Dark Prophecy from ToM

[Zorlon]

Is there a predictions thread in which everyone voices their opinion on how things will go in AMoL?

 

You know, for bragging rights over everything you get right.

[yoniy0]

Why, yes.

[flinn]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

[XoMeltdownoX]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

[Neophyte]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

[Suttree]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

 

If it's a prophecy then it comes true regardless of light/dark. The problem is they don't always mean what people think...

 

Interview: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Ty Margheim (8 November 2010)

 

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon Sanderson (8 November 2010)

 

 

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

Footnote

 

The questioner is probably referring to the dark/light prophecies, as this makes the best comparison for Eddings. Brandon is saying that they will all be fulfilled, whether dark or light. (The Seanchan prophecies are another matter altogether, and Brandon was hinting at this in his last tweet; there is good reason to believe that the Seanchan prophecies have been corrupted.)

[XoMeltdownoX]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

Actually no. We have a quote from the author to say that both light and dark prophesies are true. Of course without that, I would have agreed with you. It is too late for me to go searching, but I will pull up the quote tomorrow.

 

I think what is important in both types of prophesies is interpretation. You may think a prophecy says A, but in fact is just obscure enough to mean B. Or in the WoT, C, D, E or F.

[Neophyte]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

Actually no. We have a quote from the author to say that both light and dark prophesies are true. Of course without that, I would have agreed with you. It is too late for me to go searching, but I will pull up the quote tomorrow.

 

I think what is important in both types of prophesies is interpretation. You may think a prophecy says A, but in fact is just obscure enough to mean B. Or in the WoT, C, D, E or F.

 

Did he say they were both completely true? Or that they were equally true? Those are two different things - if they are equally true then that could mean that each contains the possibility of failure. The Light prophecies could fail, and so could the Dark ones. But when what actually happens, happens, then one will prove correct and the other will fail. But until it happens 9i.e.the prophecy becomes the woven history of the Pattern), then both remain equally possible, and therefore equally true.

 

Find the quote, if possible. I'd like to see it - I could be completely wrong.

[thisguy]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

Actually no. We have a quote from the author to say that both light and dark prophesies are true. Of course without that, I would have agreed with you. It is too late for me to go searching, but I will pull up the quote tomorrow.

 

I think what is important in both types of prophesies is interpretation. You may think a prophecy says A, but in fact is just obscure enough to mean B. Or in the WoT, C, D, E or F.

 

Did he say they were both completely true? Or that they were equally true? Those are two different things - if they are equally true then that could mean that each contains the possibility of failure. The Light prophecies could fail, and so could the Dark ones. But when what actually happens, happens, then one will prove correct and the other will fail. But until it happens 9i.e.the prophecy becomes the woven history of the Pattern), then both remain equally possible, and therefore equally true.

 

Find the quote, if possible. I'd like to see it - I could be completely wrong.

Either way, since we know that Rand can fail, that means the prophecies, whether light or dark may not come true. Sounds like they're equally true, as you put it.

[XoMeltdownoX]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

Actually no. We have a quote from the author to say that both light and dark prophesies are true. Of course without that, I would have agreed with you. It is too late for me to go searching, but I will pull up the quote tomorrow.

 

I think what is important in both types of prophesies is interpretation. You may think a prophecy says A, but in fact is just obscure enough to mean B. Or in the WoT, C, D, E or F.

 

Did he say they were both completely true? Or that they were equally true? Those are two different things - if they are equally true then that could mean that each contains the possibility of failure. The Light prophecies could fail, and so could the Dark ones. But when what actually happens, happens, then one will prove correct and the other will fail. But until it happens 9i.e.the prophecy becomes the woven history of the Pattern), then both remain equally possible, and therefore equally true.

 

Find the quote, if possible. I'd like to see it - I could be completely wrong.

Like I said, I agreed with your assessment until I saw the quote. I believe it was from BS. Will look for it, but at the moment I have to get up in 6 hours. Too much bloody vodka, typing on a phone and trouble searching Theoryland on said phone hamper my abilities now:)

[Neophyte]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

Actually no. We have a quote from the author to say that both light and dark prophesies are true. Of course without that, I would have agreed with you. It is too late for me to go searching, but I will pull up the quote tomorrow.

 

I think what is important in both types of prophesies is interpretation. You may think a prophecy says A, but in fact is just obscure enough to mean B. Or in the WoT, C, D, E or F.

 

Did he say they were both completely true? Or that they were equally true? Those are two different things - if they are equally true then that could mean that each contains the possibility of failure. The Light prophecies could fail, and so could the Dark ones. But when what actually happens, happens, then one will prove correct and the other will fail. But until it happens 9i.e.the prophecy becomes the woven history of the Pattern), then both remain equally possible, and therefore equally true.

 

Find the quote, if possible. I'd like to see it - I could be completely wrong.

