Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[The Fisher King]

That was one scene in the entire book. I said ''almost'' - not all. Maybe you missed that in my post. Also, the part in question was mostly written by Jordan. What Brandon had to decide was to let it stand as one long scene or divide it in two.

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

That was one scene in the entire book. I said ''almost'' - not all. Maybe you missed that in my post. Also, the part in question was mostly written by Jordan. What Brandon had to decide was to let it stand as one long scene or divide it in two.

 

Fish/

I've always read those scenes were Brandon Fish. There was a dinner in the outline and he changed it into two scenes. Do you have something that says different? Would be interested to check it...

[lilltempest]

(a) We actually do know Cadsuane's reasoning. In her own PoV, she acknowledged Sorelia's suggestion that letting Rand believe he didn't interest her was the only way to get him to use her (by the way, that's the exact same thing Moiraine did in TGH, so it's a surprise Rand never caught on to that fact; at least it is to me). (b) It doesn't matter how late it is in the game. A missing DR is better than a dying one, where stress is concerned. If he dies, that's it; game over (for all that Cadsuane knows, at least). I do agree that her feelings of responsibility for what's happened are very relevant, but whatever makes you think she didn't feel the same about not protecting him from Fain, when she took it upon herself to protect their band (and, in fact, instructed Rand not to use the Power)? Now, naturally, everyone has their breaking point, and not reaching it once is no guaranty against breaking on a different occasion. But people don't change who they are; even at your worst, you only act on your less positive qualities. For Cadsuane, that's her bossiness, perhaps her difficulty to trust people (such as, she might shot Nynaeve down just because, without considering the merits of her ideas). Becoming someone who would use the Power to keep from hearing the truth, and on a defenceless man, well, that's a whole other thing. Quite in line with Cads's reaction to letting Elza acquire the DB (oh, right, the FS; of course there's nothing you could've done to stop them. Wait, what's that? You knew all along that you're facing them? You had one in your custody for a month? Facing them is the only way to achieve what you've set out to do, all this time ago? Never mind that, keep merrily on), which again showed Brandon's bias.

 

Okay, I have a question for all of you who felt that Cadsuane wrapping Tam in bonds of Air was out of character for her (I still think it was perfectly in character and merges perfectly with the way she has behaved in the past, but that's not the point her). What if, instead of wrapping him in bonds of Air, she had "switched" him with a flow of Air the way she did to Rand when he "misbehaved"? Or, alternatively, if she had gotten up and slapped Tam across the face for showing disrespect? Would that have "fit" for all of you? Or are you simply against Cadsuane doing anything to give Tam cause to call her out for her actions?

 

For example (and Luckers, I know you despise any scene I suggest, and object to any sort of scene written by me while letting others do the same, but I'm trying to get an answer here...if it bothers you so much, delete the scene I wrote, but the question remains):

 

*******

 

"Interesting," Cadsuane said, her voice cold. "And did you speak the words I prepared for you?"

 

"I began to," Tam said, "but I realized that it wasn't working. He wouldn't open up to me, and well he shouldn't. A man using an Aes Sedai script with his own son! I don't know what you did to him, woman, but I recognize hatred when I see it. You have a lot to explain to—"

 

Tam cut off abruptly, raising an eyebrow and snorting. "You recall, perhaps, what I said about civility, boy?" Cadsuane asked.

 

"Cadsuane!" Nynaeve said, clearly trying not to laugh. "He's not a chi—"

 

"It's all right, Wisdom," Tam said. He looked at Cadsuane. Min was not certain what she had done, but she had her suspicions. She had seen Cadsuane treat others as though they were children, including Rand. He had always grown frustrated, and others she did it to were prone to bellowing.

 

"Respect is earned, woman, not demanded. And you have not earned mine with your machinations. You can use your...power...to switch me like you would a misbehaving child, but it will not change reality." Tam stared her in the eyes. "I've known men who, when challenged, always turn to their fists for answers. I've never liked Aes Sedai; I was happy to be rid of them when I returned to my farm. A bully is a bully, whether she uses the strength of her arm or other means."

