how the Senchean beat the Aial (avienda vision) ???

[zerachiel76]

I agree that the Seanchan would beat the Aiel due to the reasons stated however I think the "Ever Victorious Army" can be defeated using a number of methods:

1. Training skilled leaders in order to spread the chain of command to build an organisation built along the lines of the Hydra - you cut off one head (a leader) and more simply take their place. This could be based on the Band of the Red Hand.
   
2. Organising highly trained and motivated resistance units similar to those used in France and USSR in WW2, in Vietnam by the Vietcong and still being used in Afghanistan by the taliban. Highly motivated units able to hit and fade. (to quote a phrase I love: "from the darkness we strike, fast and lethal and by the time our foes react, darkness there and nothing more." to harass and demoralize the Seanchan's allies and the Seanchan soldiers.
   
3. Using the Wise ones and Asha'man to assassinate the Damane (blow up their sleeping quarters for instance) to reduce their use in battle and to prevent them from bringing in reinforcements and supplies for the Seanchan.
   
4. Destroy the raken and to'raken units using archers or channellers, to partially blind the Seanchan armies.
   
5. Using guerilla warfare using similar methods to Ituralde but over a larger area striking at supply posts.
   
6. Use motivational techniques similar to that used by the USSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._227) or the not one step backwards or by the British in 1918 (http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/backstothewall.htm) to motivate the general population to fight the Seanchan in any way they can spying on troop movements or identifying officers etc).
   
7. Identify and assassinate the Seanchan's most effective officers.
   
8. Destroy the Seanchan ships in their harbours,
   
9. Further along the timeline, take control of the seas by building a navy, cutting off the Seanchan by destroying or limiting their naval power.
   

I appreciate this could take a while but I think it could work. After all the Seanchan are trying to supply a very large army thousands of miles from home. Destroy their logistics and you can greatly weaken their fighting ability. The old saying an army marches on it's stomach is very apt in this situation and when an is not just fighting another army but it seems like the very land has risen up to find them like in Vietnam or in Afghanistan; then even the most advanced skilled army can be defeated.

[Kamin_Majere]

That's the problem though. While all of Randland would have to learn how to use these methods and tactics, the Seanchan already use them... and use them well.

1> Well Trained Chain of Command... already in place, its the whole basis of the army

2> Already used to putting down rebellions and uprisings in Seanchan (would assume alot of them use gurellia tactics since its always a case of david vs goliath there)

3> Have no qualms about killing unleashed ones and though would rather them be leashed... better dead than free in their cultural opinion. Plus are perfectly willing to use these very same tactics, they would have crushed the White Tower already if not for sheer luck that Eggy was around and free to take Vera's Wand and teach the accepted/novices to link. This kind of tactic is something they are very versed in and are willing to use even from the position of power

4> Already have a fully functioning air force, have previously fought against forces with damane that could do this very same thing

5> Much the same as 2 i think. But to answer it remember Seanchan now have access to Travelling and dont think they wont use that now

6> The Seanchan already damn near brainwash its citizens to see the divine might of the empress and the glory of the empire. You hit Unstoppable force meets immovable object in this

7> Seanchan already use this tactic as well. Again if not for the pattern itself saving Eggy the blood knives would have slit her throat in her sleep. As it was the pattern had to magically make Gawyn save her

8> While this will slightly limit the movement of larger things remember again they have travelling now

9> Much like how the Stone is useless now with the invention of travelling the seas are as well... mine as well just have a good old fashion naval battle (remember that the seanchan monstrosity of ships will soon have cannons they will pilfer from andor and realize they are good at naval battles)

 

The Seanchan are adaptable and well organized... its a hard nut to crack. Could Randland mount a defense and an eventual victory. Of course. But how it would go down is the Aiel would be on the verge of defeat before suckering Andor into the battle.

 

Andor falls and then and only then do the rest of the nations realize there is a problem and have to band together. At that point it is too late, the Seanchan control a huge number of soldiers and channelers, and until the seanchan turn their attention to the white tower (due to those pesky 3 oaths) all Randland has is the Ashamen to act as their channeling muscle. Since the black tower resides in Andor and the seanchan now have them surrounded its only a matter of time before that institution is ground to dust and the members are fleeing to safer ground/using hit and run tactics to do battle.

