[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out*

[FarShainMael]

Here's the quote:

 

He swung the looking glass to the far side of the river, crossing a long narrow rowboat with dark men at the oars, racing toward the ship.

 

There was something of a commotion on one of Aringill's long docks, nearly the twins of Maerone's. White-collared red coats and burnished breastplates picked out Queen's Guardsmen; plainly meeting a knot of arrivals from the ship. What made Mat whistle softly was the pair of fringed red parasols among the newcomers, one of two tiers. Sometimes those old memories came in handy; that two-tiered parasol marked a clan Wavemistress, the other her Swordmaster.

...

The whole ting made no sense. Sea Folk 900 miles fronm the sea. Only he Mistress of the Ships outranked a Wavemistress; only the Master of the Blades outranked a Swordmaster. No sense at all, not ny any of tjhose other men's memories/. But they were old..

 

Does this constitute an 'on-screen' appearance? Hmm. Tricky.

[Gabriel Kross]

I'd say it does because the way it reads is he clearly marked 2 people. I think it would have been a bit more vague otherwise. I do believe the Sea Folk being gathered is because of Demandred, but Amel wasn't all that powerful at the time, It had to be someone of higher rank in the Sea Folk, if Demandred was posing as one of them.

[Gabriel Kross]

I was talking about sending someone to shore posing as wavemistress and swordmaster.

[Bromo Sapien]

I would actually say that doesn't constitute "on-screen". Mat never mentions a person in there, only a group of newcomers and parasols above. They easily could have been hidden behind other Sea Folk. And if Demandred has the forethought to not set himself up directly as leader, he has the forethought to plan a few steps ahead, knowing that he could kill Nesta and manipulate/threaten the Wavemistresses to attain his position.

 

If one of the Chosen himself came to Zaida and told her to let him impersonate her husband, she would completely do that, no matter Sea Folk pride, especially if Dem didn't kill the original Amel but is using him as leverage.

 

All in all, there are a few issues, but I like it the most out of any theory out there. The Rhoedran theory always seemed more a measure of last resort than a legitimate, plausible option to me.

[herid]

an interesting theory, Mik. much better than many others I've seen like the Timolan one.

Hey herid. Thanks!

 

A few problems I see with it.

 

RJ and BS said that Demandred's alter ego has never been seen on screen before TGS. Mat saw Zaida's swordmaster through his looking glass, however briefly.

Nope. Mat sees the two tiered parasols and knows -from his memories- that must mean that a Wavemistress and her Swordmaster are present. He doesn't "see" the person; he sees something that tells him the person must be there, by knowing the Sea Folk protocols. So no, Amel wasn't 'on screen', but we know he was there. :)

 

 

Mat doesn't just see parasols. The way I read it, he sees people. He even sees the white-collared red coats on the guardsmen. That's a pretty fine clothing detail.

 

There was something of a commotion on one of Aringill’s long docks, nearly the twins of Maerone’s. White-collared red coats and burnished breastplates denoted Queen’s Guardsmen, plainly meeting a knot of arrivals from the ship. What made Mat whistle softly was the pair of fringed red parasols among the newcomers, one of two tiers.

 

In any case, even if it was just the parasols, I have a very hard time seeing RJ making such an unqualified statement about Demandred not being seen on screen. BS might have but RJ was not in the habit of giving such Aes Sedai answers.

 

A few other things.

• You make a lot out of Mat's surprise at seeing the Seafolk on Alguenya. But at that point the Seafolk were looking for their Caramoor (Rand) and it was the reason Zaida traveled to Caemlyn. Mat didn't know anything about that so his surprise was quite natural.
  
• Next, the Seafolk ships in Ebu Dar and Tylin's confusion about it. A that point Nesta is still in charge and she is in Ebu Dar herself. Neither Zaida nor her swordmaster could have anything to do with that. These were still the Seafolk looking for Rand. Same goes for the Seafolk Balwer and Niall discuss in LoC, ch 9.
  
• I believe right now just about all the Seafolk ships are in Bandar Eban or close by, not in the south or anywhere else. They were sent there after the meeting with Logain to deliver food and got stuck because they couldn't unload. Zaida says in that scene that the entire Seafolk fleet would be needed for that task and this is not something she could have lied about in public. In that very same scene Zaida also wanted to send a lot of ships to various Amayar islands, the last place Demandred would want to send any troops.
  
• Also, I think to make your theory really work Zaida has to be a DF for sure or else Demandred is complelling her. No Seafolk woman would stand for her husband ordering her in private about her public work. And she is still formally in charge. It's not war yet and she is making the decisions, not the master of the blades. That's very clear in the scene with Logain.
  
• The fact that Zaida and co refused to stay in the Palace in Caemlyn is very interesting however. I never thought of that and it's hard to think of an innocent explanation for this. The Sea Folk are sticklers for ceremony and Harine was more than happy to stay in Aleis's palace while in Far Madding. Perhaps Zaida didn't want to look like a supplicant - she had a bargain to make after all.
  

Lastly, there are a couple of quotes about Demandred that I view as clues to his location that don't mesh with him being Amel.

 

A bright vertical line appeared in the air, then widened as the gateway turned sideways to open long enough for Demandred to step through, giving them each a small bow. He was all in dark gray today, with a little pale lace at his neck. He adapted easily to the fashions and fabrics of this Age.