 

*******************

 

And don't come back and tell me she would never "switch" someone with the One Power, not when she already did it to Rand. Would this have made the scene more acceptable to the Cadsuane fans? Or is it simply that you refuse to accept any scene where she loses control or gets called out for her attitude and behavior?

[Suttree]

Errmmm she switched Rand with the power after a count of three and multiple warnings. It was a pre-mediated action that fit with her character study and subsequent plan for him. She almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate and there is really no comparison between the two scenes.

 

Also in your scenario you say she doesnt deserve Tams respect. There is possibly only one or two people in the entire story who have done more for Rand than her. She has saved his life a few times over and swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT.

 

The problem people have with this scene is Cads would never need to use the power against a defenseless man who did nothing but tell her the truth. She would she would be disgusted at any AS who would need to in that situation. Cads was a caricature version of herself and it was far too bluntly written. It could have been such a powerful scene with her at wits end and I think most rue the opportunity lost.

[lilltempest]

Errmmm she switched Rand with the power after a count of three and multiple warnings. It was a pre-mediated action that fit with her character study and subsequent plan for him. She almost unfailingly treats people as their actions dictate and there is really no comparison between the two scenes.

 

Also in your scenario you say she doesnt deserve Tams respect. There is possibly only one or two people in the entire story who have done more for Rand than her. She has saved his life a few times over and swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT.

And what has she done to earn Tam's respect? She tried to program him on how to address his son, did not inform him as to the extent of Rand's mental instability, did not mention that Rand loathes her at this point...where, in all of that, does Cadsuane earn Tam's respect? Because she's an Aes Sedai? Sorry, that doesn't work.

 

But thank you, you answered my question...in other words, any scene that doesn't show Cadsuane as perfect and unflappable is unacceptable to you. Got it.

[skalors3]

@Suttree How do you explain her complete disregard for the WF in chapter 13? If she was so methodical she would have never ignored them the way she did. In fact, she even stated that of she gave them her full attention they'd make her angry. They were a nuisance to her that she wanted to swat. She didn't give them a seconds thought.

 

Also, how is switching Rand productive for her except for maybe providing him civility (which it never did) ? She mishandled him nearly the entire series. If she were so thoughtful she would have modified her tactics.

 

She is a thoughtful woman who makes plans, but she isn't the person you paint her out to be. She has a goal to accomplish. She can endure what she must. However, she won't endure what she doesn't have too.

 

As far as the power, even RJ noted that she would go beyond the physical. I wouldn't label Tam as defenseless either. She certainly wouldn't slap him and I doubt it would find its mark.

[Suttree]

How would what I said not be worthy of a fathers respect, is that some kind of joke? Further what does being AS have to do with it? What a strange thing to say.

 

No idea why you keep bringing up the wfs as it supports our side of the debate. Showing restraint in the face of far greater provocation than what Tam does. Also if you thinks Cads hasn't studied Rand and modified her tactics throughout the series you quite simply don't know the first thing about her character. That has become strikingly clear the longer we have continued. Study up a bit and refresh yourself with the reality of what has gone on.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/03/winters-heart-read-through-post-7-about.html?m=1

 

Logical fallacies and some odd need to consistently mis-categorize the opinions of people you debate with are just about all I have seen from you at this point. In addition you contradict yourself as you criss cross back and forth withthis topic. Please just stop responding to me if you feel the need to continue with absurd statements like "any scene that doesn't show her as perfect" is unacceptable to me. I don't care if you get the odd thing wrong or don't understand the nuances of what has gone on with her character, but at least be honest in how you represent other people's views.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is evident that neither side will budge on the topic, so I would suggest that there is no point in continuing the discussion unless something new and relevant is provided. This isn't an official demand or anything, but after like 10 pages of the same thing, nothing is likely to change. 

