how the Senchean beat the Aial (avienda vision) ???

[MasterAblar]

Master Ablar

 

i use circle becouse Sanchean CANT link (the Adam prevent it).

so even if they be prepared they cant create a strong enough defence to block the power of a circle.

 

since solo channelers cant streangthen the same weave the weave of the circle will simply overwhelm the solo defences

also a circle can allow u to destroy a city in 1 shot preventing or atleast limiting the option the secure away importent leaders or the city channelers.

 

While circles can be an advantage, it isn't always the case. Yes they give a great amount of power, but they also allow only one person to weave. That person must protect everyone in the circle, counter every attack. Everything depends on that person. In some situations that's easier, typically when the enemy are all directly in front of you. But if the enemy is more spread out things get much harder. No matter how much strength the circle grants, the person leading is still human, with one brain, two eyes, and, because we're speaking of Aes Sedai, two hands. A sufficient number of attacks will overhwhelm the leader of the circle.

 

Now having the option of forming a circle is of course an advantage, but nonetheless a circle does not trump everything.

[BFG]

The problem is that you're leaping straight in with them using scorched earth tactics. The evidence that we've been given show that neither side use this. As a warrior based society, you'll have to come up with a lot to convince me that they'd ever use it - using such a tactic would destroy their society as completely as what actually happened. They live by ji e toh, there is no honour in that sort of fight. So without Avis vision, they clearly believed they could win using tactics they already have and entered it the way they would any other.

 

Their's also a leadership vacuum within the Aiel - all their current leaders (Rhuarc, Amys, Bair, Sorilea) aren't shown in the vision, instead they're looking to 20somethings for leadership - not unheard of for Randland, but unusual within the Aiel. This also indicates heavy losses either during TG or the 20 or so years ago, this means that the Aiel that fight the Seanchan aren't as strong as they are now.

 

Plus we don't really know the strength of the Seanchan channelers. Alivia is the strongest female channeler we've seen yet, without an angreal. She's stronger than Lanfear, who was supposed to be as strong as a female channeler could get. We can be pretty sure that she's unique in her strength, but they may have multiple Nyn levels, whereas the good guys now have what 4? (Nyn, Alivia, Talaan (if she's still alive), and possibly a Novice?). Given that Nyn on her own can channel more than a circle of 13 of the strongest AS pre Elayne/Egwene a circle of 13 isn't necesarily going to be as overwhelming as you think. So you add males and expand the circles, so eventually they're strong enough. But the more people you add to the circle, the less mobile it will be, the harder to defend itself and the more channelers you tie up. So while you have all your channelers destroying a city, the Seanchan have travelled to all of your bases and wiped out your virtually undefended strongholds.

 

 

 

The Aiel are never going to attack by sea, so that's vaguely ridiculous. And the easiest way to start a tsunami would be to create an earthquake - but WF are particularly weak in earth and probably not strong enough in water to create that sort of wave - After Siaun was healed she couldn't lift Gareth into the air - clearly before she was stilled she could do so easily, but their's a huge difference between lifting 100's of kilos into the air, and moving that much water, that much distance.

 

 

We know that they don't enter an Alliance against the Seanchan until about 20 years into the war. It's not unreasonable to assume that over that period of time the Seanchan will become stronger - every channeler they capture effectively joins their army. The Seanchan adapt more easily - a race that loses over 1000 spears a day (from 4? of the clans only) because their leader gets captured, to Bleakness is not an adaptable culture. The Aiel are somewhat hampered by their notion of honor, in the same way the AS are somewhat hampered by the 3 oaths.

 

 

But eventually the AS/WO/BT/SF presumably unite against the Seanchan. At which stage you've got 4 groups that don't fully trust each other, have a massive area to defend - which means they have to spread their forces out, which limits the use of your circles anyway, and are all jockeying for control against a focused Seanchan. It's easy to see how the Seanchan won in Avis future.

 

 

I've also recently come across a bit in PoD that states that the Damane do know how to defend themselves and sul'dam and share any and all knowledge with each other. So it's a safe bet that they now have healing, washing away fatigue, as well as the obviously more useful travelling. They also have more experience in power vs. power battles. The only time the WO have really participated in a power battle was at Dumais Wells, the Seanchan have multiple rebellions in Seanchan, as well as the Damona campaign.

