Is Demandred Timolan?

[ta'maral'ailen]

This question has been bothering me for some time now and I think I have found the solution. Before I start I would like to apologize for any incorrect language, because English isn’t my native tongue. I would first of all like to start with a footnote recently posted in the interview database and a quote straight from Robert Jordan.

 

Footnote from Interview Database

As to whether or not Demandred's alter ego has been seen on screen, Brandon himself extended RJ's comment through Knife of Dreams, and he later said that Demandred wasn't seen in Towers of Midnight at all. That, combined with this comment here where he lumps his books together makes it clear that Demandred's alter ego has never been seen on screen. (A list of characters introduced in The Gathering Storm, some of whom are disqualified by appearing in Towers of Midnight, helps to make that point.) Other comments by RJ make it clear that we should be able to figure out who it is by Winter's Heart at the latest, and Brandon has also said several times that it can be figured out from the books.

 

 

May, 2001

Marcon Report – Sorilea (Paraphrased):

RUHIRA SEDAI

We know who almost all the Forsaken are, except maybe Mesaana and Demandred. Should we be able to work out who they are?

ROBERT JORDAN

Ummm...Yeah.

 

So apparently we should be able to figure out by now who Demandred’s alter-ego is. However the alter-ego hasn’t been on-screen according to the footnote and it can’t have been anyone mentioned for the first time after WH. Which effectively kills any theory about Demandred being in Shara / Land of the Madmen / Seanchan-mainland or the Sea Folk area.

 

So having done that, we can now move on to Randland itself. Which I will split in a few groups to make it easier:

1. Anyone who originally lived between the Aryth Ocean and the Dragonwall

2. Aiel

3. Seanchan ‘immigrants’

 

Then there are the following quotes from the WOT-books themselves.

 

WH, With the Choedan Kal:

He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!

TGS, What the Storm Means:

“My rule is secure,” Demandred said simply. “I gather for war. We will be ready.”

 

Both quotes seem to point to Demandred being someone of importance and being in command somewhere. This seems to comply with the fact that Demandred used to be one of the Shadow’s important generals. If we take a look at the other Forsaken it would be quite logical to assume Demandred is somewhere in command.

So it seems Demandred has to be either a Randland ruler or commander of a Randland army (Group 1), an Aiel chief (Group 2) or a Seanchan commander (Group 3).

 

All the commanders of the Seanchan army have been on-screen and are thus excluded from suspicion. This leaves 2 groups. Of all the Randland rulers and important commanders only Roedran of Murandy hasn’t appeared on-screen and remains in our search. In Group 2 only Timolan, Clan Chief of the Miagoma Aiel, remains.

 

So the crux of this post is: Is Demandred Roedran or Timolan?

 

Roedran

Roedran is king of Murandy. A small country with rulers whose rule only extends to the city walls of Lugard. However as has been noted below, Roedran seems to have changed recently and has been capable of uniting the Murandians.

 

TPOD, A Peculiar Calling:

Egwene made a vexed sound. It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a’Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up.

 

WH, A Cup of Tea

In Lugard, King Roedran was gathering every noble who would bring armsmen, and a city already worried about two great armies camped near the border with Andor, one full of Aes Sedai and the other full of Andorans, now also worried about what a dissolute wastrel like Roedran intended.

 

KOD, As If The World Were Fog

“Do you recognize it?” Talmanes said. “It is from your book. King Roedran has two copies in his library. He has it memorized. The man thinks it will make him a great captain. He was so pleased with how our bargain worked out that he had a copy printed and bound for me.”

 

These are the few quotes that are available in the WOT-books. Roedran does seem to be interested in warfare. I would furthermore like to point to Terez’ theory concerning Roedran being Demandred. It is more detailed than my description above. (https://docs.google....t5KMqMAX609ADPg) It certainly is a plausible theory.

 

However I personally find Roedran being Demandred unsatisfying. If only for this quote from Brandon:

 

Dec 19th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - wolfbro22 (Paraphrased)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Went to the signing in Idaho Falls today and asked BS if we had seen Demandred's alter ego on screen and he gave me a R.A.F.O. card and said that Demandred's identity is the biggest secret in the series and will pay off in the end.