-LoC, Prologue

So Demandred easily adapts to local fashions and he is wearing lace on that day. There is another remark in KoD pointing in the same direction

 

Demandred's hook-nosed face carried an expression of anger that only made him more striking. Not enough to attract her, of course. He was far too dangerous for that. That well-fitted coat of bronze silk, with falls of snowy lace at neck and wrists, suited him, however. Mesaana also wore the style of this Age, a darker, pattern-embroidered bronze.

-KoD, Ch 3

This is nothing at all like what the Seafolk men wear, especially those of rank.

[Suttree]

]I'm sure -as with most comments by RJ or BS that are very much plot related- I can think of a way around that, Aes Sedai style. Drop that quote in this thread, and I'll tear it apart for you. Just like I love to do with those quotes regarding Taim. The Devil is in the Details, Sut. It's a simple as that! :)

 

Here you go...

 

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Loialson

 

Does Demandred even have an alter ego?

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

Yes, he does.

Loialson

 

Okay, cause we've been trying to figure out who the heck is it, and we can't figure it out. We're thinking Roedran, but it's like, too obvious.

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing: Robert Jordan said that Demandred did not appear until Knife of Dreams, and so I have been very hesitant about saying whether or not he'd appeared—I think I've said whether or not he'd appeared on screen in my books—but the reason is, if I give you a yes or no—if he's appeared, yes or no—then that narrows it down to like just a few characters, that are introduced in mine, so I've been very hesitant about answering that. Demandred does have an alter ego. He has been up to some very cool things. There are people online who have guessed correctly. And so, I will say that much.

 

Again I have never seen Amel or the Sea Folk mentioned, I highly doubt someone who spends considerably less time on the sites would have either.

[Sid]

I have to give you credit, Mik, for coming up with this idea. You'd give Almurat Mor a run for his money as far as knitting moonbeams and happenstance into a noose for someone's neck. Without comments from the author(s) to consider he might be a decent candidate. Demandred wearing lace sounds very much Lugarder and not at all Sea Folk fashion-wise, and the facts that he might have been seen onscreen on the docks, and that we don't know enough about the Sea Folk from LoC to really make the inferences you make throughout your write-up still have me leaning firmly towards Roedran.

 

Big time points for effort and research, though.

 

I'm not going to say straight out that Demandred can't have any involvement with the Sea Folk or this Master of the Blades, or that Murandy is the only thing he's been up to either. He could be and very likely is juggling a lot of different things.

[herid]

 

Again I have never seen Amel or the Sea Folk mentioned, I highly doubt someone who spends considerably less time on the sites would have either.

To be completely fair BS mistakenly thought that Paitar was a popular online candidate for Demandred. Paitar was mentioned sometimes even here but mostly by noobs as he can be easily ruled out because of the on screen appearances in tPOD and WH.

But I did a google search for Amel and Demandred and there is not a single hit suggesting that anybody ever thought of that one before. This is definitely a new theory.

[Suttree]

Again I have never seen Amel or the Sea Folk mentioned, I highly doubt someone who spends considerably less time on the sites would have either.

To be completely fair BS mistakenly thought that Paitar was a popular online candidate for Demandred. Paitar was mentioned sometimes even here but mostly by noobs as he can be easily ruled out because of the on screen appearances in tPOD and WH.

But I did a google search for Amel and Demandred and there is not a single hit suggesting that anybody ever thought of that one before. This is definitely a new theory.

 

I actually used to be surprised at how often Paitar used to pop up here and at TL as a candidate back in the day...

[ta'maral'ailen]

I rather like this theory! My compliments for noticing the probability. In my haste I just ruled out all the Sea folk, but now I think Demandred could be Amel just as much as he could be Timolan. What I like about this theory is how subtle the clues are (if Demandred actually is Amel) and the amount of chaos the Sea Folk would be capable of causing. They could make it difficult for Rand to make peace with the Seanchan, just by attacking them. They could indeed decide to capture Tear and Illian (and Bandar Eban), furthermore Cairhien and Caemlyn can both be reached by river, as evidenced in the series earlier on. The Sea Folk could even get to Maradon and Tar Valon, so yes, they would be capable of causing quite some trouble. However, as I started the Timolan-theory I still am solidly behind that one. But still, I like your theory and I salute you for it!

[What's a Seawolf?]

One of the best theories I've ever read. Many compliments for the great work!

 

To me the Sea Folk have always come across as rather useless. Simply Aes Sedai of the sea, completely unecessary in the story and just fluff. BUT if this theory proves true, it would be an instant 180 in my opinion of the Sea Folk and their inclusion in the story. Of every theory out there about AMOL, this is near the top of things I want to see come true. Easily the best Demandred theory. The pure devastation this would cause, in terms of supplies, trade, relations, and pure damage would actually live up to all the Demandred hype.

 

This part is just some random musings, but if I remember correctly, the mainland and Aiel prophecies all involve negative aspects in some ways, something to cause the citizens to fear the Dragon. Seanchan prophecies have no such thing, I think, but we know(?) they have been corrupted. It seems somewhat odd that the Sea Folk prophecies of the Coramoor are in no way negative, simply saying he will 'lead them to greater glory, including domination of all the seas of the land.' Very out of touch with the non corrupted prophecies. Maybe that hints at something? Where everyone else is worrying about how the Dragon or Car'a'carn will break them and the land, the Sea Folk get off easy with the 'will dominate the seas' part.

