Why Do I Keep Doing This To Myself (A paranoid guy who seems to hate most things reading WOT REALLY slowly)

[Darthe]

By the way, you would probably like the Mistborn series. Sanderson is a bit frufru with his writing etc but the villains are certainly competent. Especially Ironeyes..

[EmperorAllspice]

40 pages into Crossroads.

 

Ohhhh, I get to hear about some of the fallout of Graendal's schemeing. That's pretty sweet. I like Ituralde. I like all of the Great Captains though.

[EmperorAllspice]

Almost 500 pages into Crossroads.

 

So far this book has been pretty awesome. Perrin's story has been great. Faile's story has given me a chance to see Galina again (plus her current situation continues to make Faile all the more likeable which is brilliant)

 

Elayne's story is my favourite part of the series right now. Daved Hanlon is now definitely in my top 10 favourite antagonists for WOT. Just the way he carries himself and how cunning he is.

 

The story has shifted to Egwene's POV and so far Egwene hasn't done anything particularly insufferable. and I actually really like Delana. My god, an Aes Sedai who isn't a main character who comes off as intelligent

[Millon]

Ya know Emperor I've never thought about the villains that way. The point you made about the EFFECT they had on the world. I've only griped about the actual characters. Terribly disappointed with demandred though. They build his character up but you just don't get to see it. I was happy to see Perrin pick it up too. He WAS a favorite character until he got all emo. So much for being a solid thinker. That whole arc just annoyed the hell out of me with how LONG it went.

[EmperorAllspice]

I hear Demandred gets to be awesome in AMOL though. so that'll be fun once I get there (yes, I'm aware that he's also kind of an idiot since he could've won at any time but I take what I can get here XD)

[Millon]

Not sure you'll appreciate his character in AMOL but I won't say anymore on that. Lol

[EmperorAllspice]

God dammit.

 

Half the people I talk to say I'd love him in AMOL.

 

Half of them say I'll hate him. What's the deal!? The indecisiveness of this fandom is weird

 

Are the villains good or not. Half say they're terrible. Others think they're the greatest antagonists in the history of fiction

[suchmadness]

The nature of evil is discord and chaos therefore it is against his nature to have his followers co-operate with one another. The DO cannot comprehend harmony, it's a dog eat dog's world where the strongest comes out on top and any weakness is to be exploited or eliminated.

 

Evil is more effective with a veneer of politeness. After all what could be more evil than to turn the cornerstone of respectability on its head?

Hannibal Lecter comes to mind. He served his dinner guests the liver of his murdered victim with fava beans!

 

Couladin is not evil. He's just a raving maniac. Like a rabid dog he needs to be put down as far as I'm concerned. Now the person behind him is the realy evil one.

[EmperorAllspice]

Unfortunately Sevanna isn't very interesting. She's not particularly smart. She has no real skills that make her worthy of admiration. I think a good antagonist should have something admirable about them. Either that or be highly entertaining in their pointless cruelty (like Semi) or loveable in how useless they are (Aginor) Sevanna is none of these

 

Couladin is at least a skilled fighter (par for the course for the Aiel, yes, but enough to give Mat trouble.)

[suchmadness]

I was thinking more of Asmodean. He started all this trouble in the first place just to slow Rand down and keep him occupied while he searched Rhuidean.

The guy gave his mother to myrddraal! What could be more evil than that?!

 

I think the reason why so many liked Mat is because they can relate to him. Whoever dream of adventure and the wide world, of fleeing the home nest in search of treasure, of drinking copiusly in den of iniquity and of having sex with unsuitable people can see themselves in him. The poor guy he only got started and already he got tainted in Shadar Logoth. All he wanted was adventure nad enough money to start his own farm.

 

What is this preoccupation with darkness and evil may I ask? You're not a goth by any chance?

[EmperorAllspice]

I much prefer antagonists to protagonists. I'm more interested in the exploits of those who create the conflict to those who react to it. Granted, the main characters need to be likeable too but when I look for "awesome moments" I expect the bad guys to have just as many as the heroes. Otherwise why should I buy them as a credible threat.

 

I watch main characters for the actual emotional heart of a work. I watch antagonists for the spectacle. Nothing makes my teeth grind like a main character doing something easily. (unless it's instantly mitigated by them failing in some fashion)

[suchmadness]

Now I'm sucking the marrow of murdered chicken.

 

I'm evil!

 

MWAAAH MWHAAAW hee hee...

[suchmadness]

Evilness need good antagonists too otherwise it's just banality. The more darkness the more the more you need light for contrast.

 

Mat is hilarious in that way. No one takes him seriously. In fact when Nighneave started treating him differently it confused him. Nothing comes to him easily. The amount of time he nearly got killed all while trying to get away from the troubles is incredibly entertaining. All his vaunted good luck comes at a very steep price. I think what keeps him sane is his refusal to take himself seriuosly.

 

Now Perrin, by the end of CoT I feel like his therapist! I can't believe how so many indulged him! Where is Cadsuane when you need her. Now there's a woman to like. She remaind me of Granny Weatherwax in Prattchet's stories. A no nonsense tough talking woman!