 

 

The question is, how do the Aiel react now they have Avis future, and my guess is that they'll put pressure on Rand to help them to avoid the fight in the first place. I still don't see them using scorched earth tactics, but they'll probably get an alliance together earlier - assuming Eg survives, she loathes the Seanchan and knows their capabilities, so could be a good allie.

 

Hopefully though it won't come up. Joline will be bringing up the Seanchan question with the AS, Mat's working on a solution as are some of the former sul'dam, Egeanin, etc. The biggest problem most people have with them is the damane, if they can solve that then they aren't that much worse than any other culture.

[Suttree]

Alivia is the strongest female channeler we've seen yet, without an angreal. She's stronger than Lanfear, who was supposed to be as strong as a female channeler could get.

 

Good post but quick correction here BFG. Alivia was using an angreal when she faced off with Lanfear. She had Nyns jewelry set on. No woman unaided can be as strong as Lanfear.

[MasterAblar]

Alivia is the strongest female channeler we've seen yet, without an angreal. She's stronger than Lanfear, who was supposed to be as strong as a female channeler could get.

 

Good post but quick correction here BFG. Alivia was using an angreal when she faced off with Lanfear. She had Nyns jewelry set on. No woman unaided can be as strong as Lanfear.

 

You mean stronger right?

[Suttree]

Alivia is the strongest female channeler we've seen yet, without an angreal. She's stronger than Lanfear, who was supposed to be as strong as a female channeler could get.

 

Good post but quick correction here BFG. Alivia was using an angreal when she faced off with Lanfear. She had Nyns jewelry set on. No woman unaided can be as strong as Lanfear.

 

You mean stronger right?

 

Correct, sorry if that wasn't clear.

[MasterAblar]

Alivia is the strongest female channeler we've seen yet, without an angreal. She's stronger than Lanfear, who was supposed to be as strong as a female channeler could get.

 

Good post but quick correction here BFG. Alivia was using an angreal when she faced off with Lanfear. She had Nyns jewelry set on. No woman unaided can be as strong as Lanfear.

 

You mean stronger right?

 

Correct, sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

No problem, I was just worried I'd missed something.

[Knivy]

Wasnt Cyn alot weaker than Lanfear? Is it ever know just how much the Finns leached from her?

[Suttree]

Wasnt Cyn alot weaker than Lanfear? Is it ever know just how much the Finns leached from her?

 

Yes but she was clear to say that Alivia with the Angreal was stronger than she had been as Lanfear....

 

WH

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.

[Knivy]

Wasnt Cyn alot weaker than Lanfear? Is it ever know just how much the Finns leached from her?

 

Yes but she was clear to say that Alivia with the Angreal was stronger than she had been as Lanfear....

 

WH

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.

So we cant really know how Lanfear and Aliva compare? I forgot about the Angreal...

[TNine]

I think that both sides of the conflict have the tools to win, so what eventually happens could go either (or neither) way.

 

For channelers, its difficult to say which have more. The Seachan have a better method of finding channelers and a higher population to find them in, as well as strong and rigorous training. On the other hand, the Randlandians have access to a higher density. They recruit both men and women, and more importantly they find those that can be trained to wield the power rather than just sparkers. But those that can be trained are not as powerful, which means that there may be more channelers but the channelers as a whole are less powerful.

 

The ability to link and use Angreal is a massive advantage for the Randlandians. Not because it is more useful in all circumstances, though, but having that option is strong. Being able to create a link of thirteen and wield an angreal would allow, for instance, channelers to strike from far greater distances, allowing kiting and blasting raken out of the air. However, these advantages are situational and can be overcome.

 

The ability of the generals depends. The Seachan generals are not tactical geniuses because they can adapt. They use reactive adaptation, which can be a serious boon. Yes, it will make it hard to exploit any serious flaw in a strategy for long, but it doesn't prevent the exploitation. Constantly changing tactics will render any adaptation useless. And, as Ilturade wonderfully said, no rule should be written in stone. Even this can be abused. Let's say i am an Aiel leader, and aware of the Seachan adaptations. I would abuse the false retreat: goad the Seachan into following a "broken" army then smash them on more favorable terrain. Devote resources into making sure my ambushes are as hidden and as strong as possible, so they are almost always worth it if the Seachan follow. Eventually, they will learn to back off of a retreating enemy, after getting their nose bloodied a few times. Now i have an easy disengage from any fight--any real retreats i am forced into will be treated as a false retreat, any raids can back off without fear of being harried the entire way. Their adaptation actually ends up doing them more harm than good.