 

Plus, with every other major faction besides Aiel having been corrupted by Forsaken in some way, it would be odd to leave the only signifacant (non Seanchan) naval force forsaken free. (The Aiel, by their customs, would seemingly be rather hard to corrupt and rule, plus Sammael at least did have some interaction with the Shaido, if that counts as forsaken interference.) And it makes a nice triumverate with Messana and Semi, White Tower, Seanchan and Sea Folk. Would have been a heck of a hard 1-2-3 punch for the good guys to overcome.

[A Rant Lord]

Kudo´s! If you actually look Amel up on ´www.encyclopaedia-wot.org and search for Amel; all you'd come up with is 1 sentence. While when you search for the master of swords, you'll find a lot more. So that could be evidence for 'apearing on screen'. I like this theory a lot; it fits for a shadow's general, would be a perfect coupe. Let's find out at aMoL!

[yoniy0]

Mik, I have to hand it to you. To even suggest someone new who's a real possibility after all that's been said on the point is really incredible. And as usual, you make it a point to support your hypothesis from multiple sources, so a tip of the hat to you on that, as well.

 

Alas, it would seem that I'm destined to disagree with yet another of your theories. Below is a quick summery of the reasons for that, although I want it clear from the get-go that I see none of that as definitively excluding Amel. It is possible, I just don't think it's the case, and here's why: (BTW, I skimmed the posts made until now, but I might've missed something. Please inform me if I did, and my apologies in advance)

• Firstly, though that could be argued, I don't see the Sea Folk as set to be effective in the upcoming war. They can serve as a distraction, but that's pretty much it. Does that truly justify Demandred's presence?
  
• I find it hard to speculate that Amel has anything to do with the gathering of Sea Folk in southern ports when Zaida was in Caemlyn, or on her way there, as herid already mentioned. If that's the case, that couldn't be what Sammael was referring to, taking away one of the legs upon which this theory rests. Now, naturally Demandred can act independently of his Amel persona, but then what's the point; how does this work to strengthen the theory that he would assume that role?
  
• Semirhage would probably find it hard to influence the battle between Sea Folk and Seanchan in the waters of Ebou Dar when she was on a ship with Tuon at the time. Suroth is a DF, true, but any FS could've used her. What's the added-value of Semirhage's allegiance with Demandred here? Also, if memory serves, Semirhage was AWOL on FS meetings at the time; could she really have done anything to direct Suroth, then?
  
• The Alguenya joins the Erinin near Aringill and Maerone. From there, sailing up stream, one would get to Cairhien, not Caemlyn. Hence the Shipmistress Mat saw has to be Harine, not Zaida. On the up side, Amel was never seen on screen, if I'm right.
  
• Zaida wasn't in touch with Harine until TGS/ToM, so clearly Amel couldn't have kept tabs on Rand by virtue of the bargain. Therefore, Aran'gar's remark about his being appointed to keep an eye on him is difficult to apply to an Amel alter-ego.
  

So, you see, I find the theory rests on too questionable a foundation. However, I still admire it, I have to give you that.

[herid]

good point about the rivers, yoniy0! It's certainly true that following Alguenya they would get to Cairhien, not to Andor. I checked on the map (should have done it earlier of course).

and they were going up Alguenya for sure

With slowly increasing speed the vessel glided upriver, curving toward the marsh-lined mouth of the Alguenya a few miles north of Maerone.

That does mean that Mat saw Harine with Moad and Amel was never on screen. But it also means he was never mentioned prior to KoD, right?

I don't believe Zaida's swordmaster is ever mentioned elsewhere. Is this right? This would disqualify him from being Demandred too.

Yep, I did an idealseek search and Zaida's swordmaster is never mentioned before KoD. So we have no indication that he was with her in Caemlyn. It's not even clear to me that Amel is Zaida's swordmaster.

It's only mentioned that he is her husband. As far as I can tell there is nothing to indicate that he is her swordmaster.

[Cybertrolloc]

The reverse engineering part twinges a bit, otherwise nicely done.

[hypmatt]

Quite like the thought of this one, the sea folk have always seemed useless so this would redeem their badass factor slightly

[Stitched up by a postie]

Some good points about possible corruption of the Sea Folk, Mik. It seems likely that they'd get some serious attention from the Forsaken, though I think their potential as a military force is extremely limited. That, for me, makes it less likely that Demandred is based amongst them. What's a Seawolf? makes an interesting point about the difference between their prophecy and everyone else's, too.

 

Surely there must be something major set to happen that will justify the Sea Folk's appearance in the story and fulfill their prophecy properly, bring Harine to the position of Mistress of the Ships, etc.? Maybe Zaida's exposure as a Darkfriend rather than the Demandred reveal ...

[Mik]

(too many quotes in post, so posting in two sections:)

PART 1

an interesting theory, Mik. much better than many others I've seen like the Timolan one.

Hey herid. Thanks!

 

A few problems I see with it.

 

RJ and BS said that Demandred's alter ego has never been seen on screen before TGS. Mat saw Zaida's swordmaster through his looking glass, however briefly.

Nope. Mat sees the two tiered parasols and knows -from his memories- that must mean that a Wavemistress and her Swordmaster are present. He doesn't "see" the person; he sees something that tells him the person must be there, by knowing the Sea Folk protocols. So no, Amel wasn't 'on screen', but we know he was there. :)

Mat doesn't just see parasols. The way I read it, he sees people. He even sees the white-collared red coats on the guardsmen. That's a pretty fine clothing detail.

