Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[MarkDiLillo]

Brandon paints Cads as a complete hypocrite in the scene, for one thing.  Minutes after scolding Beldine for bad manners and asking her for an acknowledgement, she does something much less polite and doesn't acknowledge it.

 

Also, it's been established that characters that are around AS a lot, like Min has been lately, can see subtle things that give away emotional reactions on their faces, as Beldine had just given them a dark look.  She sees nothing on Cadsuane's face or in her demeanor that suggests that she's out of sorts even a little bit.  The scene does absolutely nothing to acknowledge that she's ruffled in the slightest, other than her actions.  Brandon has a tendency to overexplain things or even hit you over the head with them when he wants things to be explained in these books (case in point, Elayne's CH 2 revelation that Rand's letter means he's getting better at the game of houses by using a trick parents use with their toddlers) , and here he goes radio silent, suggesting her actions are totally in character for her, which they aren't.  That's what mostly ruins the scene.  Later, there's nothing in her PoV's that recall her 'losing her cool' with Tam either (an event that would likely stick with her for a very long time), so the inconsistency wasn't even acknowledged with a bandage in the next book, suggesting there was nothing to bandage.

 

Well said

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Sid" data-cid="2704297" data-time="1355508670"><p>

Brandon paints Cads as a complete hypocrite in the scene, for one thing. Minutes after scolding Beldine for bad manners and asking her for an acknowledgement, she does something much less polite and doesn't acknowledge it.<br />

<br />

Also, it's been established that characters that are around AS a lot, like Min has been lately, can see subtle things that give away emotional reactions on their faces, as Beldine had just given them a dark look. She sees nothing on Cadsuane's face or in her demeanor that suggests that she's out of sorts even a little bit. The scene does absolutely nothing to acknowledge that she's ruffled in the slightest, other than her actions. Brandon has a tendency to overexplain things or even hit you over the head with them when he wants things to be explained in these books (case in point, Elayne's CH 2 revelation that Rand's letter means he's getting better at the game of houses by using a trick parents use with their toddlers) , and here he goes radio silent, suggesting her actions are totally in character for her, which they aren't. That's what mostly ruins the scene. Later, there's nothing in her PoV's that recall her 'losing her cool' with Tam either (an event that would likely stick with her for a very long time), so the inconsistency wasn't even acknowledged with a bandage in the next book, suggesting there was nothing to bandage.</p></blockquote>

 

You're wrong there. Her voice is cold, the same exact description we would get from RJ about Dark Rand when he was in the void. Again, I will not argue with anyone who dislikes the quality of the scene. I see their compliants. I will have words with anyone who says it is not a realistic response.

[fionwe1987]

Had RJ written this scene with Cads lashing out with the power, we'd all be moved to silence at how much that simple action demonstrates about the moment without more needing to be said to define it. 

I think you just made our argument for us...

[skalors3]

@Fionwe That wasn't the original argument, but I agree. However, you may as well wish to ride a unicorn over a rainbow. The scene IS plausible though.

[fionwe1987]

@Fionwe That wasn't the original argument, but I agree. However, you may as well wish to ride a unicorn over a rainbow. The scene IS plausible though.

Sorry, it is NOT. You've yet to explain to me why Min, who linkens Cadsuane to one of her beloved aunts, would possibly think that Cadsuane losing her cool and lashing out with the Power at Tam was normal behavior for Cadsuane.

 

I repeat this quote in the hope that someone on the other side will at least try to explain how it fits with their idea that Brandon meant for us to see here that Cadsuane was in an especially tough spot:

 

Min had seen her treat others like this, including Rand. He had always grown frustrated, and others she did it to were prone to bellowing.

 

Here's how Cadsuane typically deals with what she sees as incivility:

 

"Good," Harine said, leaning back comfortably, in command now. Her smile was sickeningly selfsatisfied. "You will learn that—"

"I do not care a fig for your Coramoor," Cadsuane continued, her voice still mild. All the figs in the world for the Dragon Reborn, but not one for the Coramoor. She did not alter her tone by a hair. "If you ever touch me again without permission, I will have you stripped, striped, bound and carried back to your rooms in a sack." Well, diplomacy had never been her strongest point. "If you do not cease pestering me about your sister. . . . Well, I might actually grow angry." Standing, she ignored the Sea Folk woman's

indignant puffing and gaping and raised her voice to be heard at the end of the room. "Sarene!"

