Most infuriating moment/topic in the books

[Viperswhip]

For me, the Seanchan in general, but the Damane more specifically, Tuon's casual attitude towards breaking a woman's spirit, and Mat not wanting to stab her the moment she said it.

 

Anything involving Faile, or Cad. In the earlier books I did not like the bitchy super girls, but Nyn and Elayne have really come around. As much as I loved Egwene's TGS arc, her moment with Rand was cringe worthy. I am not amongst those who think it was out of character either.

 

Rand getting kidnapped.

 

There are long stretches of the books that I did not enjoy but they were not cringe worth, just super dull.

 

With regards to Avi; I think RJ had other stuff to focus on, it gave Elayne a confident and Avi will play real large in TMOL with regards to the Aiel. I think it is pretty clear that as Amys is the heir to Sorliea's dominance, Avi will be Amys' choice to come after her.

[Yosarian]

For me, the Seanchan in general, but the Damane more specifically, Tuon's casual attitude towards breaking a woman's spirit, and Mat not wanting to stab her the moment she said it.

 

Mat wants to save Tuon, to teach her that Damane are people. I think he's going to succeed.

[Viperswhip]

After she has been involved in breaking at least one Aes Sedai. I am a very judgement fire and brimstone for bad people person, so there is no forgiveness in me for Tuon or any Sul'dam, much as I don't care if you were beaten as a child and turned into a child beater you still deserve an axe to the head.

[Yosarian]

After she has been involved in breaking at least one Aes Sedai. I am a very judgement fire and brimstone for bad people person, so there is no forgiveness in me for Tuon or any Sul'dam, much as I don't care if you were beaten as a child and turned into a child beater you still deserve an axe to the head.

 

That's fine. However, it's not that simple; I'm pretty sure that if Mat and Rand don't get the help of the Senchean in the Last Battle, they lose.

[Tyler Glembo]

After she has been involved in breaking at least one Aes Sedai. I am a very judgement fire and brimstone for bad people person, so there is no forgiveness in me for Tuon or any Sul'dam, much as I don't care if you were beaten as a child and turned into a child beater you still deserve an axe to the head.

 

But in the Seanchan society you are raised to believe that you are a good person for correctly handling damane, namely leashing them and treating them like pets. Tuon and all the Sul'dam have cultural mores that let them know that by breaking Aes Sedai or raising a damane they are doing good and are good people for it. They know, deep down, that without their good works in leashing the horrible evil that is unchecked power, society would crumble and order could not be restored. They believe they are doing good.

[Viperswhip]

There is some who believe in basic laws of morality, that we, at some level know right from wrong. I hope I am one of these people, but yep, I was not raised in a house where tyranny was the rule. My Dad...ummm, at least used to hate gay people, but after we nearly came to blows when he finally said it out loud he has moderated quite a bit.

 

Still, there is enough science on mob mentality that you are probably right.

[Morden]

Murandy is trivial at best.

why does everyone say that murandy is trivial?

The fact that they are still an entity says a lot, especially since Andor hasn't been able to seize large amounts of their land.

 

because most of the kingdoms are trivial outside 50miles of their capital. the whole of randland is basically greek city states, with the exception of andor and the borderlands, the rest talk a big game but always try and hold land they cannot support or hope to control, even andor has more land than it can hope to control...

 

myself I find the idea that most of these lands fielding armies as large as they do kinda ridiculous but we dont really see much of the world, maybe they have these massive population centres which allows them to field more than the usual 2-5% of the population as soldiers (its a pre-industrial civilization afterall, so they would struggle to field more.)

[Morden]

After she has been involved in breaking at least one Aes Sedai. I am a very judgement fire and brimstone for bad people person, so there is no forgiveness in me for Tuon or any Sul'dam, much as I don't care if you were beaten as a child and turned into a child beater you still deserve an axe to the head.

