Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Finnssss22]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Brandon is doing a good job.

 

Says the guy who is named after a character from D&D marketing materials.

 

Wait, are you saying you have an issue with R.A. Salvatore and by association Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis as well?

 

Honestly though, I wish BS would stop telling people which parts are actually RJ's work until a few months after aMoL's release.

I think that would certainly put some real separation between genuine critique's and the people screaming for the sake of just screaming.

[Suttree]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Brandon is doing a good job.

 

Says the guy who is named after a character from D&D marketing materials.

 

Wait, are you saying you have an issue with R.A. Salvatore?

 

Not really no. I tried reading one of his books back in my early teens and didn't get through it. I understand he is a step up from most of those franchised series stories made to sell 85 sided dice, but is that really a ringing endorsement? When we have authors like Bakker and Rothfuss in genre now, not to mention classics from people like Peake and Crowley is there really even a need to go in that direction? Shrug...sure there is a place for hack n slash and characters with names like Zommbllbost the III but should someone with a sig based off a character from something like that ever be calling out anyone on being a nerd?

[Finnssss22]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Brandon is doing a good job.

 

Says the guy who is named after a character from D&D marketing materials.

 

Wait, are you saying you have an issue with R.A. Salvatore?

 

Not really no. I tried reading one of his books back in my early teens and didn't get through it. I understand he is a step up from most of those franchised series stories made to sell 85 sided dice, but is that really a ringing endorsement. When we have authors like Bakker and Rothfuss in genre now, not to mention classics from people like Peake and Crowley is there really even a need to go in that direction? Shrug...sure there is a place for hack n slash and characters with names like Zommbllbost the III but should someone with a sig based off a character from something like that be calling out anyone on being a nerd?

 

Translation: I haven't actually read much of those authors but I still feel confident that I can put them down and lump anyone who has read them as a nerd who only got suckered into buying more D&D game stuff.

 

Sounds good...

 

C'mon Suttree, you're better than that dude.

[Suttree]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Brandon is doing a good job.

 

Says the guy who is named after a character from D&D marketing materials.

 

Wait, are you saying you have an issue with R.A. Salvatore?

 

Not really no. I tried reading one of his books back in my early teens and didn't get through it. I understand he is a step up from most of those franchised series stories made to sell 85 sided dice, but is that really a ringing endorsement. When we have authors like Bakker and Rothfuss in genre now, not to mention classics from people like Peake and Crowley is there really even a need to go in that direction? Shrug...sure there is a place for hack n slash and characters with names like Zommbllbost the III but should someone with a sig based off a character from something like that be calling out anyone on being a nerd?

 

Translation: I haven't actually read much of those authors but I still feel confident that I can put them down

 

Do I feel I can put the work of most D&D franchise novels down without reading them? Yes unequivocally and I would put a significant amount of money down on D&D books in general being some of the worst written in genre. I understand that there are some exceptions to the rule but that is rather beside the point. It was an offhand sarcastic comment, not meant to be taking seriously in the slightest. Lighten up Finnssss, this isn't one of your head butting sessions with Terez. It's all good.

[Finnssss22]

Nerds going on a nerd rage. Amusing to see.

 

Brandon is doing a good job.

 

Says the guy who is named after a character from D&D marketing materials.

 

Wait, are you saying you have an issue with R.A. Salvatore?

 

Not really no. I tried reading one of his books back in my early teens and didn't get through it. I understand he is a step up from most of those franchised series stories made to sell 85 sided dice, but is that really a ringing endorsement. When we have authors like Bakker and Rothfuss in genre now, not to mention classics from people like Peake and Crowley is there really even a need to go in that direction? Shrug...sure there is a place for hack n slash and characters with names like Zommbllbost the III but should someone with a sig based off a character from something like that be calling out anyone on being a nerd?

 

Translation: I haven't actually read much of those authors but I still feel confident that I can put them down

 

Do I feel I can put the work of most D&D franchise novels down without reading them? Yes unequivocally and I would put a significant amount of money down on D&D books in general being some of the worst written in genre. I understand that there are some exceptions to the rule but that is rather beside the point. It was an offhand sarcastic comment, not meant to be taking seriously in the slightest. Lighten up Finnssss, this isn't one of your head butting sessions with Terez. It's all good.

 

Hey man, I was being light hearted about it. If you want to continue talking about it from a place of ignorance, that's entirely up to you. I won't try and stop you.

In all honesty, I thought if I pointed out how you sounded, you would come to your senses and just stop yourself.

