The top 10 fighters with the OP/TP

[Kahsm]

cant c Egy win against the like of Nyn or Ali.

she just not strong enough to slice their flows.

 

Do we have any metics on what it takes to slice a flow? relative power wise? In the Nyn v. Mogh fight the flows had an "edge" to them. So if females really have more control over their flows I suspect females can make sharper edges than men could. So it's theoretically possible that substantially weaker women can still slice thick flows (of men or women), but substantially weaker men could not, because they can't get the edge on their weaves and would need more strength to compensate. And personally, I think this would give women an edge in any OP v OP fights, while men are better at blowing up big things, or lots of non channelers at once.

 

If there's one "move" that really turns a particular fight, and someone's better at that move, that's a huge advantage. Men's advantage could be that they can shield women and hold the shield easier. But still, if the woman can just slice all the shields to ribbons before they form, that's good game.

 

And Eggy isn't exactly weak. We know Lanfear could easily slice Rand's weaves, though he may not have been any more powerful than her at the time.... I'd be interested if anyone had more comparative data on slicing weaves.

[Entreri]

"And personally, I think this would give women an edge in any OP v OP fights"

 

If this agilty bonus gave women such advantages in one-on-one fights, they would never need to send out so many AS to capture one man. Plus, for men's inherent weakness, they would be the one's able to link, to balance things out.

 

Nobody would dare fight Lanfear one-on-one and think they could every hope to win. Given that this would all be well known in AoL, someone like Rahvin would never think he or Sammael could "overwhelm" Lanfear. The Ash'man would never be able to capture the likes of Alivia.

 

I would say that this agility/dexterity bonus gives women the opportunity to make any weave a man can with less effort. Thus the strongest woman can do anything the strongest man can. So if Rand Sedai can throw max of 20 fireballs at once, so can Lanfear, even though she is weaker. That does not mean that Rand Sedai's greater strength plays no part in the battle. According to Nyaneve, Alivia would "overwhelm" her whatever she did. Ravhin stated that he or Sammael would "overwhelm" Lanfear.

[Amandera]

Alivia and Taim both are one step below respectively Lanfear and Rand. That means Taim has the advantage of more OP while Alivia has more dexterity. These advantages negate each other. Then you have to look at the other factors:

Experience: Alivia by far. She is over 400 years old and 400 of those years are spent being used as a weapon or being trained as a weapon. We don't exactly know how old Taim is because of the slowing but he is nowhere near Alivia.

Skill: Both are fighters. They are equal in this.

Knowledge: Alivia claims the Asha'man are good weapons but she is better. In return she has no idea how to defend herself, while Taim does. Taim has a big advantage in defense while Alivia has a small one in offense. That puts Taim ahead but not by that much.

 

Overall, one-on-one Alivia has the advantage.

 

Uhh, no freaking way. Training to blow up helpless OP fodder is nothing compared to a guy trained to actually fight another OP user. Normally I'd give the advantage to women over men in an OP v OP duel, but not in this case. Alivia has been trained to use brute strength just to make things to boom. We know from Mogh v. Nynaeve that those "skills" can be made completely useless in OP v OP.

Enemy armies have damane too, you know. I just don't agree damane are nothing but very mobile cannons. Look at Adelorna's PoV in tGS. Damane very easily overwhelm the Aes Sedai except for Egwene's group and to a much lesser degree Saerin's group. I know AS lacked the discipline to mount an efficient counter strike there but Adelorna says she is suprised at how deadly the damane are. That's enough of an evidence that damane do not only train to blow stuff up.

 

Sidenote: Alivia has not been sitting idly since her liberation. She should be better than she is before, we saw how fast she learns.

 

In Moggy vs Nyn, they were pretty much at a stand-still (Nynaeve was nowhere near her potential at the time, but nobody said Moghedien is a good fighter) with Moghedien slowly gaining the upper hand. Then Nynaeve caused a momentary lapse in Moggy's concentration and that was enough of an edge for Nyn to shield the other woman. Now, you might say there is no such thing as dirty fighting when your life is at stake. But, in my opinion, if we are going to discuss who would kick whose ass, we have to think the battles like a boxing match, outlined by rules, no balefire and such. Otherwise, in the heat of the moment, there is too much randomness and the outcome of the fight is not always upto the fighters' skills.

