Is Demandred Timolan?

[Terez]

And really, Brandon's comment that people online have figured it out makes it clear it's not someone like Timolan who has never even been mentioned as a suspect before.

And Brandon thought just as well that a lot of people thought Demandred was Paitar, whilst in fact they didn't. So that isn't very convincing.

 

Actually, a lot of people did think Paitar, mostly here at DM, though some went for the general Borderlander ruler thing. (An example from a few days before Brandon said that in Paris; do a search for _paitar demandred_ and you'll find more.) Of course, when people bring it up, we always tell them that Paitar was disqualified. But I think Brandon knew that, and he was just trying to dissemble. The statement about 'people online have figured it out' is more straightforward...or, it would be much more deceptive it it turned out to be someone that no one has really theorized about.

[Suttree]

And really, Brandon's comment that people online have figured it out makes it clear it's not someone like Timolan who has never even been mentioned as a suspect before.

And Brandon thought just as well that a lot of people thought Demandred was Paitar, whilst in fact they didn't. So that isn't very convincing.

 

Actually there were quite a number of people who did.

 

Edit: Gah! This is becoming a weekly occurrence Terez!

[ta'maral'ailen]

Ok, point conceded. I didn't know there were a lot people who thought Demandred was Paitar. But I'n still all in for Demandred being Timolan ;)

[Terez]

Gah! This is becoming a weekly occurrence Terez!

 

lol, sorry. You didn't even have the excuse of providing a quote this time. :p

 

I imagine that Brandon probably gets Paitar a lot at signings and in emails, from people who don't really keep up with the forums. Same with Galgan, etc. Most people don't know they're disqualified, as the DM noobs demonstrate regularly.

[Damer Sedai]

Not for nothing, but I was SO sure that "Demandred = Taim" back in the 90s when I was young and foolish (or at least slightly more foolish than now), cemented by long arguments into the wee hours with college buddies, that I automatically and instinctively discount every other theory on Demandreds identity as wrong. I know that RJ disabused us of the theory long ago, and it was later confirmed in the text, but my right brain just won't accept any alternatives. INtellectually, Roedran makes the most sense, but the scope seems wrong... tin-pot King of a crappy country, compaired to lesser Chosen (IMO) in Andor/Tear/Illian.

 

Taimandred, I wish I knew how to quit you.

[Terez]

Not for nothing, but I was SO sure that "Demandred = Taim" back in the 90s when I was young and foolish (or at least slightly more foolish than now), cemented by long arguments into the wee hours with college buddies, that I automatically and instinctively discount every other theory on Demandreds identity as wrong. I know that RJ disabused us of the theory long ago, and it was later confirmed in the text, but my right brain just won't accept any alternatives. INtellectually, Roedran makes the most sense, but the scope seems wrong... tin-pot King of a crappy country, compaired to lesser Chosen (IMO) in Andor/Tear/Illian.

 

Taimandred, I wish I knew how to quit you.

 

lol. Taimandred was the reason I hunted down the theory sites when I first got internet in 2004. I was sad to see it had been debunked, and briefly tried to logic my way around the RJ quotes as so many others have done. But I got over it. I was highly resistant to Roedred until Brandon said a bunch of stuff.

[Damer Sedai]

Not for nothing, but I was SO sure that "Demandred = Taim" back in the 90s when I was young and foolish (or at least slightly more foolish than now), cemented by long arguments into the wee hours with college buddies, that I automatically and instinctively discount every other theory on Demandreds identity as wrong. I know that RJ disabused us of the theory long ago, and it was later confirmed in the text, but my right brain just won't accept any alternatives. INtellectually, Roedran makes the most sense, but the scope seems wrong... tin-pot King of a crappy country, compaired to lesser Chosen (IMO) in Andor/Tear/Illian.

 

Taimandred, I wish I knew how to quit you.

 

lol. Taimandred was the reason I hunted down the theory sites when I first got internet in 2004. I was sad to see it had been debunked, and briefly tried to logic my way around the RJ quotes as so many others have done. But I got over it. I was highly resistant to Roedred until Brandon said a bunch of stuff.

 

Heh.. thanks. Its good to know I wasn't the only one.

 

Tai'Shar, Theoryland.

[Gythwyn]

Personally, taking into account that Demandred likes Proxies, and that his 'rule' is secure, I think whoever he has been hiding as, I think he's put subconscious orders in specific people through a form of compulsion. Sleeper agents as it were.