The slender Taraboner whirled from her embroidery, beaded braids clicking, and hurried to Cadsuane's side, barely hesitating before spreading her dark gray skirts in a curtsy. The Wise Ones had had to teach them to leap when a Wise One spoke, but more than custom made them leap for her. There truly were advantages to being a legend, especially an unpredictable legend.

"Escort these two to their rooms," Cadsuane commanded. "They wish to fast and meditate on civility. See that they do. And if they offer one uncivil word, spank them both. But be diplomatic about it."

[skalors3]

@Fionwe Since my Kindle hates quotes, I'll do it this way. Let's view the differences of the scenes first. In the aforementioned scene she has a mild voice, in the scene in question, her voice was cold. This is certainly an indicator that she is on edge about the topic.

 

Then we have a description of what she'd do to them. Which is fairly stern. Then she threatens she might get angry, which I assume is worse than what she originally threatens. They demonstrates that she is able to become angry and that she will act on it.

 

Then you have the biggest piece of proof for the realism of this scene, which is the POV that it os told in. You argue that Min portrayed her in a negative light after viewing her like an Aunt? That makes it unbelievable? She also views Nyn like a sister but is quick to admit her unlikeable traits. Same with other Chars.

 

Then she points out that Cads has done this to others. What's wrong with that? She has seen Cads act like this. You assume she is aware of Cads reasons. She likely isn't. She just knows she has lashed out in the past.

[fionwe1987]

@Fionwe Since my Kindle hates quotes, I'll do it this way. Let's view the differences of the scenes first. In the aforementioned scene she has a mild voice, in the scene in question, her voice was cold. This is certainly an indicator that she is on edge about the topic.

As opposed to the scene with Harine? Are you saying she was not on edge then?

 

Then we have a description of what she'd do to them. Which is fairly stern. Then she threatens she might get angry, which I assume is worse than what she originally threatens. They demonstrates that she is able to become angry and that she will act on it.

I'm stumped now... who said she doesn't act on her anger? Cadsuane acts on her anger all the time.

 

Then you have the biggest piece of proof for the realism of this scene, which is the POV that it os told in. You argue that Min portrayed her in a negative light after viewing her like an Aunt? That makes it unbelievable? She also views Nyn like a sister but is quick to admit her unlikeable traits. Same with other Chars.

No. That is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that in this very scene, Min comments that Aes Sedai do have emotions, and she's able to read them. Then we have a scene which you claim was a huge emotional stress for Cadsuane. If that were so, wouldn't Min have seen that, or mentioned that? Instead, she linkens Cadsuane's action here with her typical behavior. But you're claiming it is not typical behavior, you're saying it is stress. To which I'm saying, "If it was stress, wouldn't Min (who the author just had comment that she can read AS emotions) have seen that?". To which you have continued to have no answer. Min has seen this behavior from Cadsuane before, apparently. And as we've seen, she told Rand to think of Cadsuane as a strict aunt. So Min is seeing this situation as nothing new, no different from Cadsuane's strict aunt behavior. And Min just told us she could read AS emotions...

 

You're seeing the problem with all this, right? Min's PoV shows that you're completely wrong when you say Brandon intended us to take this action as Cadsuane reacting to extreme stress. Instead, he went out of his way to make us think this is routine for Cadsuane, with the only difference being that someone called her out on it this time.

 

Sure, you can argue Min can be wrong. But our point is... why? Why present this scene not just from Min's PoV, but have her perspective on this be so wrong? Its one thing if Min simply couldn't penetrate through Cadsuane's Aes Sedai calm... But Brandon shut the door on that in this very scene! The only conclusion you can reach from this scene is that Brandon intended us to read this as Cadsuane being her usual self, and being called out on it by Tam.