 

There was something of a commotion on one of Aringill’s long docks, nearly the twins of Maerone’s. White-collared red coats and burnished breastplates denoted Queen’s Guardsmen, plainly meeting a knot of arrivals from the ship. What made Mat whistle softly was the pair of fringed red parasols among the newcomers, one of two tiers.

I'm not arguing Mat couldn't see the scene well enough through his looking glass, so I think your argument about the level of detail he can see (the guardsmen clothing) is no problem for me. I'm saying Mat never actually got to actually see the Wavemistress and her Swordmaster, for the simple fact that the Sea Folk 'group of people' was described as 'a knot of arrivals' and as 'the Atha’an Miere delegation' after Mat notes the parasols and tells us what that means for the group.

You might be confused about the number of people that are part of that delegation. And I can't give an actual number, but it's not just the Wavemistress and her Swordmaster for sure. What's a decent number of people for a description like a 'knot of arrivals / delegation'? The Wavemistress and her Swordmaster probably set foot on land first and second, but -conveniently for RJ- we're not shown the individuals disembarking from their rowboat. There are atleast a Windfinder and two other Atha’an Miere among the 'knot of arrivals' (Shielyn is Zaida's Windfinder & protocol dictates that 'a Wavemistress can be recognized ... by a two-tiered red parasol, fringed in gold, that her attendants carry). I'm not going to guess the number of people in the group, but it stands to reason that from where Mat is looking (the other side of the river), that the attendants / retinue / parasols simply block the view on the Wavemistress and her Swordmaster who are at the front of the group and who are greeted by the Queens Guardsmen.

 

In any case, even if it was just the parasols, I have a very hard time seeing RJ making such an unqualified statement about Demandred not being seen on screen. BS might have but RJ was not in the habit of giving such Aes Sedai answers.

It's not just the parasols (we don't even know how big they are; they are carried by 'her attendants'; doesn't sound like it's fist-sized ;)). It's also the retinue blocking view.

I guess we find out after AMoL exactly how Aes Sedai-like some of RJ's answers have been; he has the grand finale of his masterpiece to protect for it to blow us all away. He invented Aes Sedai trickery and he's behind nearly (now BS is in the picture too) every one of their carefully, skilled answers. *srugs* Rafo. Regardless Aes Sedai asnwers. This scene doesn't need any. Mat clearly identifies the fact there are a Wavemistress and her Swordmaster in the 'knot of arrivels' by their parasols, and by their parasols only, considering they aren't described in any way shape or form, despite the fact that Mat can see white collars!

 

A few other things.

You make a lot out of Mat's surprise at seeing the Seafolk on Alguenya. But at that point the Seafolk were looking for their Caramoor (Rand) and it was the reason Zaida traveled to Caemlyn. Mat didn't know anything about that so his surprise was quite natural.

This is just part of the whole package, herid. It's one of those things, that -in hindsight- people are going to point to and say 'see.. now Mat's thoughts here are nice foreshadowing of wierd stuff going on'. Zaida didn't travel with her own ship -the soul/ heart of her clan- and she stays on land, she rides horses despite never having done so before. She most probably breaks protocol when offered she and her retinue can stay at the Royal Palace and prefers an Inn?? It's so many little bits and pieces, but it -starts- with Mat thinking how totally wierd it is. Sure.. there are reasons for her trying to contact the Coramoor; it's the 'where and how' that's the surprise...and Mat's thoughts are RJ's ways of sliding that piece of info our way. *shrugs*

 

Next, the Seafolk ships in Ebu Dar and Tylin's confusion about it. A that point Nesta is still in charge and she is in Ebu Dar herself. Neither Zaida nor her swordmaster could have anything to do with that. These were still the Seafolk looking for Rand. Same goes for the Seafolk Balwer and Niall discuss in LoC, ch 9.

We don't know if 'her Swordmaster had anything to do with it'. We know -one- thing though; Nesta hardly did anything there (wait for Nyn / be smallll part in the Bowl of Winds story arc/ Marry Nyn), and then she was killed. And not by local Altaran forces, but by a force, we know for sure was directly influenced by Ishamael and Semirhage. It resulted in Zaida becomming Mistress of the Ships. Sammael seems to think 'events to the South had Demandred written all over him' at a time the Sea Folk ships arrive en masse at several southern ports. I think I can connect those dots.

 

I believe right now just about all the Seafolk ships are in Bandar Eban or close by, not in the south or anywhere else. They were sent there after the meeting with Logain to deliver food and got stuck because they couldn't unload. Zaida says in that scene that the entire Seafolk fleet would be needed for that task and this is not something she could have lied about in public. In that very same scene Zaida also wanted to send a lot of ships to various Amayar islands, the last place Demandred would want to send any troops.

'Just about all'...? Rand is frustrated about the number of Sea Folk ships that arrived at Bandar Eban (TGS chapters 5 & 29), because there are so few there. So sure, there is a Sea Folk force at Bandar Eban, with a valid excuse; the Dragon Reborn asked them to show up! And about Zaida wanting some fast ships send to the islands, because off the mass suicide of the Amayar is the only proper responce and logically, it shakes even her to her very core. It didn't happen though; a few ships were send to Bandar Eban, but the rest (and that's a huge number of ships) are docked all along the southern coast, save Ebou Dar.

