Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[fionwe1987]

This Reddit quote from Brandon is interesting...

 

Ah, and what a marvelous 2,000 page book it would have been. I was really shooting for this. Turns out, however, that I don't have the influence that RJ did, and couldn't persuade the publisher that printing a 2,000+ page book was viable. You'll have to be satisfied with three 800 pagers instead.

I do kind of hope we'll be able to do a cut of the volume in ebook where I weave the three books back into one, which would fix some of the timeline confusion in TofM, which was the big casualty of the split.

(I knew that, in all likelihood, a split would be mandated, and so I prepared for it by deciding on the three book split instead of a two book split, as I feel it fit the narrative flow better. However, I was working on Perrin when the first split happened, and didn't realize until afterward that by jumping back to the beginning of his story after finishing TGS, I was going to create the issues it did with Tam.)

 

I'd love to see a redacted finale, where the repetitions, pointless scenes and timeline issues are ironed out. I hope Harriet and Tor allow Brandon to do it. 

[MarkDiLillo]

If Brandon had said that he would rather have taken more time to work on some of these books, then why does everyone with some small insider knowledge seem to be saying that he didn't want to use his extra time?

[fionwe1987]

I see your point...but that just further exposes something I brought up above, which is the //handling// of such a scene. I apologize for saying this so often but I just sooo enjoyed both the deft touch and the subtlety with which Jordan executed things. Rereading certain parts of TOM recently I almost felt insulted at how bluntly Sanderson hit me in the head with things...repeatedly. TOM feels like it was written for children.

 

 

Fish

 

How do you write this scene with subtlety?  She has lost control and is at wits end, this is not a subtle situation.  

What you do is make the impact of that felt. You want to show how this situation has even a 300 year old Aes Sedai known for her toughness stressed? You show that. Rather than have ridiculous, out of character quotes from Min about Cadsuane typically wrapping people in the Power, you have Min note the shock in everyones faces that Cadsuane had lost control. You show Min herself wondering how bad things must be to have Cadsuane so on edge. Then you weave in Cadsuane's ability to eat crow when needed, and have her make a genuine apology to Tam when she lets him free, rather than have her grunt. 

 

In short, you do what RJ did. You weave in PoV comments, character reactions, etc. to set the right mood, and get the idea you want to across. 

[The Fisher King]

I see your point...but that just further exposes something I brought up above, which is the //handling// of such a scene. I apologize for saying this so often but I just sooo enjoyed both the deft touch and the subtlety with which Jordan executed things. Rereading certain parts of TOM recently I almost felt insulted at how bluntly Sanderson hit me in the head with things...repeatedly. TOM feels like it was written for children.

 

 

Fish

 

How do you write this scene with subtlety?  She has lost control and is at wits end, this is not a subtle situation.  

What you do is make the impact of that felt. You want to show how this situation has even a 300 year old Aes Sedai known for her toughness stressed? You show that. Rather than have ridiculous, out of character quotes from Min about Cadsuane typically wrapping people in the Power, you have Min note the shock in everyones faces that Cadsuane had lost control. You show Min herself wondering how bad things must be to have Cadsuane so on edge. Then you weave in Cadsuane's ability to eat crow when needed, and have her make a genuine apology to Tam when she lets him free, rather than have her grunt. 

 

In short, you do what RJ did. You weave in PoV comments, character reactions, etc. to set the right mood, and get the idea you want to across. 

**Claps**

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

@Fionwe, that's disingenuous. It has been made clear that Cadsuane was cold towards Tam before anything happened and Min was in fact being truthful she stated that she had seen Cads do this before.

 

Maybe BS thought he succeeded at this. Maybe RJ wrote it himself and BS left it stand as it is. You guys are quick to lay blame here.

[Sid]

 Maybe RJ wrote it himself and BS left it stand as it is.

heh

[fionwe1987]

@Fionwe, that's disingenuous. It has been made clear that Cadsuane was cold towards Tam before anything happened and Min was in fact being truthful she stated that she had seen Cads do this before.

How is it disengenuous? Cadsuane has a cold voice in any number of scenes. How this affects anything I said is unclear to me.

 

And if Min has seen multiple instances of Cadsuane wrapping people up in the Power, I'd like to see some evidence of it. Last I checked, the only person Cadsuane has used this on is Semirhage, which is a whole other kettle of fish, and one Min never saw anyway.

 

Maybe BS thought he succeeded at this. Maybe RJ wrote it himself and BS left it stand as it is. You guys are quick to lay blame here.

We're most certainly not. Brandon himself has acknowledged his struggles with this character. We have pointed out the various ways in which this scene is both inconsistent in terms of what the characters in it think or do, as well as its shortcomings in terms of presentation. 

 

Now, you can continue putting on blinders and insisting that Brandon nailed Cadsuane's character. But please stop trying to pretend there any evidence for that view. There is not.

[skalors3]

@Fionwe I never once stated that BS nailed Cadsuane. I have said that this scene is a very plausible scene. Plain and simple.

 

What other scenes has Cads voice as cold?