 

That said, it all depends on how their asymmetries are treated. A failure to go for any kind of decapitation strike makes the Seachan centralization very strong. A circle can lead to ruin for many sisters. The decentralization of armies allows for a divide and conquer strategy. The presumptions of the nobility of Randland means that incompetent nobles can be leading large armies, which can end in disaster. The raken and other beasts of the Seachan convey very strong advantages on the field of battle. The Seachan are far more ruthless in their warfare, willing to use any and all necessary tactics to win, while the Aiel and Aes Sedai are held back by their own morals.

 

The situation of the Aiel's downfall--especially considering how slow they were in recruiting aid from the rest of Randland--is very easy to believe. It does make me wonder what happened to the rest of the main characters in the series, though. I doubt Elayne or Egwene would allow the Aiel to fight against the Seachan alone for so long, and i think Mat could have easily won the war for whichever side he decided to fight on.

[BFG]

Alivia is the strongest female channeler we've seen yet, without an angreal. She's stronger than Lanfear, who was supposed to be as strong as a female channeler could get.

 

Good post but quick correction here BFG. Alivia was using an angreal when she faced off with Lanfear. She had Nyns jewelry set on. No woman unaided can be as strong as Lanfear.

 

Good point, I's forgotten where that comparison came from (hangs head in shame). But she's still a lot stronger than Nyn, and Nyn is a lot stronger than most full circles, so hopefully doesn't effect my argument to much. Now circles gain in precision, so it then depends on how much precision effects certain weaves, for shields it makes a huge difference, I'd imagine a fireball less so (that last is all my own interpretation and internal explanation on how the shielding thing works, may well not be true).

I think that both sides of the conflict have the tools to win, so what eventually happens could go either (or neither) way.

 

For channelers, its difficult to say which have more. The Seachan have a better method of finding channelers and a higher population to find them in, as well as strong and rigorous training. On the other hand, the Randlandians have access to a higher density. They recruit both men and women, and more importantly they find those that can be trained to wield the power rather than just sparkers. But those that can be trained are not as powerful, which means that there may be more channelers but the channelers as a whole are less powerful.

 

The ability to link and use Angreal is a massive advantage for the Randlandians. Not because it is more useful in all circumstances, though, but having that option is strong. Being able to create a link of thirteen and wield an angreal would allow, for instance, channelers to strike from far greater distances, allowing kiting and blasting raken out of the air. However, these advantages are situational and can be overcome.

 

The ability of the generals depends. The Seachan generals are not tactical geniuses because they can adapt. They use reactive adaptation, which can be a serious boon. Yes, it will make it hard to exploit any serious flaw in a strategy for long, but it doesn't prevent the exploitation. Constantly changing tactics will render any adaptation useless. And, as Ilturade wonderfully said, no rule should be written in stone. Even this can be abused. Let's say i am an Aiel leader, and aware of the Seachan adaptations. I would abuse the false retreat: goad the Seachan into following a "broken" army then smash them on more favorable terrain. Devote resources into making sure my ambushes are as hidden and as strong as possible, so they are almost always worth it if the Seachan follow. Eventually, they will learn to back off of a retreating enemy, after getting their nose bloodied a few times. Now i have an easy disengage from any fight--any real retreats i am forced into will be treated as a false retreat, any raids can back off without fear of being harried the entire way. Their adaptation actually ends up doing them more harm than good.

 

That said, it all depends on how their asymmetries are treated. A failure to go for any kind of decapitation strike makes the Seachan centralization very strong. A circle can lead to ruin for many sisters. The decentralization of armies allows for a divide and conquer strategy. The presumptions of the nobility of Randland means that incompetent nobles can be leading large armies, which can end in disaster. The raken and other beasts of the Seachan convey very strong advantages on the field of battle. The Seachan are far more ruthless in their warfare, willing to use any and all necessary tactics to win, while the Aiel and Aes Sedai are held back by their own morals.

 

The situation of the Aiel's downfall--especially considering how slow they were in recruiting aid from the rest of Randland--is very easy to believe. It does make me wonder what happened to the rest of the main characters in the series, though. I doubt Elayne or Egwene would allow the Aiel to fight against the Seachan alone for so long, and i think Mat could have easily won the war for whichever side he decided to fight on.