 

I said I wouldn't engage in debate until aMoL is out, but the topic seems to be going round in circles, so I wanted to add my own thoughts - it may or may not give a fresh perspective to help move the debate along, I don't know, but I'm going to have a go. 

 

I didn't have a big problem with the scene in question. To me, it had the right motivations and ideas behind it, but it just wasn't executed very well. For example, when I first read the sequence I was like "What? Where the hell'd that come from? That was random." 

 

It was only afterwards when I had time to think about it as a whole that I saw it where the scene was going. Then I was like "Oh, yeah, fair enough, I can understand that." 

The problem being that you have to assume a lot. Of course, the assumptions may be logical, but it is blunt and less desirable to read. I don't particularly care who wrote the scene, that has nothing to do with it for me. That was my initial reaction to the scene when we knew nothing of who wrote what. 

 

In RJ's WoT, this was something he was expert at, so the difference is enlarged. So in that respect, it's not that Brandon was particularly BAD at it as such, it is just that RJ was too GOOD at this kind of thing. 

 

You rarely had to assume circumstances and the persons personality before. Their motivation and thought process is often developed and built up to the culminating scene. Example being Perrin acting "out of character" when torturing the Shaido. It was a natural development. He spent the last 2 books (which is a bit too long, but that's a different topic) growing increasingly frustrated and desperate to find Faile. You could literally feel his fury at that point. 

 

Similarly, Moghedien's out of character moment was natural. She has been defeated by Nynaeve once already, captured and collared by her, turned over to Egwene who was harsh as anything. Then, when she was freed, the DO punishes her for her failures and gives Moridin her mindtrap, one of the most horrific punishments available. So when she sees Nynaeve, the cause of all her problems, she gets pretty pissed. I felt that, you could feel Moghedien breaking and bubbling with hatred, feel it build up through 2-3 books. 

 

With the Cadsuane scene, I didn't feel any build-up. There WAS build-up, but it was done differently. The events showed us that this reaction was plausible. She first gets exiled and threatened with death. She fails a whole lot, and finally is confronted with her last ditch effort having failed, and possibly contemplating the destruction of the world. HOWEVER, I didn't FEEL that. Cadsaune continued being Cadsuane, there is hardly any hints of her growing distress throughout the book. She is calm all the way through until BAM! She goes crazy. 

 

Again, it is not implausible, the events are there. However, it means you have to do a lot of guesswork. You have to assume that Cadsuane is growing frustrated, you have to assume that she is reaching her limit. You have to assume that she had gone through all this and finally snapped. 

 

Which of course is logical if you look back at the events with a logical eye. But that's the part I personally didn't like. This is nothing to do with poor writing - just my preference on reading. You look back on it dispassionately and see the logic of it. Personally, I prefer it when the emotions dominate the plot, not the events. Here, we see the events dictate the character, not the characters emotions dictate the plot. 

 

I thought it was a missed opportunity. I wanted to FEEL Cadsuane - the legend herself - breaking. I wanted to feel her mounting frustration, her inner turmoil, the despair that she must have felt when Tam confronted her. Of course, it would have been best done from her PoV - (but we do get her PoV's building up to the scene that don't show the emotion, it is rather a means to further the plot, not to look into her emotions) However, it could have been shown from the PoV's we do have. Even if we only see 70% of it through Min's PoV - it would be much more preferable than what happened. It had less than 10% of the emotional impact. 

 

And it's not like Brandon can't do it either. He did it well with Rand in tGS, which is why the whole thing stands out more. He can do it wonderfully - I don't know why he chose not to do so for such a momentous event - the final failure of Cadsuane the Legend - but it was a huge missed opportunity which left me feeling let down. Like if Rand seals the bore in two sentences. "He wove Saidin and Saidar together, using himself to shield the OP from the Dark One. It was a close call, but finally he did it, and the Dark One's Prison was sealed once again."  Logical, and it makes perfect sense, but not very entertaining or tense. 