 

Lastly, I have pointed out what is inconsistent with your arguments. Especially in your expectations that characters don't act abnormally.

 

I cannot argue with presentation though. This scene could have been presented better. I also could name a few RJ scenes that could've been presented better. It is what it is though and this scene doesn't chafe me at all.

 

You guys are a minority in your feelings and it isn't because you understand what's going on better than others.

[mbuehner]

Cadsuane herself boasts of spanking several monarchs. Unless they came willingly to lie on her lap, the idea that she bound them with the power is hardly unlikely. Regardless, this type of physical intimidation is right in her wheelhouse, I don't see the disconnect.

[yoniy0]

A minority? Putting aside the question of whether that should matter, what are you basing this on? I mean, naturally people committed enough to note or care about what is or isn't in-character for Cadsuane is a very small minority of WoT readers (it's a subset of the small minority of people who ever read it more than once to begin with), but what makes you say that--among those--the majority thinks as you seem to, that the scene fits organically in tWoT?

[Suttree]

Leaving aside the fact of whether its true(I guess skalors convened the grand WoT council?)it is yet another fallacy introduced by him since the debate started. Throwing in argumentum ad populem just to round out his earlier assertion that since Mogi may have acted out of character it is proof that Cads would change hers.

 

@mbhuener

 

That is rather missing the point. We see her assess people and use varying tactics based on the situation(of which intimidation is one) in a pre meditated fashion many times. The examples you cite were to fix flaws and prop up thrones. That is very different from lashing out with power against a defenseless man who has just told you the truth. Again that isn't just out if character, it changes it entirely.

[skalors3]

It is proof that it isn't as inconceivable as you make it sound. That was the point. If you make something sound like that doesn't happen in this created world, you should be sure that it hasn't.

 

As far as the minority, I wasn't applying it to this scene but to the books as a whole. Out of millions of readers, I can certainly say that you are the minority. If you poll it out of my friends alone (one of which is an English major) not a single one of them has complaint like the ones you've presented. Most of their complaints come from the length of the series as a whole. That's about 20 people in the real world. While it isn't an accurate polling, it is can be telling.

[skalors3]

Also Suttree, sometimes Cads doesn't act on her feelings because it could effect her overall goal. While that is in her character it begs the question as to what she would have done if she had no reason to hold back, like her situation with Tam.

[yoniy0]

So, I'm (I'm assuming you mean me specifically) in the minority in that I have concerns with ToM both on a technical level and a thematic one? Well, that well may be, but as you acknowledge a poll among your 20 friends (which, by the by, it appears to me you didn't actually conduct, but rather go on what's come up in conversations) is far from indicative.

 

In any event, as I said earlier, I don't concern myself with what the majority of readers think, or would think had they had the question posed to them (without a doubt, the vast majority would not come to it on their own). I only concern myself with what arguments I can come up with to engage other willing participants in intellectual conversation, and what they might bring to the table in return. In that respect, the wisdom of crowds is relevant, but only if the crowds in question are informed and engaged.

[mbuehner]

That is very different from lashing out with power against a defenseless man who has just told you the truth. Again that isn't just out if character, it changes it entirely.

 

People act out of character in real life... or more to the point under high amounts of stress they act in ways different than they choose to present themselves the rest of the time. The best parent on the planet might snap one day and slap their kid. Cadsuane is a living embodiment of Tam's point- she DOES use force to get her way, all the time. The fact that she would use that force (mildly, mind you, she held him she hardly tortured him) out of frustration in an extreme moment of stress is hardly impossible to believe. Seems rather humanizing to me. In a comic book world where good people only and exclusively do good things you could make that claim. But in the real world people do make mistakes and act out of character.

[Suttree]

There is still a disconnect here. Aside from the fact that you just moved the goal posts from your original claim of it being in character and you seeing no problem, you totally ignored the distinction I made.

[mbuehner]

There is still a disconnect here. You just basically repeated what you said the first time while ignoring my point

 

I think I addressed your point. You seem to think a fleeting moment of loss of self-discipline indicates a wholesale change of a person's character. I stated that I find that to be unrealistic. I've seen my sainted mother call somebody an A-hole in a moment of duress... I didn't leap to the conclusion that she had been taken over by bodysnatchers.

[Suttree]

See my edit as I clarified my thoughts after the first rapid response...

[yoniy0]

Oh, no one is saying Cadsuane is perfect. She makes errors, such as assigning Semitsu to oversee Cairhien (not to mention her lack of compatibility, her other Talents were very likely to be needed wherever Rand is), or failing to recognize Logain's worth, and to take heed of his warning regarding the BT (not concerning herself with the BT was a mistake to begin with). And the original one, that of finding Rand much--much--too late.

 

But when she fails, it's Cadsuane who's failing. We understand how and why that happened (exactly as no one was surprised at Egwene's suspicions about Compulsion, I presume). In that scene, and some others, it was her anymore, but someone standing in her place doing what appeared to be required to help the scene along.