 

But hey, lets leave Terez out of this. I have tried very hard to simply avoid her and not stick my nose into any of her insult laced, bullying sessions in a long, long time. Even through all the stuff that went on recently that got her a 30 day ban, I didn't say a single thing, even though I definitely wanted to.

[Suttree]

Do I feel I can put the work of most D&D franchise novels down without reading them? Yes unequivocally and I would put a significant amount of money down on D&D books in general being some of the worst written in genre. I understand that there are some exceptions to the rule but that is rather beside the point. It was an offhand sarcastic comment, not meant to be taking seriously in the slightest. Lighten up Finnssss, this isn't one of your head butting sessions with Terez. It's all good.

 

Hey man, I was being light hearted about it. If you want to continue talking about it from a place of ignorance, that's entirely up to you. I won't try and stop you.

In all honesty, I thought if I pointed out how you sounded, you would come to your senses and just stop yourself.

 

Yeah no worries mate. I get where you are coming from. It actually might be fun to pick up a few of the more absurd Forgotten Realms titles and start book report thread. That could be a seriously fun little project.

 

Edit: For the record though two seconds of googling found me this gem...

The second pie Jarlaxle threw came in harder, and was not meant to be caught—except by the man’s surprised expression.

“What?” the woman yelled as the pie splattered across her lover’s face, and he gave a yell, as well, but one of pain.

“Jarlaxle, what are you about?” Piter demanded.

“I am killed!” the surprised man cried. He slapped at his face, sending cream flying and eventually revealing a small dart that had been concealed within the pie, protruding from his cheek. He reached for it, hands trembling, but he couldn’t quite seem to grasp it.

–Road of the Patriarch, R. A. Salvatore

 

I AM KILLED

I MEAN WHO THE FUCK SAYS THIS

HE IS KILLED BY A DART. HIDDEN IN A PIE.

 

So ya call me not impressed.

 

Double Edit: and there is more!!!

 

Your words do not match your expression,” she said. “Tell me. Can you not trust me? What is it that so upsets the humors of Artemis Entreri? What is it about you? What happened to you, to ignite this inner fire?”

“You speak in foolish riddles of your own imagination.” He bent down again to pull his pants on, but Calihye gripped him more tightly, forcing him to look back at her.

“What is it?” she pressed. “How is a warrior of such perfection as Artemis Entreri created? What history did this to you?”

 

 

Very natural interaction there. As the article said it reads like a bad translation, does Salvatore understand how people form sentences?

 

Triple Edit: and yet again...

“Wahoo!” Athrogate yelled, the clear and steady tone of his shout defying the jolting, stiff-legged romp down the side of the dune. Despite those stiff legs and their shortness, Athrogate learned that his magical boar could cover tremendous ground.

The dwarf clamped his legs tight and sent his morningstars swinging wide left and right. He crossed from sand to grass, and the nearest bandits moved to intercept, a couple leveling spears.

Athrogate just howled louder and kept straight his course, thinking to pick off the prodding spears with his weapons. As he bore in, however, he found that his mount was more than a beast of burden. The boar had been summoned from the fiery pits of the Nine Hells, where battle was constant. Both its temperament and its armament were well suited to that harsh environment. It broke its stride only briefly, so it could snort and stomp a hoof, and as it did, a burst of orange flames rushed out from its body, a complete ring of wispy fire rolling away as it dissipated.

“Bwahaha!” Athrogate howled in gleeful surprise, and as the boar drove on, the dwarf clamped his legs tighter around it and adjusted the angle of his spinning weapons.

[...]

But the morningstar had taken him across the side of his head, and though he was standing, he was far, far from consciousness. Athrogate was many strides away before he crumbled to the ground.

“Wahoo!” the dwarf roared wildly, thoroughly enjoying it all.

 

Wahoo indeed, for I am dead. If this is the cream of the D&D crop I shudder to think about what the rest looks like.

[Finnssss22]

Yeah no worries mate. I get where you are coming from. It actually might be fun to pick up a few of the more absurd Forgotten Realms titles and start book report thread. That could be a seriously fun little project.

 

Well, I don't know about reading the "absurd" titles but if you actually want to read a good series, you start with the original Dragonlance trilogy.

For myself and many others, it was the series that got us into the full genre in the first place. Showed us that there actually is more out there than just Lord of the Rings.

[Hyronimus]

I'm not bothered by the way BS have written the books, sure some things stands out but if you think of it a bit more...

 

It's a wonder any of the characters behave like the used to when the entire pattern is unraveling and even the dead walk in the streets.

 

Yeah.

