Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Suttree]

....

 

 

Wait what? I'm sorry but not only are the parts you left out crucial to the scene but if anything it is a sign of her restraint in the face of the WFs doing their best to provoke. She doesn't last out here in the manner that she did with Tam in the slightest. She uses her preferred methods hinting at what could happen, the threat being more than enough and doesn't resort to using the op on them(lashing out with the op is a far different thing than what you present here, she would have been sickened at any AS that would have to resort to the op in that situation with Tam). It supports our side and you are going to have to show a bit more than that to back your point.

[skalors3]

Now I don't think there is anyone out there who would argue that this isn't RJ's Cads.

I'd argue it. Cadsuane allowing a man to slap her? Not in a million years.

 

The whole "Sanderson admitted he doesn't like Cadsuane" is so overblown. So what? It doesn't mean he can't write her well and doesn't understand the character.

 

Actually if you are aware of the quotes you know there is a quite deal more to it which was my point. He admitted people thought he treated Cads unfairly and that they may have a point.

 

As for whether you would argue it, at this point, I think on the topic of Brandon's writing you have made that pretty clear. You will argue, even when you agree at times, you will still argue. Recall our shocked reactions when you actually came out against some of the pre release material.

 

@BFG

 

Leaving aside what I pointed out earlier about the plot work, one thing Cads has never been afraid to do is accept the truth. It is one of her biggest strengths. In the face of the accusations many people feel it likely she would have accepted his reprimands. Again she cartainly wouldn't have gone from calmly asking him a question to lashing out in one sentence. The scene allowed the fan gratification of seeing Cads get shut down carry the narrative.

 

 

She also responded to his incivility as she has with Rand in every other book. I doubt she'd change her attitude for a man who is her junior by many years.

 

I'm sorry but what? It most certainly is not in line and I think you need to go back and reexamine her motivations. She always has a very specific purpose and plan in mind. There is a reason to almost everyone of her actions. We see her respond in various ways when Rand acts the fool ranging from humor to reproach. Here is a good essay on her character if you want to check it out.

 

http://13depository....st-7-about.html

 

Lastly this scene fails to remember the one lesson she cites as being most important to her. Especially with the fate of the world on the line.

 

And she [Nynaeve] had not been put through the lessons that what must be endured, could be endured. In truth, Cadsuane sympathized with her. Somewhat. It as a lesson not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.

 

Winter’s Heart, The Humming Bird’s Secret

 

I find myself agreeing with the essay. It still doesn't change my interpretation of the Cadsuane - Tam scene. Tam has served his purpose. She has nothing left for him to attempt to accomplish. While Cadsuane does admit her failures, she does so to herself, not to others. I, again, find this scene in line with her personality. She has an image to uphold, and she upholds it here.

[BFG]

....

 

 

Wait what? I'm sorry but not only are the parts you left out crucial to the scene but if anything it is a sign of her restraint in the face of the WFs doing their best to provoke. She doesn't last out here in the manner that she did with Tam in the slightest. She uses her preferred methods hinting at what could happen, the threat being more than enough and doesn't resort to using the op on them(lashing out with the op is a far different thing than what you present here, she would have been sickened at any AS that would have to resort to the op in that situation with Tam). It supports our side and you are going to have to show a bit more than that to back your point.

 

I summarised the parts left out as concisely as I could.

 

This all comes down to the attitude you start with, in how you read this.

 

The way I read it, she thinks about using the power to 'stand the wavemistress on her head' in a way that suggests that in some circumstances she'd use it. This is entirely in keeping with the way she deals with people she views as being fools. Unless I'm completely missing something Harine can't channel and Cads thoughts indicate that she'd use the Power against Harine, a non-Channeler. The only ways around that are if Cads is an unreliable narrator - for which we have no evidence, or she can somehow stand someone on their head without the use of the Power.

 

Yes, Harine becomes increasingly rude and belligerant - no argument - (because Cads is ignoring her - despite the fact that the most important concern is legitamite, she adds more as Cads ignores her) - Cads is holding her sister prisoner, something for which she has no jurisdiction (she states that the Tower law is being interpreted loosely, in spirit). As readers we know the motives behind this, but Harine doesn't. The Sea Folk view of AS means that she's worried that Cads is planning on whisking her sister away to the Tower - at the least we can imagine what this would mean to her when reunited with the other Sea Folk, comsidering her treatment at the council.