 

To finish off on a lighter note, some of the things I thought Brandon did exceptionally with. 

-Rand in tGS was brilliant, he is good at writing brooding characters. (I have not yet decided on Rand ToM, will have to see his thoughts in aMoL to judge) 

 

- Perrin ToM. His best writing in the series. Enjoyed every scene errors/necessity aside, he nailed Perrin's character. 

 

- While I think RJ's battle scenes etc.. are better - he is a veteran himself and has a better understanding of the whole thing - I thin"k Brandon's "Epic and dramatic" style of writing suits the mood. Much more than it would have if it was aCoS or something. 

 

- He did Nynaeve fairly well in my opinion. The Testing - which RJ would never have done - is one of my favourites in the series for Nynaeve. (Egwene's lack of character excluded) 

 

- The Pillars Vision was truly worthy of the Wheel of Time. Perhaps the best chapter Brandon has written - perhaps in any of his books. 

 

- I thought he wrote Elayne pretty well. Not as good as Perrin or tGS Rand, but I thought it was good enough. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is evident that neither side will budge on the topic, so I would suggest that there is no point in continuing the discussion unless something new and relevant is provided. This isn't an official demand or anything, but after like 10 pages of the same thing, nothing is likely to change. 

 

I said I wouldn't engage in debate until aMoL is out, but the topic seems to be going round in circles, so I wanted to add my own thoughts - it may or may not give a fresh perspective to help move the debate along, I don't know, but I'm going to have a go. 

 

I didn't have a big problem with the scene in question. To me, it had the right motivations and ideas behind it, but it just wasn't executed very well. For example, when I first read the sequence I was like "What? Where the hell'd that come from? That was random." 

 

It was only afterwards when I had time to think about it as a whole that I saw it where the scene was going. Then I was like "Oh, yeah, fair enough, I can understand that." 

The problem being that you have to assume a lot. Of course, the assumptions may be logical, but it is blunt and less desirable to read. I don't particularly care who wrote the scene, that has nothing to do with it for me. That was my initial reaction to the scene when we knew nothing of who wrote what. 

 

In RJ's WoT, this was something he was expert at, so the difference is enlarged. So in that respect, it's not that Brandon was particularly BAD at it as such, it is just that RJ was too GOOD at this kind of thing. 

 

You rarely had to assume circumstances and the persons personality before. Their motivation and thought process is often developed and built up to the culminating scene. Example being Perrin acting "out of character" when torturing the Shaido. It was a natural development. He spent the last 2 books (which is a bit too long, but that's a different topic) growing increasingly frustrated and desperate to find Faile. You could literally feel his fury at that point. 

 

Similarly, Moghedien's out of character moment was natural. She has been defeated by Nynaeve once already, captured and collared by her, turned over to Egwene who was harsh as anything. Then, when she was freed, the DO punishes her for her failures and gives Moridin her mindtrap, one of the most horrific punishments available. So when she sees Nynaeve, the cause of all her problems, she gets pretty pissed. I felt that, you could feel Moghedien breaking and bubbling with hatred, feel it build up through 2-3 books. 

 

With the Cadsuane scene, I didn't feel any build-up. There WAS build-up, but it was done differently. The events showed us that this reaction was plausible. She first gets exiled and threatened with death. She fails a whole lot, and finally is confronted with her last ditch effort having failed, and possibly contemplating the destruction of the world. HOWEVER, I didn't FEEL that. Cadsaune continued being Cadsuane, there is hardly any hints of her growing distress throughout the book. She is calm all the way through until BAM! She goes crazy. 

 

Again, it is not implausible, the events are there. However, it means you have to do a lot of guesswork. You have to assume that Cadsuane is growing frustrated, you have to assume that she is reaching her limit. You have to assume that she had gone through all this and finally snapped. 