 

You touch on a number of really interesting things. Male channelers and a clean source is another blow to the Seanchan culture - currently they don't test for male channelers. I'd assume they now have the male adam and their's no reason to suppose it acts differently, but it's still a major cultural shift. Add this onto the fact that Tuon now knows she could channel, she's been exposed to Setalle, their are sul'dam that know they're damane, Mat's working on it... I think the damane is going to become a thing of the past.

 

I've just reread the Damona campaign and found a bit that I'd completely forgotten. Rand was winning the initial campaign, but just before he used Callandor, Bashere told him that he'd ordered a retreat, that as things were then the Seanchans return strategy was going to work and that Rand would lose. Rand then uses Callandor and forces things to a draw, but neither side was aware of that (before I reread the bit, I thought Rand was winning and forced it to a draw). After initially losing to Ituralde, they managed to force him to a stedding where he was waiting to die until Rand showed up and offered an out. Against 2 of the great Captains, they've forced the battle to a win (almost). Their's no reason to assume that anyone in Randland would do better.

 

Yes, their's a massive leadership gap all through Randland in the 20 years after TG. Elayne is presumably dead (or missing), Rand, Eg, Rhuarc, Wise Ones, pretty much everyone who leads now isn't mentioned in the first viewpoint - this worries me!

[Morden]

I've been re-reading the series, currently on book four and one thing that pops up a lot during the early books is that a man and a women linked are apparently stupidly more powerful than either alone.

 

So it may not really be needed to have a super-circle to some extents. think about it:

 

Maximum circle of equal men:women

 

Then 20 or 30 Pairs of linked men/women.

 

The big circle doing nothing but holding up a bloody big shield, similar to Dumai's Well's except far more powerful in that no single channeler could hope to penetrate it. (Of course this does not preclude the Damane combining flows, but that is something they would have to learn to do, this is what men have to do if they want to work together without a woman)

 

Then the pairs being the offensive weapons using Saidar and Saidin interwoven together to shred the damane apart from within the shielded area.

 

With this I think they would be able to hold off against a good margine of Damane, whether by killing them or stilling them.

 

 

Though in all reality we really know nothing yet everything. We are essentially like the creator, we know how things can be done, should be done, but we have no part in anything so we just sit and watch while people do stupid things.

[TristanWebb]

Hold off yes, being able to counter attack while holding a strong enough shield? I don't think think it would happen.

[Morden]

Hold off yes, being able to counter attack while holding a strong enough shield? I don't think think it would happen.

 

Why would they need to counter attack? the whole purpose of the large circle is to protect the pairs of linked men and women who would attack using saidar/saidin woven together which would confuse the Damane

[BFG]

I've been re-reading the series, currently on book four and one thing that pops up a lot during the early books is that a man and a women linked are apparently stupidly more powerful than either alone.

 

So it may not really be needed to have a super-circle to some extents. think about it:

 

Maximum circle of equal men:women

 

Then 20 or 30 Pairs of linked men/women.

 

The big circle doing nothing but holding up a bloody big shield, similar to Dumai's Well's except far more powerful in that no single channeler could hope to penetrate it. (Of course this does not preclude the Damane combining flows, but that is something they would have to learn to do, this is what men have to do if they want to work together without a woman)

 

Then the pairs being the offensive weapons using Saidar and Saidin interwoven together to shred the damane apart from within the shielded area.

 

With this I think they would be able to hold off against a good margine of Damane, whether by killing them or stilling them.

 

 

Though in all reality we really know nothing yet everything. We are essentially like the creator, we know how things can be done, should be done, but we have no part in anything so we just sit and watch while people do stupid things.

 

Except at Dumais Wells to attack they had to lift the shield which kind of defeats the point of having it - they used it at the time to secure Rand and the AS, then lifted it and dealt with the Shaido. It may well be that they could learn how to attack through the shield, but if they can do it so can the Seanchan. Or they spend a lot of time learning 1-way shields.

 

Especially agree with your last paragraph - this thread has come up with multiple ways for the good guys to win, but in books the Seanchan have effectively defeated 2 of the 5 great captains.

[TristanWebb]

A shield is useless if you can just make weaves on the other side of it (against channelers at least).

[BFG]

A one -way shield where you could block all flow from one direction but allow it from another would be great! We haven't seen it yet though.