 

Also, I think to make your theory really work Zaida has to be a DF for sure or else Demandred is complelling her. No Seafolk woman would stand for her husband ordering her in private about her public work. And she is still formally in charge. It's not war yet and she is making the decisions, not the master of the blades. That's very clear in the scene with Logain.

To make it work, I'm not sure Zaida needs to be a Friend of the Dark, as we saw with Morgase. But I do think it works better and there is a lot pointing in the direction that Zaida is a Darkfriend, both direct (her behaviour, bargains and actions) and indirect (her becomming Mistress of the Ships, Harine's odd drop off at Tear by Verin, and us readers knowing Harine will be Mistress of the Ships at one point in the future), but it would make this theory overly complicated, I was told. :) *pokes Barid Bel Medar*

 

The fact that Zaida and co refused to stay in the Palace in Caemlyn is very interesting however. I never thought of that and it's hard to think of an innocent explanation for this. The Sea Folk are sticklers for ceremony and Harine was more than happy to stay in Aleis's palace while in Far Madding. Perhaps Zaida didn't want to look like a supplicant - she had a bargain to make after all.

Yeah. Totally wierd behaviour if you consider their circumstances and if you know a little about Sea Folk protocol/ customs.

 

Lastly, there are a couple of quotes about Demandred that I view as clues to his location that don't mesh with him being Amel.

 

A bright vertical line appeared in the air, then widened as the gateway turned sideways to open long enough for Demandred to step through, giving them each a small bow. He was all in dark gray today, with a little pale lace at his neck. He adapted easily to the fashions and fabrics of this Age.

-LoC, Prologue

So Demandred easily adapts to local fashions and he is wearing lace on that day. There is another remark in KoD pointing in the same direction

 

Demandred's hook-nosed face carried an expression of anger that only made him more striking. Not enough to attract her, of course. He was far too dangerous for that. That well-fitted coat of bronze silk, with falls of snowy lace at neck and wrists, suited him, however. Mesaana also wore the style of this Age, a darker, pattern-embroidered bronze.

-KoD, Ch 3

This is nothing at all like what the Seafolk men wear, especially those of rank.

Just because not all the clues indicate he's Amel, doesn't mean he isn;t. Did we see Semirhage in her Truthspeaking outfit at meetings? Exactly.

This might indicate Demandred can be found somewhere else as well. Or it could be nothing more then a decoy. *shrugs*

You would rather have read that Demandred showed up bare chested, cleanly shaven, with tattoes on his hand indicating clan and rank? *snickers softly*

 

 

I'm sure -as with most comments by RJ or BS that are very much plot related- I can think of a way around that, Aes Sedai style. Drop that quote in this thread, and I'll tear it apart for you. Just like I love to do with those quotes regarding Taim. The Devil is in the Details, Sut. It's a simple as that! :)

 

Here you go...

 

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Loialson

 

Does Demandred even have an alter ego?

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

Yes, he does.

Loialson

 

Okay, cause we've been trying to figure out who the heck is it, and we can't figure it out. We're thinking Roedran, but it's like, too obvious.

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing: Robert Jordan said that Demandred did not appear until Knife of Dreams, and so I have been very hesitant about saying whether or not he'd appeared—I think I've said whether or not he'd appeared on screen in my books—but the reason is, if I give you a yes or no—if he's appeared, yes or no—then that narrows it down to like just a few characters, that are introduced in mine, so I've been very hesitant about answering that. Demandred does have an alter ego. He has been up to some very cool things. There are people online who have guessed correctly. And so, I will say that much.

 

Again I have never seen Amel or the Sea Folk mentioned, I highly doubt someone who spends considerably less time on the sites would have either.

That, right there, is a problem. Especially because BS said it just a few months ago. And yeah.. I did some searching as well. I do think this theory is new. :/

I dunno Sut. I can't find a decent argument to tear it up (like I think I can with RJ's Taim quotes). A long shot is that BS is referring to just 'some very cool things' Demandred has been up to and that there are people around who guessed those correctly. Meh. I don't like it, but it's all I got and I'm liking the theory too much to let it slide. Good point though, although I'd rather had seen one from the books or RJ himself (no offence to BS, but yeah... RJ was the better (and only true) Aes Sedai)

*shakes fist at Suttree*

 

 

I have to give you credit, Mik, for coming up with this idea. You'd give Almurat Mor a run for his money as far as knitting moonbeams and happenstance into a noose for someone's neck. Without comments from the author(s) to consider he might be a decent candidate.

Big time points for effort and research, though.

Hehe! Thanks! (..I guess... 'knitting moonbeams and happenstance?!?' *sobs in corner*)

[Mik]

PART 2

Demandred wearing lace sounds very much Lugarder and not at all Sea Folk fashion-wise, and the facts that he might have been seen onscreen on the docks, and that we don't know enough about the Sea Folk from LoC to really make the inferences you make throughout your write-up still have me leaning firmly towards Roedran.

 

I'm not going to say straight out that Demandred can't have any involvement with the Sea Folk or this Master of the Blades, or that Murandy is the only thing he's been up to either. He could be and very likely is juggling a lot of different things.