 

Actually a lot of this discussion really doesn't look at HOW one OP user would fight another OP user. Sure, strength is great if you want to make a giant fireball or a large balefire beam. But any channeler who's just strong enough to slice your flows, fast enough to do it before you can finish the weave, and agile enough to use enough flows at once you can't get anything going, is going to win.

Spot on, agility is being massively underestimated in this discussion. Per RJ greater agility for the females makes up for the strength difference between men and women.

This is what I've been saying from the start.

 

And who's the most agile channeler we've seen to date? Egwene. Not going to claim she's actually good enough to do that yet, but she's got the potential. She lacks real OP v. OP experience.

I'm sorry, but when have we seen that? I'm not disputing Egwene is good but there is simply no evidence to that kind of a claim.

 

cant c Egy win against the like of Nyn or Ali.

she just not strong enough to slice their flows.

 

Do we have any metics on what it takes to slice a flow? relative power wise? In the Nyn v. Mogh fight the flows had an "edge" to them. So if females really have more control over their flows I suspect females can make sharper edges than men could. So it's theoretically possible that substantially weaker women can still slice thick flows (of men or women), but substantially weaker men could not, because they can't get the edge on their weaves and would need more strength to compensate. And personally, I think this would give women an edge in any OP v OP fights, while men are better at blowing up big things, or lots of non channelers at once.

 

If there's one "move" that really turns a particular fight, and someone's better at that move, that's a huge advantage. Men's advantage could be that they can shield women and hold the shield easier. But still, if the woman can just slice all the shields to ribbons before they form, that's good game.

 

And Eggy isn't exactly weak. We know Lanfear could easily slice Rand's weaves, though he may not have been any more powerful than her at the time.... I'd be interested if anyone had more comparative data on slicing weaves.

I don't really disagree with your post here, Kael. I'm just going to correct a little fact. I think you're misinterpreting the "edge" that's mentioned there. Shielding and Severing weaves are pretty much the same. The difference is Severing weave has sharper edges (Egwene's PoV when she severs a BA in tDR). I don't remember the scene exactly but that's the edge Nynaeve was referring to IIRC. What I mean to say is it's not that saidar weaves have sharper edges than saidin ones, that was a particular weave from a particular scene. So that is not an advantage women have over men.

 

I would say that this agility/dexterity bonus gives women the opportunity to make any weave a man can with less effort. Thus the strongest woman can do anything the strongest man can. So if Rand Sedai can throw max of 20 fireballs at once, so can Lanfear, even though she is weaker.

Yes, more dexterity don't give women advantages. It negates their disadvantage of having less strength.

[WMBunt]

Actually a lot of this discussion really doesn't look at HOW one OP user would fight another OP user. Sure, strength is great if you want to make a giant fireball or a large balefire beam. But any channeler who's just strong enough to slice your flows, fast enough to do it before you can finish the weave, and agile enough to use enough flows at once you can't get anything going, is going to win.

 

Spot on, agility is being massively underestimated in this discussion. Per RJ greater agility for the females makes up for the strength difference between men and women.

 

Right on. I think too many people are forgetting a great moment in the books that played out as an illustration of a great story in the book. Mat Cauthon beats Gawyn and Galad 1 v 2 with a quarterstaff. Hammar talks about a farmer with a quarterstaff defeated the best blademaster ever when Jearom was defeated. It was his only loss in his life. A great theme from the books. Knowledge can trump brute force.

 

It's amazing to see people say that strength beats knowledge and cunning, but then turn around and say that Alivia can't win because all she knows is beating things into submission. Cadsuane's cunning can arguably more than make up for a lack of strength as one example.

[XXX]

Well Egwene lacks both knowledge as well as strength compared to the forsaken as well as Rand so it is doubtful she can be anywhere is the top half of the list.She would barely make it into the bottom half.

 

Cads has even less strength and even less knowledge compared to Egwene so..

[Suttree]

Cads has even less strength and even less knowledge compared to Egwene so..

 

How do you figure Cads has less knowledge than Eggy in relation to wielding the OP? She has hundreds of years of learning combined with a crash course when young from the wilder in the Black Hills. Now way that Eggy knows more than her...

[XXX]

Cads has even less strength and even less knowledge compared to Egwene so..