 

The Seanchan now have a solid hold from the ocean into the very heart of Randland (and all of the wealth that comes with taking andor) They could literally take their time dismantling the rest of the continent.

 

 

Saying all this. If Randland recovers from the last battle for say 5 years and then puts its entire effort into expelling the Seanchan they may make a good showing of it... but with the Seanchan having travelling now all bets are off. They have 3ish times the landmass that Randland does and i'm assuming at least double the people so they could quite easily bring their ever victorious army to bear anywhere they want to and still have enough in reserve to counter the peoples of Randland attempting the same. It really is a bleak outlook for them not eating the world in their expansion. When it was just some crazy foreign invaders back in the great hunt, no worries. But once the sheer size and scale of the Seanchan was revealed it was game over

[zerachiel76]

That's the problem though. While all of Randland would have to learn how to use these methods and tactics, the Seanchan already use them... and use them well.

1> Well Trained Chain of Command... already in place, its the whole basis of the army

2> Already used to putting down rebellions and uprisings in Seanchan (would assume alot of them use gurellia tactics since its always a case of david vs goliath there)

3> Have no qualms about killing unleashed ones and though would rather them be leashed... better dead than free in their cultural opinion. Plus are perfectly willing to use these very same tactics, they would have crushed the White Tower already if not for sheer luck that Eggy was around and free to take Vera's Wand and teach the accepted/novices to link. This kind of tactic is something they are very versed in and are willing to use even from the position of power

4> Already have a fully functioning air force, have previously fought against forces with damane that could do this very same thing

5> Much the same as 2 i think. But to answer it remember Seanchan now have access to Travelling and dont think they wont use that now

6> The Seanchan already damn near brainwash its citizens to see the divine might of the empress and the glory of the empire. You hit Unstoppable force meets immovable object in this

7> Seanchan already use this tactic as well. Again if not for the pattern itself saving Eggy the blood knives would have slit her throat in her sleep. As it was the pattern had to magically make Gawyn save her

8> While this will slightly limit the movement of larger things remember again they have travelling now

9> Much like how the Stone is useless now with the invention of travelling the seas are as well... mine as well just have a good old fashion naval battle (remember that the seanchan monstrosity of ships will soon have cannons they will pilfer from andor and realize they are good at naval battles)

 

The Seanchan are adaptable and well organized... its a hard nut to crack. Could Randland mount a defense and an eventual victory. Of course. But how it would go down is the Aiel would be on the verge of defeat before suckering Andor into the battle.

 

Andor falls and then and only then do the rest of the nations realize there is a problem and have to band together. At that point it is too late, the Seanchan control a huge number of soldiers and channelers, and until the seanchan turn their attention to the white tower (due to those pesky 3 oaths) all Randland has is the Ashamen to act as their channeling muscle. Since the black tower resides in Andor and the seanchan now have them surrounded its only a matter of time before that institution is ground to dust and the members are fleeing to safer ground/using hit and run tactics to do battle.

 

The Seanchan now have a solid hold from the ocean into the very heart of Randland (and all of the wealth that comes with taking andor) They could literally take their time dismantling the rest of the continent.

 

 

Saying all this. If Randland recovers from the last battle for say 5 years and then puts its entire effort into expelling the Seanchan they may make a good showing of it... but with the Seanchan having travelling now all bets are off. They have 3ish times the landmass that Randland does and i'm assuming at least double the people so they could quite easily bring their ever victorious army to bear anywhere they want to and still have enough in reserve to counter the peoples of Randland attempting the same. It really is a bleak outlook for them not eating the world in their expansion. When it was just some crazy foreign invaders back in the great hunt, no worries. But once the sheer size and scale of the Seanchan was revealed it was game over

 

I personally think that the Seanchan's hold on power is tenuous due to their weak supply, ever reducing numbers of actual Seanchan soldiers (as opposed to conscripted Randland soldiers) and their worsening logistics situation. Their discovery of travelling improves this somewhat but with Randland starting to feel the effects of food shortages then this will hit the Seanchan as well.

 

Also there is the situation back in Seanchan itself with the civil war which will decimate the armies remaining in Seanchan and potentially annihilate the damane there too. The Seanchan army in Randland has suddenly found itself with a homeland in chaos so little to no support coming to help them, their food supplies running out, facing all the remaining Randland nations and Tarmon Gaidon. Where will they go for support?