 

Then she points out that Cads has done this to others. What's wrong with that? She has seen Cads act like this. You assume she is aware of Cads reasons. She likely isn't. She just knows she has lashed out in the past.

In which case, why the heck have you wasted a gaziilion pages arguing that this was an extraordinary act by Cadsuane, done out of stress? You're contradicting yourself!

[Agitel]

Had RJ written this scene with Cads lashing out with the power, we'd all be moved to silence at how much that simple action demonstrates about the moment without more needing to be said to define it. 

I think you just made our argument for us...

 

Ha! Good one. I do hope it was obvious from my original quote that I wasn't talking about the writing. If we had RJ to thank for those same events there'd be no grand question mark about what was going on and we'd interpret the scene as intended.

 

fionwe, the typical behavior Min is referring to is Cads interjecting, harshly. We've never seen Cads take physical action with the power in such a way, but this reaction fits the circumstances. Min reading Beldeine's flush is entirely the point, it was barely anything. Min doesn't claim to be able to read all Aes Sedai emotions, just noting that they have them and that they're more difficult to read. Surprise surprise, Cads typically keeps things under even tighter wrap than most. The reading emotions line is almost a bit of foreshadowing about Cads' reaction, not a statement that Min is going to be able to read Cads perfectly.

 

As for what Mark D said on the previous page about assuming emotion, I do think RJ left plenty up to inference. I should clarify what I mean by the big "question mark". I don't mean things left to inference, I mean that everything Brandon writes is taken with a grain of salt and increased skepticism (in this case, I believe too much) because we don't always know whether things are mistakes or intentional, or whether that intention was initially RJ's or was Brandon's. I don't think it takes much inferring or assuming to read Cads' emotional state, it's fairly obvious given the situation she's in, her tone, her actions. In the previous chapter Rand's "void" fell apart, emotions were rushing in, things that he had been fighting to keep out. That is thematically similar to what we see her. I don't mean exactly the same, but we do see themes mirrored between chapters.

[skalors3]

@Fionwe I am not contradicting myself. I am addressing two different arguments. The first is Min's perception, the second is Cads reaction.

 

Min perceived this as being a typical response from Cads because she likely thought it was. Based on what Min sees of Cads in reaction to incivility. It is obvious that Cads is angry. The point is is that Min might liken her anger to every other reaction. Again, you assume she understands that Cads is not angry when she has treated Rand like this in the past.

 

The other argument addresses Cads in herself. She reacts out of character because of anger at the situation. Her voice is already cold with Tam before he begins his verbal assault. What is out of the ordinary for Cads can be seen as normal for Min; she isn't privvy to the inner workings of Cads mind.

[The Fisher King]

I love Sidster's post way up top on Cadsuane.

 

I have always felt that the three hardest characters for ANYONE (reader or author) to ''get ''right'' are (imho) Mat, Nyaeve and Cadusane Sedai.

 

Nynaeve is, in many ways, the female version of Mat. They are both huge hypocrites (in good ways) and are often verbally saying something that is directly the opposite of what they are silently thinking at that same moment. That is where much humor comes in. Nyn and Mat's humor are both defined so much by what happens around them - they are both nexus poonts for chaos. And also by the artful description by Jordan of the hilarious contradiction between deed and internal monologue. They both try to convince themselves soooo hard of who they are, what they will and will not do - then end up doing or not doing the opposite BECAUSE of who they are. Both are soooo multi-dimensional. I love them both dearly.

 

To me, the biggest fine line with my girl Cads is, the BIG, though FINE, difference between doing something because it is NECESSARY, because you have been pushed to the limit or because you are just a bully. Brandon wrote her as a bully at the end of TGS. Lets look at three main examples of Cad ''getting tough'':

 

1 When she ''breaks'' Aleis in WH it is because it is NECESSARY. If the counsel were'nt holding the Dragon, she would never have messed with them. A BULLY still would have though just to show how tough he/she was - that is what is is to be a bully.

 

2 The scene quoted above from WH with the Windfinders. She ''threatens'' but doesn't actually ''strip and stripe'' that annoying chick and she only threatens because she has been pushed to THE LIMIT.