 

How do you figure Cads has less knowledge than Eggy in relation to wielding the OP? She has hundreds of years of learning combined with a crash course when young from the wilder in the Black Hills. Now way that Eggy knows more than her...

 

Egwene knows stuff from the Aol learnt from Moggy plus knowledge from the Seachan.

[Entreri]

Strength plays a major part when their knowledge of the OP is very similar, as stated by Rahvin:

 

"Is he really so strong? Rahvin asked quitely. This Rand al'Thor. Could he have overwhelmed you, face-to-face? Not that he himself could not, if it came to it, or Sammael, though Grandael would likely link with Lanfear if either men tried."

 

I would say knowledge and skills in the OP is the more important, followed by strength, then luck and agility.

 

Rand to Cadusane:"Be comforted--you face the Forsaken, but have one as ancient as they at your side".

[BFG]

Cads has even less strength and even less knowledge compared to Egwene so..

 

How do you figure Cads has less knowledge than Eggy in relation to wielding the OP? She has hundreds of years of learning combined with a crash course when young from the wilder in the Black Hills. Now way that Eggy knows more than her...

 

Egwene knows stuff from the Aol learnt from Moggy plus knowledge from the Seachan.

 

The Seanchan stuff isn't really that subtle - she does have an advantage over Cads because she's strong in earth and fire, whereas since nothing is said to the contrary I assume that Cads is more traditional, and better at air and water.

 

How much would Mog really have known? Nyn beat her to a standstill in tSR(?)

[Whizbang]

Egwene > Cads for knowledge of weaves.

 

Cads > Egwene for experience in OP battle and knowing tricks to trap channelers stronger than she is.

 

I would put Cads over Egwene in a ranking. Cads has a ton of experience handling male channelers, tracking down runaways, and generally dealing with any situation thrown at her. Egwene is young and been mostly sheltered from direct confrontation (Yes, there was that one part in Tear where she, Nyn, and Elayne took on the BA, but that was mostly through her dreamwalking ability, not OP v OP. Other than that, she has been mostly shielded from battle, by Moir, the WT, the Aiel, then the Renegade WT). Just look at how well she handled the harbor chain at the WT. She "snuck" up to the chain... and then just channeled like the past handful of people who attempted to do this were not captured. Yes, she handled herself well in the WT battle with the Seanchan, but that was more the Sa'Angreal + the effect of being a big fish in a small pond. The rest of the Aes Sedai were less experienced in battle than she. Cads, however, has been out seeking trouble and dealing with it efficiently for some time.

 

It'd be a close battle (Egwene really is much stronger), but Cads' edge in experience will win the day.

 

Regardless, both are far down the list of top OP battlers.

 

Any of the channelers at SL who fought the forsaken are now blooded battlers and could be considered for positions 10-20. That was a pretty hairy fight. I was honestly surprised that they managed to pull it off without more casualties, even with Angreal, ter'Angreal and Callandor.

[MasterAblar]

It'd be a close battle (Egwene really is much stronger), but Cads' edge in experience will win the day.

 

Egwene is only a little stronger than Cadsuane.

[BFG]

It'd be a close battle (Egwene really is much stronger), but Cads' edge in experience will win the day.

 

Egwene is only a little stronger than Cadsuane.

 

Most level systems that I've seen assume an increasing difference between the Levels - but that's beside the point and there are already several threads on that...

 

As I said earlier, Eg has an unusually strong (for women) affinity for earth, and possibly fire - this may make a bigger difference depending on how the fight works out. Or because a lot of Cads experience is fighting against men who are strong in Earth and Fire it may work to Egs disadvantage.

 

I'd back Cads as well :)

[Suttree]

Cads has even less strength and even less knowledge compared to Egwene so..

 

How do you figure Cads has less knowledge than Eggy in relation to wielding the OP? She has hundreds of years of learning combined with a crash course when young from the wilder in the Black Hills. Now way that Eggy knows more than her...

 

Egwene knows stuff from the Aol learnt from Moggy plus knowledge from the Seachan.

 

Moggy was not a good fighter and there is hardly any evidence that she taught them things that would be useful in a OP battle. They weren't exactly focused on that topic. In regards to the Seanhan she was there for a limited time and the learning seemed to be mostly blasting things. There wasnt an emphasis on dueling. No, Cads with her experience and unconventional weaves surely has more knowledge for all that she isn't as strong...

