 

Well, we don't know that none of the Aes Sedi have that Talent, just that they consider it a very rare Talent. But yes, I was talking about making the weave. If they're doing hit and run raids, fleeing as soon as they start to get overtired (a few hours of tossing around fireballs and even Rand gets exhausted and becomes helpless, remember, and none of the Forsaken are going to let themselves to that point in hostile territory or with other Forsaken around) then they're going to have a hard time making sure there aren't any Aes Sedi close enough to see them when they make the weave.

 

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt - she's probably stronger now. Strengthwise I think she's now stronger than Moggy.

 

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

 

EDIT to add - the strength of the Forsaken kind of does and doesn't matter - 13 AS can shield anyone, no matter how weak they are, or how strong the other person is - BUT most cities, south of Borderlands only seem to have one AS their permanently, plus others that are passing through - unlikely to reach 13 at any given moment. Also 1 on 1 the Forsaken could overpower most AS without much effort. Without travelling the AS won't be able to react quickly enough to ensure all AS go around in groups of 13, and even that wouldn't be guaranteed if one of your 13 was BA and refused to link.

 

None of the Aes Sedi (other then the main characters with their total lack of survival instinct, lol) are likely enough to try taking on a group of 13 forsaken alone. (Although if it came to that, one Aes Sedi who know balefire, hitting them from behind when they're focused on blasting lightining and fire into a city could do pretty impressive damage). However I'm thinking that pretty quickly the Aes Sedi could deploy hundreds of Aes Sedi in every major city. This would also unite the entire world against the Shadow behind the Aes Sedi and the Dragon Reborn pretty darn quick.

 

Anyway, yes, channelers usually beat non-channalers (with Rodel Ituralde being the major exception in the books), but I think we've also seen that channelers + army > channelers without army. Every time we've seen mixed battles (Rand + ashamen + army vs. Senchean + army, Perrin + aes sedi + wise ones vs. shaido), you see a certain number of channelers fall to mundane means on the battlefield. The One Power does not make your invincible, and if the good guys lose 1000 soldiers but kill 1 Forsaken, I think that's a win for the good guys.

[BFG]

@Yosarion - just two things i disagree with you on.

 

For AS to get travelling from Forsaken they'd have to be there when they made the weave, reading residues is a Talant that not many seem to have, so it wouldn't be that easy for the AS to get the knowledge from them, since the Forsaken just need to check their's no female Channeler around them when they make the weave.

 

Well, we don't know that none of the Aes Sedi have that Talent, just that they consider it a very rare Talent. But yes, I was talking about making the weave. If they're doing hit and run raids, fleeing as soon as they start to get overtired (a few hours of tossing around fireballs and even Rand gets exhausted and becomes helpless, remember, and none of the Forsaken are going to let themselves to that point in hostile territory or with other Forsaken around) then they're going to have a hard time making sure there aren't any Aes Sedi close enough to see them when they make the weave.

 

Still not convinced - during any battle with the OP any AS nearby are going to do what they can to help (unless they can't - see Joline, Ebou Dar). As soon as they channel they'd be targeted by said Forsaken and likely wiped out. This is generally going to leave the Forsaken able to leave with ease - not to mention they know how to hide/invert weaves. But yes, the AS do have some that can read residues - I'm pretty sure that after the cleansing the AS that Eg sends to check it out can all read residues and Avi knows about it from the WO, so it's not a really rare talent in the way that Dreaming is.

 

 

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt - she's probably stronger now. Strengthwise I think she's now stronger than Moggy.

 

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

 

EDIT to add - the strength of the Forsaken kind of does and doesn't matter - 13 AS can shield anyone, no matter how weak they are, or how strong the other person is - BUT most cities, south of Borderlands only seem to have one AS their permanently, plus others that are passing through - unlikely to reach 13 at any given moment. Also 1 on 1 the Forsaken could overpower most AS without much effort. Without travelling the AS won't be able to react quickly enough to ensure all AS go around in groups of 13, and even that wouldn't be guaranteed if one of your 13 was BA and refused to link.

 

None of the Aes Sedi (other then the main characters with their total lack of survival instinct, lol) are likely enough to try taking on a group of 13 forsaken alone. (Although if it came to that, one Aes Sedi who know balefire, hitting them from behind when they're focused on blasting lightining and fire into a city could do pretty impressive damage). However I'm thinking that pretty quickly the Aes Sedi could deploy hundreds of Aes Sedi in every major city. This would also unite the entire world against the Shadow behind the Aes Sedi and the Dragon Reborn pretty darn quick.