Like I said, I agreed with your assessment until I saw the quote. I believe it was from BS. Will look for it, but at the moment I have to get up in 6 hours. Too much bloody vodka, typing on a phone and trouble searching Theoryland on said phone hamper my abilities now:)

No worries. The Quote comes as the Quote wills.

[yoniy0]

I have a distinct feeling that I'm missing the original interview where the sureness of Foretellings was discussed, but here are a couple of things I found:

KOD Signing Report (Oct 29th, 2005) - Hermano de lobos (Paraphrased)

Hermano de lobos

But one person asked something to the effect of: How valid are the viewings and prophecies, given that the Pattern has been loosened? There was also a comment by the person about how the viewings and prophecies are readings of the Pattern.

Robert Jordan

Jordan responded, (not word for word) The viewings and prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern are very valid. But those that occurred at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.

Hermano de lobos

I thought this was pretty big news. I don't have the best memory in the world, so my wording may be a little off. Feel free to correct me if you were there.

 

TGS Signing Report (Nov 19th, 2009) - Matrimony Cauthon (Paraphrased)

Question

Some kid, to much laughter, asked if Rand was really going to die.

Brandon Sanderson

Sanderson said something to the effect of 'What did the Finn say?' He then said that the prophecies must be fulfilled or the Pattern will break.

[flinn]

It is impossible for both prophecies to come true. I dont care what Sanderson said. One says the DO wins one says that the Light wins.

[Neophyte]

It is impossible for both prophecies to come true. I dont care what Sanderson said. One says the DO wins one says that the Light wins.

 

Do any of the prophecies actually say "And then our guys will win - The End"?

 

We've gotten so little actual text of any of them, that its hard to say. Lots of lines imply eventual victory, but see: "Aes Sedai - First Oath" for how reliable implications are.

 

LOL ... maybe we've been paying so much attention to prophecies that are nothing but a bunch of political style nothing-speak. If you don't promise anything, then everything you say can come true.

[Suttree]

It is impossible for both prophecies to come true. I dont care what Sanderson said. One says the DO wins one says that the Light wins.

 

As quoted above...

BRANDON SANDERSON[/b]

 

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong,but there is not a this/that nature to them.

Footnote

 

The questioner is probably referring to the dark/light prophecies, as this makes the best comparison for Eddings. Brandon is saying that they will all be fulfilled, whether dark or light. (The Seanchan prophecies are another matter altogether, and Brandon was hinting at this in his last tweet; there is good reason to believe that the Seanchan prophecies have been corrupted.)

[Neophyte]

Then the so-called Dark Prophecies don't actually predict the Dark One's victory. They can't, if they are part of the Pattern, since it has been made pretty clear that the victory of the Dark One has to mean the end of the Pattern (since that is the only way that Min's viewings won't come true, and some of those predict things that are clearly after the Last Battle, according to the conversation in TGS ch 44).

 

Do we know for sure that the Karaethon Cycle, Jendai Prophecy, Essanik Cycle, and others actually predict the Dragon's victory? Or do they just say that he will fight? Maybe the whole prophecy shtick has been a joke all along, and they don't actually predict anything conclusive.

 

Edit: for clarity - That last sentence is a bit tongue-in-cheek. Of course some specific things have been prophesied and actually come to pass. When I say "conclusive" I mean "with reference to the conclusion" i.e. who will win the Last Battle.

[yoniy0]

Well, quite a few lines from the Karaethon Cycle predict the victory of the Light with some degree of certainty:

yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,

and his blood shall give us the Light.

 

When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth,

he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.

 

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,

washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.

[Neophyte]

Then, if all prophesies MUST and shall be fulfilled (according to Brandon), AND if those prophecies you've just cited do mean that the Light will triumph (as they seem to) then the Dark One can't win.

 

I'd be interested to see if anyone finds a Dark Prophecy that predicts victory with the same apparent clarity. No matter what Brandon (and even RJ) say, it's hard to reconcile two directly contradictory predictions will be pretty darned difficult.

 

"You keep quoting that prophecy. I do not think it means what you think it means."

-Infrared Montego, pretty good swordsman, 4th Age

[thisguy]

Then, if all prophesies MUST and shall be fulfilled (according to Brandon), AND if those prophecies you've just cited do mean that the Light will triumph (as they seem to) then the Dark One can't win.

 

I'd be interested to see if anyone finds a Dark Prophecy that predicts victory with the same apparent clarity. No matter what Brandon (and even RJ) say, it's hard to reconcile two directly contradictory predictions will be pretty darned difficult.

 

"You keep quoting that prophecy. I do not think it means what you think it means."

-Infrared Montego, pretty good swordsman, 4th Age

Is the BS quote on this thread? I'm guessing that all prophecy must be fulfilled for one side or the other side to win.