 

3 At the end of TGS she just flat out BULLIES Tam - and with the POWER, no less. Shameful and NOT Cadsuane.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

@Fisher Neither of those scenes had Cads remotely close to being angry.

[The Fisher King]

Again, I would have to say that ''anger'' and 'bullying'' are not the same thing either. Further, I would also have to say that nowhere did Jordan give even the slightest hint that when Cadsuane became angry she turned into a bully. 

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

I just thought of something deliciously ironic - Cadsuane was unquestionably acting as a Bully in that scene at TGS ending, and Tam (who was also written in that scene by Brandon Sanderson) was RIGHT ON THE MONEY when HE called out Cadsuane on just being a Bully.

 

Tam was right. Cadsuane WAS simply a Bully...IN **THAT** SCENE.

 

What I don't like is that never before that scene did we ever see any hint that Cadsaune had that in her. She is so much more refined than that.

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="The Fisher King" data-cid="2704862" data-time="1355546628"><p>

I just thought of something deliciously ironic - Cadsuane was unquestionably acting as a Bully in that scene at TGS ending, and Tam (who was also written in that scene by Brandon Sanderson) was RIGHT ON THE MONEY when HE called out Cadsuane on just being a Bully.<br />

<br />

Tam was right. Cadsuane WAS simply a Bully...IN **THAT** SCENE.<br />

<br />

What I don't like is that never before that scene did we ever see any hint that Cadsaune had that in her. She is so much more refined than that.<br />

<br />

<br />

Fish</p></blockquote>

 

I agree. She was a bully in that scene. To say we don't have evidence that she has bullying tendencies is ludicrous. Despite reasons for doing what she does, she accomplishes her lessons through threats (or promises) and she pushes people around. The why doesn't matter, it is the how. So to think that she wouldn't push someone around while she is angry is silly. Standing on the fence and looking over it is easy to see Cads as a bully at times. That is exactly where Min is standing.

[Suttree]

Fish never said anything of the sort about her not having bullying tendencies. His point as should be clear by now is Cads has never been just "simply a bully". Bullying is just one tool she uses out of many to accomplish goals based on each situation. Here she is dumbed down to a caricature of herself and is just a dumb bully, nothing more. That changes her character entirely.

[skalors3]

@Suttree I don't know how you can even portray her that way. We glimpse her from a secondary POV. I don't think you can even argue that she is a cariacture of herself without having some sort of glimpse of what is going on inside of her head. She is cold, angry and lashes out. Fairly simple scene.

 

Secondly, Fish is saying that he doesn't believe that she has bully tendencies and that we have no hint that she would act out this way. I think it is the Cads we are shown. She is calculating, intelligent and calm. So are others. However, her style is aggressive. Muscle memory is a hard thing to overcome. How you treat others, regardless of reason, while you're calm is how you're going to react when angry too. It is the nature of things.

 

This isn't the best written scene, I agree Suttree. I however do not buy into the analysis that the objective content is off. It was rushed, but I cannot see it as wrong.

[Suttree]

Secondly, Fish is saying that he doesn't believe that she has bully tendencies and that we have no hint that she would act out this way. I think it is the Cads we are shown. She is calculating, intelligent and calm. So are others. However, her style is aggressive. Muscle memory is a hard thing to overcome. How you treat others, regardless of reason, while you're calm is how you're going to react when angry too. It is the nature of things.

You still aren't understanding Fish's point.

 

Also it's not muscle memory in the slightest and as I said bullying is just one part of her many tactics(which is what Fish meant, she isn't a bully because she enjoys it or it's her default mode). I'm starting to see the problem here, it seem as if your understanding of her nature is a bit off. I can't recall if I've ever linked you to Linda's at 13th Depository's breakdown of her actions and thoughts? She is never aggressive as some default setting, quite the contrary. Again we always see that she uses the best tool to fit the scenario. This is highlighted by RJ's notes saying she is "remarkably adaptable". Here from a different Cads thread...