 

Speaking in general. A lot of the disapointment seems to be about how the characters are different with out considering that they have good reason to change. To be fair a number are also considered with how natural that change is, but it's worth keeping in mind; is it the messenger or the message that annoys?

 

Continuity issues are something I'll wait for the end to judge, not these snipits, but they aren't new to this series...

 

Judgements using extended metaphor abound; Bonding is not rape, it it likened to rape (by tradition bound AS) because of the power one person has over the other, but it is not the same, and I think not relevent to chapter 2 assessment.

 

sigh, plot discussion is more my thing, flame or ignore as you like.

[dwn]

Yeah no worries mate. I get where you are coming from. It actually might be fun to pick up a few of the more absurd Forgotten Realms titles and start book report thread. That could be a seriously fun little project.

 

Well, I don't know about reading the "absurd" titles but if you actually want to read a good series, you start with the original Dragonlance trilogy.

For myself and many others, it was the series that got us into the full genre in the first place. Showed us that there actually is more out there than just Lord of the Rings.

 

No, Suttree, don't. It will hurt you.

 

I liked the DL series well enough when I was a kid, but going back to it after reading nearly anything else... eek. Granted, it might be a margin-of-error better than those snippets you posted.

 

Critically analyzing bad fantasy books does sound like fun, though.

 

-- dwn

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright lets get back on Topic, if you want to have that debate, take it to the general discussion.

[The Fisher King]

Patton or Macarthur?

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

This is getting out of hand, as Barid already said.

 

First, go back to the topic at hand. Secondly, and I can't stress this enough, the next time I see someone calling somebody else names (whether specifically directed at some other poster or in general), that someone would have more than a talking-to to deal with.

[Saken]

I have a hard time getting my point across but I will try. I do not care about the things that most of you care about. To be honest, I didn’t even realize many of the things mentioned until I found this forum. I want to know the ending of the story and once I have it I will probably not read the books again until I am old enough to have forgotten what it was about.

 

We are dealing with two different men. Robert Jordan was born and raised in Charleston, SC and BS in Nebraska. RJ was for all intents and purposes a warrior who served in the armed forces during Vietnam awarded the Bronze Star with a V (participation in acts of heroism involving conflict with an armed enemy). He understood leadership, heroism, and the processes that lead up to that from the eyes of a young person. He knew there are two types of people. People who are willing to do what they must and people that can’t wait to get into the action. He saw people cry while getting mortared and fools who charge the enemy thus preventing friendly troops the ability to lay down suppressive fire. He met people who leave their hometowns and will never return because they realize there is a whole new world out there and people that only want to get back home to the family farm. He met people in real life that act just like Mat and I did to. BS does not and will never have the life experiences of Robert Jordan and cannot write believable characters as well as Robert Jordan. I am not saying this about all authors because of his experiences, there are many who write very good characters; this relates directly to BS.

 

As far as RJ’s ability to foreshadow and his attention to detail, I truly believe that it simply boils down to intelligence. The ability to do the things that he did was amazing and I bet there are very few authors that can. Robert Jordan was exceptional and Brandon Sanderson is not.

 

With that being said, to say that he didn’t work as hard as he could have is rude. An average man is finishing something that someone exceptional started and compared to RJ most authors are average.

 

To be angry that he didn’t listen to the 15 people that are distracted by “bloody ashes” and Aviendha not saying the man she loves full name is petty.

I believe he did the best job he could for an average writer.

[herid]

I really don't understand the level of vitriol against BS around here. I have many (and I mean MANY) problems with BS and what he did with tGS and TOM. heck, I stopped coming to this site or following BS last year when I saw that he started writing AMOL without doing a reread. I only came back recently after AMOL excerpts were published.

But I still enjoyed both tGS and TOM despite their many flaws. As I recall this seemed to be the prevalent feeling on the subject at the time on the dragonmount too. A year later, the majority opinion around here seems to be that he completely ruined the series. What happened? they books are still the same as they were a year ago.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think that is the case Herid, I just think that the most vociferous have been those who have had problems. After all, those without problems don't need to voice anything. And even though the complaints are being voiced, I don't think anyone is ungrateful nor do they bare any ill will towards Brandon. Most merely feel let down and disappointed that it seems Brandon has not - for whatever reasons - been able to do his best with the work. Many feel that Brandon's skill is far greater than what has been displayed in his WoT works, and wonder why this is the case.

[Suttree]

What happened? they books are still the same as they were a year ago.

 

As more people have gone through careful rereads the issues really stand out. The glow of plot gratification only carries one so far. At first people were just happy to get more material but no we have seen the general sentiment shift as people are realizing what we actually have and that is two books that are wildly uneven.