 

Yes Cads shows restraint, but she loses her temper (with control) - in large part it's lost because she's angry with Rand. She reflects that her reaction was OTT after she's already reacted. When the scene with Tam happens, she's been banned from Rands presence, she's watching him spiral downwards, she's watching her life aim disintegrate, she's in a far worse place than she was with the WF, she reacts worse. I'm not claiming that her thoughts and actions with the WF are comparable to her reaction to Tam (obviously they're not), but the evidence is there that she could react that way.

 

I've already said that I think it's too abrupt, but I'm not sure which part of the actual action you find so hard to accept. She uses the power against Rand, by implication against others - I can't imagine the nobels she's spanked stayed still for it. Since I don't see her physically fighting them, it implies using the Power to help enforce her will.

 

 

If you come into the quoted scene with a different attitude, then I can see that it can be used as an example of restraint, but the text supports my argument - different people can read the same thing and interpret it in different ways (this is something I come across at work an awful lot, although it tends to be more visual medium).

 

I don't like the Sea Folk, I find most of them extremely annoying, I loved reading the above scene (fan gratification) where Cads shouts them down, but Cads is in the wrong in this case. It doesn't happen very often, off the top of my head the only other time is with Moiraine in NS, when she acts on incomplete information, and that's with reader knowledge.

[Ryan52]

Not sure if anyone else could have done this differently. If e.g. Luckers/Suttree/several others had written Cads, they'd have written somebody that I probably wouldn't have recognised. (EDIT edit: not saying they should, just names that have trouble with the way she's written)

 

Well we hold to the version of Cads in RJ's notes and previous books. Brandon is up front that he doesn't like the character and has admitted he mau not have handled her fairly as a result. Not only was this scene out of character but it really was just lowest common denominator plotwork. The whole thing happened in a paragraph as if he was checking boxes off the outline(ie Cads and Tam have confrontation...check) and literally in one sentence she goes from calmly asking him a question to lashing out with the op.

 

Funny you should mention someone else writing it however as Luckers did just that in a different thread in which someone said they didn't think Cads would let Tam talk down to her in the way he did. Here is what he wrote...

 

"What happened?" Nynaeve demanded.

 

"He..." tam cut himself off harshly, turning his gaze to Cadsuane, "what did you do to my son?"

 

"What I had to."

 

The sound, of hand slapping skin, resounded through the room. tam had struck her hard enough that her head jerked around; golden ornaments, fishes and birds, stars and moons, swayed with the force of it.

 

"He is my son," tam rasped, his face starch-white, "do you understand? My son!"

 

"I understand," cadsuane replied. She drew a kerchief from her sleeve, and dabbed at her lip. Despite the livid red handprint, her face was a mask of Aes Sedai calm. "I understand."

 

Tam swayed like a puppet whose strings had been cut, staring down at the Aes Sedai, and then collapsed back into a chair behind him. The room rang of silence.

 

Finally Min forced herself to speak; "What now?"

 

"Now?" cadsuane asked. She had settled herself into a chair opposite Tam, and if before her face had been calm, now it was more stern than anything. "Now we wait to see if I have doomed the world."

 

Now I don't think there is anyone out there who would argue that this isn't RJ's Cads.

 

Hahahahaha, that is just flat out awful...seriously.

[Suttree]

Hahahahaha, that is just flat out awful...seriously.

 

Care to express why you feel that way from a literary perspective or are you just going to swipe at Luckers knees?

[Ryan52]

Hahahahaha, that is just flat out awful...seriously.

 

Care to express why you feel that way from a literary perspective or are you just going to swipe at Luckers knees?

 

Sure, it epitomizes everything Luckers accuses Sanderson of shortcoming wise. The prose is awful and jarring, the characters involved are voiced completely wrong and it reads like terrible fan fiction.

[Suttree]

Hahahahaha, that is just flat out awful...seriously.

 

Care to express why you feel that way from a literary perspective or are you just going to swipe at Luckers knees ?

 

Sure, it epitomizes everything Luckers accuses Sanderson of shortcoming wise. The prose is awful and jarring, the characters involved are voiced completely wrong and it reads like terrible fan fiction.