[Yosarian]

Depends what you mean by "shield". When Rahvin was striking lightning bolts at Rand and his friends when Rand came after him, Rand threw up a shield made out of air and fire to block them.

[Mr Ares]

Galgan has supremacy with the forces of the Corenne. Even if he died, if there was someone able to gain sufficient support in a short space of time, then things won't deteriorate. Just because someone wants the top seat, doesn't mean they are in a position to get it - it makes sense to support someone who is much more powerful than you if they look to be successful, as it can help put you in a position of authority. People can bide their time, work their way up - support you today, betray you tomorrow. Given that the Corenne is operating largely separately from the rest of the Empire, I don't think there is any urgent need to subjugate the rest of the Empire - merely use the resources available. To kill two or three people might bring about the desired results, but it would have to be the right two or three - I don't think it's particularly likely. And it might take time for the situation to deteriorate enough to be a significant advantage to the Aiel. And this is a military operation - the military tend to have a clear chain of command. In other words, after taking out Tuon, you have to massacre the Seanchan officer corps. It's certainly not an easy way to victory. It relies on anyone with sufficient authority to keep things ticking over being killed, a triumph of opportunism over survival instinct, and a refusal to accept that dealing with the people who keep assassinating your leaders are a more pressing problem than who is to be leader next. It could work, but I wouldn't rely on it. Someone with enough sense and authority to get the senior generals (and possibly civil officials) to work as a team with no single leader during the time of crisis - to get them to delay the power struggle - could cripple the strategy.

 

The Corenne would not be enough to conquer Randland. Even if it had 500,000 troops it would not be enough. Add in say 1,000 Damane and probably around 5,000 Sul'dam. Personally I think they have perhaps 250,000 soldiers tops(+ Native badly trained and cowardly troops) and probably around the 1k mark for Damane, because they are so rare. My Reasoning for this is simple logistics. They crossed an Ocean with soldiers, farmers and commonfolk. If say for instance their ships were of a similar size to a Galleon, then it would likely not be able to hold more than 6-800 people at maximum. And that would be a very big ship for a wooden hull... And almost half of that would be crew... So you would need the better part of 1,000 very large ships to transport anything over 1/2 million people.

 

The battle takes place in the future so it would most likely be a unified Empire. Which gives much greater credence to the possibility that a civil war could be sparked off by taking out the top dogs. Those in Randland would likely think similarly to Suroth in that she could take over the Seanchan on this side of the Ocean.

The Corenne has access to 3 countries on this side of the Aryth (Amadicia, Altara and Tarabon). They could also, potentially expand further. Regardless, the number of troops brought with them is really only their starting number of troops - they can and will recruit from the Westlands, and while those new troops will start of poorly trained, that situation will not last indefinitely. You could consider only the resources that have already crossed the Aryth, and still the ability of the Seanchan to recruit new troops, to gain new damane, gives them a distinct edge. With 500,000 Seanchan troops, and the resources of three countries, and the bureaucracy of the Seanchan, and the damane, and all the other resources they have in the Westlands, I could defeat the Aiel. With leaders of the quality they have, they should be able to.

 

Mr Ares

 

u think Galagen is the only one who command an Army in the Sanchean empire ?

No. But a lot of different armies with a lot of different commanders presents problems for the Aiel - if those armies are still intent on kill Aiel, then you've just turned one big enemy into lots of little enemies.

 

dont u think they have local Governor with certain Autonamy ?

and if the central Goverment is destroyed (as Semy actually did) how u think it affect the Empire ?

the Loyalty as far we seen is tied to the EMPRESS and her blood line , without is the empire can split into separeted Kingdoms same as what happend to Howking Empire.

And so? It is only if you get those kingdoms to vie against one another that this is an advantage to you. If they still see you as the greatest threat (because you keep going around assassinating their leaders and blowing up their cities, for instance) then you just have lots of kingdoms to fight against. And, again, the army has a chain of command. It is only when you muddy the chain of command, or people seek to act outside or change the chain that this works to your advantage. If you keep killing leaders, then it becomes undesirable to become the sole leader - but if you and your fellow generals/local governors/etc. agree to work together to fight a common foe, then the Aiel are not in a good position. And this is already with a generous estimate of how much assassination the Aiel could do (why should we believe they could do what Semi did? To assassinate one king, it took several clans and several years, with a huge number of collateral casualties - hardly evidence of them being expert assassins) and assuming they had the will to act in such a way (they don't - they have a concept of honour).