 

Luckers

She does actually. She adapts fluidly and constantly. Compare her actions with Amys to Kiruna, with Verin to Harine, with Aleis to Rand, with Samitsu to Dobraine. She guages those she deals with and modulates her own behaviour accordinly--up to and including allowing events to not go the way she wished them to, as with her confrontation with Dobraine.

 

Below see a perfect example of her propping up a weaker persons confidence and saying quite clearly that you have to use the right tool for the job...

 

CoT

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

[The Fisher King]

Sutt - thanks for helping clarify while Ive been out. Skalors; thanks for the follow ups. I just want to clarify a bit more and apologize if the way I worded my preceeding posts on this issue made my stance muddy.

 

I am in nooo way saying that Cadsuane had never shown tendencies that could be called ''Bullying.'' I think a big part of the problem is understanding fine differences between Bullying and Anger and recognizing that there is such a thing as Righteous Anger. I also think - for me at least - the thing with Cadsuane and when she ''goes off'' is much about HOW she does it, WHEN she does it and WHY she does it - as well as how it is **portrayed**, authatorially-speaking. And this goes back, I am sad to see, to a word that has been done to death in larger issues here and that word is ''Subtle.'' - I don't see many people here denying any longer that Brandon Sanderson just is not quite as skilled as Mr Jordan at depicting characterization *subtley.* - Unfortunately, that problem probably would be most exposed in Mat, Nynaeve and Cadsuane - IMHO. What is odd - though I am happy about it - is that I feel Sanderson did a fine job with Nyn. Cads and Mat - not so much. Now, regarding ''The Scene'' with Cadsuane Melaidhrin:

 

We get three big examples of her ''going off'' and I feel the first two are great example of why the third is indeed ''off'' or out of character.

 

1 When she ''breaks'' Aleis in WH that could be seen as ''Bullying'' - but look at WHY she does it. It is NECESSARY. They are holding captive the saviour of the world. And - read the text - she nicely ASKED first. She gave Aleis CHANCES. She resorted to her BIG BAD CADSUANE act as a LAST resort.

 

2 - In WH with that Windfinder. Cadsuane sat there and took it and took it and tok IT. When she had finally had enough, and only after the Windfinder touched her without permission, did Cads go off. And she only threatened. She did not actually DO anything to the WF physically.

 

3 With Tam, it was not NECESSARY, she had not been pushed and pushed and pushed, the world wasn't ending, she did not go through her mental encyclopedia of who she was dealing with FIRST - as she has done with Verin, Rand, Aleis, Dobraine etc and (as Suttree pointed out) Samitsu.

 

She just out of nowhere went all Bully. It was very disapointing. She is far too much the intellectual for that and has a history of handling things far differently.

 

The Cadsuane Melaidhrin that I knew since Book 7 would have been DISGUSTED at ANY Sister who couldn't comport themselves well enough to not use the Power against a man like Tam Al Thor. She would have that Sister back in Novice White if she had to drop everything else to do it.

 

 

Fish

[Drakkon]

Sutt - thanks for helping clarify while Ive been out. Skalors; thanks for the follow ups. I just want to clarify a bit more and apologize if the way I worded my preceeding posts on this issue made my stance muddy.

 

I am in now way saying that Cadsuane had never shown tendencies that could be called ''Bullying.'' I think a big part of the problem is understanding fine differences between Bullying and Anger and recognizing that there is such a thing as Righteous Anger. I also think - for me at least - the thing with Cadsuane and when she ''goes off'' is much about HOW she does it, WHEN she does it and WHY she does it - as well as how it is **portrayed**, authatorially-speaking. And this goes back, I am sad to see, to a word that has been done to death in larger issues here and that word is ''Subtle.'' - I don't see many people here denying any longer that Brandon Sanderson just is not quite as skilled as Mr Jordan at depicting characterization *subtley.* - Unfortunately, that problem probably would be most exposed in Mat, Nynaeve and Cadsuane - IMHO. What is odd - though I am happy about it - is that I feel Sanderson did a fine job with Nyn. Cads and Mat - not so much. Now, regarding ''The Scene'' with Cadsuane Melaidhrin:

 

We get three big examples of her ''going off'' and I feel the first two are great example of why the third is indeed ''off'' or out of character.