 

Roedran seems somehow too insignificant after such a quote.

 

Timolan

One of the first things we learn about Timolan is that he tried to become the Car’a’carn. However, he failed. It reminds me of how Demandred always came up second after Lews Therin.

 

TFoH, Rhuidean

“When Timolan was young as a chief,” Jheran said, “he tried to unite the clans and failed. It will not sit well with him that at last one has come to succeed where he failed.”

 

During the series it becomes obvious that Timolan is the most obstinate of the Clan Chiefs.

 

LOC, The Sending

“Five thousand from different societies; a few more than five. I could not bring many. Timolan was suspicious as it is that I did not go with him against the Shaido. If it becomes common knowledge that Aes Sedai hold the Car’a’carn, I fear the bleakness will swallow us all.” [Rhuarc]

 

ACoS, Hill of the Golden Dawn

“Timolan mutters that if the tales are true, you have betrayed us, and he will take the Miagoma back to the Three-fold Land. After he sees you dead. Mandelain and Janwin hold their counsel, but they listen to Indirian and Timolan.” [Amys]

 

TGS, The Death of Adrin

“I did not say they were right, Wise One,” Aviendha said. A group of soldiers were hesitantly trying to pry up the glassy black mound. It appeared to have fused to the ground. Aviendha lowered her voice. “They are wrong to question the Car’a’carn, but they are speaking to one another. Rand al’Thor needs to realize that they will not accept offense after offense from him without end. They may not turn against him like the Shaido, but I would not put it past Timolan –for instance- to simply return to the Three-fold Land and leave the Car’a’carn to his arrogance.

 

Furthermore Timolan can be more easily replaced than any of the other clan chiefs, because he doesn’t have a wife.

 

ACoS, As the Plow Breaks the Earth

Mandelain set his cup down with exaggerated care. "Corehuin wishes to see Jair again before the dream ends, and so do I." Like Bael and Rhuarc, he had two wives; the other chiefs had only one each, except Timolan, but a widowed chief seldom remained so long.

 

I would like to point out that Timolan meets all the requirements. He has never been on-screen (he has only been mentioned), he has been known to us since The Fires of Heaven, he’s a commander of a considerable force (an entire Aiel clan) and is in an excellent position to undermine any of Rand’s plans.

 

There are two quotes, which I think relate quite nice to each other.

 

ACoS, Unseen Eyes

"There is a thing children do," Melaine said carefully after a time. Her pregnancy did not show yet, but already she had the inner radiance, making her even more beautiful than usual, and an inward, unshakable calm “Children all want to push spears, and they all want to be the clan chief, but eventually they realize that the clan chief seldom dances the spears himself. So they make a figure and set it on a rise." Off to one side the floor suddenly mounded up, no longer stone tiles but a ridge of sun-baked brown rock. Atop it stood a shape vaguely like a man, made of twisted twigs and bits of cloth. "This is the clan chief who commands them to dance the spears from the hill where he can see the battle. But the children run where they will, and their clan chief is only a figure of sticks and rags”

 

WH, With the Choedan Kal:

He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded! [Demandred]

 

As to Timolan being in an excellent position, I would like to refer to yet another quote:

 

WH, Wonderful News:

“You were responsible for watching him, Osan’gar,” she (Aran’gar) went on, her voice caressing every syllable. “You, and Demandred.”

 

Osan’gar’s alter ego was pretty close to Rand and he was apparently ordered to watch him, if Demandred was ordered to watch Rand too, how close was Demandred’s alter ego to Rand?

 

Semirhage (side-note)

(What I'm saying here about Semirhage is extra and could just as well be not related to Demandred at all.)The Forsaken in this Age are rather arrogant in their behavior towards the so-called ‘savages’ (i.e. everyone) of this Age. Their behavior to the Aiel is a bit different. They’re just very surprised by the ferocity and willingness to kill of the contemporary Aiel. Beyond using them as a tool to create chaos (Sammeal) they don't seem to be interested in them at all. So when Semirhage seems to know some peculiar details of their culture –see quote below, I was surprised. I therefore think Semirhage learned some interesting stuff about the Aiel via Demandred posing as Timolan.