[skalors3]

@yoniy0 I didn't actually poll my friends, you are correct. It was a statement. While it isn't in any means a valid criticism to sway the conversation, it can be an indicative of a potentially frivolous complaint to begin with.

[mbuehner]

I just disagree with that assessment. People do things out of character, and its remarkable precisely BECAUSE its out of character. Remember when Moraine flicks Rand's ear with the power and he assumes its one of the wonder girls because it was something Moraine would never do? (Back in, what Foh?)  Who 'possessed' Moraine to do that? What evidence is there that Cadsuane is not subject to human emotion or a rare outburst that comes with it?  This is like proving a negative- Cadsuane would never do that. Well, how could you know that? We know very little about here, how many scenes, a dozen? 20? And from that you can conclusively say she would NEVER bind a man with the power in a moment of extreme stress? For what its worth, I'd list Cadsuane high on the list of characters that would absolutely do that. And I'm a Cadsuane fan.

[David Selig]

Why exactly has this minor incident generated so much discussion? It's hardly the worst case of acting out of character in the series, not by a long shot. Cadsuane isn't that major of a character either.

[yoniy0]

it can be an indicative of a potentially frivolous complaint to begin with.

I vehemently disagree. At most, it's misleading. As I said above, in order for the wisdom of crowds hypothesis to hold merit, the topic in question has to be one in which the particular crowd was immersed in sufficiently so that their instincts point the right way. While I have no reason to suspect your friends of not being informed in tWoT, the fact that they're not speaking for themselves here means that they're most certainly not engaged.

 

In fact, it's probably irony in its best that the aforementioned requirement preclude that method from being applied to statistics. Probability is such an odd branch of mathematics, where our common sense just isn't reliable (as is most popularly seen in the Monte Carlo paradox). Hence my position that relying on a poll of anyone's close-circle to hint at the frivolity of any argument is a logical fallacy.

[Suttree]

I know fionwe provided this earlier but wanted to show it again as I think it is a solid statement on what could could have been done in one book.

Brandon

Ah, and what a marvelous 2,000 page book it would have been. I was really shooting for this. Turns out, however, that I don't have the influence that RJ did, and couldn't persuade the publisher that printing a 2,000+ page book was viable. You'll have to be satisfied with three 800 pagers instead.

 

I do kind of hope we'll be able to do a cut of the volume in ebook where I weave the three books back into one, which would fix some of the timeline confusion in TofM, which was the big casualty of the split.

 

(I knew that, in all likelihood, a split would be mandated, and so I prepared for it by deciding on the three book split instead of a two book split, as I feel it fit the narrative flow better. However, I was working on Perrin when the first split happened, and didn't realize until afterward that by jumping back to the beginning of his story after finishing TGS, I was going to create the issues it did with Tam.)

The bolded is a bit wince inducing, not sure how that happens...

[fionwe1987]

There's a ton of stuff I want to come back to later, but for now I'll just address this...

I just disagree with that assessment. People do things out of character, and its remarkable precisely BECAUSE its out of character. Remember when Moraine flicks Rand's ear with the power and he assumes its one of the wonder girls because it was something Moraine would never do? (Back in, what Foh?)  Who 'possessed' Moraine to do that? What evidence is there that Cadsuane is not subject to human emotion or a rare outburst that comes with it?  This is like proving a negative- Cadsuane would never do that. Well, how could you know that? We know very little about here, how many scenes, a dozen? 20? And from that you can conclusively say she would NEVER bind a man with the power in a moment of extreme stress? For what its worth, I'd list Cadsuane high on the list of characters that would absolutely do that. And I'm a Cadsuane fan.

 

Ahh but see... that's exactly the difference. When Moiraine did something out of character, we got several comments on it being out of character. 

 

Of course, a stick across the shoulders was not Moiraine's way; she found other means of chastising, more subtle, usually more painful in the end. Yet even sure that it must have, been Egwene, he did nothing.

That's Rand's first thought on it.

 

Then we have this:

 

"So it was you," he snapped, but to his surprise she half-shook her head before catching herself. It had been Moiraine, after all. If the Aes Sedai was showing that much temper, something must be wearing at her terribly. Him, no doubt. Perhaps he should apologize. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to be civil. Though he could not see why he was supposed to be mannerly to the Aes Sedai while she tried to lead him on a leash.

 

You see how, from Rand's introspection during the scene, Moiraine's actions become clearer? We even have more hints on what was wearing her:

 

"Eventually," Moiraine replied quietly. "Eventually I will have to leave you, after all. What will be, must be." Rand thought she shivered, but it was so quick it could have been his imagination, and the next instant she was all composure and self-control once more.

 

Moiraine knows her end is approaching, and she's worried that if she doesn't get through to Rand soon, she never will. While we don't get that right away, once we're done with tFoH, anyone going back can see not only that Moiraine was under stress (as is made abundantly clear in the text), we can also understand exactly why. And in all this, not once did we really need her PoV. It was all done with the PoV of others around her.

 

Thanks for pointing this instance out, as it captures exactly my problem with the way this scene was written.