[Kamin_Majere]

That could very well be true. But with the crystal throne (and a shiney new empress to sit on it after the last battle) i think order would be quickly reestablished.

 

As to the food shortages, will this continue after the last battle?

 

This whole scenerio is around the vision Avi had so i'm assuming its some years down the road (16ish years is the earliest memory i believe) plenty of time for the food crisis to be taken care of after the dark ones hand has been lifted and plenty of time for the empress to solidify her claim to the Crystal Throne. Travelling will be insanely powerful here. A week after Tarmon Gaidon Fortouna could literally be sitting on the Crystal Throne surrounded by her deathwatch guard and all the damene she wants. From there its simply a matter of re-accepting oaths of loyalty and crushing those that cannot travel into following the empress again.

 

The common people will support the empress (may she live forever) because that is what they do and haven't lived peacefully with an empress and in a constant state of civil war with out one it wont be hard to convince them. The military is indoctrinated to follow the throne so while some will stay loyal to one member of the blood or another, the majority will more than likely come to Fortounas banner. The Blood and High Blood might be a problem but with what they have learned in Randland and the majority of the military might it shouldnt take Fortouna to many years to solidify the rule. (especially if she brings Matt, he would single handedly take the whole continent back for her)

[elric]

travelling kill the logistic prob.

 

but linking can create the equilent of nukes.

 

that what bugging me, how come the side who HAVE nuke loose ?

[stillwill]

They wouldnt need the BT to go past circles of 13, one of the POVs (Padra or her daugher, cant remember) mentioned the "Dragon Blooded" who along with the wise ones channeled in battle against the Seanchan. Im assuming the Dragonblooded were Aiel men who can channel

 

Who teaches the Aiel men to channel?

No idea. Id imagine it will be like a mens version of the wise ones

 

Also in her vision the Seanchan dont actually start beating the Aiel until they take over the other nations and take there suldam and it also specifically mentioned them taking the war machines from Andor.

 

Until they did this for years it had been a stalemate.

[Kamin_Majere]

that what bugging me, how come the side who HAVE nuke loose ?

Mostly because how it all played out, and the fact that they dont know how to "nuke"

 

The Aiel waited until much to late to try to get the other nations involved (like a whole generation) and as long as it was just the Aiel getting killed most of the people in Randland were ok with that. Once the Aiel got Andor's help it was much to late to try to use tons of circles to overpower the Seanchan channelers because the wise ones would have mostly been collared or killed, and there is no evidence that the Black Tower took an instant part in the battle. The Black Tower is in Andor but it is not part of Andor under the queens rule. So Andor itself would have quickly fallen even with the Dragons. Once the Seanchan have those they effectively control the mot powerful conventional weapon on the planet as well as the most powerful channeling force. The Ashamen would have probably started taking an active part about half way through Andors death, but with no wise ones to really link with its basically just a couple thousand male channelers with little to no troop support against twice or more their number of female channelers with tons of troop support.

 

The Aes Sedai couldnt get involved due to the 3 oaths until the Seanchan threaten them... and by that time it would just be the white tower standing alone

[elric]

i kind of find it ilogical that any channeler wont c the senchean and their colture as a clear danger.

 

it couldnt been real hard to convince the bT to join.

also the Aial should have male channeler, like they dont send their famale to the WT , i dont c why they would send their males to the BT (accept from maybe 2-10 per year like in the WT pact)

 

with the way the Senchean colture is centerlise -> all u literally need is 1 STRONG fireball/lightning on the royal palace (or on the capital city if u want to be on safe side)

when Nyn and Moj fought in Tanchiko it was said they held enough power to level the palace-> imagine the power a BIG circle hold. (26+ circle)

[Kamin_Majere]

The Aes Sedai physically cant attack them because of the 3 oaths, they have to have their life in danger or that of their warders. So while the Seanchan can enslave the rest of the world there is nothing they can do in retaliation until they are attacked themselves... after catching a few the Seanchan know this, and will abuse this fact in a war.

 

As to the Ashamen after the last battle is over i'm assuming that whole next generation will be focused around building themselves politically to match and work with the Aes Sedai more than continue being weapons of mass destruction. The ones that survive Tarmon Gaidon will still know the hard core battle weaves, but alot are going to be killed. Plus by the time of the battles for andor there just wont be a ton of females not bound to the 3 oaths for them to make circles with.