 

Which of course is logical if you look back at the events with a logical eye. But that's the part I personally didn't like. This is nothing to do with poor writing - just my preference on reading. You look back on it dispassionately and see the logic of it. Personally, I prefer it when the emotions dominate the plot, not the events. Here, we see the events dictate the character, not the characters emotions dictate the plot. 

 

I thought it was a missed opportunity. I wanted to FEEL Cadsuane - the legend herself - breaking. I wanted to feel her mounting frustration, her inner turmoil, the despair that she must have felt when Tam confronted her. Of course, it would have been best done from her PoV - (but we do get her PoV's building up to the scene that don't show the emotion, it is rather a means to further the plot, not to look into her emotions) However, it could have been shown from the PoV's we do have. Even if we only see 70% of it through Min's PoV - it would be much more preferable than what happened. It had less than 10% of the emotional impact. 

 

And it's not like Brandon can't do it either. He did it well with Rand in tGS, which is why the whole thing stands out more. He can do it wonderfully - I don't know why he chose not to do so for such a momentous event - the final failure of Cadsuane the Legend - but it was a huge missed opportunity which left me feeling let down. Like if Rand seals the bore in two sentences. "He wove Saidin and Saidar together, using himself to shield the OP from the Dark One. It was a close call, but finally he did it, and the Dark One's Prison was sealed once again."  Logical, and it makes perfect sense, but not very entertaining or tense. 

 

To finish off on a lighter note, some of the things I thought Brandon did exceptionally with. 

-Rand in tGS was brilliant, he is good at writing brooding characters. (I have not yet decided on Rand ToM, will have to see his thoughts in aMoL to judge) 

 

- Perrin ToM. His best writing in the series. Enjoyed every scene errors/necessity aside, he nailed Perrin's character. 

 

- While I think RJ's battle scenes etc.. are better - he is a veteran himself and has a better understanding of the whole thing - I thin"k Brandon's "Epic and dramatic" style of writing suits the mood. Much more than it would have if it was aCoS or something. 

 

- He did Nynaeve fairly well in my opinion. The Testing - which RJ would never have done - is one of my favourites in the series for Nynaeve. (Egwene's lack of character excluded) 

 

- The Pillars Vision was truly worthy of the Wheel of Time. Perhaps the best chapter Brandon has written - perhaps in any of his books. 

 

- I thought he wrote Elayne pretty well. Not as good as Perrin or tGS Rand, but I thought it was good enough. 

[fionwe1987]

That was one scene in the entire book. I said ''almost'' - not all. Maybe you missed that in my post. Also, the part in question was mostly written by Jordan. What Brandon had to decide was to let it stand as one long scene or divide it in two.

 

 

Fish

 

No no. Its not just the extra dinner scene Brandon wrote, but all the meetings in between, including the chapter where she met many of those she had met before, and induced pretty much similar reactions. If you'll go back an read KoD, the Egwene chapter ends with Doesine coming to personally Heal Egwene, and not call her down for naming herself Amyrlin. The scene ends with the delicious possibility that Doesine or one of the other Black Ajah hunters, was soon going to have a more detailed conversation with Egwene. Most likely, it would have happened in the dungeon, or perhaps a little before Egwene's meeting with Elaida. 

 

Brandon wrote a ton of Egwene in tGS, and while I think he got her fairly well, he did somewhat reduce the impact of her chapters in the beginning.

 

@Illtempest: I doubt I'll change your mind on this, but the fact that Cadsuane did anything to Rand is not proof she would do it to someone else. To the contrary, in fact. Cadsuane cared a lot more about Rand, and cared very deeply that he grow into the right kind of leader. She suffered pride and arrogance from him very very little, precisely because he wasn't a distraught father, but the man on whom the fate of the world depended.