Just because not all -what can be considered as- hints point in the same direction, doesn't make my theory wrong. Like I told herid; would have been like a humungus flaming arrow pointing to the Sea Folk if Demandred was to show up 'bare chested and with tattooed hands', right? IN relation to this theory, Demandreds clothing could be either referring to meddling elsewhere as well, or (dare I say it?) a red herring.

　

I rather like this theory! My compliments for noticing the probability. In my haste I just ruled out all the Sea folk, but now I think Demandred could be Amel just as much as he could be Timolan. What I like about this theory is how subtle the clues are (if Demandred actually is Amel) and the amount of chaos the Sea Folk would be capable of causing. They could make it difficult for Rand to make peace with the Seanchan, just by attacking them. They could indeed decide to capture Tear and Illian (and Bandar Eban), furthermore Cairhien and Caemlyn can both be reached by river, as evidenced in the series earlier on. The Sea Folk could even get to Maradon and Tar Valon, so yes, they would be capable of causing quite some trouble. However, as I started the Timolan-theory I still am solidly behind that one. But still, I like your theory and I salute you for it!

Haha! Great! It was your theory, Terez snide comments there, me poking at Barid with his 'Demandred love' that actually sparked my interest to give this a shot myself. Funny how things go, eh?

*salutes Dutchy style!* ;)

 

 

　

One of the best theories I've ever read. Many compliments for the great work!

 

To me the Sea Folk have always come across as rather useless. Simply Aes Sedai of the sea, completely unecessary in the story and just fluff. BUT if this theory proves true, it would be an instant 180 in my opinion of the Sea Folk and their inclusion in the story. Of every theory out there about AMOL, this is near the top of things I want to see come true. Easily the best Demandred theory. The pure devastation this would cause, in terms of supplies, trade, relations, and pure damage would actually live up to all the Demandred hype.

Haha. Glad to be of service! I live but to serve and obey.. (the Shadow within)

 

This part is just some random musings, but if I remember correctly, the mainland and Aiel prophecies all involve negative aspects in some ways, something to cause the citizens to fear the Dragon. Seanchan prophecies have no such thing, I think, but we know(?) they have been corrupted. It seems somewhat odd that the Sea Folk prophecies of the Coramoor are in no way negative, simply saying he will 'lead them to greater glory, including domination of all the seas of the land.' Very out of touch with the non corrupted prophecies. Maybe that hints at something? Where everyone else is worrying about how the Dragon or Car'a'carn will break them and the land, the Sea Folk get off easy with the 'will dominate the seas' part.

 

Plus, with every other major faction besides Aiel having been corrupted by Forsaken in some way, it would be odd to leave the only signifacant (non Seanchan) naval force forsaken free. (The Aiel, by their customs, would seemingly be rather hard to corrupt and rule, plus Sammael at least did have some interaction with the Shaido, if that counts as forsaken interference.) And it makes a nice triumverate with Messana and Semi, White Tower, Seanchan and Sea Folk. Would have been a heck of a hard 1-2-3 punch for the good guys to overcome.

I think we don't know enough about the Jendai prophecies at this point. I think we'll learn a little more about those prophecies during AMoL, when -or right before- the proverbial cat comes out of the bag. Agreed on the Forsaken corrupting the different parts / factions in the story and how odd it is to leave the Sea Folk out of that.

 

 

　

Mik, I have to hand it to you. To even suggest someone new who's a real possibility after all that's been said on the point is really incredible. And as usual, you make it a point to support your hypothesis from multiple sources, so a tip of the hat to you on that, as well.

Thanks yon. :)

*spreads hands and bows low*

*murmers something incomprehensible about his last breath and you think you hear the words "Taim", "Moridin/ Shairdar Haran" and "the Dragon Soul"*

 

Alas, it would seem that I'm destined to disagree with yet another of your theories.

Sometimes, the Wheel weaves a Pattern within the Pattern. You and I disagreeing on the Warp I envision is one of the patterns, I guess. It makes these forums a fun place because of that. *whips our sword*

En garde, yon!

 

Below is a quick summery of the reasons for that, although I want it clear from the get-go that I see none of that as definitively excluding Amel. It is possible, I just don't think it's the case, and here's why: (BTW, I skimmed the posts made until now, but I might've missed something. Please inform me if I did, and my apologies in advance)

Firstly, though that could be argued, I don't see the Sea Folk as set to be effective in the upcoming war. They can serve as a distraction, but that's pretty much it. Does that truly justify Demandred's presence?

Hrmmm. I think you mistake just how big a punch the Sea Folk packs. Especially now that most forces are gathering somewhere else and that everyone -just like most readers up untill this theory, I guess- expects most of the fighting somewhere else. When the Sea Folk stop with supplying and instead start attacking, you'll see shit hit the fan, I think. Their ships are fast, floating supplies. They have pieces of land for easy Traveling and who knows what they have been doing there since the Bargain was struck. They have thousands of ships, carrying hundreds of men and women who know fighting. They have the sea equivalent of Aes Sedai and we've seen them go toe to toe with the Seanchan several times.

 

Even IF they are nothing more then 'a temporal distraction' -wich I find downplaying their potential to be honest- they are very much worth the effort.

 

I find it hard to speculate that Amel has anything to do with the gathering of Sea Folk in southern ports when Zaida was in Caemlyn, or on her way there, as herid already mentioned. If that's the case, that couldn't be what Sammael was referring to, taking away one of the legs upon which this theory rests. Now, naturally Demandred can act independently of his Amel persona, but then what's the point; how does this work to strengthen the theory that he would assume that role?