[Damer Sedai]

Egwene knows stuff from the Aol learnt from Moggy plus knowledge from the Seachan.

 

Moggy was not a good fighter and there is hardly any evidence that she taught them things that would be useful in a OP battle. They weren't exactly focused on that topic. In regards to the Seanhan she was there for a limited time and the learning seemed to be mostly blasting things. There wasnt an emphasis on dueling. No, Cads with her experience and unconventional weaves surely has more knowledge for all that she isn't as strong...

 

Not to mention, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene didn't have any opportunity to practice any battle weaves, even if such were taught, during their secret lessons in Salidar. This would have made learning effective battle weaves from Moggy (or at least how to use them tactically) that much harder.

[Yosarian]

Men are supposedly much stronger in the power (akin to arm-wrestling), and their powers are much more geared toward violence than women (i.e. earth & fire vs. air & spirit). So, even the strongest female channeler in the series (Lanfear) would've been a weaker "arm-wrestler" than a great many of male channelers.

 

Rand couldn't out "arm-wrestle" Lanfear. Granted he wasn't willing to try to kill her, but if he was significantly stronger then her, she shouldn't have been able to shield him, and she was. I just read that scene in Lord of Chaos, and holy crap is was terrifying.

 

I mean, he's more powerful now, but considering how he had bested other forsaken several times already by LoC, Lanfear really seems to be one of the most dangerous Forsaken.

 

And just the fact that there was literally nothing else Moraine could have done also says wonders for Lanfear's power. I mean, Moraine even knows how to use balefire and is willing to use it, but apparently even that wouldn't have worked.

 

I'd put Lanfear at about #3, just under Morridan. After she came back, she was much weaker, of course.

[Maleshub]

Wasn't Lanfear using an angreal in the Battle at the Docks in Cairhien?

[MasterAblar]

Men are supposedly much stronger in the power (akin to arm-wrestling), and their powers are much more geared toward violence than women (i.e. earth & fire vs. air & spirit). So, even the strongest female channeler in the series (Lanfear) would've been a weaker "arm-wrestler" than a great many of male channelers.

 

Rand couldn't out "arm-wrestle" Lanfear. Granted he wasn't willing to try to kill her, but if he was significantly stronger then her, she shouldn't have been able to shield him, and she was. I just read that scene in Lord of Chaos, and holy crap is was terrifying.

 

I mean, he's more powerful now, but considering how he had bested other forsaken several times already by LoC, Lanfear really seems to be one of the most dangerous Forsaken.

 

And just the fact that there was literally nothing else Moraine could have done also says wonders for Lanfear's power. I mean, Moraine even knows how to use balefire and is willing to use it, but apparently even that wouldn't have worked.

 

I'd put Lanfear at about #3, just under Morridan. After she came back, she was much weaker, of course.

 

It was tFoH not LoC, and by then the only Forsaken he'd really bested in fight with the One Power is Asmodean. He had Callandor when he fought Ishamael the third time.

 

Rand had not reached his full potential, not by a fair margin. And Lanfear never actually succeeded in shielding Rand. And Rand was refusing to let LTT help. All things considered Rand was at a significant disadvantage in the fight.

 

Wasn't Lanfear using an angreal in the Battle at the Docks in Cairhien?

 

Yes, but so was Rand.

[muddasssir]

Cads has even less strength and even less knowledge compared to Egwene so..

 

How do you figure Cads has less knowledge than Eggy in relation to wielding the OP? She has hundreds of years of learning combined with a crash course when young from the wilder in the Black Hills. Now way that Eggy knows more than her...

Way she knows more than Romanda about politics or she knows more about dealing with a warder than an aes sedai who held his bond for longer than eggy had lived. Do you want me to continue or do you get the picture?

[muddasssir]

By the way on topic there was a quote from moggy when Rahvin and Rand were fighting in Caemlyn. She said that both of them could have killed them as they were stronger but they were stronger still since they were there in person. Of course I am paraphrasing, but I got the essence of the quote across. I guess that the whole point is moot after that. Lanfear is perhaps the strongest woman ever. Does that mean all women can beat the crap out of men? no textual evidence.

[Maleshub]

Wasn't Lanfear using an angreal in the Battle at the Docks in Cairhien?