 

Tam is a different case. I have no doubts on Tam's ability to provoke a response from her,  but not so hastily, and I think definitely not with the Power. Even Harine, who we know actually did infuriate her a lot, did not get any physical punishment from Cadsuane herself. In fact, the two confirmed cases of Cadsuane hitting or using the OP physically against someone? Rand al'Thor and Myriam Copan. Which is not to say she won't do the same to someone else who's equally silly. She herself has admitted to spanking Kings and Queens. But in all those cases, it was about deflating egos and pricking the pride of someone who should know better.

 

With Tam, it wasn't that. He was genuinely in shock that his son had killed him. Could Cadsuane forget herself enough to lash out at him at this time of very understandable pain and confusion for him? Perhaps. Given the situation she was in, maybe it was even likely. But not for that little provokation, and not in the way it was shown.

[yoniy0]

Darkness within, Barid, do I think you're wrong about Elayne. Yes, Elayne could be reckless and petulant, but these things weren't at her core. If I had to describe her in one word, it would be 'fearless'. In ToM, all that remains of that is her recklessness and snobbishness.

[Barid Bel Medar]

ha, I take it you are not partial to the Elayne ToM segments. 

 

I'm probably not in the best position to judge Elayne ToM. I haven't read those sections for a while, all I remember is I wasn't fond of a) the Forsaken impersonation and b) the Cairhien incident. 

 

I may be infected with David Selig's fervour, having recently engaged in debate on Elayne with him, so the Forsaken thing isn't a problem to me. The Cairhien incident still annoys me, but I think RJ had that planned, so it is not a Brandon complaint so much as a plot complaint. 

 

For the rest of it, I remember that I enjoyed it enough. I remember that the talk with Gawyn was particularly good. 

[David Selig]

Darkness within, Barid, do I think you're wrong about Elayne. Yes, Elayne could be reckless and petulant, but these things weren't at her core. If I had to describe her in one word, it would be 'fearless'. In ToM, all that remains of that is her recklessness and snobbishness.

But she wasn't reckless at all in ToM. And no, visiting a shielded prisoner in your own dungeons with guards right outside is not recklessness.

[yoniy0]

You know what, David? I just realized that this entire arc, from the day Elayne captured the BA to the day she questioned them, was conducted while Egwene was being held captive. This certainly makes it more believable that Elayne handled it herself, I'll grant you that.

 

Still, unlike the house at Full Moon street, there was no rush here. Elayne simply jumped into it blindingly, and for the silliest reason (fear of handling Birgitte). There were better alternatives to be found, not the least of which is reaching out to the WO.

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Barid Bel Medar" data-cid="2708758" data-time="1355816802"><p>

It is evident that neither side will budge on the topic, so I would suggest that there is no point in continuing the discussion unless something new and relevant is provided. This isn't an official demand or anything, but after like 10 pages of the same thing, nothing is likely to change. <br />

<br />

I said I wouldn't engage in debate until aMoL is out, but the topic seems to be going round in circles, so I wanted to add my own thoughts - it may or may not give a fresh perspective to help move the debate along, I don't know, but I'm going to have a go. <br />

<br />

I didn't have a big problem with the scene in question. To me, it had the right motivations and ideas behind it, but it just wasn't executed very well. For example, when I first read the sequence I was like "What? Where the hell'd that come from? That was random." <br />

<br />

It was only afterwards when I had time to think about it as a whole that I saw it where the scene was going. Then I was like "Oh, yeah, fair enough, I can understand that." <br />

<br />

The problem being that you have to assume a lot. Of course, the assumptions may be logical, but it is blunt and less desirable to read. I don't particularly care who wrote the scene, that has nothing to do with it for me. That was my initial reaction to the scene when we knew nothing of who wrote what. <br />

<br />

In RJ's WoT, this was something he was expert at, so the difference is enlarged. So in that respect, it's not that Brandon was particularly BAD at it as such, it is just that RJ was too GOOD at this kind of thing. <br />