 

Also as i said looking at the vast majority of the population of Randland if the Aiel pick a fight with the Seanchan i think they will quickly revert back to "its just those black eyed Aiel reverting back to being savages" and will largely ignore the war. The vast majority wont get involved until after Andor is crushed and know its a serious problem... or they will negotiate with the Seanchan allowing them the time they need to totally secure Andor before breaking the pacts and attacking others. (think how Germany advanced during the world war using treaties to buffer itself)

 

 

As to the Seanchan being a very centralized culture, it is true that they almost worship the Empress (may she live forever) but it really doesnt matter who is on the crystal throne kill Fortouna and the next in line takes her place, kill that one and the next does. Deaths in the royal family are pretty common so i dont thing the empire would collapse over it... though the death of the empress would have a much greater effect until the void of power is filled. What Semi did by nuking the whole line of royals was pretty impressive through and a strike like that would have far reaching effects. I just dont know if it would crush them as a people (that are already fighting a common enemy) or make them into zealots that are willing to pull down their enemy at any cost

[XXX]

Seachan is 3 times the size of Randland.If the Empire regains control and with logistics becoming easy due to gateways, they will crush Randland with sheer nos.

[elric]

i didnt say to go to the vast majority, i said they just needed to contact the channelers .

 

and in case it wasnt clear in 1 STRONG attack i ment -> carpet bombing/nuke attack.

not to kill the emperess but the Palace (or city) she is in and her entire family/ bloodline.

[Mr Ares]

the Senchean is VERY centerise society -> kill the royal family and it will turn into a bloody civil war.

few well placed assasination can destroy a generation of senchean.

How easy do you think it would be to wipe out the entire royal family? And really, it is only a problem if there is a power vacuum. If you have people more focused on dealing with the threat of the channelers who are intent on killing them all than they are becoming the new emperor or empress, then all you've done is turn a centralised threat into a decentralised threat - lots of units acting in unison, rather than one big monolithic bloc - and once you're dealt with, they turn on each other, but that doesn't help you any.

 

even if a cycle of 78 or 91 can hold only 1/10 of the power Rend and Nyn hold in the cleansing -> imagine the sheer destruction it can do, it literally the equivalent of a clean nuke.

I think what you have failed to grasp is that a nuke is not an instant win button - people with nukes can still lose. Also, there are problems that a nuke does not solve.

 

let senchean gathwer their army -> level it and then start exterminating their forces.

The counter to this is known - don't gather your forces. Rather than one big army, have lots of little ones. Spread out so you can't all be killed by one nuke. A variation of a tactic they already used in PoD - on a greater scale, but they have already shown that they can grasp the principle.

 

create a wave that open Adams , tie it and sent it on auto into the senchean continent.

What makes you think this is even possible? It would require both a massive area of effect and immense precision. Even if they had strength enough, they don't know how.

 

create storms that preventt flying and tie it.

So you have to fight in storms. So they adapt to fighting in storms. Do you think that favours wetlanders, who are used to storms, or Aiel? And what if they just adjust the weather themselves?

 

78 or even 7800 singular channeler cant unwave/counter a 78 strong cycle wave.(couse they cant matched it streangth and their individual streangth dont add up).

There's no basis to believe they can't undo it.

 

You have to bear in mind that the Seanchan military has institutionalised adaptability. It's not just one or two guys - they have a military culture which encourages people to think like great captains. Not that they will all turn out that well, but the Seanchan are more likely to find them than anyone. The Seanchan can be beaten, but there is no simple "I win" button, no insurmountable advantage. They have a lot of numbers, a strong position, they are adaptable, they have access to Travelling, they are more knowledgeable than anyone, save perhaps the Chosen, about using channellers in war. To say that linking means they can't win is ludicrous. You can say that they have a nuke all you want. So did the USA - look at how Vietnam turned out. Seanchan have a lot of advantages - beating them is not going to be easy. Linking is an advantage - used right, it will help. But it's not a game changer, it won't win you the war by itself. It's merely a useful tool. Likewise Dreamwalkers - useful tools. The Westlands and the Aiel have a few, so do the Seanchan.

[FarShainMael]

The biggest thing you are missing elric is the fact that the aiel (or anyone else in Randland for that matter) cant do this and honestly dont know how.