 

Yes, but so was Rand.

 

True, but wasn't Lanfear's angreal much more powerful than Rand's?

[XXX]

Men are supposedly much stronger in the power (akin to arm-wrestling), and their powers are much more geared toward violence than women (i.e. earth & fire vs. air & spirit). So, even the strongest female channeler in the series (Lanfear) would've been a weaker "arm-wrestler" than a great many of male channelers.

 

Rand couldn't out "arm-wrestle" Lanfear. Granted he wasn't willing to try to kill her, but if he was significantly stronger then her, she shouldn't have been able to shield him, and she was. I just read that scene in Lord of Chaos, and holy crap is was terrifying.

 

I mean, he's more powerful now, but considering how he had bested other forsaken several times already by LoC, Lanfear really seems to be one of the most dangerous Forsaken.

 

And just the fact that there was literally nothing else Moraine could have done also says wonders for Lanfear's power. I mean, Moraine even knows how to use balefire and is willing to use it, but apparently even that wouldn't have worked.

 

I'd put Lanfear at about #3, just under Morridan. After she came back, she was much weaker, of course.

 

Rand never tried to out wrestle her. According to RJ, if Rand had allowed LTT to take over Lanfear would have been beaten.And this even with Rand far from his full strength. This gives an idea of how superior a fighter LTT was compared to anyone else.

[Valley of Death]

VoG Rand is by far superior to anyone. the battle at Maradon? Rand was using too many weaves to keep track and the other Ashaman was simply amazed. When Rand met Logain and Taim he wasn't at his full strength when they were. So I would put Rand on another level than anyone else.

[Whizbang]

I got the impression that Moiraine couldn't do anything simply because Lanfear was so quick with the OP. As soon as Moiraine embraced the source, Lanfear would have crushed her before Moiraine could even think about balefire. This is what Moiraine saw in the Rhuidean ter'angreal. Think back to when Mogi was with the Liandrin and other Black Ajah, after Brigette shot her with the arrow. Liandrin saw Mogi weakened and near dead, so she attacked with her special compusion weave (which has been described earlier as a whip-crack of a weave, using only a little of the power). Mogi embraces Saidar, cuts the weave and shields Liandrin before the "whip" is even halfway across the room. Lanfear, I am sure, is at least as quick as Mogi, and probably a good deal more so. It would take Lanfear an instant to deal with Moiraine, then turn back to continue the fight with Rand.

[Yosarian]

Men are supposedly much stronger in the power (akin to arm-wrestling), and their powers are much more geared toward violence than women (i.e. earth & fire vs. air & spirit). So, even the strongest female channeler in the series (Lanfear) would've been a weaker "arm-wrestler" than a great many of male channelers.

 

Rand couldn't out "arm-wrestle" Lanfear. Granted he wasn't willing to try to kill her, but if he was significantly stronger then her, she shouldn't have been able to shield him, and she was. I just read that scene in Lord of Chaos, and holy crap is was terrifying.

 

I mean, he's more powerful now, but considering how he had bested other forsaken several times already by LoC, Lanfear really seems to be one of the most dangerous Forsaken.

 

And just the fact that there was literally nothing else Moraine could have done also says wonders for Lanfear's power. I mean, Moraine even knows how to use balefire and is willing to use it, but apparently even that wouldn't have worked.

 

I'd put Lanfear at about #3, just under Morridan. After she came back, she was much weaker, of course.

 

Rand never tried to out wrestle her. According to RJ, if Rand had allowed LTT to take over Lanfear would have been beaten.And this even with Rand far from his full strength. This gives an idea of how superior a fighter LTT was compared to anyone else.

 

Sure. If you notice I did put Rand above Lanfear on my list. Still, if you compare Rand vs Lanfear with how Rand did against Forsaken in earlier books (when he knew even less about what he was doing and was generally getting less direct help from LT), Lanfear was pretty effective.

 

I mean, while she was fighting Rand, she easily defeated both Egwene and Aviendha at the same time without even giving them her full attention. She wiped out whole units of Aiel warriors with waves of fire like she was swatting flies without even breaking stride. And all this was while Rand was trying to fight against her.

 

That's really the only time we saw her fight, so that's what we have to go on, but I can't think of an example of any Forsaken in the books being more effective in battle then Lanfear was in that scene.