Who is the man juggling fire in Min's viewing about Thom?

[herid]

Way back in tEoTW, ch 15 Min had this viewing about Thom

The strongest images around the gleeman are a man—not him—juggling fire, and the White Tower, and that doesn’t make any sense at all for a man.

The series is almost over and this viewing seems as mysterious as ever to me. Frankly, I have no idea what it is about or who the man in question is. I don't think it's any of the men present at the time of the viewing (Rand, Mat, Perrin and Lan), else Min would have likely recognized him (she seems to see his face in the veiwing). and I don't think it will be an entirely new character we haven't met yet. It's way too late in the series for that. But other than that I'm drawing a complete blank on this viewing.

 

Any ideas what it's about and who the man in the viewing is?

[Mik]

Way back in tEoTW, ch 15 Min had this viewing about Thom

The strongest images around the gleeman are a man—not him—juggling fire, and the White Tower, and that doesn’t make any sense at all for a man.

The series is almost over and this viewing seems as mysterious as ever to me. Frankly, I have no idea what it is about or who the man in question is. I don't think it's any of the men present at the time of the viewing (Rand, Mat, Perrin and Lan), else Min would have likely recognized him (she seems to see his face in the veiwing). and I don't think it will be an entirely new character we haven't met yet. It's way too late in the series for that. But other than that I'm drawing a complete blank on this viewing.

 

Any ideas what it's about and who the man in the viewing is?

I always imagined it must have been Rand.

 

But that far back in the series, it would have been a dead give-away to make the description more then just 'a man', I guess.

 

If not Rand, then I have no clue to be honest.

[David Selig]

I still think it's Thom's nephew Owyn. I know Jordan said Min's viewings are only about the future, but it was early days yet, he probably wasn't so clear on this as he became later.

[SonOfBattles20]

At first I thought it may have been Asmodean in disguise as a gleeman, but I don't think Thom ever met Natael.

 

It might relate to Oweyn being able to channel the OP and the White Tower gentling him, but I have no idea brodude. I am curious to know now though lol

[shortkut]

I assumed owyn but then min had her power changed to only the future so the vision became info about owyn's death from moraine

[Amandera]

I still think it's Thom's nephew Owyn. I know Jordan said Min's viewings are only about the future, but it was early days yet, he probably wasn't so clear on this as he became later.

I'm going with this, too. It's likely early-bookism.

[hjustinpace]

It's Rand. The parallels to Owyn are to be expected--Thom's entire role in the story comes about as a reaction to Owyn's death. It leads him to bind himself to Rand's group and get entangled with the White Tower in the worst possible way--Marriage!

[Ian Ohlander]

I think this is definitely an early bookism. The viewing that Min has concerning Lan is similar.

Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

 

This fits the story we later hear concerning Lan's background. During the fall of Malkier, before he is strapped to the back of Bukama and is sent off to escape guarded by 19 more soldiers, this happens:

Al'Akir and his Queen, el'Leanna, had Lan brought to them in his cradle. Into his infant hands they placed the sword of Malkieri kings, the sword he wears today. A weapon made by Aes Sedai during the War of Power, the War of the Shadow that brought down the Age of

Legends. They anointed his head with oil, naming him Dai Shan, a Diademed Battle Lord, and consecrated him as the next King of the Malkieri, and in his name they swore the ancient oath of Malkieri kings and queens.

 

This fits Min's viewing precisely. I doubt Malkier itself, with it's 7 towers, will rise again, Nynaeve's testing notwithstanding. That seemed to have wish fulfillment elements to it. It was created out of her mind and wishes, with elements of reality (or the future event, in the case of Sharina Sedai) mixed into it. The previous tests were very similar in the combining of reality and her own psychological issues (helplessness with Balthamel, abandoning of the TR.)

[Stevros]

I think this may relate to Mat, and the rescue Thom carries out with him.

 

1. Mat is very good at juggling.

2. The rescue certainly ties Thom to the White Tower.

3. Mat has some control over fire with the dragons, a bit like juggling you have some control but it could all go wrong.

4. Juggling fire tends to suggest something risky.

 

Also when RJ was asked about Min's viewings he still maintained they were ALWAYS about the future even after specific questioning regarding TEotW, which is why I think Lan survives to pass on the sword of Malkier to his son.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I think this is definitely an early bookism. The viewing that Min has concerning Lan is similar.

Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

 

This fits the story we later hear concerning Lan's background. During the fall of Malkier, before he is strapped to the back of Bukama and is sent off to escape guarded by 19 more soldiers, this happens:

Al'Akir and his Queen, el'Leanna, had Lan brought to them in his cradle. Into his infant hands they placed the sword of Malkieri kings, the sword he wears today. A weapon made by Aes Sedai during the War of Power, the War of the Shadow that brought down the Age of

Legends. They anointed his head with oil, naming him Dai Shan, a Diademed Battle Lord, and consecrated him as the next King of the Malkieri, and in his name they swore the ancient oath of Malkieri kings and queens.

 

This fits Min's viewing precisely. I doubt Malkier itself, with it's 7 towers, will rise again, Nynaeve's testing notwithstanding. That seemed to have wish fulfillment elements to it. It was created out of her mind and wishes, with elements of reality (or the future event, in the case of Sharina Sedai) mixed into it. The previous tests were very similar in the combining of reality and her own psychological issues (helplessness with Balthamel, abandoning of the TR.)

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 1998

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

SLAYER

Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the seven towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

ROBERT JORDAN

Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

 

[Ian Ohlander]

I think this is definitely an early bookism. The viewing that Min has concerning Lan is similar.

Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

 

This fits the story we later hear concerning Lan's background. During the fall of Malkier, before he is strapped to the back of Bukama and is sent off to escape guarded by 19 more soldiers, this happens:

Al'Akir and his Queen, el'Leanna, had Lan brought to them in his cradle. Into his infant hands they placed the sword of Malkieri kings, the sword he wears today. A weapon made by Aes Sedai during the War of Power, the War of the Shadow that brought down the Age of

Legends. They anointed his head with oil, naming him Dai Shan, a Diademed Battle Lord, and consecrated him as the next King of the Malkieri, and in his name they swore the ancient oath of Malkieri kings and queens.

 

This fits Min's viewing precisely. I doubt Malkier itself, with it's 7 towers, will rise again, Nynaeve's testing notwithstanding. That seemed to have wish fulfillment elements to it. It was created out of her mind and wishes, with elements of reality (or the future event, in the case of Sharina Sedai) mixed into it. The previous tests were very similar in the combining of reality and her own psychological issues (helplessness with Balthamel, abandoning of the TR.)

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 1998

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

SLAYER

Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the seven towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

ROBERT JORDAN

Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

Huh. I did not remember that interview being specific about Lan. I guess I was wrong. I know there are a lot of early bookisms and this seemed like one of them. thanks.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I think this is definitely an early bookism. The viewing that Min has concerning Lan is similar.

Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

 

This fits the story we later hear concerning Lan's background. During the fall of Malkier, before he is strapped to the back of Bukama and is sent off to escape guarded by 19 more soldiers, this happens:

Al'Akir and his Queen, el'Leanna, had Lan brought to them in his cradle. Into his infant hands they placed the sword of Malkieri kings, the sword he wears today. A weapon made by Aes Sedai during the War of Power, the War of the Shadow that brought down the Age of

Legends. They anointed his head with oil, naming him Dai Shan, a Diademed Battle Lord, and consecrated him as the next King of the Malkieri, and in his name they swore the ancient oath of Malkieri kings and queens.

 

This fits Min's viewing precisely. I doubt Malkier itself, with it's 7 towers, will rise again, Nynaeve's testing notwithstanding. That seemed to have wish fulfillment elements to it. It was created out of her mind and wishes, with elements of reality (or the future event, in the case of Sharina Sedai) mixed into it. The previous tests were very similar in the combining of reality and her own psychological issues (helplessness with Balthamel, abandoning of the TR.)

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 1998

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

SLAYER

Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the seven towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

ROBERT JORDAN

Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

Huh. I did not remember that interview being specific about Lan. I guess I was wrong. I know there are a lot of early bookisms and this seemed like one of them. thanks.

To be honest, I always thought it was an early bookism too. Came across this quote recently.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Are we positive that Owyn is dead? I know that he was gentled, but isn't it possible he was one of the rare people, like Setalla, that overcame the want to die after being severed from the source. In which case, it could be that now that once the Tower realizes, saidin is clean and that stilling can be healed and that by culling out men who can channel they've been culling the ability to channel itself out of people. There might be a chance of gentled men being healed of their stilling, and the black and white towers joining together to teach men how to channel. If I'm not mistaken, creating orbs of fire and juggling them is a thing they teach novices at the white tower to do isn't it?

[Ian Ohlander]

I suppose that is possible. But it seems so "happily ever after". That's the reason I find the idea about the restoration of Malkier unrealistic too. Eggs are broken. Can't put things back together the way they were and you just have to accept the reality that is now. But if that's what RJ intended (with his interview answer) then that's what's gonna happen.

[The Fisher King]

Ian - I said this elsewhere, but your post in sutt's thread was AWESOME and very reminiscent of my own.