 

1 When she ''breaks'' Aleis in WH that could be seen as ''Bullying'' - but look at WHY she does it. It is NECESSARY. They are holding captive the saviour of the world. And - read the text - she nicely ASKED first. She gave Aleis CHANCES. She resorted to her BIG BAD CADSUANE act as a LAST resort.

 

2 - In WH with that Windfinder. Cadsuane sat there and took it and took it and tok IT. When she had finally had enough, and only after the Windfinder touched her without permission, did Cads go off. And she only threatened. She did not actually DO anything to the WF physically.

 

3 With Tam, it was not NECESSARY, she had not been pushed and pushed and pushed, the world wasn't ending, she did not go through her mental encyclopedia of who she was dealing with FIRST - as she has done with Verin, Rand, Aleis, Dobraine etc and (as Suttree pointed out) Samitsu.

 

She just out of nowhere went all Bully. It was very disapointing. She is far too much the intellectual for that and has a history of handling things far differently.

 

The Cadsuane Melaidhrin that I knew since Book 7 would have been DISGUSTED at ANY Sister who couldn't comport themselves well enough to not use the Power against a man like Tam Al Thor. She would have that Sister back in Novice White if she had to drop everything else to do it.

 

 

Fish

 

I agree that it is out of character for her, but I think that is the intent.  A normal Cad would never act like this, would never condone acting like this.  She is desperate and scared, and just saw her last chance of fixing what she considers to be one of the greatest threats to the world fail.  I think we are meant to see just how unstable everyone/everything is becoming. 

[The Fisher King]

I see your point...but that just further exposes something I brought up above, which is the //handling// of such a scene. I apologize for saying this so often but I just sooo enjoyed both the deft touch and the subtlety with which Jordan executed things. Rereading certain parts of TOM recently I almost felt insulted at how bluntly Sanderson hit me in the head with things...repeatedly. TOM feels like it was written for children.

 

 

Fish

[KrisAnton]

I liked the pace of ToM. I was sad when RJ died. Nothing but every word written solely by him would make me 100% happy. I am 85% happy just to know how it ends.

[The Fisher King]

Carry on, Soldier ;-)

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

Dom over at TL has been making some great posts over there on this topic. Figured I would share some of them here to help the discussion move along. Makes some very good points for how different and difficult the process was for everyone involved. I've said it many times before but these books were far too rushed.

 

Dom

 

I guess so. I have bought but haven't yet read TWOK 1. Some of my disappointment with TOM had to do with the fact I just couldn't believe Brandon let the book be released in the state it was in - it was so much below his standards, especially for his recent works like Warbreaker and the last Mistborn. There are things Brandon does really well, and his own stories play on those strengths and usually avoid what he's less good at. He didn't have that luxury for WOT.

It was even more frustrating that some aspects of TOM were improved compared to TGS (which I found overall above my expectations, btw), that on their own most scenes of TOM are good and some quite excellent (with the exception of some Mat scenes which are altogether really bad, like the whole first meeting with Elayne sequence - or the Perrin-Elayne meeting etc.), and he's "got" Perrin better than any other character, but the way that novel was structured and put together was appalling - not even Brandon's earliest published work had that strong "beginner's mistakes" vibe as TOM, which read like an early draft for its structure. He's done things in TOM he no doubt teach his students never ever to do in a novel (like having a character appear in two story lines following two different timelines, and out of order. You get a scene with Elayne, a scene with Elayne-Egwene followed by a scene in which Elayne hasn't met Egwene yet - all that without solid chronology pointers included. Ouch! He's too experienced to do amateur mistakes like that) It's not normal at all an editor of Harriet's caliber and experience let that remain in a final version either, not normal she's let "draft" worthy stuff stand, like some Perrin scenes essentially repeating stuff from previous scenes. Things like that normally get cut/reworked as the editing stage. The whole idea of having Rand/Egwene develop in parallel on a different timeline should have been scrapped as soon as unsolvable problems of intersections surfaced. It wasn't unsolvable or even hard to fix, they just had to push all the Rand-Egwene scenes further in the book, RJ-style.