 

i sorry i cant provide quotes but i have PAPER books (who are translated from english) and with all due respect to u and our debate i have NO intention to start DLing books just to save you the time to check the scene yourself :)

No excuse. I have paper books but still provide quotes when needed. Type them out by hand if you need to. But you are the one making claims, and therefore the burden of proof lies with you. It is up to you to back up your claims. To refuse to do so is exceedingly poor form. I have shown, with evidence from the books, that a circle involving the CK can have its weaves disrupted, in such a way as what is being woven can be stopped, and can be potentially fatal to the channeler in the circle. Yet you claim, again and again, that a circle is magically unstoppable. NO. It will not do. You have ignored the evidence to the contrary, you invent terms, you fail to provide any evidence to back up your claims, and this is not the way to conduct yourself in a debate. Your behaviour is unacceptable, it is a refusal to engage in discourse, simply saying over and over that you are right, and I don't consider this sort of rudeness the done thing at all. Now either provide some substance to your claims, or give up. This will keep going until you do one of those things.

 

in the Cleansinf scene Aginor was attacked by a HUGE fireball (who was strong enough to evaporate the head of an entire hill) and guess what -> the genius Forsaken , didnt side step, didnt deflect, didnt figure a way to undone the MUCH weaker weave (the the cleansing weave) he DIED.

He didn't see it coming. That's not a point on the awesomeness of circles, it's a point on how surprise attacks can be very useful. Which was not in dispute. A non-linked surprise attack can do as much damage. Doesn't help your argument at all.

 

Morden

great example.

let me try another analogy to describe the diffrence:

building an Ice statue and throwing an ice ball are both playing in Ice.

but it much diffrent issue to dirupt the statue making then to distrupt the iceball flying at u. (espaicelly if that ice ball is several ton in size)

Then disrupt the iceball making.

[Morden]

 

Except at Dumais Wells to attack they had to lift the shield which kind of defeats the point of having it - they used it at the time to secure Rand and the AS, then lifted it and dealt with the Shaido. It may well be that they could learn how to attack through the shield, but if they can do it so can the Seanchan. Or they spend a lot of time learning 1-way shields.

 

Especially agree with your last paragraph - this thread has come up with multiple ways for the good guys to win, but in books the Seanchan have effectively defeated 2 of the 5 great captains.

 

the Dumai's Wells part I meant the Aes Sedai, they had a circle holding a shield while others fought back individually, so it is possible just to varying degrees.

 

Regarding the 5 Captains tho, neither really had a decent fighting force. Bashere was hobbled by having Rand interfere and not really let him fight it his way, and it was a battle rather than a skirmish. Itaralda(sp) would have royally given them a headache had he been given a more equal footing.

 

I think the main problem for Randland is other than the borderlanders they lack a professional military. Hereditary based militaries stand no chance against one which actually expects its officers to think for themselves without worrying that they're going to get executed for doing the right thing but embaresses some up hit own crack noble.

 

Shame really, I loathe the Seanchan, was actually rooting for Rand when he was going to wipe them out piece by piece, but as ive said before I think i'd prefer the Dark One to win than them.

[BFG]

Except at Dumais Wells to attack they had to lift the shield which kind of defeats the point of having it - they used it at the time to secure Rand and the AS, then lifted it and dealt with the Shaido. It may well be that they could learn how to attack through the shield, but if they can do it so can the Seanchan. Or they spend a lot of time learning 1-way shields.

 

Especially agree with your last paragraph - this thread has come up with multiple ways for the good guys to win, but in books the Seanchan have effectively defeated 2 of the 5 great captains.

 

the Dumai's Wells part I meant the Aes Sedai, they had a circle holding a shield while others fought back individually, so it is possible just to varying degrees.

 

Regarding the 5 Captains tho, neither really had a decent fighting force. Bashere was hobbled by having Rand interfere and not really let him fight it his way, and it was a battle rather than a skirmish. Itaralda(sp) would have royally given them a headache had he been given a more equal footing.

 

I think the main problem for Randland is other than the borderlanders they lack a professional military. Hereditary based militaries stand no chance against one which actually expects its officers to think for themselves without worrying that they're going to get executed for doing the right thing but embaresses some up hit own crack noble.