 

Edit: Wanted to add this certainly is not only a DM issue. It has become largely the prevailing sentiment over at TL as well. Just go over and look at their responses to Ch. 2.

[Agitel]

As far as RJ’s ability to foreshadow and his attention to detail, I truly believe that it simply boils down to intelligence. The ability to do the things that he did was amazing and I bet there are very few authors that can. Robert Jordan was exceptional and Brandon Sanderson is not.

 

With that being said, to say that he didn’t work as hard as he could have is rude. An average man is finishing something that someone exceptional started and compared to RJ most authors are average.

 

While I'm not saying RJ wasn't an intelligent man, I have to disagree with you putting it down to the exceptional against the average. I suppose we could talk and debate about that, but I'd say the primary factor is 'life experience'. RJ was both older, had a longer history of being an author, and had some experiences that Brandon hasn't (combat, for one).

[athrian]

If I'm just rehashing stuff that's already been discussed, my apologies. The thread is huge and my internet is slow today.

 

I remember when TGS came out and I first read it, my initial impression was 'C+'. I remember feeling that some of the characters seemed off and there was definitely much less description and a quicker pace. But then I realized I had done something while reading the book that hadn't happened in a long time: I read it all the way through without skimming or skipping chapters.

 

I know that there will be a lot of die-hards (and I don't mean that term with any disrespect) that disagree, but I had really become frustrated with RJ's writing style, especially in books 8-10. I know that his heavy usage of description and foreshadowing is popular, but at some point, I got tired of waiting years for a new book, only to read a book where existing plot threads are barely advanced, new ones are introduced, and chapters dragging on and on describing tables and food and skirt-smoothing.

 

The last few times I have reread the series, I really notice big differences between groups of the books. 1-3 move very fast in terms of plot, and of course there are some rough parts since I assume RJ is still fleshing out the overall world (and he wasn't sure if the series would get more than a few books). 4-6 are among my favorites, with lots of character development and IMO the right balance between describing the surroundings and advancing the plot. It really slows down after that, until KOD (which I remember was the first book I did not pick up the day of release, because I had been so disappointed by CoT). These later books are where I find myself just starting to skim or even skip whole chapters (like some of Elayne's) because I just get bored.

 

Anyway, I do agree that there are some things about BS's style that are cringe-worthy (Dreadbane), and he doesn't get some of the characters quite right. But I'm finally at the point where I just want to know what happens to the characters and the Last Battle, and most of the flaws in the writing style just don't bother me as long as the plot is advanced. I honestly don't know that if RJ had lived, would he have been able to wrap everything up in 3 books with the way he writes.

[herid]

I don't think that is the case Herid, I just think that the most vociferous have been those who have had problems. After all, those without problems don't need to voice anything.

well, I do have many problems with the books as I said, but I'm afraid to even voice them now given the vehemency of BS bashing that's going on.

And even though the complaints are being voiced, I don't think anyone is ungrateful nor do they bare any ill will towards Brandon. Most merely feel let down and disappointed that it seems Brandon has not - for whatever reasons - been able to do his best with the work. Many feel that Brandon's skill is far greater than what has been displayed in his WoT works, and wonder why this is the case.

What happened? they books are still the same as they were a year ago.

 

As more people have gone through careful rereads the issues really stand out. The glow of plot gratification only carries one so far. At first people were just happy to get more material but no we have seen the general sentiment shift as people are realizing what we actually have and that is two books that are wildly uneven.

all of this is fair enough, guys. Personally, I read tGS and ToM several times over right after they came out and my opinion about them hasn't much changed since. A LOT of problems, very uneven and things I wish were done differently and/or better but I still enjoy them even so.

IMO, they don't merit characterizations like midden heap, trash, dreadful and so on which are so common now. As for the charges that BS is not doing his best given his talent, this is extremely subjective and hard to gauge. I try to hold off judgement there by and large. writing is hard. where I do fault him and seriously is where it can be said fully objectively that he could have done better. The prime example is not doing a reread before starting to write AMOL (and TOM). This has nothing to do with writing skills at all. It's just a matter of preparation that anyone at all could have and should have done. The inevitable result is a lot of errors, dropped characters and plotlines and so on.

[athrian]

all of this is fair enough, guys. Personally, I read tGS and ToM several times over right after they came out and my opinion about them hasn't much changed since. A LOT of problems, very uneven and things I wish were done differently and/or better but I still enjoy them even so.