 

TGS, A Box Opens

Semirhage reacted no further. Her control was back, her face serene, her eyes imperious. “I have heard some little of you new, oathless Aiel and your interpretations of honor. I will very much enjoy investigating how much pain and suffering it will require before members of your clans will shame themselves. Tell me, how far do you think I would have to push before one of you would kill a blacksmith and dine on his flesh?”

 

Overall positioning

All in all, I think Demandred is Timolan. It would be a massive blow to both the Aiel and Rand if anything happened to an entire Aiel clan (it doesn’t matter whether they all turn against Rand or just leave the battlefield). The positioning of the Mesaana, Semirhage and Demandred would be great too. Each one of them has infiltrated another centre of power. Mesaana in the White Tower, Semirhage with the Seanchan and Demandred with the Aiel. The quote below kind of directed me to think of Demandred infiltrating the Aiel.

 

LOC, The First Message:

“When I think where you two (Semirhage and Messaana) have placed yourselves, I wonder. How much has the Great Lord known, for how long?”

[yoniy0]

Oh, you've made the font smaller on purpose. I thought I was loosing my mind. Anyhow:

 

A very interesting idea. This is perhaps the strongest piece of evidence to support it:

As to Timolan being in an excellent position, I would like to refer to yet another quote:

WH, Wonderful News:

“You were responsible for watching him, Osan’gar,” she (Aran’gar) went on, her voice caressing every syllable. “You, and Demandred.”

But does the rest fit? Yes, we get some clues that Timolan is reluctant, but do you think Demandred could pull this off? Not having a wife to contend with isn't everything; there are still WO and others who'd know Timolan quite well. And of course, Timolan's youthful attempt to unite the clans couldn't be related to Demandred's impersonating him, except as motive (i.e., to be used as an excuse for why he doesn't like Rand).

[herid]

It can't be Timolan for the simple reason that he does show up on screen once in Egwene's POV in LOC, ch 24.

 

 

On the other hand, she was hardly up to returning to the city. She joined the Wise Ones in their sweat tent—for once they did not make her pour water over the hot rocks; Rodera did that—luxuriating in the damp heat as it relaxed her muscles, and only left because Rhuarc and two other clan chiefs, Timolan of the Miagoma and Indirian of the Codarra, joined them, tall massive graying men with hard sober faces. That sent her diving out of the tent to hastily wrap her shawl around her.

[ta'maral'ailen]

I read the chapter and I was in doubt indeed whether or not Timolan came on screen. However, I do not think that Timolan actually appears on screen in this chapter. If you look at the context it still seems as if Timolan stays off screen, which in my eyes is sufficient to support my theory.

[herid]

It says clearly that Egwene left after Timolan and the other chiefs came in. Even their descriptions and facial expressions are given which means that they intersected with Egwene in the tent.

[ta'maral'ailen]

@yoniy0: I do think Demandred would be capable of conducting such a plan. The Timolan having no wife and attempt at becoming Car'a'carn are indeed meant as motives for Demandred to replace him and not someone else. The most compelling argument for me for this theory is simply the process of elimination as described above. I think that Demandred posing as Timolan would be far more impressive than Demandred posing as Roedran. I wouldn't find it a "big secret" as Brandon says if Demandred happens to be Roedran.

[ta'maral'ailen]

@herid: well, then it seems we disagree.

[Luckers]

I agree with ta'maral'ailen--a reference to a person and an interaction is not to see that character on screen.

 

As for the idea, I like the newness of it, but like Yoni I don't see the gain of full time Chosen presence.

[herid]

I agree with ta'maral'ailen--a reference to a person and an interaction is not to see that character on screen.

Really? what is being on screen then? A character doesn't need to speak to be on screen. Egwene is in the sweat tent. Timolan comes in, she looks at him, comments on his appearance and leaves because he is there and she is embarrassed. That's being on screen in my book.