 

May even include Timolan tbf.

 

No evidence, just that it seems sneaky enough to do!

[Terez]

Problem is, we've never seen Demandred use Compulsion. He might not be very good at it, or he might have some sort of personal aversion to using it.

[Gythwyn]

True, but if memory serves me (and I haven't done a reread for a while, I should really get round to it) we've not seen much of Demandred, only in FS meetings where he wouldn't use it.

 

Still, only odd weeks!

[jmniles]

I liked the Roedred theory from the first. Well liked is a strong term; found it most plausible. I just don't see Demandred being able to impersonate a clan chief. On top of that, I think Roedred would be more likely because he could launch on attack on Illian thus pulling more of the coalition forces away when Rand has them march. However, if Demandred were Roedred, why would he go to FoM? Rand would spot him as soon as he saw him.

[TootThatHorn]

I liked the Roedred theory from the first. Well liked is a strong term; found it most plausible. I just don't see Demandred being able to impersonate a clan chief. On top of that, I think Roedred would be more likely because he could launch on attack on Illian thus pulling more of the coalition forces away when Rand has them march. However, if Demandred were Roedred, why would he go to FoM? Rand would spot him as soon as he saw him.

 

I was thinking all these things, and he may go to the fields because he wants Rand to recognize him; I wouldn't put it past him.

[jmniles]

I liked the Roedred theory from the first. Well liked is a strong term; found it most plausible. I just don't see Demandred being able to impersonate a clan chief. On top of that, I think Roedred would be more likely because he could launch on attack on Illian thus pulling more of the coalition forces away when Rand has them march. However, if Demandred were Roedred, why would he go to FoM? Rand would spot him as soon as he saw him.

 

I was thinking all these things, and he may go to the fields because he wants Rand to recognize him; I wouldn't put it past him.

 

But if he does go Rand just ends him right there. There is no way Demandred could stand toe to toe with post VoG Rand.

[herid]

Roedran doesn't have to actually show up at FOM. It may be some plot to divert Elayne. His communications on the matter are suspicious. He didn't respond to Egwene's invitation including her offer of gateway (TOM, Ch 56). yet he agreed to Elayne's offer and expressed anger that he needs her help.

 

 

“Roedran will come,” Balwer said, his voice thin and precise. “The Queen of Andor has sent for him, promising him gateways made by those Kinswomen of hers. Our eyes in his court say he is angry that he needs her help to attend, but is insistent that he needs to be at this meeting—if only so he doesn’t look left out.”

--AMOL, CH 1

This sounds fishy. Plus there is a small outside chance that Demandred is not Roedran himself but rather somebody close to Roedran and controlling him.

[jmniles]

Roedran doesn't have to actually show up at FOM. It may be some plot to divert Elayne. His communications on the matter are suspicious. He didn't respond to Egwene's invitation including her offer of gateway (TOM, Ch 56). yet he agreed to Elayne's offer and expressed anger that he needs her help.

 

 

“Roedran will come,” Balwer said, his voice thin and precise. “The Queen of Andor has sent for him, promising him gateways made by those Kinswomen of hers. Our eyes in his court say he is angry that he needs her help to attend, but is insistent that he needs to be at this meeting—if only so he doesn’t look left out.”

--AMOL, CH 1

This sounds fishy. Plus there is a small outside chance that Demandred is not Roedran himself but rather somebody close to Roedran and controlling him.

 

I was under the impression that we would have had to know who this person is or at the very least know the position that they hold to guess who really is Roederan. Unless I'm forgetting a person who was mentioned by Talmanes or something (and this is a very real possibility, I'm working on my first read through in a while) then it isn't somebody close to him.

[herid]

well, I've always thought that it would have made a great deal more sense for Demandred to place himself next to Roedran instead of impersonating him directly (especially in view of that proxies comment about him by Sammael) . That's what all the others (Sammael, Rhavin and Be'lal) did. By taking place of Roedran himself he has to wear a disguise all the time, know all Roedran's mannerisms and would likely still need to compel a bunch of people around Roedran. But it's certainly true that the comments by RJ and BS pretty much rule this out. as you say there hasn't been a single character named who is close to Roedran but is not him.

[Terez]

I'm not sure the 'proxies' comments was interpreted correctly in the first place. Sammael could have been referring to elements supposedly acting in Rand's name, rather than Demandred's name.