 

Errmm what are you basing that off of? It is what I studied in school and from a prose & technical perspective I can assure you that most certainly isn't the case. In terms of voice I can see Tam being off possibly but Cads is dead on. As for fan fiction, seeing as that's what it is, I'm not sure your point?

 

Regardless would you care to give it whirl mate? Would be curious to see what you would do differently since it is apparently so bad from your perspective.

[Ryan52]

Btw try keeping the snide remarks to yourself, implying I am some snake to disappear back into the grass is against the CoC. You posted a piece of fan fiction with the claim that it was somehow more accurate than the author writing the books and I gave you my opinion of it. If Luckers does not want honest criticism of his work then he should keep it on his desktop or in a private message.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, unless anyone has anything constructive to say, take a step back for a while and return to the topic.

[Suttree]

Btw try keeping the snide remarks to yourself, implying I am some snake to disappear back into the grass is against the CoC. You posted a piece of fan fiction with the claim that it was somehow more accurate than the author writing the books and I gave you my opinion of it. If Luckers does not want honest criticism of his work then he should keep it on his desktop or in a private message.

 

It certainly is not and take it to a mod if you want. You sniped at him with an insult and gave no reasoning, hence swiping and disappearing back into the weeds. There was no insult intended it was merely an account of your actions.

 

Second I think you are failing to grasp the point here. The reason it was posted came from a separate discussion with BFG and that piece was originally posted in a different topic entirely when someone stated they couldn't see Cads ever letting a man talk down to her. It wasn't intended to say this is how it should have gone. As for Luckers I'm sure he would welcome any and all honest criticism but you seem to just be regurgitating terms you have heard(not to mention your personnel attack on him shows bias). It is fan fic and so that is what it sounds like. Regardless there is not a thing in that piece that shows unpolished, jarring prose. It's like you just found an old post of his criticism and tried to slap it on without understanding what it actually means in relation to analyzing literature.

 

The bottom line on this scene is it was an opportunity lost. Cads is dumbed down(following the pattern we see under Brandon time and again when two people come into conflict) and it doesn't even make Tam look good. How much credit do you get for calling a fool, a fool after all. There was no lead up, there was no depth to her character. She goes from calmly asking him a question to lashing out with the op in the next breath. We race through the scene in one paragraph and it offers little aside from cathartic release for fans who have wanted to see Cads get her comeuppance. In short she becomes a caricature of herself and the scene losses much of it's power because of it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thread is locked for the time being.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ok, the thread is now unlocked. I suggest everyone take a big step back.

 

There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion on Brandon's or Luckers' writing that is displayed her, however, resorting to attacks on the person will not be tolerated. Any further attack on a user will be moderated, please, keep it to critiquing the content, not the character of the person who wrote/posted it.

[Sid]

The problem I had with Cadsuane using the Power on Tam isn't that I didn't think she could do such a thing if pushed to her limits (like, to the absolute edge), it's that in the scene she gives no indication that that's taken place at all. She never raised her voice, she never had the slightest change in her outward expression or tone, no 'barest hint of a frown' or 'tightening of the eyes', she just lifts him off the floor as if she did stuff like that every day. Her thoughts from previous books give the impression that she'd have to be out of control to do such a thing, especially to someone that isn't the real reason she's angry in the first place and has no way to defend themselves.

 

Then after it's done, she doesn't come to herself (she just appears annoyed that he called her out on acting like a bully) or have the manners to apologize to Tam, or even look in any way remorseful. She has always held herself to the same standard she holds everyone else to (in her mind, at least), so in doing such a thing she'd be inclined to apologize after, or at least do something mollifying, which obviously doesn't happen.