[Durinax]

I like it just for the fact that no Forsaken has infiltrated the Aiel. But I am still holding to the roedran side

[Luckers]

I agree with ta'maral'ailen--a reference to a person and an interaction is not to see that character on screen.

Really? what is being on screen then? A character doesn't need to speak to be on screen. Egwene is in the sweat tent. Timolan comes in, she looks at him, comments on his appearance and leaves because he is there and she is embarrassed. That's being on screen in my book.

 

Egwene references the interaction, rather than witnessing it. It's entirely in the abstract--i.e. not 'Egwene looked at them. They were massive men, with greying hair'--Egwene experiences the interaction, and then in present tense relays it to the reader, but the reader themselves are not witnessing it, they are being told of it by Egwene.

[herid]

ok, I see what you are saying but this still counts as being onscreen in my book.

[Aulduron]

I'm thinking that if we were watching that scene on screen, Timoan would have been on that screen. Unless, maybe, she was recounting it.

[What's a Seawolf?]

As said above, I love this idea, especially for the newness of it.

 

It has always seemed a little odd that the Aiel were the one group no forsaken ever tried to infiltrate (that we know of.) Granted, they're probably the hardest of any of the WoT groups to manipulate (although, if the above theory is true, I suppose a group of darkfriend Wise One's in Timolan's clan would solve one issue. There has to be more darkfriends among the Aiel. Compulsion could take care of some other higher ups that would have known the original Timolan well.)

 

Of course, the other side of the coin is the Shaido, who could be seen as fullfilling the manipulated part of the Aiel, even if the forsaken never had anyone on the inside.

 

Still, great idea. Dem taking over part of the 'People of the Dragon' seems like it would definitely fit his hatred of LTT as well.

[Amandera]

Demandred being Timolan means he has placed himself under Rand. I don't think his ego could handle being second to LTT again.

 

As to Timolan being in an excellent position, I would like to refer to yet another quote:

WH, Wonderful News:

“You were responsible for watching him, Osan’gar,” she (Aran’gar) went on, her voice caressing every syllable. “You, and Demandred.”

This could be through Taim. Demandred could've been the one to send him Rand, and through him he could've watched Rand. Just because Osan'gar chose to be personally keeping eye on him doesn't mean Demandred is doing the same thing.

[elmis]

I like the idea too, at least it's fresh. With regards to the sweat tent incident, I could easily see that as being overlooked by RJ at some signing. That said, have we ever seen a Forsaken assume command in this fashion? All the others have been in charge but used the existing people their as strawmen. Why would Demandred be any different?

 

The rulers:

Be'lal - Lord Samon - Tear

Ravin - Lord Gaebril - Andor

Sammael - Lord Brend - Illian

Graendal - Lady Basene - Arad Doman

Semirhage - Anath - Sanchean

Aran'gar - Halima - Salidar Aes Sedai

Mesaana - Danelle - Tower Aes Sedai

Demandred - ??

 

The others:

Asmodean - Lanfears bitch

Lanfear - Doing her own thing

Osan'gar - Dashiva, not really sure what his plan was

Moghedien - Doing her own thing (started out as Gyldin the servant to try and snatch the Domination Band and leash Rand, then everything went downhill from there).

Moridin - Nae'blis

 

Out of all of these the Danelle situation seems the one that would be most like Demandreds if he really is Timolan, as she has assumed the personae of an "existing person". That said, Danelle was chosen because she had few friends even within her own Ajah, and is described as solitary. That would Mesaana with room to maneuver when she wanted.

 

To me, it seems to be a lot more hassle to impersonate a Clan Chief, that has been chief for several years.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Personally I hope it's not this as I already have this particular t-shirt with Shaido written on it. Aiel are so one dimensional that when they go against the grain it sucks and makes for rubbish reading. What Aielman or woman would hurt another Aiel now? They all know the score, what is happening, better than any other people. The last battle is coming. They are not going to suddenly start sticking spears into other good guys based on some order by some chief, not now, now that the CarnyCarnCarn is here,

[Mik]

That's a great theory, ta'maral'ailen!