 

Tuon didnt really break her at all, she was pretty much starving herself to death and already broken before Tuon took control of caring for her and turned her around, yes none of us like how the seanchan think of channelers, but most of the sul'dam seem a lot more vicious than Tuon is towards them.

[Mr Ares]

Yes, I'm sure if the Queen decided to march to war against the TR, I'm sure her plans would be thwarted by a river. Given that she has the OP, she could put an army in Emond's Field in a day - bypassing the river, ignoring the distance between Caemlyn and the TR. Maybe not a great idea, but if she decided to take on the TR, she would be hard pushed to lose.

 

I disagree, but then again not like the Two Rivers doesnt have experience fighting for its life, something Andor does not, and quite frankly Andoran half trained boys are not up to the standards of trollocs.

 

The borderlands are the only nations which have real soldiers on the whole, the rest rely on whats essentially part time soldiers, farmboys and retired veterans.

Andor's army is a core of trained soldiers supplemented by peasant levies. Perrin's army is a core of peasant levies supplemented by further peasant levies. Elayne also has more soldiers and levies.

 

And I would be surprised if anyone other than Elayne would be willing to open the gateways, which she couldnt do as she's pregnant, the rest would not get involved in such a petty war, especially not before it got back to Rand who would probably dump 50k troops there to make them stop and actually talk...

Even if no-one else helped Elayne, she has difficulty grabbing the Source, not holding it once she has it - once she has it, she can open a Gateway large enough to dump an army in the middle of the TR. I already admitted it might not be the best idea - it could leave them cut off with no lines of supply if the Gateway goes - but the TR has no way of building reliable defences. Plus, of course, she could just wait until after her babies are born to fight such a war. The TR get a few more months of freedom, then get smashed flat - Rand might well not be around any more, Perrin probably will be but might well have ceased to be ta'veren, and Elayne can channel reliably.

 

Thats assuming Taim didnt loan The Two Rivers a few hundred Asha'man which is something he would do without a moments thought it if meant weakening Andor, and he would hear about it before they had assembled more than a few thousand troops. If that happened Andor would have an army for perhaps half an hour, a few weeks after that Elayne would be assasinated.

That makes a few assumptions - firstly, just because Taim knows Elayne is mustering forces, doesn't mean he knows she is planning to attack the TR with them - she could gather sufficient forces to take out the TR before anyone had a chance to respond. Also, if Taim did loan forces to the TR, the AS would get involved, as would Rand (assuming it takes place before TG - of course, if it took place afterwards Taim would likely have ceased to be an issue, so there would be no real reason for the Asha'man to get involved). Any nation that Egwene can gather to her side will march with Andor, against the BT - which is probably most, if not all of them, save the Seanchan held lands. Also, it would almost certainly result in Taim becoming openly at odds with Rand - so I very much doubt he would decide to commit forces without serious consideration.

 

Its all a rediculous arguement though but Andor would not find it an easy task to do because of the ties the two rivers has and the forces who would like to weaken andor.

The only forces who Perrin could reliably call upon are the TR people, the Ghealdanin (although only of limited use, as Ghealdan is in chaos, so he wouldn't have most of the country), Neald & Grady (probably), and whatever other forces he's drawn to himself with the army he currently has. He likely could not count on Saldaea, Mayene, or the Whitecloaks, nor any AS support. Elayne would have Andor and Cairhien. A significant numbers advantage to her already, as well as the edge in training and actual combat experience.

 

There is some who believe in basic laws of morality, that we, at some level know right from wrong. I hope I am one of these people, but yep, I was not raised in a house where tyranny was the rule. My Dad...ummm, at least used to hate gay people, but after we nearly came to blows when he finally said it out loud he has moderated quite a bit.

 

Still, there is enough science on mob mentality that you are probably right.

Morality is a social construct, not a universal absolute.