[Aver]

Has anyone suggested that General Galgan is Demandred? We know that Galgan is trying to kill Tuon (from Matts chapter in aMoL). With Tuon dead as well as the empress, Demandred would then be in control of the return. As the head of the Seanchan forces he can lead them against Rand openly whereas as an Aiel force attacking Rand is hard to believe because Rand is the chief of chiefs. Aiel attacking Rand does not make sense unless they are darkfriends or Shaido. A seanchan force would work because they are already at war with Rand. Demandred probably has proxies in Shara and maybe Murandy. Proxies among Rand, probably at least one Aiel chief or a wise one, or maybe even Bashere or Dobraine could keep an eye on Rand which explains that quote. Galgan is tall, and if Demandred were Galgan it would fit the Demandred is a general ticket because he would be commanding one of thee most powerful armies available.

 

Also Mesanna kills the empress which would aid Demandred in taking over the return, and they are allies of each other. Semirhage was also posing as a Seanchan.

 

Graendal thought it plausible for him to be in the east with the borderlanders but maybe this was a misdirection and he has really been in the west with the Seanchan

 

maybe Demandred freed Taim from capture and trained him in order to use him as a proxy who could get close to Rand

 

We don't see Galgan until the Knife of Dreams

[Aquarius]

Galgan has been proposed here and there as a possible Demmy. But it seems hard core fans don't like this idea very much. it seems it never gained much traction. Let's be honest with this: there's so much anticipation going on that whatever Demandred's been up to, we will be disapointed.

[BFG]

If somehow they can work in that Demandred has been Bashere all along, and managed to convince a goodly % oF Rands armies that he's a false dragon that needs destroying and can do all of this without breaking the fourth wall than I promise not to be disappointed. Since I don't see any way this is possible, I reluctantly agree that it's likely to be Roedran.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Galgan has been ruled out, not because people don't like it.

 

Brandon has said we did not see Demandred's alter-ego on screen in ToM.

 

Galgan appeared in ToM.

[Sotir Tilev]

Honestly said my favorite Demandred theory was with him being Taim or Taim being his proxy( with or without complusion used on him for that purpose). After this theory was completely shut down by "By grace and banners fallen", I suppose I should relate to my 2nd favourite Demandred theor, which is him to be Roedran. However I grow to like it less and less with any moment, I don't know for what reason. So I am still considering few options about who Demandred could be, or who he is controling at this moment of the series and I stil don't have good answer to give myself.

 

However, I type because this thread is interesting enought, the theory of him being/controling Roedran or Timolan. Both are interesting enough theories, but I have one thing against each of the theories, which I didn't saw mentioned in the thread( have in mind I've readed about only half of it, it's so long...)

 

1. First... about the Roedran theory. I just don't see enough edge in Roedran to consider him good pretendent to be Demandred. Maybe Demandred is too smart and he is keeping quiet, but I don't think so. It isn't in his style to be quiet. Subtle yes, but quiet - I don't think so. His biggest motivation to move to the Shadow side was because he wanted recognition and respect. He don't seem changed when we have the opportunity to see him on screen, so I expect the same behavior from him to be recognizable in his proxy. None of that about Roedran as far as we know. He were some barely known lord, he managed to become a king, yes, but we've seen stranger things happen in the world of the Wheel of Time since Rand al-Thor is romaing out there. And Roedran is playing it too passive in world's politics. His corespondention with Egwene is... not impressive at all. His actions( or lack of actions) since the whole thing started are just disapointing. I don't think Roedran could be Demandred, he doesn't blend enough to cover Demandred way of things. I cannot recognize any of Demandred's characteristics in Roedran, except Roedran great-general-wanna-be, which isn't that unique in a world in which the politics and the wars determine each one fates.

 

2. The Timolan theory. Wel... think about it. If Demandred is playing Timolan, how he can play perfectly Aiel chief. Yes, the Chiefs aren't kings, they are "the most wise among the people", they are just ordinary men with unordinary responsibilites. Yes, they don't lack extraordinary qualities, but still they aren't seen as very different that ordinary men by their people. And that it's where Demandred would fail to deliver - in every day life as Aiel Chief, interacting with countless Aiels, who think of him almost equal to them and so they expect him to behave in very earthy manner, and in the same time to be wise and to behave better than them when it comes to Aiel customs and ji-e-toh, and even to determine the course of clan's ji-e-toh. It's all about that - there is no way Demandret to be able to learn how to behave like AIel chief without to do countless mistakes now and then, and eventually to get cought to be poser. You don't learn to be Aiel, you are born Aiel. Yes, Rand and Egwene pretty much became half-Aiel, but they still make mistakes about ji-e-toh, they still have so much to learn about Aiel and they way of life. You don't simply become Aiel. And another one thing - to be Aiel chief would be too much time consuming for Demandred, and I imagine that he have bigger plans than one Aiel clan.