 

If there's any scene where she would do such a thing like bullying someone with the Power, this would be it. But it's handled in a way that doesn't show that it is the last straw, the frustration bubbling to the surface, a realization that plans were ruined to a possibly disastrous result. We have Tam justifiably angry and then pouring his emotions into the flame and void, her being calm and making some pretty inane comments, then it happens. This was probably supposed to be a huge point in her character arc, a gut-check on dealing with something she hadn't experienced for a few hundred years, realizing she'd completely lost control of not only the situation but herself, and she ends up improving herself because of it (due to her adaptability). But instead it falls flat, likely in part because of the author's admitted personal feelings about the character and wanting the likeable (and totally correct) Tam to show her up a little. Brandon often seems to suffer from an inability to make any character shine without making other characters around them either uncharacteristically inept, negligent, or in this case improperly fleshed out. It would have been fairly believable had Cadsuane shown further and further degrees of annoyance or frustration as Tam spoke, and likely RJ would have made each thing Tam said unwittingly remind her of some other shortcoming in her efforts to add fuel to the fire, culminating with what she ended up doing as the last strand of composure snapped briefly. But she didn't show any such progression of emotion, and it seemed much too sudden and blunt of a reaction for her. Even from Min's perspective there should have been something to see, since in that very same chapter she thinks to herself about how spending all that time in the White Tower and around Aes Sedai recently that she could tell that they are not emotionless, and one can read their reactions if they know what to look for.

[Balefire to da face!]

My biggest problem with the way Luckers wrote it, is that Cads comes off as a frickin White Ajah cold fish at the very end.

 

I am a huge Cads fan. In my on and off posting on DM for over 10 years I think defending Cads against her many detractors may be the thing I've spent the most time on. I have never understood why people think Brandon writes Cads badly. The scene in question rang true for me. I don't mean it as a personal attack, but the way some of have latched on to that scene sums up perfectly to me the problem some people have with Brandon. They simply do not wish to give him the benefit of the doubt, and so every scene can be over scrutinized if they really want to. Which is true of most fiction, if you're not a fan.

 

See, the thing here is that you simply need to accept Cads actions in the context of the situation. Cads has never been some emotionless, logic driven, all powerful character. She exudes that to others, but she is a every bit a Green and can be emotional, and she's often not as in control as she likes everyone to think she is. We see this through the eyes of Min, so the claim that Cads just decided to wrap Tam up out of the blue is not appreciating the way that Tam's account must have been hitting Cads with bad news over and over again.

 

You also have to appreciate the situation leading up to the confrontation. Rand is spiraling downward, Cads has lost almost any grip, she is forced to following him around with a damn hood covering her head. Her last ditch effort to save any shred of Rand is Tam. And what happens?

 

 

The door to Cadsuanes room slammed open, causing Merise to jump in shock. Nynaeve hopped back from the door—it had nearly hit her.

 

Standing in the doorway was a very angry Tarn al'Thor. He glared at Cadsuane. "What have you done to him?" he demanded.

 

Cadsuane lowered her book. "I have done nothing to the boy, other than to encourage him toward civility. Something, it seems, other members of the family could learn as well."

 

"Watch your tongue, Aes Sedai," Tarn snarled. "Have you seen him? The entire room seemed to grow darker when he entered. And that face— I've seen more emotion in the eyes of a corpse! What has happened to my son?"

 

"I take it," Cadsuane said, "that the reunion did not go as hoped?"

 

Tam took a deep breath, and the anger seemed to suddenly flow out of him. He was still firm, his eyes displeased, but the rage was gone. Min had seen Rand take control of himself that quickly, before things had started to go wrong in Bandar Eban.

 

"He tried to kill me," Tam said in a level voice. "My own son. Once he was as gentle and faithful a lad as a father could hope for. Tonight, he channeled the One Power and turned it against me."

 

Min raised her hand to her mouth, feeling a panicked terror. The words brought back memories of Rand looming over her, trying to kill her.

 

But that hadn't been him! It had been Semirhage. Hadn't it? Oh, Rand, she thought, understanding the pain she'd felt through the bond. What have you done?

 

"Interesting," Cadsuane said, her voice cold. "And did you speak the words I prepared for you?"

 

"I began to," Tam said, "but I realized that it wasn't working. He wouldn't open up to me, and well he shouldn't. A man using an Aes Sedai script with his own son! I don't know what you did to him, woman, but I recognize hatred when I see it. You have a lot to explain to—"

 

Tam cut off as he was suddenly lifted into the air by unseen hands. "You recall, perhaps, what I said about civility, boy?" Cadsuane asked.

 

Her repeated, calm statements are a cover for what Cads must really be feeling. And they mirror almost exactly her seemingly calm warning that BFG posted in the scene witht he Sea Folk. It belies the storm of emotions that Cads must have been feeling. Only this situation is far, far worse then just some quarreling Sea Folk. Rand, who has been walking a razor's edge, just tried to kill Tam. Cads knows what that means, and her calm words contrast with how that statement must have hit her.