Beside, it was bad enough that the resolution brought by Rand's epiphany was known when you should not have known this reading Perrin's and Mat's stories (it undermined suspense a lot), without making it even worse by revealing at the onset that Rand and Egwene agreed to a general meeting set 30 days later. That turned the whole thing into "how Perrin, Mat, Aviendha and Elayne and co. have a few adventures before they're ready to set out for the Fields of Merrilor". We even had a deadline entering the book for Mat to set out for Ghenjei. Sheesh.

I can only conclude they all had their noses on the deadline and getting the minutia right and never could properly step back and really see the novel as it stood as a whole, and how much work it still needed to be optimized.

It could have had a big role, as Brandon has the habit of drafting whole stories, let them stew in the back of his mind sometimes for years, and return later to them to write a much improved second draft. The WOT schedule really screwed his usual process. That was probably the biggest mistake of the whole project, not to let Brandon (and the counterpart: Brandon not insisting more to get it), who was already facing big challenges writing someone else characters and filling someone else's spotty outline in a series with that much details follow something much closer to his natural creative process. When he chose to write by clusters because his own preference for more linear drafting would have been too demanding (it was hard enough to get the characters' voices and keep track of all the details of an arc without trying to switch between them), he never expected he'd be forced to stop drafting the story midway. Brandon doesn't do "midway", he always get to the end of a story no matter what to be able to look at the whole before he makes any attempt to restructure and polish anything. It's his method, it's how he gets good books out. And based on his own books, that process works well enough for him, much better than the process, a kind of compromise between his own, RJ's and something force on him by circumstances, he had to follow for WOT. It's the same for Harriet. She's known not to even read anything from a work she'll edit before she gets a full draft to judge the whole as she edits the parts. We were told she made exceptions only for RJ and only for the late series, where the editing cycle was ridiculously short, notoriously for COT. She had to do it for Brandon too - especially for TOM, and we see the result.

Even as he discussed the book split, Brandon was still saying he would have much, much preferred to take another half year or so to finish the first draft of everything before getting to rewrites and splitting stuff up.

There's no escaping the fact the process and circumstances shouldn't matter in the end and it's the final product on which the work should be judged, but given those circumstances it's also unfair to look at TOM as a regular Brandon novel. His work on WOT had improved what he can do as novelist, but honestly I find all his own novels superior to his two WOT books. All but Elantris, and perhaps the first Mistborn which was a bit rough (he still had his bad habit of relying way too much on dialogues as if he wrote screenplays rather than novels back then)

TWOK looks quite interesting, I'm just waiting to put AMOL behind me before starting any new series.

[DSgamer64]

Any flaws aside, I enjoy Brandon's work and he deserves much praise for taking on such a heavy task. I think he knew going into it that there were going to be critics that heavily complained about what he did, but I am sure it's not easy to piece together the finale of such a grand story with only sections to work with and having to create much of it yourself. I have enjoyed what he has done to finish the series thus far and I am sure AMoL will be fantastic, and I am sure he will continue to write great books, as I can't wait to delve into book 2 of the Stormlight Archive series when it get's released.

 

Suttree: I disagree with Dom's assessment of Sanderson, because I hated Warbreaker and all his other books have been pure gold. It was such a snore fest and such a blatant attempt at being overly descriptive like RJ was, but the story wasn't really all that compelling to me and the book was pretty short to boot. I loved Alloy of Law and I still get confused when people complain about the Mistborn trilogy as I thought it was a fine rival for something like Lord of the Rings.

[Drakkon]

I see your point...but that just further exposes something I brought up above, which is the //handling// of such a scene. I apologize for saying this so often but I just sooo enjoyed both the deft touch and the subtlety with which Jordan executed things. Rereading certain parts of TOM recently I almost felt insulted at how bluntly Sanderson hit me in the head with things...repeatedly. TOM feels like it was written for children.

 

 

Fish

 

How do you write this scene with subtlety?  She has lost control and is at wits end, this is not a subtle situation.