 

And another one thing, again about his pride. Rand have many Aiel clans, at least 8 beneath his banner if I am not mistaken. Demandred wouldn't satisfy to lose all that time to prepare for the Last Battle and just controling one clas. It would embaras him grealy Lews Therin to have 8 clans againts only one for him. Do you imagine a person who is so jealous to Lews Therin to end up in such kind of situation - to voluntearly place himself so much below his opponent? I don't think so. No one from the male Forsakend would do this, and at least from all Demandred. Never Demandred.

 

And don't get bored, because here comes the most important part, or at least I view it as such. There are many Wise Ones which can enter TAR. They know about the Forsaken, it wouldn't be too much if we say they should even encountered some of them in the Dream. Don't you think they would be able figure out who Timolan realy is? Or don't you think they could figure it out just by entering his tens while he is asleep and he is in TAR? They could find out with Egwene after all, and it was prety easy for them. Yeah, the circumistances aren't the same, but only one little mistake and Demandred is dead. I don't think he would risk being killed by Aiel, which in his Age wouldn't be able even to defend themselves from him. It would be shameful for Demandred, he wouldn't risk to be ashamed by such a thing, not at all.

 

And since I am in opinion none of Roedran and Timolan is disguised Demandred, I don't even think they are his minions, except maybe a little chance that Roedran could be after all his minion, I come to the other point of my post.

 

You are arguing which one of them could be his minion of he isn't them personaly. I want to ask you this question, and have in mind I do it just for the sake of the discussion: why do you think he is obliged to be only one of them, when he can control both? I mean if you can Timolan to dance for you, you surely can make Roedran to do the same. Not surely the other way round, but if you can make Aiel be your puppet, then you can make some regular folk, no matter king or not, to be your minion too. Why to take only one apple when you can have both? Just like that.

 

Or he maybe doesn't control neither of them. It's big read and find out here. I don't think we can figure it out and being sure about it, before the book is actually out, life and health.

[yoniy0]

Well we know that it is possible to figure it out, both RJ and Brandon have said so. And we know that he has an alter-ego we would recognize, for a similar reason. By process of elimination we've reached Roedran (although there are other clues, it's just a bit obscure without applying meta-data), and now Timolan was suggested in the same fashion. That's why we're discussing the two of them in particular, but if you have other suggestions you're more than welcome to voice them.

[Tomp]

I've figured it out.

Demandred is Hoid.

[herid]

Honestly said my favorite Demandred theory was with him being Taim or Taim being his proxy( with or without complusion used on him for that purpose). After this theory was completely shut down by "By grace and banners fallen", I suppose I should relate to my 2nd favourite Demandred theor, which is him to be Roedran. However I grow to like it less and less with any moment, I don't know for what reason. So I am still considering few options about who Demandred could be, or who he is controling at this moment of the series and I stil don't have good answer to give myself.

 

However, I type because this thread is interesting enought, the theory of him being/controling Roedran or Timolan. Both are interesting enough theories, but I have one thing against each of the theories, which I didn't saw mentioned in the thread( have in mind I've readed about only half of it, it's so long...)

 

1. First... about the Roedran theory. I just don't see enough edge in Roedran to consider him good pretendent to be Demandred. Maybe Demandred is too smart and he is keeping quiet, but I don't think so. It isn't in his style to be quiet. Subtle yes, but quiet - I don't think so. His biggest motivation to move to the Shadow side was because he wanted recognition and respect. He don't seem changed when we have the opportunity to see him on screen, so I expect the same behavior from him to be recognizable in his proxy. None of that about Roedran as far as we know. He were some barely known lord, he managed to become a king, yes, but we've seen stranger things happen in the world of the Wheel of Time since Rand al-Thor is romaing out there. And Roedran is playing it too passive in world's politics. His corespondention with Egwene is... not impressive at all. His actions( or lack of actions) since the whole thing started are just disapointing. I don't think Roedran could be Demandred, he doesn't blend enough to cover Demandred way of things. I cannot recognize any of Demandred's characteristics in Roedran, except Roedran great-general-wanna-be, which isn't that unique in a world in which the politics and the wars determine each one fates.