 

Lucker presents it as some kind of thing where Cads was in control, knew she was in control, and was totally confident. That is not how Cads thinks, that is only how Cads want people to think she thinks.

 

Why did Cads wrap Tam in Air? The reason this scene rang true for me, and why it was so good is because it shows the stress that this is putting even on Cads. Why did she do it? Because she is desperate, she has lost control of the situation. The very fact that it seems so out of character is the reason it is so powerful. It shows the desperation of the whole situation.

 

The same can be true of the True Power scene where some seem to have a problem with Cads being taken aback by Rand. I've never understood why people had a problem with that scene.

 

These opinions all ignore just how out of control and hopeless Rand has become in The Gathering Storm. Which is pretty much the point of the whole book.

[skalors3]

My biggest problem with the way Luckers wrote it, is that Cads comes off as a frickin White Ajah cold fish at the very end.

 

I am a huge Cads fan. In my on and off posting on DM for over 10 years I think defending Cads against her many detractors may be the thing I've spent the most time on. I have never understood why people think Brandon writes Cads badly. The scene in question rang true for me. I don't mean it as a personal attack, but the way some of have latched on to that scene sums up perfectly to me the problem some people have with Brandon. They simply do not wish to give him the benefit of the doubt, and so every scene can be over scrutinized if they really want to. Which is true of most fiction, if you're not a fan.

 

See, the thing here is that you simply need to accept Cads actions in the context of the situation. Cads has never been some emotionless, logic driven, all powerful character. She exudes that to others, but she is a every bit a Green and can be emotional, and she's often not as in control as she likes everyone to think she is. We see this through the eyes of Min, so the claim that Cads just decided to wrap Tam up out of the blue is not appreciating the way that Tam's account must have been hitting Cads with bad news over and over again.

 

You also have to appreciate the situation leading up to the confrontation. Rand is spiraling downward, Cads has lost almost any grip, she is forced to following him around with a damn hood covering her head. Her last ditch effort to save any shred of Rand is Tam. And what happens?

 

 

The door to Cadsuanes room slammed open, causing Merise to jump in shock. Nynaeve hopped back from the door—it had nearly hit her.

 

Standing in the doorway was a very angry Tarn al'Thor. He glared at Cadsuane. "What have you done to him?" he demanded.

 

Cadsuane lowered her book. "I have done nothing to the boy, other than to encourage him toward civility. Something, it seems, other members of the family could learn as well."

 

"Watch your tongue, Aes Sedai," Tarn snarled. "Have you seen him? The entire room seemed to grow darker when he entered. And that face— I've seen more emotion in the eyes of a corpse! What has happened to my son?"

 

"I take it," Cadsuane said, "that the reunion did not go as hoped?"

 

Tam took a deep breath, and the anger seemed to suddenly flow out of him. He was still firm, his eyes displeased, but the rage was gone. Min had seen Rand take control of himself that quickly, before things had started to go wrong in Bandar Eban.

 

"He tried to kill me," Tam said in a level voice. "My own son. Once he was as gentle and faithful a lad as a father could hope for. Tonight, he channeled the One Power and turned it against me."

 

Min raised her hand to her mouth, feeling a panicked terror. The words brought back memories of Rand looming over her, trying to kill her.

 

But that hadn't been him! It had been Semirhage. Hadn't it? Oh, Rand, she thought, understanding the pain she'd felt through the bond. What have you done?

 

"Interesting," Cadsuane said, her voice cold. "And did you speak the words I prepared for you?"

 

"I began to," Tam said, "but I realized that it wasn't working. He wouldn't open up to me, and well he shouldn't. A man using an Aes Sedai script with his own son! I don't know what you did to him, woman, but I recognize hatred when I see it. You have a lot to explain to—"

 

Tam cut off as he was suddenly lifted into the air by unseen hands. "You recall, perhaps, what I said about civility, boy?" Cadsuane asked.

 

Her repeated, calm statements are a cover for what Cads must really be feeling. And they mirror almost exactly her seemingly calm warning that BFG posted in the scene witht he Sea Folk. It belies the storm of emotions that Cads must have been feeling. Only this situation is far, far worse then just some quarreling Sea Folk. Rand, who has been walking a razor's edge, just tried to kill Tam. Cads knows what that means, and her calm words contrast with how that statement must have hit her.