[yoniy0]

Well, the Dark prophecies we know only say "Now the Great Lord comes" and "bring us the Darkness so beautiful". There seems to be enough wiggle-room there to allow victory of the Light (as long as the road to that victory is long and bumpy).

[Neophyte]

"In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow"

 

"The Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful."

 

I'm interested to see how both of those come to pass. I guess it depends on who the "us" is in the Dark Prophecy. If it is just the followers of the Dark One, who go into Darkness when the Light triumphs, then the Dark Prophecies are pretty ... weak.

[yoniy0]

Neophyte, that's why some suggest that there might be two bloodings.

[Neophyte]

I was thinking more about the "bring us the Darkness so beautiful" part. What exactly does that even mean? It sure sounds like "the Dark One wins!" just like "free men from the Shadow" sounds like "the Light wins!" But what if "free men from the Shadow" means obliterating the Wheel, thus freeing everyone from everything - the Shadow, their nagging wives, bill collectors, and their tiresome lives?

 

Hmm ... that line had a little rhythm to it ...

 

I guess my point is that the verbal gymnastics that can be done with any of those lines means that they're basically meaningless until we see what actually happens. Words that can mean anything don't actually mean anything.

[thisguy]

I was thinking more about the "bring us the Darkness so beautiful" part. What exactly does that even mean? It sure sounds like "the Dark One wins!" just like "free men from the Shadow" sounds like "the Light wins!" But what if "free men from the Shadow" means obliterating the Wheel, thus freeing everyone from everything - the Shadow, their nagging wives, bill collectors, and their tiresome lives?

 

Hmm ... that line had a little rhythm to it ...

 

I guess my point is that the verbal gymnastics that can be done with any of those lines means that they're basically meaningless until we see what actually happens. Words that can mean anything don't actually mean anything.

Maybe the DO brings the darkness, which accounts for the two dawns thing and Rand wins (second dawn). And, then Patrick Swayze and Charlie Sheen bring Red Dawn and the 4th age is just the 1980s.

[XoMeltdownoX]

To me it was so apparent it was Itulrude(sp).

Rand even says after he rains fire on them and he goes back to Min....

"And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that.(Light in the soldiers defying the dark one).He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit."

 

So, if he had killed Iturulde (the little wolf) he would have brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

Prophecies are no less true because they come from DF's than those the light has recorded. Therefore your argument that "if they killed" is invalid. It did not happen, so It is not part of any prophecy.

 

Actually, since the Dark Prophecies predict the triumph of the Dark One, and the other prophecies don't, they can't both be equally true, at least not in their entirety. I'm kind of with Rand about the value of Foretelling-style prophecy - it is not a prediction of what will or must happen, but what is likely or probable. I think that is the difference between Foretelling and what Min does.

 

There seems to be a gradation of certainty. Dreaming provides predictions with the greatest margin for error, Foretelling much less so, and Min-style "reading the Pattern" has no wiggle room at all - if the Pattern survives, what she sees WILL happen.

Actually no. We have a quote from the author to say that both light and dark prophesies are true. Of course without that, I would have agreed with you. It is too late for me to go searching, but I will pull up the quote tomorrow.

 

I think what is important in both types of prophesies is interpretation. You may think a prophecy says A, but in fact is just obscure enough to mean B. Or in the WoT, C, D, E or F.

 

Did he say they were both completely true? Or that they were equally true? Those are two different things - if they are equally true then that could mean that each contains the possibility of failure. The Light prophecies could fail, and so could the Dark ones. But when what actually happens, happens, then one will prove correct and the other will fail. But until it happens 9i.e.the prophecy becomes the woven history of the Pattern), then both remain equally possible, and therefore equally true.

 

Find the quote, if possible. I'd like to see it - I could be completely wrong.

Like I said, I agreed with your assessment until I saw the quote. I believe it was from BS. Will look for it, but at the moment I have to get up in 6 hours. Too much bloody vodka, typing on a phone and trouble searching Theoryland on said phone hamper my abilities now:)

No worries. The Quote comes as the Quote wills.

Besides the quote provided by someone (was it Yon?), I found this on theoryland. I would have preferred if it was a direct quote, but seems to be a summary. The person asked Brandon about the differences in the Seanchan prophecies:

 

"Brandon said it was a bit of both. He compared it with the story of Beowulf, how a scribe creating a new copy would change one line to make it more Christian, or to make their interpretation more clear. This combined with some influence by the Dark One and his minions make it complicated. He added that it is not that one of the two is true and the other false. They might be on some things, on others both can be true even if it seems to be a contradiction. It's all in the interpretation of the prophecies which is a tricky business. He also remarked that the Darkfriends also have their prophecies, Foretellings and Dreamers, whose predictions are just as valid as the ones from the Light. Being dark prophecies doesn't invalidate them."