Ishamael had a Sea Folk man (probably Harine's Swordmaster Moad) attend his 'Darkfriend Social' as far back as TGH! We know how Bors got treated.. why would we assume any less for the Sea Folk man? Ishamael, and according to my theory, some time later Demandred had a big hand in Sea Folk actions and movement. I laid out my theory. If you won't have it, fine. What you find hard speculation, I call sound reasoning. We've been there before. It's ok. We have only a few months left anyway. RAFO!

 

Semirhage would probably find it hard to influence the battle between Sea Folk and Seanchan in the waters of Ebou Dar when she was on a ship with Tuon at the time. Suroth is a DF, true, but any FS could've used her. What's the added-value of Semirhage's allegiance with Demandred here? Also, if memory serves, Semirhage was AWOL on FS meetings at the time; could she really have done anything to direct Suroth, then?

Again, I think Suroth is also inlfuenced directly by Ishamael. Maybe you should re-read the influence the other Forsaken like Rahvin and Sammael had. They made that influence happen in just a few weeks or a few months tops. *shrugs*

 

The Alguenya joins the Erinin near Aringill and Maerone. From there, sailing up stream, one would get to Cairhien, not Caemlyn. Hence the Shipmistress Mat saw has to be Harine, not Zaida. On the up side, Amel was never seen on screen, if I'm right.

This is all wrong, yon. Zaida and company leave the White Spray. It's a Clan Shodein ship that brings Harine to Cairhien (and yes, I agree that is wierd in and by itself that Zaida left her most important family behind; her ship (and her crew) and her clan behind). As soon as the rowboat returns from dropping off Zaida and Co., Harine sails the White Spray to Cairhien and Zaida travels by horse (lol) to Caemlyn. And you're right that Amel wasn't on screen, but you're right for all the wrong reasons. ;)

 

Zaida wasn't in touch with Harine until TGS/ToM, so clearly Amel couldn't have kept tabs on Rand by virtue of the bargain. Therefore, Aran'gar's remark about his being appointed to keep an eye on him is difficult to apply to an Amel alter-ego.

As FanoLan noted, we see Demandred checking out the Royal Palace in tar a few chapters after Zaida and her retinue arrive in Caemlyn. I never said that Amel 'kept tabs on Rand by virtue of the Bargain'. That's kind of a nice strawman argument to tear down easily. I never said anything about Demandred keeping tabs. Doesn't mean that Demandred can't from where he's operating. *shrugs*

 

So, you see, I find the theory rests on too questionable a foundation. However, I still admire it, I have to give you that.

I disagree completely that it rests on a questionable foundation. The only one who put a dent in my confidence so far has been Suttree. And -granted-, it's a big dent. But it's not something that has to do with anything related to the theory nor something from the books themselves. That BS quote sucks though. (thanks Suttree! *shakes fist*)

 

　

good point about the rivers, yoniy0! It's certainly true that following Alguenya they would get to Cairhien, not to Andor. I checked on the map (should have done it earlier of course).

and they were going up Alguenya for sure

With slowly increasing speed the vessel glided upriver, curving toward the marsh-lined mouth of the Alguenya a few miles north of Maerone.

That does mean that Mat saw Harine with Moad and Amel was never on screen. But it also means he was never mentioned prior to KoD, right?

I don't believe Zaida's swordmaster is ever mentioned elsewhere. Is this right? This would disqualify him from being Demandred too.

Yep, I did an idealseek search and Zaida's swordmaster is never mentioned before KoD. So we have no indication that he was with her in Caemlyn. It's not even clear to me that Amel is Zaida's swordmaster.

It's only mentioned that he is her husband. As far as I can tell there is nothing to indicate that he is her swordmaster.

Like I told yon; you are wrong here. Zaida disembarked from the White Spray at Aringill (where Mat was watching from the other side; Maerone) and it sailed on to drop anchor at Cairhien where Harine and her crew are staying.

 

 

　

The reverse engineering part twinges a bit, otherwise nicely done.

Hey. Just saying how I did it. It works for me. *shrugs*

Thanks!

[kght22]

accurate or not, i still must give mik a +over 9000 on this theory, it is awesome. i don't know if it is right, for me, it works just as well as any good theory i have seen so far. just makes me anticipate amol that much more.

 

 

EDIT: oh yeah, what a fighter, he is trying to go toe to toe when he has time to post lol.

EDIT2: btw if he is playing a woman's husband, he is likely using mask of mirrors to pull it off, so what he is wearing as demandred doesn't count for much. there are much better arguments here, but what he is wearing is a "meh" argument

[Barid Bel Medar]

Even putting aside Demandred's involvement, I think that it has uncovered Zaida as a likely suspect to be a Darkfriend. So just for that, it is good. I doubt it will be Demandred, due to quotes by RJ and Brandon, but I would have liked for it to be so, it makes sense and would be a great twist.

[yoniy0]

Zaida wasn't in touch with Harine until TGS/ToM, so clearly Amel couldn't have kept tabs on Rand by virtue of the bargain. Therefore, Aran'gar's remark about his being appointed to keep an eye on him is difficult to apply to an Amel alter-ego.