[suchmadness]

What could be more antogonistic to the forces of darkness than a guy who refused to die?

[EmperorAllspice]

_{Actually, I don't like Mat BECAUSE it feels like everything comes to him easily. Yes, personally he might suffer because of his luck, but in the grand scheme of events he feels the most indestructible to me. It never feels like he's in any danger during his fights. That even if he was disarmed thye enemy would trip over their own shoelaces and impale themselves. Rand and Perrin are saved by luck a lot too, but it's not as ridiculous as the sort of stuff Mat can do, and with him it feels a lot more egregious.}

 

_{And I don't like Cadsuane because it feels like she's another character who can't lose. I measure heroes not in successes, but in failure, and how they rise from it. Cadsuane has yet to fail. She's yet to be bested. Yet to be outsmarted. She does EVERYTHING right. and that's just... frustrating for someone like me!}

[EmperorAllspice]

 it doesn't matter. No one understands how I think :(

[suchmadness]

I will refrain from saying there there poor misunderstood you.

 

I think you suffer from taking yourself seriously. Let others do that.

 

Someone very wise once said that nothing is more sad than someone not taken seriously by others. They ended up taking themseves too seriously. There lies depression!

[EmperorAllspice]

I know. It's just frustrating looking at people going on about how cool a character is and just not agreeing with them at all. It's lonely. Like I think I'm the only guy who preferred Mat in books 1 and 2. and doesn't like Cadsuane

[Millon]

I COMPLETELY agree with you Emperor. I have always been pro-darkside. You KNOW the good guy is going to win and that's where you find the core, strength, unity, perseverence but you need GRIT. I don't like fairy tales where there is no contrast. But I am more interested in what makes up the bad guys. How you can see there road to power and madness and how realistic the progression and development is. I especially like Asmo for this. He is evil for purely tangible greedy reasons. He wanted to live forever because he feared death and wanted to pursue his passion. Demandred is awesome for his pure cold hate of his better. like the evil little brother story. Always trying to be the better but never getting there. I like Lanfear for the twisted love/lust for power angle. OOOOOOOOO, and Graendal. THERE is an evil one. Her core was simple domination. Domination of all things. Domination and control. Ishy is just crazy and that's always fun. the rest was just filler and fluff. Moghedien annoyed me.

[EmperorAllspice]

Why are the Forsaken so terrible at hiding the fact that they're evil?

 

Look at Balthamel, Egwene says one thing he didn't like and he drops his cover and seems poised to rip her lungs out. I get why he'd be angry but he's undercover RIGHT in front of his mark. How can a spy get away with having such poor self restraint. Mogheiden as well. Her JOB is to be a master spy who's good at blending in.

 

It's just frustrating when it seems like evil only succeeds as much as it does because the good guys are too stupid to notice. (which is demeaning for both sides but especially the bad guys, because it makes it seem like they can't do anything unless the good guys do something dumb)

[suchmadness]

I COMPLETELY agree with you Emperor. I have always been pro-darkside. You KNOW the good guy is going to win and that's where you find the core, strength, unity, perseverence but you need GRIT. I don't like fairy tales where there is no contrast. But I am more interested in what makes up the bad guys. How you can see there road to power and madness and how realistic the progression and development is. I especially like Asmo for this. He is evil for purely tangible greedy reasons. He wanted to live forever because he feared death and wanted to pursue his passion. Demandred is awesome for his pure cold hate of his better. like the evil little brother story. Always trying to be the better but never getting there. I like Lanfear for the twisted love/lust for power angle. OOOOOOOOO, and Graendal. THERE is an evil one. Her core was simple domination. Domination of all things. Domination and control. Ishy is just crazy and that's always fun. the rest was just filler and fluff. Moghedien annoyed me.

 

There you go. You.Are.Not.Alone.

In fact if you check out other peoples' opinion some don't like Mat for the same reason you do. They think that he is too lucky and everything comes easily to him. One person even said that she wishes he was left out of the book altogether.

I think I'm in the minority for liking Cadsuane. Not many do.

[suchmadness]

Personally I think the Forsaken are static in character development. They're too indulgent as in they indulged their base desires so much they don't know how to be anything else.When you have a lot of power it's too easy to give in to temptation as in absolute power corrupt absolutely.

 

I'm more interested in people who resist despite being offered more. I find these people to be possessing of more grit than anything else.They could've taken more but chose not to.That's true grit.

 

I think I've already chosen my faction by that statement!

[suchmadness]

I find it quite interesting that you chose to see the forsaken as adorable.

[EmperorAllspice]

Mostly Mogheiden and Aginor. Because they're so useless after a point.

 

It's a trope. If you frequent the site TV Tropes then you might recognize it

 

Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain: "A Villain who fails so often that you feel sorry for them."

 

They are such abject failures that I can't enjoy seeing them lose. They're just sad. I wanna give them a hug and tell them everything is gonna be alright. Humans are known for siding with underdogs. The Forsaken honestly feel like underdogs most of the time. So I'm more likely to root for them. I was about to punch the air in triumph when Moggy was set to balefire Nynaeve. And I cried out in anguish when PIGEONS made her miss.

[suchmadness]

hmmm...you're a sly one aren't you?