I don't think I ever saw this suggested online in the past 10 years.

And you present it with very decent reasoning.

 

Just comparing Timolan & Roedran here:

 

Two reasons why I like this theory better:

1. I think I like this theory slightly better in relation to the strategic position of Demandred in relation to Rand's story arc & where Semi & Messy were stationed.

the Aiel are better fighters, the Aiel are Lews Therin's people. The Aiel just make more sense to me, story-wise.

 

2. The Aiel have always fought eachother during the past centuries. If the clan-chief points, they punch. Fighting is what they do…untill the dream ends.

I think it's much more reasonable to expect an Aiel army to attack other clans or wetlanders when their clan-chief tells them to. It’s fairly easy to start a blood feud, for instance… as a matter of fact, there have been so many blood feuds between clans, it’s regarded as normal to the Aiel.

As a reader, I think I would accept it if a Forsaken would trick a Clan into fighting on the wrong side on the Last Day with some clever writing, whereas I can hardly see an army of wetlanders get away with this, unless they are bat-shit crazy…and even that would feel like Deux-e-M.

 

 

Two reasons why I like the Roedran theory better:

1. I like it slightly less (in comparison with Roedran), because I think it's very hard (understatement) to impersonate Aiel Clan Chief behaviour for basically an 'AoL' person and that it's hardly a place where you can 'build an army'; the army is already there. A counterpoint is that Semi pulled it off as a Seanchan, but I think the Seanchan way-of-life actually makes it easy for the Shadow to infiltrate (because of the rigid structure of lowering eyes etc), whereas that is not the case with Aiel culture. Anyway....overall I think it’s unlikely Demandred could pull it off.

 

2. There was a hint about Demandreds clothing somewhere. About him adapting to the style of this Age easily with grey clothing. Something like that. That doesn’t hint at Timolan at all, but it could hint at Roedran (although, truth be told, there isn’t a strong link between that clothing hint & Roedran either, I think).

 

All in all, I salute you for coming up with this so late in the story! *salutes*

 

 

They are not going to suddenly start sticking spears into other good guys based on some order by some chief, not now, now that the CarnyCarnCarn is here,

Start a blood fued, or insult another clan chief / wise woman to the bone… I think it’s easy.

It’s actually way easier to see this happening then that Demandred pulls together an army of wetlanders to fight on the wrong side on the Last Day, me thinks.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Yes, I can accept that theoretically it is possible but really? The Aiel seem so clued in, they know it's the end times, would they fall for it? I thought that the whole Caracarn reveal and subsequent PTSD the whole race went through then add to that the Shaido and the amount of Aiel that just put their spears down, put paid to any further reduction in the number of Aiel on the good side..

[Mik]

Yes, I can accept that theoretically it is possible but really? The Aiel seem so clued in, they know it's the end times, would they fall for it?

You answer your own question:

I thought that the whole Caracarn reveal and subsequent PTSD the whole race went through then add to that the Shaido and the amount of Aiel that just put their spears down, put paid to any further reduction in the number of Aiel on the good side..

We've already seen a whole clan go down the wrong road, because of Forsaken influence on just the leadership of that Clan. Almost all of the Shaido (some Maidens excempt, I think it was), followed their Clan chief down a slippery slope downhill into shadow.

We've already seen the Aiel reject all of what they do & are -of how usefull they could be at the last Battle-, because of having shamed themselves to the core. They now wear white.

 

The Aiel are so easy to manipulate into conflict, regardless of what common sense dictates, it's almost beyond stoopid noone came up with Timolan before!

When comparing Roedran & Timolan, it's easier and more plausable for Timolan to come up with an army that would do battle for him against Rand's forces, I think.

 

Some years ago, I had no clue who Demandred was.

Then the Roedran Theory came along...and I thought that was plausable. (the only plausable theory, actually at that point)

Now Timolan comes along... and I think that on the whole is just as plausable, right now.

 

I'm on the fence...and I can't wait for more arguments to be thrown into the frenzy!

 

*salutes Ta'maral'ailen again*

Thanks man.