<br />

You rarely had to assume circumstances and the persons personality before. Their motivation and thought process is often developed and built up to the culminating scene. Example being Perrin acting "out of character" when torturing the Shaido. It was a natural development. He spent the last 2 books (which is a bit too long, but that's a different topic) growing increasingly frustrated and desperate to find Faile. You could literally feel his fury at that point. <br />

<br />

Similarly, Moghedien's out of character moment was natural. She has been defeated by Nynaeve once already, captured and collared by her, turned over to Egwene who was harsh as anything. Then, when she was freed, the DO punishes her for her failures and gives Moridin her mindtrap, one of the most horrific punishments available. So when she sees Nynaeve, the cause of all her problems, she gets pretty pissed. I felt that, you could feel Moghedien breaking and bubbling with hatred, feel it build up through 2-3 books. <br />

<br />

With the Cadsuane scene, I didn't feel any build-up. There WAS build-up, but it was done differently. The events showed us that this reaction was plausible. She first gets exiled and threatened with death. She fails a whole lot, and finally is confronted with her last ditch effort having failed, and possibly contemplating the destruction of the world. HOWEVER, I didn't FEEL that. Cadsaune continued being Cadsuane, there is hardly any hints of her growing distress throughout the book. She is calm all the way through until BAM! She goes crazy. <br />

<br />

Again, it is not implausible, the events are there. However, it means you have to do a lot of guesswork. You have to assume that Cadsuane is growing frustrated, you have to assume that she is reaching her limit. You have to assume that she had gone through all this and finally snapped. <br />

<br />

Which of course is logical if you look back at the events with a logical eye. But that's the part I personally didn't like. This is nothing to do with poor writing - just my preference on reading. You look back on it dispassionately and see the logic of it. Personally, I prefer it when the emotions dominate the plot, not the events. Here, we see the events dictate the character, not the characters emotions dictate the plot. <br />

<br />

I thought it was a missed opportunity. I wanted to FEEL Cadsuane - the legend herself - breaking. I wanted to feel her mounting frustration, her inner turmoil, the despair that she must have felt when Tam confronted her. Of course, it would have been best done from her PoV - (but we do get her PoV's building up to the scene that don't show the emotion, it is rather a means to further the plot, not to look into her emotions) However, it could have been shown from the PoV's we do have. Even if we only see 70% of it through Min's PoV - it would be much more preferable than what happened. It had less than 10% of the emotional impact. <br />

<br />

And it's not like Brandon can't do it either. He did it well with Rand in tGS, which is why the whole thing stands out more. He can do it wonderfully - I don't know why he chose not to do so for such a momentous event - the final failure of Cadsuane the Legend - but it was a huge missed opportunity which left me feeling let down. Like if Rand seals the bore in two sentences. "He wove Saidin and Saidar together, using himself to shield the OP from the Dark One. It was a close call, but finally he did it, and the Dark One's Prison was sealed once again." Logical, and it makes perfect sense, but not very entertaining or tense. <br />

<br />

To finish off on a lighter note, some of the things I thought Brandon did exceptionally with. <br />

-Rand in tGS was brilliant, he is good at writing brooding characters. (I have not yet decided on Rand ToM, will have to see his thoughts in aMoL to judge) <br />

<br />

- Perrin ToM. His best writing in the series. Enjoyed every scene errors/necessity aside, he nailed Perrin's character. <br />

<br />

- While I think RJ's battle scenes etc.. are better - he is a veteran himself and has a better understanding of the whole thing - I thin"k Brandon's "Epic and dramatic" style of writing suits the mood. Much more than it would have if it was aCoS or something. <br />

<br />

- He did Nynaeve fairly well in my opinion. The Testing - which RJ would never have done - is one of my favourites in the series for Nynaeve. (Egwene's lack of character excluded) <br />

<br />

- The Pillars Vision was truly worthy of the Wheel of Time. Perhaps the best chapter Brandon has written - perhaps in any of his books. <br />

<br />

- I thought he wrote Elayne pretty well. Not as good as Perrin or tGS Rand, but I thought it was good enough.</p></blockquote>

 

I completely agree with this (except for Mogs but that scene means nothing to me) . Thanks for the post.