 

Shame really, I loathe the Seanchan, was actually rooting for Rand when he was going to wipe them out piece by piece, but as ive said before I think i'd prefer the Dark One to win than them.

 

The only shield I remember being used at Dumai Wells was the one on Rand? Other than that the AS were spread out defending against the weaves coming in and attacking the Aiel. I don't recall the defence being a shield, more the way Rand and Lanfear battled in Tear, countering each others attacks.

 

But with the 5 Captains, their's no reason to assume that the troops they'll have after TG will be any better. If the Seanchan help out then sure they'll have their own losses, but by helping out the Randlanders are unlikely to unite against them, especially if they don't invade any more places. Bashere seemed to have total control. The only things Rand did was push the fighting towards Ebou Dar after Bashere wanted to withdraw and then use Callandor. The only effect continuing the fight had on Randland soldiers was in killing more of Rands soldiers and delaying the Seanchan expansion. (If they'd pulled back when Bashere initially suggested, I don't see anything that would have prevented the Seanchan retaliating and continuing the expansion.

 

Additionally the Dumais wells has the General thinking that the Taraboners are a pretty decent force (when strengthened by a core of Seanchan - I think). The Seanchan haven't been in control of Tarabon for very long at this stage! If they can assimilate local troops into their group that quickly, that's frightening! Randland will never have an alliance that's that effective.

 

Agreed about wishing the Seanchan had been driven back again! I'm not defending them because I like them, but because I think they have a far superior military than anything in Randland (unfortunately)

[balefired-ed2]

Additionally the Dumais wells has the General thinking that the Taraboners are a pretty decent force (when strengthened by a core of Seanchan - I think). The Seanchan haven't been in control of Tarabon for very long at this stage! If they can assimilate local troops into their group that quickly, that's frightening! Randland will never have an alliance that's that effective.

 

This is something that I think people need to take into consideration. Being of a certain race or country is not what makes an effective or ineffective troop. Proper training methods and motivation are what does make someone a good troop. Sure, some individuals are going to be more suited to being good soldiers than others, but on the whole it really is more about the system than the individual, and we know that the Seanchan system works, no matter how abhorrent we find the rest of their culture.

[XXX]

 

 

in the Cleansinf scene Aginor was attacked by a HUGE fireball (who was strong enough to evaporate the head of an entire hill) and guess what -> the genius Forsaken , didnt side step, didnt deflect, didnt figure a way to undone the MUCH weaker weave (the the cleansing weave) he DIED.

 

He didn't see it coming. That's not a point on the awesomeness of circles, it's a point on how surprise attacks can be very useful. Which was not in dispute. A non-linked surprise attack can do as much damage. Doesn't help your argument at all.

 

 

 

Ya that is not a great example of the awesomeness of a circle, the poor guy never saw it coming.A knife in the back would have had the same result.

[TristanWebb]

Except at Dumais Wells to attack they had to lift the shield which kind of defeats the point of having it - they used it at the time to secure Rand and the AS, then lifted it and dealt with the Shaido. It may well be that they could learn how to attack through the shield, but if they can do it so can the Seanchan. Or they spend a lot of time learning 1-way shields.

 

Especially agree with your last paragraph - this thread has come up with multiple ways for the good guys to win, but in books the Seanchan have effectively defeated 2 of the 5 great captains.

 

the Dumai's Wells part I meant the Aes Sedai, they had a circle holding a shield while others fought back individually, so it is possible just to varying degrees.

 

Regarding the 5 Captains tho, neither really had a decent fighting force. Bashere was hobbled by having Rand interfere and not really let him fight it his way, and it was a battle rather than a skirmish. Itaralda(sp) would have royally given them a headache had he been given a more equal footing.

 

I think the main problem for Randland is other than the borderlanders they lack a professional military. Hereditary based militaries stand no chance against one which actually expects its officers to think for themselves without worrying that they're going to get executed for doing the right thing but embaresses some up hit own crack noble.

 

Shame really, I loathe the Seanchan, was actually rooting for Rand when he was going to wipe them out piece by piece, but as ive said before I think i'd prefer the Dark One to win than them.

 

The only shield I remember being used at Dumai Wells was the one on Rand? Other than that the AS were spread out defending against the weaves coming in and attacking the Aiel. I don't recall the defence being a shield, more the way Rand and Lanfear battled in Tear, countering each others attacks.