[muddasssir]

there was a line there when they were all talking by Morgase I think where she advises Elayne to beware of taveren and than there was another line where perrin says something about the displeasure of Rand when Elayne threatens to have him executed. Point is we know it for a fact that it was an empty threat, Elayne knew it was an empty threat Morgase knew it was an empty threat hell even Perrin knew it was an empty threat. with perfect hindsight we know that Perrin and Faile got exactly what they wanted. They never wanted to be independent of Andor. They got a deal that was pretty similar to what Tuon offered Altara. That was all they wanted. They do not pay taxes to Andor. They contribute their armies when or where they want and Perrin refused to wed his children to Elayne's. What did Elayne got out of the deal? A province that never was part of her empire now thir independent statys has been confirmed and they still do not pay taxes to the queen, they will continue to stay out of the crown's authority and her writ on the area is even less than before. No one who can crush the opposition agrees to terms like that. She virtually conceded everything they wanted. Hence, it was an empty threat and Perrin and Faile treated it as such and another meaningless long post is not going to make your point valid. No Elayne gained nothing in that exchange.

[Morden]

there was a line there when they were all talking by Morgase I think where she advises Elayne to beware of taveren and than there was another line where perrin says something about the displeasure of Rand when Elayne threatens to have him executed. Point is we know it for a fact that it was an empty threat, Elayne knew it was an empty threat Morgase knew it was an empty threat hell even Perrin knew it was an empty threat. with perfect hindsight we know that Perrin and Faile got exactly what they wanted. They never wanted to be independent of Andor. They got a deal that was pretty similar to what Tuon offered Altara. That was all they wanted. They do not pay taxes to Andor. They contribute their armies when or where they want and Perrin refused to wed his children to Elayne's. What did Elayne got out of the deal? A province that never was part of her empire now thir independent statys has been confirmed and they still do not pay taxes to the queen, they will continue to stay out of the crown's authority and her writ on the area is even less than before. No one who can crush the opposition agrees to terms like that. She virtually conceded everything they wanted. Hence, it was an empty threat and Perrin and Faile treated it as such and another meaningless long post is not going to make your point valid. No Elayne gained nothing in that exchange.

 

I disagree, she gained a buffer to her western border, a state which was growing at an excellarated rate while almost every nation was shrinking, a state which was going to be a boon as far as trade goes in the very near future, ties to Ghealdon, Saldaea and the loyalty and fealty of a land who could aid her greatly in the near future, the army Perrin offers is essentially larger than any single noble house loyal to Andor by an enormous margine.

 

And she also saved face, that is something no noble can overlook let alone a queen. Had she not made the best deal possible she would have looked weak to the other Andoran nobles and they might start wondering whether they shouldnt be independant as well. Thats a bad precedent, which is why both sides were pleased by the resolution, cause if she had to put down the rebellion forcefully it would have caused her problems for generations.

 

I still think shes ungrateful overall (Perrins actions saved the lives of thousands of people who are meant to be her subjects yet she couldnt give a toss about) but tbh thats something which is very common in WoT, its like no one knows how to say thank you, you have done a great service. She thanked him for Morgase, but thats the least of the things he should be thanked for.

[Mr Ares]

there was a line there when they were all talking by Morgase I think where she advises Elayne to beware of taveren and than there was another line where perrin says something about the displeasure of Rand when Elayne threatens to have him executed. Point is we know it for a fact that it was an empty threat, Elayne knew it was an empty threat Morgase knew it was an empty threat hell even Perrin knew it was an empty threat. with perfect hindsight we know that Perrin and Faile got exactly what they wanted. They never wanted to be independent of Andor. They got a deal that was pretty similar to what Tuon offered Altara. That was all they wanted. They do not pay taxes to Andor. They contribute their armies when or where they want and Perrin refused to wed his children to Elayne's. What did Elayne got out of the deal? A province that never was part of her empire now thir independent statys has been confirmed and they still do not pay taxes to the queen, they will continue to stay out of the crown's authority and her writ on the area is even less than before. No one who can crush the opposition agrees to terms like that. She virtually conceded everything they wanted. Hence, it was an empty threat and Perrin and Faile treated it as such and another meaningless long post is not going to make your point valid. No Elayne gained nothing in that exchange.