IMO, they don't merit characterizations like midden heap, trash, dreadful and so on which are so common now. As for the charges that BS is not doing his best given his talent, this is extremely subjective and hard to gauge. I try to hold off judgement there by and large. writing is hard. where I do fault him and seriously is where it can be said fully objectively that he could have done better. The prime example is not doing a reread before starting to write AMOL (and TOM). This has nothing to do with writing skills at all. It's just a matter of preparation that anyone at all could have and should have done. The inevitable result is a lot of errors, dropped characters and plotlines and so on.

 

I think that a lot of times when opinions get voiced on the internet, they tend to be voiced with more....exaggeration than someone would say in person. It's really easy to lose your filter when you're just writing something up anonymously rather than saying it in person.

 

I'm iffy about whether he should have done a reread before TOM and AMOL. On one hand, yes it might have helped with some of the errors. On the other hand, he does have his own projects and life, WoT isn't "his". Also, given how many plot threads and characters RJ has introduced over the year, I don't know that it would be easy for anyone to keep it all straight. I think even RJ made some mistakes like that. Additionally, we don't know for sure how extensive the notes were that RJ left. I think it's fair to call out some of the more glaringly obvious errors, but I don't know that anyone would be able to satisfactorily complete this series unless they spent a half-decade or more of their life dedicated solely to this series.

 

Again though, I'm just happy to get some resolution to the plot and maybe I'm too forgiving of the errors. I've gotten into too many tv shows/movies/books that end on cliffhangers or get prematurely cancelled and never finished.

[Suttree]

IMO, they don't merit characterizations like midden heap, trash, dreadful and so on which are so common now.

 

But the reality is the people who go as far as the bolded are very few and far between. I can count on one hand the number of people around here that take critique into straight out bashing. Back when TGS was released he was roundly praised with equal over exaggeration, often in cases when said praise was not in touch with the reality of the situation. I for one am far more likely to trust those around here who I know understand literature and have studied these things very closely. It is not with a light heart that the sentiment has shifted among the old guard.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Indeed, I get the feeling that people thing those criticising Brandon are getting some enjoyment or gratification out of it. This is not the case with most I have seen. As Sutts said, it is with a heavy heart that many people shift their perception. Indeed, it has taken almost 3 years to come about. This is a gradual thing, most have been reluctant to come to these conclusions, but feel that after all this time there is no other choice but to conclude what is being concluded.

 

And again, bar the few who make it clear, which are few and far between, there is no malicious intent behind it, rather a disappointment at what could have been. Most respect Brandon and are disappointed because of the quality they KNOW he could produce. In fact, one could say that "giving Brandon a break because he isn't RJ" is insulting his abilities. Brandon is a very capable writer in his own right, many just want that to be shown in the WoT.

[The Fisher King]

Correct. There are exaggerations on both sides. Most of the criticism is handled respectfully here or dealt with. Mark gets a bit crazy sometimes - and I like Mark and agree with the gist of much of what he says - but even he reigns it in. Certainly there is no hatred-spewing, torch-carrying lynchmob here stalking around looking for a tree from which to hang Brandon. To imply such vileness here is in its own right a pretty silly exaggeration.

 

 

Fish

[athrian]

I will say too that to be fair, I'm the kind of person that will go to Wikipedia and read a summary once I feel a book series or show has started to drag on or go down in quality. I do like epic storylines and can be patient if I think it's worth it (such as I have been with the game of thrones books). But as an example, I lost almost all interest in Battlestar Galactica at the beginning of the fourth season and just read the remaining episode summaries and felt satisfied. Same thing with the Dark Tower books around #6. So my expectations for WoT are probably lower than a lot of other people. I just want to know what happens to the characters I've been reading about now for almost 2 decades.

[waffle]

Sandersons strength is building great worlds. He is not so great at writing dialogue/inner monologue and creating characters that are as interesting as his worlds. He does have some successes in that department. From his new Way of Kings series i thought the bits with Dalinar Kholin and the white robed assassin were pretty damn good. Sometimes, in their chapters, i felt like i was actually in their head, not watching some sort of bad opera with people orating their emotions and thoughts more towards the listeners than other characters/themselves as it happened in most of the other POV-s. And the "witty" and "wry" Shallan was just awful. But the world he has created... it is amazing.

 

But the world of WoT is already built and there seem to be more and more of Shallan level POV-s.

 

However, WoT is being finished so thats great. I am a bit worried that Sanderson sees finishing the series as work and not his passion, but hey, i´ll take what i can get.

 

All in all though, i am grateful that Sanderson took on the responisbility of bringing this series to a close. There was no way he was going to make everyone happy no matter how he wrote it.