It's great to have a fresh idea like this to be able to entertain the thought for a while again.

It's been so long ago.

[Sharaman]

Interesting but apart from the on-screen appearance in LoC, the Aiel are indeed terribly difficult to penetrate. Their family ties are very intricate, understanding Toh is impossible for an outsider and always liable to trip up outsiders. Also, the WOs watch clan chiefs like a bunch of hawks and also badger them. Any minor slips or changes in behaviour would be noted, not only by WO but also by other clan chiefs and sub-chiefs who interact continuously. It would also be difficult to Compel entire bunches of female channelers to overlook changes in a chief's personality since they all hang together all the time. Demandred would have had to study the Aiel in great detail and find a way to replace Timolan seamlessly.

[Terez]

It can't be Timolan for the simple reason that he does show up on screen once in Egwene's POV in LOC, ch 24.

 

 

On the other hand, she was hardly up to returning to the city. She joined the Wise Ones in their sweat tent—for once they did not make her pour water over the hot rocks; Rodera did that—luxuriating in the damp heat as it relaxed her muscles, and only left because Rhuarc and two other clan chiefs, Timolan of the Miagoma and Indirian of the Codarra, joined them, tall massive graying men with hard sober faces. That sent her diving out of the tent to hastily wrap her shawl around her.

 

Agreed, that counts as on screen. Aside from that, the theory doesn't make much sense, Aiel clan chiefs don't "rule", it ties in with nothing else that we know Demandred has been up to, etc. But some people will do anything to remain in denial.

[Luckers]

It can't be Timolan for the simple reason that he does show up on screen once in Egwene's POV in LOC, ch 24.

 

 

On the other hand, she was hardly up to returning to the city. She joined the Wise Ones in their sweat tent—for once they did not make her pour water over the hot rocks; Rodera did that—luxuriating in the damp heat as it relaxed her muscles, and only left because Rhuarc and two other clan chiefs, Timolan of the Miagoma and Indirian of the Codarra, joined them, tall massive graying men with hard sober faces. That sent her diving out of the tent to hastily wrap her shawl around her.

 

Agreed, that counts as on screen. Aside from that, the theory doesn't make much sense, Aiel clan chiefs don't "rule", it ties in with nothing else that we know Demandred has been up to, etc. But some people will do anything to remain in denial.

 

Is that directed at me? I'm assuming so given that I was the one to sustain the validicy of the point in a functional manner. If it was... I don't understand... I was one of the first proponents of the Roedran theory. I did prefer the 'many fingers, many pots' idea and that he had no alter-ego--and I know you liked that concept at one point--but since that seems ruled out Roedran does seem the most likely--though I dislike it, and do not feel it will be satisfying. But then, I feel the same about the Bodyswap, and I sustain that as the most likely to occur based on the evidence at hand.

 

But then, unlike Theorylanders, I don't feel the need to catagorically dismiss theories simply because they contradict what I think to be the likely answer--I know it's pissed Matt off [in a fun playful way]--he so wanted me to take a side on things, and was frustrated when I simply offered analysis of the probability on things. I sustain Roedran as most likely, but can acknowledge that technically, based on the literary devices used, Timolan was not on screen, and is thus viable. By the same note I can concede that whilst I believe the Bodyswap to be the best literal answer to the prophecies in question about Rand's death I can see the Pulled From TAR theories validicy, and even state that thematically I would prefer it.

[Tenesmus]

It will end up being Roedran. He is mentioned in Chapter 1, and is being set up for something. at the FOM. At the pace this last book will need to flow, it would be too jarring for it to be anyone else. Shara is even looking less likley. We got a hint of red viels in TOM, so if something was coming out of Shara, we would have been given a tiny glimpse in either TGS or TOM. Maybe Shara comes after TLB, when all has been torn asunder.

[Luckers]

[Roedran] is mentioned in Chapter 1

 

Funnily enough, when chapter one came out Terez and I both agreed that had Jordan written that reference it almost certainly would have ment Roedran wasn't Demandred.

 

I do agree though, under Brandon that reference does make it likely Demandred is Roedran.