 

Lucker presents it as some kind of thing where Cads was in control, knew she was in control, and was totally confident. That is not how Cads thinks, that is only how Cads want people to think she thinks.

 

Why did Cads wrap Tam in Air? The reason this scene rang true for me, and why it was so good is because it shows the stress that this is putting even on Cads. Why did she do it? Because she is desperate, she has lost control of the situation. The very fact that it seems so out of character is the reason it is so powerful. It shows the desperation of the whole situation.

 

The same can be true of the True Power scene where some seem to have a problem with Cads being taken aback by Rand. I've never understood why people had a problem with that scene.

 

These opinions all ignore just how out of control and hopeless Rand has become in The Gathering Storm. Which is pretty much the point of the whole book.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you. What I don't get is how some accuse this scene of being out of character for Cads when it isn't even written from her perspective. You only have Cads actions in this, and no true insight as to what she is thinking.

[Suttree]

The scene in question rang true for me. I don't mean it as a personal attack, but the way some of have latched on to that scene sums up perfectly to me the problem some people have with Brandon. They simply do not wish to give him the benefit of the doubt, and so every scene can be over scrutinized if they really want to. Which is true of most fiction, if you're not a fan.

 

The problem with this take is it ignores all the praise Brandon received initially when these two books were released. The scenes that were done well were immediately called and have been discussed time and time again by all of us. Then once we started going through careful re-reads which is where the issues really stand out, things like this started getting called out(to be clear there are far worse problems than this if I had to make a list so I do get your point.) Although there likely is a bit of truth to what you say above, unfortunately most aren't as balanced as you in how they regard criticism.

 

That is not how Cads thinks, that is only how Cads want people to think she thinks.

 

On the contrary, it is how she always thought up until TGS and the author change. Are you seriously trying to imply someone of her age and life experience isn't actually confident and in control? That scene BFG quoted is more proof of that. She was in total control, and idle thought of "turning someone on their head" does not even have to be related to the op and certainly isn't some sign of seething under the surface and barely hanging on. To be clear I have no problem with her getting to a point where she would lose it. But not in the manner in which it was written in regards to characterization and certainly not lashing with the op against a man like Tam. She would have been disgusted at any AS who would have to resort to that. Can you imagine the field day Isam's WoT would have had with this one?

 

edit: As an aside Balefire it is good to have you back around again. Agree or disagree you always have very solid posts and explain your reasoning well.

[skalors3]

Suttree, I like your signature change. Even though it has hidden meaning, it made me laugh.

 

I still think you're wrong about Cadsuane though.

[Suttree]

Suttree, I like your signature change. Even though it has hidden meaning, it made me laugh.

 

Yeah trying to keep things a bit more mellow. Glad you caught that though.

[Balefire to da face!]

The problem with this take is it ignores all the praise Brandon received initially when these two books were released. The scenes that were done well were immediately called and have been discussed time and time again by all of us. Then once we started going through careful re-reads which is where the issues really stand out, things like this started getting called out(to be clear there are far worse problems than this if I had to make a list so I do get your point.) Although there likely is a bit of truth to what you say above, unfortunately most aren't as balanced as you in how they regard criticism.

 

Well, everyone views the past through their own lens. I do remember that The Gathering Storm was received very favorably.

 

I also remember that there was some criticism right away. While I don't remember who, I do remember specifically that there were negative comments about Cads reaction in the True Power scene soon after TGS release(which is why I brought it up here).

 

I also remember that a alot of people(I would even say most) swore up and down that the farmer passage in the Prologue of The Gathering Storm was totally Brandon. There was no way RJ could have written that. It was scrutinized to death leading up to release. So much so that it actually wasn't until I started doing my regular pre-release Wheel of Time info research-a-thon just a couple weeks ago that I found out apparently that scene has been confirmed to have been RJ.

 

I think Brandon won over a lot of people with The Gathering Storm, but there was always scrutiny over who wrote what, and if Brandon could match up. The problems with continuity and time line issues are almost completely new to me, as I have been away from the WoTiverse since about a month after ToM.

 

That is not how Cads thinks, that is only how Cads want people to think she thinks.