 

2. The Timolan theory. Wel... think about it. If Demandred is playing Timolan, how he can play perfectly Aiel chief. Yes, the Chiefs aren't kings, they are "the most wise among the people", they are just ordinary men with unordinary responsibilites. Yes, they don't lack extraordinary qualities, but still they aren't seen as very different that ordinary men by their people. And that it's where Demandred would fail to deliver - in every day life as Aiel Chief, interacting with countless Aiels, who think of him almost equal to them and so they expect him to behave in very earthy manner, and in the same time to be wise and to behave better than them when it comes to Aiel customs and ji-e-toh, and even to determine the course of clan's ji-e-toh. It's all about that - there is no way Demandret to be able to learn how to behave like AIel chief without to do countless mistakes now and then, and eventually to get cought to be poser. You don't learn to be Aiel, you are born Aiel. Yes, Rand and Egwene pretty much became half-Aiel, but they still make mistakes about ji-e-toh, they still have so much to learn about Aiel and they way of life. You don't simply become Aiel. And another one thing - to be Aiel chief would be too much time consuming for Demandred, and I imagine that he have bigger plans than one Aiel clan.

 

And another one thing, again about his pride. Rand have many Aiel clans, at least 8 beneath his banner if I am not mistaken. Demandred wouldn't satisfy to lose all that time to prepare for the Last Battle and just controling one clas. It would embaras him grealy Lews Therin to have 8 clans againts only one for him. Do you imagine a person who is so jealous to Lews Therin to end up in such kind of situation - to voluntearly place himself so much below his opponent? I don't think so. No one from the male Forsakend would do this, and at least from all Demandred. Never Demandred.

 

And don't get bored, because here comes the most important part, or at least I view it as such. There are many Wise Ones which can enter TAR. They know about the Forsaken, it wouldn't be too much if we say they should even encountered some of them in the Dream. Don't you think they would be able figure out who Timolan realy is? Or don't you think they could figure it out just by entering his tens while he is asleep and he is in TAR? They could find out with Egwene after all, and it was prety easy for them. Yeah, the circumistances aren't the same, but only one little mistake and Demandred is dead. I don't think he would risk being killed by Aiel, which in his Age wouldn't be able even to defend themselves from him. It would be shameful for Demandred, he wouldn't risk to be ashamed by such a thing, not at all.

 

And since I am in opinion none of Roedran and Timolan is disguised Demandred, I don't even think they are his minions, except maybe a little chance that Roedran could be after all his minion, I come to the other point of my post.

 

You are arguing which one of them could be his minion of he isn't them personaly. I want to ask you this question, and have in mind I do it just for the sake of the discussion: why do you think he is obliged to be only one of them, when he can control both? I mean if you can Timolan to dance for you, you surely can make Roedran to do the same. Not surely the other way round, but if you can make Aiel be your puppet, then you can make some regular folk, no matter king or not, to be your minion too. Why to take only one apple when you can have both? Just like that.

 

Or he maybe doesn't control neither of them. It's big read and find out here. I don't think we can figure it out and being sure about it, before the book is actually out, life and health.

a nice well thought out post. welcome to the forums!

before you go looking for any new Demandreds I suggests two things.

First, read the quotes about Demandred in the interview database. Actually, i suggest you read the whole database. It may take a few hours but it will change your opinion on quite a few things as well as give you new ideas. I guarantee it.

Second, read terez's FAQs on Demandred. there is a lot of stuff there that you haven't considered and a lot of it addresses your objections to Roedrad too.

 

Lastly, about your argument about the Wise One Dreamwalkers and Timolan. It's a good point and it's been brought up before (although not in this thread) in a more general context. However, even though I'm sure Timolan is not Demandred, this particular argument should not be pushed too far IMO.

If you do then one has to wonder how there are any DFs among the important Aiel at all. The Wise One Dreamwalkers look into other people dreams routinely. Egwene was extremely dense when she looked into Kadere's and Isendre's dreams and didn't realize what they were. I'm sure the Wise Ones would not have made the same mistake.

They should know it and should have used their powers to look for DFs among the Aiel. They can't check everybody of course but the can certainly look among those in the position of power. Remember how Amys took Egwene into Rhuarc's dream and she saw how he viewed her? This one episode alone is proof that Rhuarc is not a DF.

 

So as I said, I don't think this kind of argument should be pushed too far even though it does look valid.