 

As to the question at hand, I see the most likely asnwers:

 

Rand - 10%

Owyn - 10%

Mat - 30%

Eye Of the World ISM - 50%

 

 

Fish

[Scott Bishop]

Logain

[Iroquois Pliskin]

I suppose that is possible. But it seems so "happily ever after". That's the reason I find the idea about the restoration of Malkier unrealistic too. Eggs are broken. Can't put things back together the way they were and you just have to accept the reality that is now. But if that's what RJ intended (with his interview answer) then that's what's gonna happen.

 

I kind of agree, but then I think it make sense in the context of Thom and Moraine being married. I doubt they'll be able to have children, and I can see him becoming sort of their surrogate child.

[herid]

Thanks for all who responded thus far. First, I would really like to move on from Owyn. It's not him. Firstly, he is definitely dead.

 

 

Thom knocked his chair over standing up, then had to hold on to the table because his knees were shaking. Owyn had not lived long after being gentled, driven from his home by supposed friends who could not bear to let even a man who could no longer channel live among them. Nothing Thom did could stop Owyn not wanting to live, or stop his young wife from following him to the grave inside the month.

-TSR, ch 17

 

Secondly, RJ's quote that Xo Meltdown oX gave makes it very clear that Min's visions are about the future. RJ said the same thing on a number of other occasions. Moreover, the particular quote Xo Meltdown oX gave refers to the very same vision (just a different part of it) that we are discussing. So it's not an early bookism either.

It's clear from that quote that RJ had something specific in mind and it will resolve correctly somehow. Same with the Lan vision. Lastly, the vision speaks of a man juggling the White Tower. Owyn doesn't fit that part in any way shape or form even if you believe that that particular vision was about the past.

 

Rand. he looks like the most natural suspect but Min should have recognized him in the vision IMO. Same with Mat.

Logain. Might be a possibility but there is zero connection between him and Thom so far as we know. And it should definitely be somebody closely tied to Thom.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Thanks for all who responded thus far. First, I would really like to move on from Owyn. It's not him. Firstly, he is definitely dead.

 

 

Thom knocked his chair over standing up, then had to hold on to the table because his knees were shaking. Owyn had not lived long after being gentled, driven from his home by supposed friends who could not bear to let even a man who could no longer channel live among them. Nothing Thom did could stop Owyn not wanting to live, or stop his young wife from following him to the grave inside the month.

-TSR, ch 17

 

Secondly, RJ's quote that Xo Meltdown Xo gave makes it very clear that Min's visions are about the future. RJ said the same thing on a number of other occasions. Moreover, the particular quote Xo Meltdown Xo gave refers to the very same vision (just a different part of it) that we are discussing. So it's not an early bookism either.

It's clear from that quote that RJ had something specific in mind and it will resolve correctly somehow. Same with the Lan vision. Lastly, the vision speaks of a man juggling the White Tower. Owyn doesn't fit that part in any way shape or form even if you believe that that particular vision was about the past.

 

Rand. he looks like the most natural suspect but Min should have recognized him in the vision IMO. Same with Mat.

Logain. Might be a possibility but there is zero connection between him and Thom so far as we know. And it should definitely be somebody closely tied to Thom.

 

I'm not trying to create a wacky theory, I'm just saying that that passage doesn't explicitly state that Thom saw Owyn die. It suggests that Owyn died, and a month later his wife died too. Most people who kill themselves don't do it in their own home/village in WoT. So I'm assuming that he just disappeared and was never heard from again. Similar to how Setalle is burned out, and disappears everyone just assumes she's dead because that's what people do when they get severed.

 

And even if that's not the case, going back on my last comment, it could be the case that the vision is from after the future joining of the White and Black Towers, and a son of Thom being taught at the White tower. But anybodies guess is just as good.

[Stevros]

Thanks for all who responded thus far. First, I would really like to move on from Owyn. It's not him. Firstly, he is definitely dead.

 

 

Thom knocked his chair over standing up, then had to hold on to the table because his knees were shaking. Owyn had not lived long after being gentled, driven from his home by supposed friends who could not bear to let even a man who could no longer channel live among them. Nothing Thom did could stop Owyn not wanting to live, or stop his young wife from following him to the grave inside the month.

-TSR, ch 17

 

Secondly, RJ's quote that Xo Meltdown oX gave makes it very clear that Min's visions are about the future. RJ said the same thing on a number of other occasions. Moreover, the particular quote Xo Meltdown oX gave refers to the very same vision (just a different part of it) that we are discussing. So it's not an early bookism either.

It's clear from that quote that RJ had something specific in mind and it will resolve correctly somehow. Same with the Lan vision. Lastly, the vision speaks of a man juggling the White Tower. Owyn doesn't fit that part in any way shape or form even if you believe that that particular vision was about the past.