 

On the contrary, it is how she always thought up until TGS and the author change. Are you seriously trying to imply someone of her age and life experience isn't actually confident and in control? That scene BFG quoted is more proof of that. She was in total control, and idle thought of "turning someone on their head" does not even have to be related to the op and certainly isn't some sign of seething under the surface and barely hanging on. To be clear I have no problem with her getting to a point where she would lose it. But not in the manner in which it was written in regards to characterization and certainly not lashing with the op against a man like Tam. She would have been disgusted at any AS who would have to resort to that.

 

edit: As an aside Balefire it is good to have you back around again. Agree or disagree you always have very solid posts and explain your reasoning well.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Like I said, I simply take it was yet another indication of how dire things are in The Gathering Storm for Rand. While I wouldn't even go so far, I would say the worst one could see it as Brandon sacrificing a bit of Cads self-possession in order to impress upon the reader the seriousness of what is happening. I just 100% disagree that it's Brandon taking liberties with Cads because he doesn't like her, or just Brandon checking off a scene in the outline.

 

When I read that scene, I see Cads wielding every casual comment like a switch, with Tam pressing her harder and harder all while revealing more and more dire news to Cads, where she eventually snaps. As BFG said, Cads in her own mind has considered doing it before. And there can be no situation more stressing then what had happened with Rand. There can be few situations that could have more clearly told Cads that she had failed. She may have quite literally thought the Light had lost in that moment Tam told her Rand tried to kill him. You don't think that could cause her to lose her cool?

 

And thanks, I am glad to be back. It's always fun to immerse myself in the WoTiverse prior to a book release. It helps to see so many more layers in the writing to talk about things instead of just reading them.

[skalors3]

I also remember that a alot of people(I would even say most) swore up and down that the farmer passage in the Prologue of The Gathering Storm was totally Brandon. There was no way RJ could have written that. It was scrutinized to death leading up to release. So much so that it actually wasn't until I started doing my regular pre-release Wheel of Time info research-a-thon just a couple weeks ago that I found out apparently that scene has been confirmed to have been RJ.

 

It is statements like this that reinforce some of the problems with the arguments at hand. There is just no confirmation as to who wrote what all the time. We have some idea, but nothing definite. I enjoyed the Perrin scenes so much that I was certain RJ wrote them. It turns out I was wrong. Many people forget that many of these scenes were written in draft format by RJ as he was on a sickbed. If Brandon tried to keep true to his memory, he may not have changed a lot of these scenes which also may have resulted in sloppy story-telling.

[Sid]

I wouldn't say that enjoying a scene would necessarily indicate that RJ wrote it. I've enjoyed scenes that Brandon obviously wrote, and didn't like some stuff that RJ wrote. There are several indications of who wrote which sections, though it can get muddy during the scenes where Brandon had to add lines in to connect things together. So being able to tell every line 100%? No. But I don't think there's a single entire chapter in the last two+ books that are completely RJ-written to his previous standards. Even the Isam scene was altered slightly to allow for Brandon's additions to Perrin's storyline, and the ToG sequence has 'bloody ashes' in it, among other things. Others could most certainly elucidate such things better than I.

I do pray that sections of the ending are polished in the same way he did on sections of previous books before he'd let anyone else read them. Hopefully there's a nice, unaltered, polished Mat PoV in there. It would be like the prodigal son returned.

[wotfan4472]

Athough Cadsuaine was off in this scene, it shows the man that Tam is. The kind of man that can set down an Aes Sedai with a few spoken words to me was brilliant. It also shows how Rand will be after his epiphany. Many have said that BS makes certain characters shine in scenes differently than RJ would, Nynaeve's test being a perfect case in point from ToM. I do not think that Cadsuaine was completely off, as by now everyone is more panicked about Rand, which is quite right. I also still think that it is not out of character of Cadsuaine considering that the End of Days is upon them. I still think of the DO smirking at all of this (if he had a physical face), as it plays into his hands. Still it is as good as we could get in our lifetimes from any author, despite BS's shortcomings.

[yoniy0]

I'm with Sid. There's a big difference between liking a scene and analyzing it for who did most of the writing. It's true that some aspects of these two different things infringe on each other (which is the reason I didn't like the chapter 11 excerpt from the start, even if the ending did change my mind somewhat), but that doesn't mean it comes from the same place.