What did Elayne gain? Well, the Queen's writ was previously non-existent in the TR. Now, a lord appointed by the queen is ruling in the TR. The freeloaders of the TR are now taxpaying citizens - while their taxes don't go to the crown, they are paying them now when they weren't before. They have acknowledged that the TR is a part of Andor. Just because you can crush the opposition, doesn't mean it's advisable - for Elayne, it would involve committing resources which could be better spent elsewhere, to little real gain. As it is, she has established a relationship with a province she previously had no hold on. In the short term, it can't be considered a crushing victory. Ten years from now? Twenty? She has sown the seeds of full Andoran control over that province. They have taken a step to being a part of Andor - a step towards progress, civilisation, and unity. The next High Lord of the TR will be Elayne's child. She has established a direct tie to the region, and put her immediate family in a position of authority over it. How well will the TR maintain their independence in the years to come? A superficial, short term analysis might show her doing little more than saving face - she had no control before, she has none now. In the long term, she has made these people Andoran citizens in fact as well as name.

[damandred]

she also gained alliance with 3 other nations widening her influance considerably, which seems like one of her goals all through ToM.

[Morden]

Another aspect to me has just opened up, something which could actually play a significant role in a few hundred years or so.

 

The TR will intermarry with Elayne's house if they can persuade their children to marry. This gives Perrins house which will remain constantly the highest ranking noble in Andor outside of the Queen...

 

What happens when Elayne dies in a few hundred years, when the TR will most likely be one of the most powerful provinces the most wealthy as they do not have to pay tax, the largest noble house with direct ties to the royal line... Elayne's direct Trakand decendents could well lose control of Andor because of the way Andoran succession works...

 

I would crease if the Aybara's ended up with one great great grand son as High Lord of the Two Rivers, and the daughter as Queen..

[Austin Arsenault]

my biggest petpeeve is that all the characters are focusing on their little personal vendettas when the end of the world is coming up.

[Suttree]

my biggest petpeeve is that all the characters are focusing on their little personal vendettas when the end of the world is coming up.

 

Curious as to what what characters you are referring to when you say "all"?

[muddasssir]

Thank you Morden after opposing me you finally see my point. Queen has really gained nothing so to speak. She gained a province in name only, which she had in name only before. Mr Ares she did not appoint a lord. She just ratified the lord they had selected for themselves. As for influence in mayener and Ghealdan. They would have what 3000 to 5000 soldiers between them? Practically next to no political influence that will shrink even further in Post TG world. Funny thing is that she knew all of these things and she was still blustering why shouldn't I hang you. Come on man we all know that she was standing on thin ice if she had invaded TR. She would have most probably lost as Perrin's Ashaman would have brought aid from Rand and even Eggy would not have stood aside. She would have ordered Elayne to pull her troops back and she would have obeyed as she has to as she is an aes sedai. Also, please do not insult my intelligence by suggesting that she could have ignored that order as it was Andor's internal affair. We have all seen that WT refuses to accept this argument. Therefore there was no way that she could have enforced her own writ in TR and she could have done it by just being reasonable. Of course she is one of the power puff girls so it is unreasonable to presume anything even remotely reasonable where they are concerned

[David Selig]

Thank you Morden after opposing me you finally see my point. Queen has really gained nothing so to speak. She gained a province in name only, which she had in name only before. Mr Ares she did not appoint a lord. She just ratified the lord they had selected for themselves.

What about Rand?

 

As for influence in mayener and Ghealdan. They would have what 3000 to 5000 soldiers between them? Practically next to no political influence that will shrink even further in Post TG world.

Ghealdan is a decent sized country with some large cities. Surely it can provide way more soldiers. Didn't Perrin just recruit many thousands from there without even trying much?