 

We are armchair quarterbacking to use an apt term. Its easy to come up with 10,000 ways in which the one power could be used, but no one "in the books" knows how to do any of those.

 

In the end you would have an insanely large circle basically putting up the same wind/spirit screen they always have and tossing the same fireballs they always have just at a greatly magnified level.

 

Thats why the seanchan are so unstoppable in in the books. If they see something works (for or against them) they adapt to it while all of the others don't really. Aiel pound for pound are the best warriors in the world that we know of, bt it comes from their determination and dedication to the form of battle they prefer. The seanchan will initially be devastated by this but will quickly adapt and then destroy them.

 

Interesting point here from Ch1....

 

 

Perrin snorted. “Go jump in the Winespring Water. You really think this is Demandred?”

 

“It’s exactly the sort of thing he’d try. Separate your foes, then crush them one at a time. It’s one of the oldest strategies in warfare.”

 

Demandred himself had discovered it in the old writings. They’d known nothing of war when the Bore had first opened. Oh, they’d thought they understood it, but it had been the understanding of the scholar looking back on something ancient, dusty.

 

[elric]

vietnam war wasnt a do or die war.

 

to me a more accurate example will be WW2 -> and nuke WON ww2.

 

as far as i recall there was an example or 2 in the books about opening Adam with the 1 power, so if u can iopen it u can create a wave to do it -> tie it.

 

i agrea i was mistaken in the "cant undo" u said corrctly there no evidence to it, but i do claim it cant be vcounter -> u need to be in certain power level to be able to counter a wave and no solo channeler can counter a cycle wave.

 

also the sanchean inital number adavantage aint that big.

Damana insist only from NATURAL wilder , while the Aial found every channeler they had both natural(damana) AND those who can learn(suldam) and it a known fact that the number of natural is significantly lower then the number of those who can learn.

 

i perview Linking as a WMD win button , but 1 who require a mind set of win at ALL COST -> no mercy /no regard to the other side.

i can c why Andor and the rest of randland be to hesitent to use that.

i find it much harder to c how the harx Aial the deciple of the 3 fold land , the ppl who understand better then anyone that sometime u need to make HARD choises to win hesitating.

 

and so far the Aial had been preview as very adaptable as well.

thy have chiefS on mat Level (or at least close to it).

they learn fast and relish every opportunity to learn more.

they dont shy away from hard/uncomfortable /facts and show ability to break tradition to fave new realities (unlike the AS for example).

 

so the disability of the future Aial to use their streangth bug me.

[Kamin_Majere]

Tell the soldiers in Vietnam that wasn't a do or die war. The closer you are to the actual shooting the more of a reality a war becomes. To the soldiers on a battlefield it is all do or die

 

WW2 was won because many reasons, the nukes that were dropped were generally not one of them. The nukes were a show of power almost after the fact to stop anyone from trying to take advantage of the chaos the world was in (mostly in regards to russia)

 

The Adam was opened by Nyn and she doesn't even really remember how she did it, but it is possible. But with the way the one power works i dont believe a "wave" would be able to accomplish this. If eggy ran the circle or someone like Rand then 14-30 at a time might be freed, but that a lot of simultaneous weaves with a lot of precision. Not sure how effective it would be when a fireball can hit anything with in visual range and this weave would have to be close range (remember Nyn had to come out to about 10-20 ft to unlock the single one she did)

 

You are correct about the weaves of a circle above say 9 being uncounterable (baring a specific talent) but there are ways around even that. and again using 9+ people to make a single set of weaves "uncounterable" seems almost a waste of manpower.

 

The Seanchan Initial numeric advantage is HUGE, not small. The Aiel are a single nation on Randland, even if they are the largest single nation they are fighting against a "single nation" that is itself 3 times larger than all of Randland combined. You are looking at somewhere near 20-30 to one odds. And while there are always more suldam than damene, like the Aiel, the Seanchan find EVERY girl with the ability. And each they capture is added to their pool of weapons (whether shes a sparker or a learner)

 

The Aiel are a lot less adaptable than you seem to thing. They don't seem to care where they fight or what they are fighting against, but their 'way' of fighting have never changed.