 

But with the 5 Captains, their's no reason to assume that the troops they'll have after TG will be any better. If the Seanchan help out then sure they'll have their own losses, but by helping out the Randlanders are unlikely to unite against them, especially if they don't invade any more places. Bashere seemed to have total control. The only things Rand did was push the fighting towards Ebou Dar after Bashere wanted to withdraw and then use Callandor. The only effect continuing the fight had on Randland soldiers was in killing more of Rands soldiers and delaying the Seanchan expansion. (If they'd pulled back when Bashere initially suggested, I don't see anything that would have prevented the Seanchan retaliating and continuing the expansion.

 

Additionally the Dumais wells has the General thinking that the Taraboners are a pretty decent force (when strengthened by a core of Seanchan - I think). The Seanchan haven't been in control of Tarabon for very long at this stage! If they can assimilate local troops into their group that quickly, that's frightening! Randland will never have an alliance that's that effective.

 

Agreed about wishing the Seanchan had been driven back again! I'm not defending them because I like them, but because I think they have a far superior military than anything in Randland (unfortunately)

Not sure if you are being pedantic or are confused. The Ashaman used a shield of air to keep the Aiel out, granted you might call it a barrier and say that shield refers to stopping someone from using the OP, but still.

[BFG]

Except at Dumais Wells to attack they had to lift the shield which kind of defeats the point of having it - they used it at the time to secure Rand and the AS, then lifted it and dealt with the Shaido. It may well be that they could learn how to attack through the shield, but if they can do it so can the Seanchan. Or they spend a lot of time learning 1-way shields.

 

Especially agree with your last paragraph - this thread has come up with multiple ways for the good guys to win, but in books the Seanchan have effectively defeated 2 of the 5 great captains.

 

the Dumai's Wells part I meant the Aes Sedai, they had a circle holding a shield while others fought back individually, so it is possible just to varying degrees.

 

Regarding the 5 Captains tho, neither really had a decent fighting force. Bashere was hobbled by having Rand interfere and not really let him fight it his way, and it was a battle rather than a skirmish. Itaralda(sp) would have royally given them a headache had he been given a more equal footing.

 

I think the main problem for Randland is other than the borderlanders they lack a professional military. Hereditary based militaries stand no chance against one which actually expects its officers to think for themselves without worrying that they're going to get executed for doing the right thing but embaresses some up hit own crack noble.

 

Shame really, I loathe the Seanchan, was actually rooting for Rand when he was going to wipe them out piece by piece, but as ive said before I think i'd prefer the Dark One to win than them.

 

The only shield I remember being used at Dumai Wells was the one on Rand? Other than that the AS were spread out defending against the weaves coming in and attacking the Aiel. I don't recall the defence being a shield, more the way Rand and Lanfear battled in Tear, countering each others attacks.

 

But with the 5 Captains, their's no reason to assume that the troops they'll have after TG will be any better. If the Seanchan help out then sure they'll have their own losses, but by helping out the Randlanders are unlikely to unite against them, especially if they don't invade any more places. Bashere seemed to have total control. The only things Rand did was push the fighting towards Ebou Dar after Bashere wanted to withdraw and then use Callandor. The only effect continuing the fight had on Randland soldiers was in killing more of Rands soldiers and delaying the Seanchan expansion. (If they'd pulled back when Bashere initially suggested, I don't see anything that would have prevented the Seanchan retaliating and continuing the expansion.

 

Additionally the Dumais wells has the General thinking that the Taraboners are a pretty decent force (when strengthened by a core of Seanchan - I think). The Seanchan haven't been in control of Tarabon for very long at this stage! If they can assimilate local troops into their group that quickly, that's frightening! Randland will never have an alliance that's that effective.

 

Agreed about wishing the Seanchan had been driven back again! I'm not defending them because I like them, but because I think they have a far superior military than anything in Randland (unfortunately)

Not sure if you are being pedantic or are confused. The Ashaman used a shield of air to keep the Aiel out, granted you might call it a barrier and say that shield refers to stopping someone from using the OP, but still.

 

Neither, although I wasn't to clear.

 

Initially I assumed the shield he was talking about was the one by the Ashaman which was lifted to attack. Morden then responded with saying that it was the shield the AS was using. I then responded to that (but failed to specify that I meant the shields the AS were holding) to say that the only shield the AS were holding (that I remember) was the one on Rand.