As FanoLan noted, we see Demandred checking out the Royal Palace in tar a few chapters after Zaida and her retinue arrive in Caemlyn. I never said that Amel 'kept tabs on Rand by virtue of the Bargain'. That's kind of a nice strawman argument to tear down easily. I never said anything about Demandred keeping tabs. Doesn't mean that Demandred can't from where he's operating. *shrugs*

You didn't say so, FanoLan did; I simply found it prudent to comment on every argument made in support of your case instead of leaving holes in mine. I'm sorry if that gave you the impression I was putting words in your mouth.

[Swithin]

I promise to read all the posts in this thread tomorrow, the opening post was extraordinarily well laid out, but I'm too tired to do it right now. I just had to point out that there's a strong piece of supporting evidence I didn't notice being discussed: when Rand asked the Aelfinn how to win at TG (and survive), the slightly cryptic answer was "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die." One can assume that they are answering his conditions in order, in other words "the two must be as one" bit refers only to winning the Last Battle and is indifferent to Rand's survival.

 

It's possible to read this as a general call for unity, I guess, but it could also describe TG as a war with two fronts, and the Light-side forces needing to cluster up into two military/administrative units. The Blight / Shayol Ghul is one obvious theater, but if that were the only place fighting were to happen why the need for the N/E and S/W division? I always guessed it was a concession to the Seanchan to get them on board, however if Demandred pulls off Randland's greatest envelopment with armadas of Sea Folk ships dropping off armies on the southern coast, it suddenly makes perfect sense why you'd need two different military coalitions. Mat seems on a trajectory to lead the Seanchan armies some day, while Perrin has been developing the skills and connections that suggest to me he'll be left in charge up north by Rand - and if you choose to go into it, there's more to mine from "the two must be as one" in the swirling-color connection there as well.

 

So yeah, I like this theory, although I still feel confident that Dem is Roedran (even if it turns out he's also Master of the Blades,) for reasons that have to do with the whole Hinderstap arc in TGS.

[Danjaman]

Great theory, best I've read in a while. Some quick thoughts:

 

Harine din Togara Two Winds –and her (probably darkfriend) Swordmaster Moad- get derailed by Verin (a known darkfriend that didn’t want to blow her cover at that point) by bringing them to Tear, instead of Illian,

Um, Verin being a darkfriend is one of the biggest spoilers in the series IMO. Not that I think there's anyone on the forums now that hasn't read that far, but still - this is general discussion.

 

Plus, with every other major faction besides Aiel having been corrupted by Forsaken in some way, it would be odd to leave the only signifacant (non Seanchan) naval force forsaken free. (The Aiel, by their customs, would seemingly be rather hard to corrupt and rule, plus Sammael at least did have some interaction with the Shaido, if that counts as forsaken interference.) And it makes a nice triumverate with Messana and Semi, White Tower, Seanchan and Sea Folk. Would have been a heck of a hard 1-2-3 punch for the good guys to overcome.

Asmodean painted the dragons on Couladin's arms, so that instigated the Shaido war by proclaiming him as a false Car'a'carn

 

Here you go...

 

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Loialson

 

Does Demandred even have an alter ego?

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

Yes, he does.

Loialson

 

Okay, cause we've been trying to figure out who the heck is it, and we can't figure it out. We're thinking Roedran, but it's like, too obvious.

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing: Robert Jordan said that Demandred did not appear until Knife of Dreams, and so I have been very hesitant about saying whether or not he'd appeared—I think I've said whether or not he'd appeared on screen in my books—but the reason is, if I give you a yes or no—if he's appeared, yes or no—then that narrows it down to like just a few characters, that are introduced in mine, so I've been very hesitant about answering that. Demandred does have an alter ego. He has been up to some very cool things. There are people online who have guessed correctly. And so, I will say that much.

 

Again I have never seen Amel or the Sea Folk mentioned, I highly doubt someone who spends considerably less time on the sites would have either.

That, right there, is a problem. Especially because BS said it just a few months ago. And yeah.. I did some searching as well. I do think this theory is new. :/

I dunno Sut. I can't find a decent argument to tear it up (like I think I can with RJ's Taim quotes). A long shot is that BS is referring to just 'some very cool things' Demandred has been up to and that there are people around who guessed those correctly. Meh. I don't like it, but it's all I got and I'm liking the theory too much to let it slide. Good point though, although I'd rather had seen one from the books or RJ himself (no offence to BS, but yeah... RJ was the better (and only true) Aes Sedai)

*shakes fist at Suttree*

When he says "there are people who have guessed correctly", he means "they have found his identity" but not "they have found every identity". Just becusae Roedred or another theory is correct, doesn't mean this one is incorrect. (How's that for an Aes Sedai answer :D ) I agree with some of the others that he can have more than one hiding place, and more than one army - since Morridin surely does (granted, he's had 3000 years to do it).

 

 

Also, The one Demandred clue that always threw me off was his appearances in the prologue and epilogue of LoC. When he is in SG and asks "Have I not done well, Great Lord?". That, to me, always made me think he did something crazy during LoC (especially since he says that immediately after Dumai's Wells, it's great dramatic effect and I think that's why people clung to Taimandred so long) thought that might be a red herring.

[yoniy0]

Oh, BTW, Mik is right that whoever that Wavemistress has been, she left the ship before it sailed on to Cairhien. Why Zaida would choose to march to Caemlyn from Aringill I don't know, but it seems very unlikely that the one Mat saw was going anywhere else but Caemlyn.