They have access to swords... they don't use them

They have access to horse... they dont use them

They have access to channeling wise ones... they don't use them

They have access to Armor... they don't use them

 

They are pound for pound the best fighters in the world probably, but their inability to adapt is staggering.

 

As to the Chiefs, some are very good... no one is at Mat's level due to him being an oddity. But i agree they have some clan chiefs that are at the same level as the Great Captains. But again when the entirety of the opposing army is taught to think just like the great captains, having a few that are that good starts to matter less and less.

 

They do learn fast and enjoy doing so, but the problem is they don't change much because of any new knowledge.

 

And while they are better than AS at accepting new information, remember 1/10th to 1/5th of them became "lost" simply by learning that they shared a common ancestor with the Tinkers... that shows a pretty bad tendency to not accept things and be able to be diverted because of it.

 

I think you are thinking to small scale when you assuming the Aiel don't use their strength in this future scenario. They fought a vastly superior enemy for 30ish years before they were beaten to the point of tricking Andor into helping them. That alone says how amazing the Aiel are. Like i said pound for pound they are the best warriors in the world more likely than not. That's like a small country like Singapore fighting the United States to almost a stand still until 2042... mind blowing in its sheer accomplishment They still lose but the fact they held on like that proves the Aiels worth.

[Knivy]

 

The Aiel are a lot less adaptable than you seem to thing. They don't seem to care where they fight or what they are fighting against, but their 'way' of fighting have never changed.

They have access to swords... they don't use them

They have access to horse... they dont use them

They have access to channeling wise ones... they don't use them

They have access to Armor... they don't use them

 

 

Swords aren't inherently better than spears, its a matter of skill. Spears give a longer reach and have more defensive capabilities. It takes more training, thats for sure, but training is one thing the Aiel have an excess of.

 

Horses would be useless to the Aiel, they limit their maneuverability in battle, and they can run as quickly as a horse over long distance.

 

Im not sure about the wise ones anymore, post TG and in combat with channelers, but it is a possibility that you are correct on that part.

 

Armor in any amount to actually provide protection would limit their maneuverability and lower their effectiveness in combat, its the trade off between protection and offense.

 

 

 

 

The reason I believe they will lose is devastating casualties in TG, and attempting to free their captured channelers they will trigger a war they arent capable of winning.

[Kamin_Majere]

Swords have their place, i'm still of the opinion that a short spear will trumph a sword in almost every case. But in close up battle or where blunt force (forgive the pun) is needed a sword and its much longer cutting edge have a decent advantage. But even if you were to give them Light Sabers they would still not use them simply because its a sword... that was the point i was trying to make. Give them the choice between sharpened pointy rocks on a long stick and a light saber and they will chose the rock. Hence unadaptable

 

Horses might only match them in the long run but short sprints horses have been shown faster than Aiel, and you can have heavy calvery with out horse. Again it shows Aeil dedication to a way of combat that is for the most part superior but is inflexable and unwilling to adopt anything new even when it is more effective than the way they do it.

 

true the wise ones are a toss up... just using it to make a point really

 

Armor is highly effective, it took the gun to stop knights from owning the battlefield. You are much faster not in armor, but if 95% of attacks are ignored by you then generally you have the edge in a battlefield melee.

 

Mostly i was simply using these examples of why Aiel are inflexible fighters, not really as a point of debate. They are amazing like native americans mixed with ninja, but they are fighting an enemy willing to adapt and is already vastly larger and more powerful than they are. The losses at Tarmon Gaidon don't matter really. If the Aiel nation at its height (right before the Shadio split) had survived TG fully intact it would still have lost to the Seanchan. You are talking a single nation of people waging war on an entire continent that is 3 times its continents size. Its just a fight of manpower and resources they couldn't deal with, and wouldn't adapt to

[elric]

the reason Aial dont were Armor s not due to tradition but due to their fight style.

Aial style is based on dexteriy + dodge , they dont deflect the attacks the sidestep it.

 

and regarding heavy cavalry we seen how well that work.

the only thing that worked was a spear wall (an anty cavalry tactic :) )

 

but that minor stuff our main disagreament lie on how we pewrcieve cycle power.

 

i c it as STRATEGIC weapon, a weapon u could use to wipe out cities /make nation wide tsunamy / erupt Karaktua on your enemies.

u c it as tactical wepon limited mainly to the battlefield and by so a waste of channeling resource.