 

Anyway, yes, channelers usually beat non-channalers (with Rodel Ituralde being the major exception in the books), but I think we've also seen that channelers + army > channelers without army. Every time we've seen mixed battles (Rand + ashamen + army vs. Senchean + army, Perrin + aes sedi + wise ones vs. shaido), you see a certain number of channelers fall to mundane means on the battlefield. The One Power does not make your invincible, and if the good guys lose 1000 soldiers but kill 1 Forsaken, I think that's a win for the good guys.

 

Without travelling the AS can't mobilise that quickly - it takes months to travel across Randland, so if the FS started closest to Wt and worked away they'd stay ahead of any AS trying to catch up.

 

With travelling you're right, and would be even more effective if they figured out what the 'rotting/decay' in TAR means - that would eventually give them the base of each Forsaken so they could travel there and...

 

Overall I agree with you, the Forsaken have been effective in 'breaking' Randland without needing to resort to destroying their future Kingdoms - for them it would be stupid to destroy your future adoring subjects. Also Verins thoughts on what the last Battle actually is have to be important

 

Ituraldes initial success semed to come down to effectively acting out a guerilla warfare campaign - sneak and surprise attacks, which as you said are the ones where channelers tend to die on the battlefield.

[Mr Ares]

That is why Traveling is so ridiculously overpowered. Fact is, a few of the Forsaken with a few angreal and some BA sisters to bump them up to the Magical Thirteen ARE more powerful than the entirety of a WT or Wise Ones who do not have Traveling.

So being immensely strong in the OP, being able to link, and being possessed of several powerful angreal makes Traveling overpowered? Something of a logical disconnect there.

 

We're not speaking of frontal assaults BTW. Just Mongol like strike-and-retreat's against population centers that will transform the entirety of Randland into a barbarian, decivilized wasteland within a couple of months.

 

As regards destroying the world, they have immortality anyway. They will be able to rebuild. Slaves can be bred from human survivors. Etc.

Just because you plan to have eternity, doesn't mean you want to spend the first few centuries rebuilding from the Stone Age, when the current Age is already less civilised and less advanced than the Age you came from. Also, the Chosen are a rare and precious resource - to use them so openly risks them, for no real benefit. They have no reason to want to do what you suggest - it works far better for them to carve out their own power bases. Most of them aren't generals, they have no reason to desire open warfare. Let the Lord of Chaos rule was an order from on high, not their own master plan. Even if what you come up with would be successful from a certain perspective, it isn't what the Chosen want and it isn't what Shai'tan wants.

 

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt - she's probably stronger now.

There's nothing to support that.

[BFG]

Also Nyn is almost half as strong as 10 of above average AS (group includes Siuan, Leane and Sheriam - who all stand pretty high) using wand of destiny (Vora's) as in the Great Hunt (added: should be beginning of DR not GH) - she's probably stronger now.

There's nothing to support that.

 

Nothing to support her original strength or that she's stronger now? the first is backed up by her own statement and the fact that neither Eg or Elayne contradict her. Not conclusive proof, but once they know how they appear to be able to judge each others strength pretty accurately I can dig out the quote when I get back home.

 

If the latter - their's nothing directly from the text, which is why I said probably. But it's an established fact that female channelers get stronger with time as they channel until they reach their full potential. Given that Nyn still hasn't been channeling for very long - sporadically before the WT, less than 2 years since and that she's never been forced it seems reasonable that she's still growing stronger (bear in mind most people spend >5 years as a novice and some are still reaching their full potential after they've become AS).

 

In the beginning of tDR she thinks she's as strong as 10 stronger than average channelers wielding Voras wand - one of the most powerful sa'angreals available to female channelers. By the end of tSR she's capable of overpowering Moggy (with a little creative strategy). I think their's a pretty large gap between the female Forsaken and most AS.

 

(Or I've just noticed an error and corrected GH to DR?)

 

 

 

EDIT changed tGH to tDR in original post

[Tensai0211]

I believe the scene BFG is talking about is Mat's healing from the Shadar Logoth dagger.

 

TDR p211

Just as softly, Nynaeve said, "If we stop them-if we could stop them- he'll die. I do not think i could handle half that much of the Power."

[BFG]

It is, thanks Tensai