[Viperswhip]

Are we talking about Mog's scene in like, I can't remember Lord of Chaos or Crossroads or whatever she she tries to balefire Nynaeve? If so, reading that scene, it struck me as if even Mog herself felt as though she was acting out of character. Don't we all sometimes?

 

Plus, we can't really rely on anything she had done earlier, she went through some pretty extreme trauma after being freed. That tends to change a person's behaviour.

[skalors3]

@Viper That same scene.

[Viperswhip]

I don't think people can compare that moment to Cadsuane's. Moghdien was very obviously totally panicked and frantic and had gone a little bit crazy. Cadsuane was calm on the surface. If she had started ripping out her hair because she thought the world might end and it might be a little her fault and then used the power, I guess that would be somewhat similar.

[skalors3]

@Viper The scene was used as a simple parallel to show that characters do act out of character in the WoT, especially when human emotions factor into the equation.

[The Fisher King]

ALERT!!! - Bit of housekeeping:

 

Relating to above postings by yours truly, I wanted to clarify after doing some research involving THIS excellent link: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php

 

I had said that Jordan wrote the ''Dinner Scene' between Elaida and Egwene in TGS. However, those that corrected me were...uh...correct...and so, I stand...er...corrected.

 

Brandon says in that link - taken from PolarisCon! - that ''most of what RJ wrote in The Gathering Storm was Egwene stuff.''

 

However, Brandon does indeed say he wrote the Dinner Scene and felt that the way he structured it worked better than RJ's notes originally suggested.

 

I just wanted to clarify that stuff. I never mind admitting when I am wrong. Well, I usuuually don't mind  ;-)

 

 

Fish

[rygar]

RJ is > than BS at WoT.  This is a given, it was RJ's books, no one could write this better than the original author.

 

But to insist that BS ruined the books and made them unreadable is just silly.

 

Personally, I loved BS's books the first time I read them.  But they don't hold up on re-read's like RJ's do, there just isn't enough depth or mystery.  But BS has done about as good a job as one could hope for and I will forever be grateful to him for accepting the vast undertaking.

[Suttree]

But to insist that BS ruined the books and made them unreadable is just silly.

Just to be clear did someone say that? Would like to check out that post. Brandon did some things very well, although the quality was far too uneven for an author of his skill. TGS and especially ToM read like rough drafts at times and the "rereadability" definitely suffers from the unpolished prose and numerous mistakes.

[The Fisher King]

I enjoyed TGS very, very much the first time through - and have always said that here. Rereads of that one are a bit rougher however.

 

TOM...I remember incredulously thinking of it as a disaster as I held it in my hands on my first read through.

 

 

Fish

[Viperswhip]

Fish, how did you think that? I mean, Egwene, okay, I don't want to rehash that, but Nynaeve was bloody spectacular, and you lurve her. Was in the transition to Jesus Rand? It was a little jarring, frankly I had no particular issue with TGS Rand lol But I didn't mind the Zen.

 

On rereads, of all the books, I skip large portions, but then I've read most of them 10 or 11 times, so I can do that without actually missing any of the story.

[Suttree]

I'm assuming he thinks that because it was a flat out mess. Unpolished/first draft prose, multiple mistakes, and a timeline that was screwed beyond comprehension. It quit literally should not have been published as it was. Brandon did very well with Perrin but that was the book that made Team Jordan change Brandon's writing process to include more drafts(like RJ used to do, in an attempt to polish the writing). It also led them to ask for extra editing time because they had avoid the "headachs" ToM caused and to get AMoL "right". If they actually have to emphasis that what does it say about the previous book?