 

(in case u a Babilon 5 fan -> i c cycle like the sentaury orbital bombardment of the Narn-> arguably evil , but definitly effective)

[Mr Ares]

vietnam war wasnt a do or die war.

 

to me a more accurate example will be WW2 -> and nuke WON ww2.

"Do or die war" is a very arbitrary term. WWII was, to all intents and purposes, won before the atomic bombs were dropped. A large part of what the A-bombs did was force the Japanese to surrender - otherwise, they would have fought on and the cost in lives (American certainly, and probably Japanese as well) would have been much higher. For them, the war was already unwinnable, they were simply presented with an enemy they could not fight so as to make it impossible for them to fight to the very end. Such is not really possible for linked circles - it's just turning several channelers into one channeler. A circle can be killed, much like a regular channeler can. And the Seanchan have Traveling, so they can project force that far.

 

as far as i recall there was an example or 2 in the books about opening Adam with the 1 power, so if u can iopen it u can create a wave to do it -> tie it.

I think you're failing to consider the practical difficulties with that position - you can open an a'dam with a flow of Air, just by pressing where a finger would press to open it. Tying off a weave to do that isn't just a matter of tying of the "open a'dam" weave, it's a matter of creating a weave that can hunt down a'dam and open them by way of applying specific pressure - you want that carried out over an entire continent. That's something more complex in operation than any weave or warding we've ever seen. The closest comparison would be Rand's seeker lightning in TSR, soemthing which he couldn't remember how to do afterwards, and this is an order of magnitude more complex than that.

 

If you had the Power today, it would be possible to use it to press a few buttons, and thus set your recording device of choice up to record Homeland while you were in the same room - using Air in place of arms. Suggesting that it should therefore be possible to make every recording device in continental North America record Homeland just by tying off a weave is mind boggling - akin to using a flow of Air in place of God and claiming it's the same thing. There is no channeler in the series capable of such a feat - not even close. Not for reasons of strength, simply because such a complex weave is likely impossible.

 

i agrea i was mistaken in the "cant undo" u said corrctly there no evidence to it, but i do claim it cant be vcounter -> u need to be in certain power level to be able to counter a wave and no solo channeler can counter a cycle wave.

Again, no evidence. Demandred certainly thought he could undo what Rand was weaving during the Cleansing. And given that that was Rand and Nynaeve using the CK, and thus more than any circle, the idea that it cannot be countered is almost certainly false.

 

also the sanchean inital number adavantage aint that big.

It's not just numbers - the Seanchan have channelers with hundreds of years experience using the OP in battle, and generals with years of experience commanding channelers in battle - they know what they can do, more intimately than the Aiel do. It's comparing an experienced artillery commander, with experienced crews and calibrated guns, to people using the big guns for the first time and saying the rookies have the advantage because they have a few more guns.

 

i perview Linking as a WMD win button , but 1 who require a mind set of win at ALL COST -> no mercy /no regard to the other side.

I view linking as a useful tool. A link grants greater strength at the loss of flexibility - one big strong thing to lots of little things. Of course, with the ability to choose between whichever is best for the moment. The Seanchan cannot do that. A disadvantage, but not a major one. Anything links do can be guarded against, or undone. And, given that Demandred thought that whatever he did ran the risk of burning out or even killing Rand, doing so could potentially take down a lot of channelers in a single blow.

 

and so far the Aial had been preview as very adaptable as well.

The Aiel have shown a willingness to adapt their tactics to what is best. They lack the variety of offensive and defensive tools the Seanchan and Westlands have. The Seanchan have institutionalised that adaptability - others display it on an individual level, the Seanchan use it as the basis of their military culture. They are far more ready to adopt new technologies than the Aiel. The Aiel don't have access to a wide variety of troops - light skirmishers and channelers, who are irregulars anyway. The Seanchan have channeling regulars, cavalry, both heavy and light, infantry, both heavy and light, flying reconnaissance, airborne drop ships - in other words, everything the Aiel have and more. The Aiel have fewer tools in their toolbox than the Seanchan do. Therefore, the Seanchan have a better chance of having the right tool for the job. Really, there is no comparison. And when new tools become available, the Seanchan have shown a willingness to incorporate them. The Aiel haven't. The Aiel are not as adaptable as the Seanchan.