 

even Eggy would not have stood aside. She would have ordered Elayne to pull her troops back and she would have obeyed as she has to as she is an aes sedai. Also, please do not insult my intelligence by suggesting that she could have ignored that order as it was Andor's internal affair. We have all seen that WT refuses to accept this argument.

Of course Elayne could have ignored it. She's stated her intent of not giving the Wite Tower over Andor even tough she's an Aes Sedai, You think Egwene would start a war against her if she refuses? The Hall probably won't allow Egwene to get involved anyway.

[Mr Ares]

Thank you Morden after opposing me you finally see my point. Queen has really gained nothing so to speak. She gained a province in name only, which she had in name only before. Mr Ares she did not appoint a lord. She just ratified the lord they had selected for themselves.

Perrin is the Steward of the TR. Rand is the Lord. Rand is the father of Elayne's children. So Elayne's children are next in line to rule the TR. If the next "High Lord/Lady" of the TR is one and the same person as the Queen of Andor, then the special status of the region is neither here nor there - the terms could be renegotiated unilaterally. Further, they now pay taxes where they didn't before, and accept that they are now Andoran citizens, albeit ones in a province with a degree of autonomy. Compare to before, where they didn't accept status as Andoran citizens and didn't pay taxes. So they have taken a distinct step towards integration, and one away from full independence.

As for influence in mayener and Ghealdan. They would have what 3000 to 5000 soldiers between them? Practically next to no political influence that will shrink even further in Post TG world.

Mayene is only a city state, and is certainly a minor power on the world stage. Ghealdan is a fairly significant country - while it has been in chaos recently due to the Prophet, that is not a state that will last forever. Alliance with Ghealdan helps secure Andor's borders (the only non-allied nation that she shares a border with is Murandy), and makes Elayne effectively one of the most powerful people on the continent - Rand, Tuon, and possibly Egwene are really the only people with clout similar to hers once the alliance is in place. She controls Andor and Cairhien, with Saldaea, Ghealdan and Mayene as allies. And the Kin. In other words. That she controls two of the biggest nations in the alliance only increases her power - she is the dominant partner. Militarily, economically, and politically, she has a formidable bloc behind her.

Funny thing is that she knew all of these things and she was still blustering why shouldn't I hang you. Come on man we all know that she was standing on thin ice if she had invaded TR. She would have most probably lost as Perrin's Ashaman would have brought aid from Rand and even Eggy would not have stood aside. She would have ordered Elayne to pull her troops back and she would have obeyed as she has to as she is an aes sedai. Also, please do not insult my intelligence by suggesting that she could have ignored that order as it was Andor's internal affair. We have all seen that WT refuses to accept this argument.

What could the WT do? Remember, the TR is not a huge place - it is four villages and a bunch of farms. No real towns as yet, certainly no cities. How long do you really think it would take to carry out a scorched earth campaign, with Traveling? Perrin has two Asha'man, and no guarantee of further help - to drag in further Asha'man is only to draw the ire of the WT. What reason does the WT have to oppose Elayne? Egwene has personal reason, perhaps, but what if the Hall objects? And there are still customs against interfering with another sister's business, not forgetting Elayne's desire to remain independent. And that's assuming anyone could respond in time - if she really wanted to crush them, she could wipe those villages off the map within a week, and most of the farms as well. Savage, brutal and unnecessary, not to mention wholly out of character, but if we are talking solely about what is militarily possible Elayne could kill them all in a short space of time and be back home, and it would be too late for anyone to stop her because most of them would be dead before anyone even knew. Doing it is a bad idea, but not for the reasons you are listing.

[Suttree]

The TR will intermarry with Elayne's house if they can persuade their children to marry. This gives Perrins house which will remain constantly the highest ranking noble in Andor outside of the Queen...

 

Rand is the High Lord, Perrin merely the Steward. It remains to be seen whether Rand will ever claim his seat however.