 

Rand. he looks like the most natural suspect but Min should have recognized him in the vision IMO. Same with Mat.

Logain. Might be a possibility but there is zero connection between him and Thom so far as we know. And it should definitely be somebody closely tied to Thom.

 

I might be wrong, but I'm not sure that we can ignore people Min knows, just because she says she knows its not Thom doesn't mean she saw the man well enough that if she had met him she would recognise him.

 

I do think Logain shouldn't be discounted if only because something as important as the white tower could be a source for some glory. (Plus with him being a previously gentled man he has more of a connection to Thom than Rand did at the start of the series, so I think if they meet they may well be at a disposition to help each other.)

[Ian Ohlander]

It's clear from that quote that RJ had something specific in mind and it will resolve correctly somehow. Same with the Lan vision.

I agree that that RJ's comment is the clincher about early bookisms and that he did have specific things in mind. I just disliked the "happily ever after" aspect of Lan's (and maybe Tom's) vision. I know it doesn't have to be viewed as happily ever after. But even then, seems like a consistent theme of the series is that things are shattered and rebuilt but never the same way. Even the ages differ slightly each turning of the wheel. But I'll wait and see what he clearly had in mind.

 

Lastly, the vision speaks of a man juggling the White Tower.

 

The quote is:

A man — not him — juggling fire, and the White Tower.

 

This doesn't mean he's juggling fire and the white tower- as if he's doing both of them. Rather, she sees a man juggling fire and she sees the WT, That comma sets off a separate clause. So a man juggling fire and something about the WT are in his future, In that sense, then one could see it reffering to Mat and to Moirane. Or it could be something else. Maybe Owyn was a red herring when it wasn't clear that the visions were about the future.

 

Ian - I said this elsewhere, but your post in sutt's thread was AWESOME and very reminiscent of my own.

 

Thanks. I appreciate that. While I'm new here, I'm not new to WOT (life happens and you no longer have as much time for online forums). Are you referring to the RJ would have finished it 2 comments? Or the sidestep into Egwene bashing from a few weeks ago in the prologue thread? Cause I thoroughly enjoyed both.

[Green Bay Ajah]

Created an account because Min's viewings in this thread made me think of something. RJ has been quoted saying Min's viewings are always about the future. As with the 7 towers and baby viewing with Lan, do you think her viewings could be a viewing of someone else's future viewing (Nyn's Accepted Viewings). We know her viewings always come true, but are they linear? Like if she had a viewing of Egwene getting behead say in EotW and it's just a viewing of Eg's having a dream of her getting beheaded. It would mean her viewing comes true it's just not IRL. I'm not sure if that has been discussed but this thread got me thinking. Thx

[Mik]

Now that I just can't let the thought go..(thanks herid... lol) I came back to this thread to suggest Mat.

But he has already been suggested, with decent arguments.

 

I was really surprised by the Logain suggestion up here, and even though I don't think Logain fits as well as Rand or Mat does, I guess RJ could make it work if written well.

I just don't see it happening, even though I'd still like to applaud the suggestion!

 

Stevros suggested a link of Mat & Thom to the White Tower through the rescue of Moiraine, but when I thought of Mat, I thought of the rescue of the Aes Sedai from Ebou Dar.

I still feel Rand fits best of all those three, but both Mat and Logain could work I guess.

 

A bookism is out of the question imo; RJ knew up front where these books were going and Min has a simple ability to 'invent' and a very clear role in the books.

[herid]

@School the quote does pretty clearly say that Thom was there when Owyn died. I don't see how it can be read any other way. Thom's future son might be an option but that would be a real bummer IMO. I really doubt that this is the meaning though. It's not like the vision about Lan that likely means his future son. Once Lan becomes the King of Malkier we as readers can see where things are going without them happening on screen. If the vision about Thom is about his future son then its meaning has to be explained much better. why juggling fire and the White Tower? Juggling implies manipulation. How can we know about it without seeing it on screen?

 

@Stevros I didn't discount Logain. but so far there has been absolutely no connection established between him and Thom.

 

as far as the faces that Min sees in the visions. when they are blurry she says so explicitly. and she is likely viewing the man from the front or from the side, not from the back. Viewing him from the back would be very odd, especially given that she sees what he juggles and can tell that it's not Thom.

None of this is definitive but it is suggestive IMO. that's why I have doubts about Rand and Mat even though they would be the best suspects IMO.

[The Fisher King]

DUDE...Logain IS Owyn!!!

 

DOOD!!!! - ALL the clues have been there staring us in the face the WHOLE TIME!!!

 

 

Fish