 

the reason Aial dont were Armor s not due to tradition but due to their fight style.

Aial style is based on dexteriy + dodge , they dont deflect the attacks the sidestep it.

So you counter with a blow they cannot dodge.

 

but that minor stuff our main disagreament lie on how we pewrcieve cycle power.

 

i c it as STRATEGIC weapon, a weapon u could use to wipe out cities /make nation wide tsunamy / erupt Karaktua on your enemies.

u c it as tactical wepon limited mainly to the battlefield and by so a waste of channeling resource.

No, you see it as a weapon with no counter. We see it as a useful tool, one that can be countered. Sometimes the correct tool is a hammer, sometimes it's a screwdriver, sometimes it's a drill. You just keep pointing out that they can make a massive hammer, without realising that not all problems are nails.

[elric]

when the job is to break something , yes sometime a screw driver can be very effective or a drill and pressure pint... but a BIG HAMMER (and i c it more lie the iron ball used to break building) will do the job of breaking.

 

and true i c nuke as uncounterable.

i c it as the equilent of today nuke, yep u can have lit of weapin but can u counter a nuke attack ????

say only North Korea had nukes and usa was totally incapable of creating it, who would u bet on in a war ??? ( i use N.K couse i precieve them as crazy enough to use it)

[TristanWebb]

TAR is pretty much useless in a war situation. If you have decent document security (in this case a basic cypher that would take greater than a minute to decrypt and constantly moving the reports) the only thing it is useful for goes away.

 

As for circles, they are pretty bad most of the time. Smaller circles may be useful in a battle, but anything over thirteen would be a waste, especially seeing what the ashaman did at Dumai's Wells. Sure, you might be able to destroy a whole city at once with a large enough circle, but with that many you could also destroy it singularly. Circles main use is for a large amount of power to be put in a very precise place, something that is a lot harder to do with multiple individuals, or for doing one time events like Healing.

 

Of course, suicide missions with gateways, send the leader of a large circle through it and explode the place would be effective, but hardly the way to win a war.

 

As for the Dragon Blooded, they referred to Rand's kids, the four who had been holding the Power since birth.

[elric]

Tar can be VERY effective tool.

enter Tar -> force the enemy leader into it (can be done but percieved as evil) -> compell him -. rinse and repeat.

but it a tool senchean can learn so it temporarely advantage.

 

26 channeler cant destroy a city at once , it will take some time and can be countered.

a cycle of 26 cant be countered and can level a city in 1 strike.

1 nuke vs fleet who carpet bomb.

[TristanWebb]

A circle of twenty six would hold less total power than twenty six individuals. You get a bit of timing down and a strike pattern, the individuals could do as much area damage as the circle, probably more. You train your channellers to the same precision as Mat does his crossbows and they would do as much damage as you want.

 

Nukes do so much damage because they are an order of magnitude (at least) above conventional explosives. Little Boy had a yield of 16000 tons of TNT, standard conventional bombs of the time seem to be 500lb, or 220ish kilos. That equals around 72000 standard bombs. Do you believe there would be less devastation at Hiroshima if the US had the ability to drop 72000 bombs in a single wave?

[elric]

dropping 72000 bomb is carpet bombing , the exact thing the brit did on a german city (forgot her name) and that the german tried to do on london.

 

it CAN be counterd , the channelers in the city can counter the waves of your solo 26 channelers, the inital dmg will be much less effective.

but a 26 channeler cycle inital dmg will destroy the city and every one (including the channeler in it) on the first strike. (or 78 if u think 26 dont have enough juice)

[TristanWebb]

What I am saying is that x amount of people have y amount of power. As a circle, they have y minus z power. If you organise it right, a group of individuals have a greater destructive capability than a circle, because they don't suffer the loss.

 

For city destruction, the only thing you have going for you is the possibility that linking through a gateway doesn't suffer attenuation, so that most of your circle could be far away with only one in harms way. Otherwise, all individuals striking together would cause more damage than a circle, provided LoS is adequate to visualise the city.

 

A nuke requires far less resources for delivery than the equivalent of conventional weaponry. You plant 16 kilotons of TNT in a place and you get the same explosive force as Little Boy, that is how the yield is calculated. Linking doesn't have that. It actually requires more resources for the same force, and unless what you need in a single weave (such as large gateways), a well trained group would do better unlinked.