 

As for the level of accuracy in our assessments, I can't say for sure that I never made a mistake; surly, Sid is also right that even when a scene was completely outlined by RJ, Brandon has more than likely had to work on it to some degree in order to make it publishing-worthy. The ToG sequence is perfect example of that--we know that RJ wrote it, but Brandon's touch is unmistakable (Mat's explanation of the nature of Ashandarei--quite obviously aimed at us rather than simply being is inner reflections--frankly made me cringe). Still:

I also remember that a alot of people(I would even say most) swore up and down that the farmer passage in the Prologue of The Gathering Storm was totally Brandon. There was no way RJ could have written that. It was scrutinized to death leading up to release. So much so that it actually wasn't until I started doing my regular pre-release Wheel of Time info research-a-thon just a couple weeks ago that I found out apparently that scene has been confirmed to have been RJ.

You have a problem there, because a recording of that scene in RJ's voice was played at that year's Dragoncon, before the release. No one who was active on this site prior to the release should've been ignorant of who wrote it. And though I don't remember, I can't imagine we would neglect to indicate that fact to anyone who was confused about it.

[BFG]

Somehow I manage to agree with both Sid and Balefire and some of Suttree above.

 

Balefire seems to view the scene in the same way that I do, I view it mostly as a scene that shows how dark and downright scary Rand has become by seeing that Cads reacts that badly in it. Having the viewpoint as Mins works because it allows us to still view Rand with compassion and through her love - most other viewpoints could destroy the affection that the reader feels for Rand. However as a result of this we don't see what Cads is thinking or feeling.

 

I take the WH example to show that even when she's being calm on the outside she's thinking things through on the inside. I see that she can lose her temper, feels anger (as she states herself). Clearly other people view it differnetly, *shrugs*

 

But as Suttree points out BS doesn't like Cadsuane, as a result of this he writes her unsympathetically and the result of this is that the scene is a bit to abrupt for the characterisation of Cads.

 

Since I view the scene as an indication of Rands state of being then it actually works really well for that, but Cads character does suffer for it.

 

 

The problem I had with Cadsuane using the Power on Tam isn't that I didn't think she could do such a thing if pushed to her limits (like, to the absolute edge), it's that in the scene she gives no indication that that's taken place at all. She never raised her voice, she never had the slightest change in her outward expression or tone, no 'barest hint of a frown' or 'tightening of the eyes', she just lifts him off the floor as if she did stuff like that every day. Her thoughts from previous books give the impression that she'd have to be out of control to do such a thing, especially to someone that isn't the real reason she's angry in the first place and has no way to defend themselves.

 

...

 

 

This sort of thing is missing from a lot of BSs work in WoT - I can't remember if it was this thread or the one on Chapter 1, but somebody rewrote a couple of Egwenes paragraphs and at that point I realised why some of BSs work sounded off, and it was because stuff like the above is missing. (But as such the fact that he doesn't include it doesn't mean it didn't happen.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yes, I think you have hit on it.

 

Brandon's writing leaves out these important details which give depth and meaning to the scene.

 

On one hand, you have the people who just assume that is what is happening. (which is correct, because that's what happens)

 

On the other, you have the people who point out the lack of development which makes it so abrupt.

 

 

Both sides are correct.

 

The intent behind the scene is there, and it makes sense.

 

However, it is not shown or done poorly, which makes it sound off.

 

So it is not so much the actions and scene that is wrong, it is the lack of crucial details or indicators as to the mood. Where things just happen abruptly without any build up or indication. They seem to come out of nowhere.

 

Of course, you can just assume that's what was meant, but when nothing is shown to explain things, it is easy to see why people think it is jarring.

 

I think it is a difficulty Brandon has with his writing. Instead of using facial features, tone change or character intuition (like Elayne feeling Taim is on the verge of violence, that sort of intuition) to hint at what is going on - he either doesn't show anything at all, or he uses the character's internal thoughts or speech to explain it, like he is explaining it to the reader.

 

The actual actions in the scene are plausible, it's just that you have to make assumptions and say "well he meant that", when with RJ the intent was always there in the change of tone or the raising of an eyebrow, you understood what was happening and didn't have to make conclusions based on nothing.